Uh oh! Bose & Wilkins?

[fauzigarib]

Hey all,

Interesting thread going on at the AVS forums... Most about McIntosh, but there are a few mentions about B&W and how the diamond tweeter is completely a marketing gimmick to reel in the rich!

The last post:
In my first job as a thin-film engineer I grew CVD diamond films for a living and although they have great tribological, mechanical, electrical and thermal properties, I am not convinced they are any good for tweeters. From a mechanical stiffness standpoint they are harder than anything else on this planet (aluminum, titanium etc) so if anything they will be more 'analytical' sounding. From a strenght-to-weight ratio point they are the best and hence would have the most extended response (>40KHz). But given the fact that most humans can't hear beyond 15-18KHz, its pointless to have a response that goes anything beyond that. So, IMHO, the 'diamond tweeter' is just a marketing shaft given to the unscrupulous consumer with big bucks.

The link:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=704521&page=1&pp=30

Check it out... see what you think.

Fauzi

[Andrew M Ward]

Hey all,

Interesting thread going on at the AVS forums... Most about McIntosh, but there are a few mentions about B&W and how the diamond tweeter is completely a marketing gimmick to reel in the rich!

The last post:
In my first job as a thin-film engineer I grew CVD diamond films for a living and although they have great tribological, mechanical, electrical and thermal properties, I am not convinced they are any good for tweeters. From a mechanical stiffness standpoint they are harder than anything else on this planet (aluminum, titanium etc) so if anything they will be more 'analytical' sounding. From a strenght-to-weight ratio point they are the best and hence would have the most extended response (>40KHz). But given the fact that most humans can't hear beyond 15-18KHz, its pointless to have a response that goes anything beyond that. So, IMHO, the 'diamond tweeter' is just a marketing shaft given to the unscrupulous consumer with big bucks.

The link:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=704521&page=1&pp=30

Check it out... see what you think.

Fauzi

Have you heard a diamond tweeter?
Have you heard a Beryllium tweeter?

I have many times, and they are dramatically better... so I don't understand the "gimmick" part? is Beryllium a gimmick too, or just Diamond?

If so why aren't you throwing JM Labs under the bus too?

I missunderstood, that's not your quote?

[sikoniko]

Hey all,

Interesting thread going on at the AVS forums... Most about McIntosh, but there are a few mentions about B&W and how the diamond tweeter is completely a marketing gimmick to reel in the rich!

The last post:
In my first job as a thin-film engineer I grew CVD diamond films for a living and although they have great tribological, mechanical, electrical and thermal properties, I am not convinced they are any good for tweeters. From a mechanical stiffness standpoint they are harder than anything else on this planet (aluminum, titanium etc) so if anything they will be more 'analytical' sounding. From a strenght-to-weight ratio point they are the best and hence would have the most extended response (>40KHz). But given the fact that most humans can't hear beyond 15-18KHz, its pointless to have a response that goes anything beyond that. So, IMHO, the 'diamond tweeter' is just a marketing shaft given to the unscrupulous consumer with big bucks.

The link:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=704521&page=1&pp=30

Check it out... see what you think.

Fauzi

It kind of like a video game. Who cares that the new video cards can play quake 3 with a fps of 200 at 1920? Well, it allows for more detail and effects the overall performace, even though 30 fps is all we can see.

[audioqueso]

AVS speculates too much. That's why I don't go there anymore.

[sg2]

While this guy is perfectly right on the fact that a diamond film is the best possible mass/stiffness ratio material, and that it is very costlty, he obviously hasn't understood what the b&w point was to move to diamond : move the resonant frequency of the tweeter, above 2x the audio bandwidth.

Look at the theory about that in the b&w litterature, you'll understand this is key to get rid of sybillances that affect most other "high bandwidth" tweeters. Listen to the 80xD's, you get it right away.

Regards,
--
Stéphane

[PavelL]

I have a question - how does one listen to a diaphragm the tweeter is made of? Do magnets, crossover components & configuration NOT affect the overall sound that spks produce? IMHO B&W did a great job with the new series. So did the marketing team that addressed the general public with the "diamond campaign".
Having said that here is some excerpts from 800D development paper: "At this stage the detail as to why the diamond sounds better than the aluminium tweeter is not clear. Whilst we can say the diamond’s response is more perfect in the sense it is closer to an infinitely rigid tweeter (and this is quite compelling), the actual reason in terms of factors we normally consider, such as phase, timing etc is not clear. Are the relatively small differences more significant than established wisdom would suggest or are we looking in the wrong direction? Could, for example, the perceived improvement in performance be something to do with radial modes? Experiments will continue." And this leaves me wondering as to how much marketing there really is... B&W people may or may not be entirely sure if they are headed in the right direction technically speaking, but something is telling me the new series with the new $$$tag was the right direction in the first place :W

[Alloroc]

AVS speculates too much. That's why I don't go there anymore.

Ditto. 'nuff said....

V.

[jericho]

I'd say just take a listen to those 8XXD's compared with the others, side by side, and trust yours ears.Don't look at them and I'm sure 9 of 10 will chose the D series!!!

[wb2fcr]

Typical postings by "Alimentall" or John over at AVS. He's a well know B&W hater. He jumps into ANY B&W thread just to bash them.

Though I enjoy reading the threads, especially when someone who knows speakers comes in and disproves John's biased 'facts'.

[PavelL]

Typical postings by "Alimentall" or John over at AVS. He's a well know B&W hater. He jumps into ANY B&W thread just to bash them.

Though I enjoy reading the threads, especially when someone who knows speakers comes in and disproves John's biased 'facts'.

The guy is just PATHETIC!!! He goes on and on in his bashing. B&W must be VERY good if the ONLY criticism comes from such typos like Alimental...

[fauzigarib]

What's objectively good?!?!

Guys,

After reading that thread on AVS, I really got to thinking... You see, to me, B&W, especially with the diamond series, was (actually, still IS) the end all be all of speakers. I actually really thought, that no matter how much marketing / advertising other companies put into their products, B&W still shines in the audiophile ear as a product that is always striving for high fidelity of music... and I, naively perhaps, thought this to be a universally accepted fact.

However, I guess it's not nearly universal. In fact, I can very easily see a Bose-like argument that someone could concoct for these speakers. So then I got to thinking... and when I get to thinking, as my wife says... well, it's usually not a good thing!

Anyways, two things come to my mind from having read this and other posts on some forums regarding B&W.

Firstly, are there ANY components (speakers, amps, pres, whatever) out there that are UNIVERSALLY accepted as being "good." Whatever the criteria, whatever the standards.. Everyone knows them as being, well... "good."

I'm probably going to convert this into another thread, so perhaps more responses can go there...

But the other, more substantial thing is this: I assumet that in today's day and age, audio technology is quite universally "understood." By that, I mean that whether you are a main stream, mass producing mini component designer like Pioneer, or a middle of the road amp maker (like Nad), or an ultra high end producer like ML... I would go out on a limb to say that, within each of those particular segments, the products' performances are so close that I can't understand the vehemence with which some people support their choices.

Case in point: Take the B&W 802D, and Focal's Electra Be. Both companies have spent tons of money on researching and developing their own tweeters from unique materials, and each company puts out a product that has a significant pride of ownership associated with it. But if someone were to tell me that B&W's 802D "blows the Electras out of the water," I would certainly be hard pressed to not only believe them, but hold their opinon in high regard.

On this forum, Rotel ends up being a real such example... repeatedly. I think Rotel makes very good product. I have their 5 channel amp in my system. But at the same price point, I'm sure that I could find perhaps 10 different products / companies that would make a very comparable product... and this is not counting the used market in the equation.

So, my question is this: What makes a person so darn brand loyal, so as to believe wholeheartedly that there just is simply no product in the running with the brand that they are loyal to?

Hmmm... I think entire marketing majors at most universities are probably based around this question, no?



Fauzi

[dknightd]

I maybe niave, but I think b&w (and bose for that matter) markets what they think sounds good. It is up to the consumer to decide what they think sounds the best for the money spent. We all have different ears, and different wants, and different budgets. All sucessfull companies are part good product, and part good marketing. Of course we are all exposed to marketing - the trick is to buy what you like with the money you have and use marketing to let you know what is out there. Of course this easier said than done. . . I didn't read the thread. But John/Amital reputation is known. He sells NHT, he doesn't like B&W much. When pressed he will admit B&W are not too bad. He prefers and sells another brand. That is fine. I'm not a brand guy, I just buy what sounds best to me with the money I have and with what I can listen to. This time B&w won (703's) but next time it may be different. As long as you like what you have don't worry about what other people think. When they leave it doesn't matter, you still have what you like.

[Andrew M Ward]

I would go out on a limb to say that, within each of those particular segments, the products' performances are so close that I can't understand the vehemence with which some people support their choices.

Case in point: Take the B&W 802D, and Focal's Electra Be.

So, my question is this: What makes a person so darn brand loyal, so as to believe wholeheartedly that there just is simply no product in the running with the brand that they are loyal to?

Fauzi

Beautiful post Fauzi
So many fascinating ways to proceed on this topic...

Patriotism slowly morphs into Nationalism, which slowly morphs into Fascism... we see this happening with electronics too.

The Patriotic enthusiastic new gear owner through time changes into a loyal Nationalist fearlessly defending the borders that define his product while bashing other product lines... but it does not stop there, eventually they become completely a slave to their ideas and we now have a

"Gear fascist"

This process can take years (even decades)

This new creature has difficulty even talking about other products as valid, not to mention a flat-out-hatred for competitive same-class gear.

Sometimes this individual will take the form of a devout "hater"

The gear fascist that becomes a "hater" will frequently disguise their whereabouts and conceal their identity, because in their hearts (blackened and broken as they are) they still know, like Jeckle and Hyde that this monster that consumes them is shameful and works to destroy them from within.

Effectively stealing from them what once was their joy and happiness

Keeping in mind that the death of Joy and happiness is not the death of passion, these gear fascist are extremely passionate both in their hatred and in their devotion... it's an amazing dilemma 8)

[Jesse111]

Watch the B&W DVD "A Sound Experience" and see the truth. Yes there is a difference. Only those unfortunate, jealous non diamond, non B&W folks say silly things like that. We forgive them because we feel sorry for them. :B

[fauzigarib]

The Patriotic enthusiastic new gear owner through time changes into a loyal Nationalist fearlessly defending the borders that define his product while bashing other product lines... but it does not stop there, eventually they become completely a slave to their ideas and we now have a

"Gear fascist"

Tooooooo funny!!!! Gear Fascist! :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

Wasn't there a Seinfeld episode about this too?

Fauzi

[bigburner]

Beautiful post Fauzi
So many fascinating ways to proceed on this topic...

Patriotism slowly morphs into Nationalism, which slowly morphs into Fascism... we see this happening with electronics too.

The Patriotic enthusiastic new gear owner through time changes into a loyal Nationalist fearlessly defending the borders that define his product while bashing other product lines... but it does not stop there, eventually they become completely a slave to their ideas and we now have a

"Gear fascist"

This process can take years (even decades)

This new creature has difficulty even talking about other products as valid, not to mention a flat-out-hatred for competitive same-class gear.

Sometimes this individual will take the form of a devout "hater"

The gear fascist that becomes a "hater" will frequently disguise their whereabouts and conceal their identity, because in their hearts (blackened and broken as they are) they still know, like Jeckle and Hyde that this monster that consumes them is shameful and works to destroy them from within.

Effectively stealing from them what once was their joy and happiness

Keeping in mind that the death of Joy and happiness is not the death of passion, these gear fascist are extremely passionate both in their hatred and in their devotion... it's an amazing dilemma 8)

That's so profound Andrew that I'm lost for words... so I'll post an old urban myth instead...

HELL EXPLAINED BY A CHEMISTRY STUDENT

The following is an actual question given on a University of Washington chemistry mid-term.

The answer by one student was so "profound" that the professor shared it with colleagues, via the Internet, which is, of course, why we now have the pleasure of enjoying it as well:

Bonus Question: Is Hell exothermic (gives off heat) or endothermic (absorbs heat)?

Most of the students wrote proofs of their beliefs using Boyle's Law (gas cools when it expands and heats when it is compressed) or some variant. One student, however, wrote the following:

First, we need to know how the mass of Hell is changing in time. So we need to know the rate at which souls are moving into Hell and the rate at which they are leaving. I think that we can safely assume that once a soul gets to Hell, it will not leave. Therefore, no souls are leaving. As for how many souls are entering Hell, let's look at the different religions that exist in the world today.

Most of these religions state that if you are not a member of their religion, you will go to Hell. Since there is more than one of these religions and since people do not belong to more than one religion, we can project that all souls go to Hell. With birth and death rates as they are, we can expect the number of souls in Hell to increase exponentially.

Now, we look at the rate of change of the volume in Hell because Boyle's Law states that in order for the temperature and pressure in Hell to stay the same, the volume of Hell has to expand proportionately as souls are added. This gives two possibilities:
1. If Hell is expanding at a slower rate than the rate at which souls enter Hell, then the temperature and pressure in Hell will increase until all Hell breaks loose.
2. If Hell is expanding at a rate faster than the increase of souls in Hell, then the temperature and pressure will drop until Hell freezes over.

So which is it?

If we accept the postulate given to me by Teresa during my Freshman year that, "It will be a cold day in Hell before I sleep with you," and take into account the fact that I slept with her last night, then number two must be true, and thus I am sure that Hell is exothermic and has already frozen over. The corollary of this theory is that since Hell has frozen over, it follows that it is not accepting any more souls and is therefore, extinct......leaving only Heaven, thereby proving the existence of a divine being which explains why, last night, Teresa kept shouting "Oh my God."

THIS STUDENT RECEIVED THE ONLY "A".

[chinets]

RELAX FAUZI!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

JUST TRUST YOUR EARS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! SIMPLE AS THAT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

800 this or 200 that speakers and xxx gear. Who cares, because at the end of the day, it is you who will be listening to your eguipment etc.. NOT US!!!!!!!!!!!! Capiche!!

all this is FOR YOUR EARS ONLY!!!!!!!

Cheers!!!!

[Aldo]

You said that there is no point in reproducing frequencies you just can't hear, So what about your Bose subwoofer, half the frequency it reproduce you can't hear! But you can feal it (well I suposed) Now if you can't hear any diference with the dimond tweeter why even bother to be in this forum, I'm shure you can't hear the diference between an electric guitar and your kitchens blender turn on!

[chinets]

Ouch, ALDO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I think that was just below "the Fauzi belt " !!!!!!!

Have a NICE DAY Guys!!

[ChrisssB]

Well an explanation could be that even though we can’t hear frequencies above 20 kHz, we certainly CAN hear their harmonics downwards (that makes sense to me).
I’ve even read somewhere that those high frequencies (above 20 kHz) do vibrate the skeleton structure of our heads and they produce a certain “feeling”. That does exist when we hear live a violin and its missed when we hear the same violin through a system that can’t produce the spectrum above 20 kHz, and so it sounds unnatural.

[Aldo]

Three years ago I had a noise in one of my ears then I went to see the doctor, It took out a sort of U metal pieces in various sizes, when he hit the biger ones or the most thin ones I could not hear anything, then he put them tuching my nose bone, and what do you think happened... I hear a treamendus noise at low freq. with the fat one and a high pitch with the most thin one. So when we cannot tell if we hear something that does not mean it isn't there and that our senses doesn't receive it! The same happend with our eyes, how many times you feel that the guy in the next car is watching you? Well the thing is that our eyes have a 270 grades vision but our brain only works with about 180. BUT you feel him watching you and when you turn your head he is!

[caleb]

Three years ago I had a noise in one of my ears then I went to see the doctor, It took out a sort of U metal pieces in various sizes, when he hit the biger ones or the most thin ones I could not hear anything, then he put them tuching my nose bone, and what do you think happened... I hear a treamendus noise at low freq. with the fat one and a high pitch with the most thin one. So when we cannot tell if we hear something that does not mean it isn't there and that our senses doesn't receive it! The same happend with our eyes, how many times you feel that the guy in the next car is watching you? Well the thing is that our eyes have a 270 grades vision but our brain only works with about 180. BUT you feel him watching you and when you turn your head he is!

I think you are refering to tuning forks, and I have also experienced this where you sometines cannot hear the notes from the forks, but you do experience the sound when placed on your skull.

[Kal Rubinson]

You are describing the difference between air-conducted and bone-conducted sound and that difference is often used clinically to detect conduction deficits associated with middle-ear problems. The two responses have different curves but that's not what's usually being tested with tuning forks.

Kal

[Sim reality]

I think this comes back to sg2 point in the B&W literature... They were looking for a problem to solve... The problem was that tweeters started to react non-linearly well before 20 Khz even when technically the break up frequency is +22 KHz.

So they modelled how a "perfect speaker" should perform, this surprisingly lead to the realization that the "perfect speaker" is not linear (IE: it starts to "roll off" as the frequecy increases logarithmically).

So now they had a problem, so they started to work on a solution... and the diamond tweeter was born.

What I find odd is people would dismiss this outright as "marketing hype"... It would simular to saying that the use of titanium in sport car engines is "marketing hype"... It's based on perfectly good engineering principles even if no-one redlines their $200 000 race car...

[Aldo]

Kal..Thanks! Sim... I agree! Mr. Fauzi is making big pissing us off! here and in every post he puts!
Have fun!

[ac81017]

Brand loyal

Guys,

After reading that thread on AVS, I really got to thinking... You see, to me, B&W, especially with the diamond series, was (actually, still IS) the end all be all of speakers. I actually really thought, that no matter how much marketing / advertising other companies put into their products, B&W still shines in the audiophile ear as a product that is always striving for high fidelity of music... and I, naively perhaps, thought this to be a universally accepted fact.

However, I guess it's not nearly universal. In fact, I can very easily see a Bose-like argument that someone could concoct for these speakers. So then I got to thinking... and when I get to thinking, as my wife says... well, it's usually not a good thing!

Anyways, two things come to my mind from having read this and other posts on some forums regarding B&W.

Firstly, are there ANY components (speakers, amps, pres, whatever) out there that are UNIVERSALLY accepted as being "good." Whatever the criteria, whatever the standards.. Everyone knows them as being, well... "good."

I'm probably going to convert this into another thread, so perhaps more responses can go there...

But the other, more substantial thing is this: I assumet that in today's day and age, audio technology is quite universally "understood." By that, I mean that whether you are a main stream, mass producing mini component designer like Pioneer, or a middle of the road amp maker (like Nad), or an ultra high end producer like ML... I would go out on a limb to say that, within each of those particular segments, the products' performances are so close that I can't understand the vehemence with which some people support their choices.

Case in point: Take the B&W 802D, and Focal's Electra Be. Both companies have spent tons of money on researching and developing their own tweeters from unique materials, and each company puts out a product that has a significant pride of ownership associated with it. But if someone were to tell me that B&W's 802D "blows the Electras out of the water," I would certainly be hard pressed to not only believe them, but hold their opinon in high regard.

On this forum, Rotel ends up being a real such example... repeatedly. I think Rotel makes very good product. I have their 5 channel amp in my system. But at the same price point, I'm sure that I could find perhaps 10 different products / companies that would make a very comparable product... and this is not counting the used market in the equation.

So, my question is this: What makes a person so darn brand loyal, so as to believe wholeheartedly that there just is simply no product in the running with the brand that they are loyal to?

Hmmm... I think entire marketing majors at most universities are probably based around this question, no?



Fauzi

I don´t care what any one says when it comes to speakers!! Rule number one, it´s your own ears that decide! you can´t hear inside my head, and I can´t hear through your ears! I have B&W 602s3, because that´s all I could afford! I couldn´t find anything better in that price range! I was even blind folded when I tested 10 pairs of speakers! sounds a little crazy! I was very very brand loyal! Ok, I´ll be onest, I was even bose loyal!! I beg for mercy!! ;x(

You have made so very intersting points though!! :T

Have a nice day!

[chinets]

Aldo, You are right!!!!! You finally drove the last nail Into Fauzi's coffin!!!! Thank God someone else realized this scenario besides me!!!

Fauzi should take a long break off this forum, and everyone will be back to normal!!!!

Let us put a thread out there and Vote whether Fauzi should be legible for this forum or NOT?? he is Pissing the hell out of everyone!!
Ha Ha Ha !!!!!!!!!!!!!!( Just Kidding)!!! But, Not a BAD idea either!!

Have fun guys,
Cheers!!!!!!!

[Juan Cortez]

I would like to add my 2cents into this. I do have an account on the AVS form and I agree alot of the posters there are assuming to much. they have flame wars on the stupidest things its unreal. The problem i find is that alot of people, are basing their decision on what to buy and what sounds good on what other people say, instead of going out and listening for them selfs they just do what the majority of people do. B&W is a fantastic brand and imo they are not like Bose other than the fact these are two large companies. I also find that this has started when ID brands hit the market. I myself do not have anything against ID brands they make very very good products at very affordable prices, but I do have a problem with people who go " buy this brand its the best its cheaper and brands like B&W, Paradigm, JM Labs and so on are a waste of money. Alot of these assumptions come from people who probably never heard these brands and are saying this because thats what others are saying. If you actually look how forums have changed over the last few years, its gone from simple suggestions and going out to listen and making your own decision to buying what others tell you to buy. B&W didn't get to where they are today by making crappy speakers. As for marketing well i hate to say it but all speaker manufactures do marketing so to me thats a poor defense to support that the speakers are bad, and usually when you see people start talking about marketing its usually because they have been proven wrong and that is all they have left to say. The key thing is to go out and listen for yourself and decided for your self. I'm sure if I asked you all here why you bought your B&W's was because of the fact that they sounded the best to you, and that is the key principle.

Enjoy your B&W's everyone these are trully works of art :T

[Aldo]

Dear Juan:
I live in Mexico, here the best you can audition in a store is Bose and in Price Club!
I buy my first B&W without audition ANY B&W product.
I use forums like this one to see what other people have to say about B&W and also other brands, because if I want marketing to make my mind, I will go out and buy the Stereophile, but here, I can find the true, what people as me, have to say about the products they bought!
I made some bad buys and I always tell everyone here about them, like with my 12K Halcro porcessor!
So I find very helpfull all opinions in this forum and I thank you all for your advise!

[Juan Cortez]

Aldo

I agree, I don't think all opinions are bad, what i was referring to mostly was the ones who say bad things about brands yet they haven't heard it. I agree for some people as in your case its very hard to get brands like B&W and to get a set up you are usually buying blind. I'm sorry if i offended anyone, i was trying to imply that before you start stating bad things about a brand that some listening on your part must be done.