Are 803D too good for me?

[boss]

This is my listening environment. Is is too small for 803D (ceiling height is 10 feet)

Or, is the orientation not friendly to good sound imaging? ;x( ;x( ;x(

[EastCoaster]

This is my listening environment. Is is too small for 803D (ceiling height is 10 feet)

Or, is the orientation not friendly to good sound imaging? ;x( ;x( ;x(

From the distances plotted in your diagram, it doesn't look like you're sitting the same distance away from the speakers, as the distance between them... (i.e., the "triangle") I have roughly the same feet to work with as you do, and decided that an 803 (or even 804) would be too overwhelming (although cost for five units was also a factor). I went with 805s. Interestingly, when I discussed this with B&W support on the phone, the tech agreed with me.

[boss]

EastCoaster

The sketch was not scaled. In fact I can form the 'triangle'

That doesn't solve the fundamental problem: room perhaps too small.

Yesterday I stepped into a hi-fi dealers audition room, 18x18 feet square.

He hooked up a pair of Paradigm Reference Studio 20 powered by a tube system 40W PrimaLuna Prologue Five with Prologue Three pre. He spinned vinyl from the 70s. The sound was sooooo 'real' that I almost cried.

Then I have second thought on placing my order for a pair of 803D!

[sikoniko]

My room is 14 ft wide by 17.5 ft deep. I have a pair of 802N's and it sounds great. Why not use the 14ft wall?

[boss]

What really shocked me was that the costs of 2 bookshelves, the stand, the amp and the pre cost less than half the price of the 803D.

[boss]

Sikoniko

The whole 14 feet is a sliding glass door leading to the balcony. :M

[EastCoaster]

He hooked up a pair of Paradigm Reference Studio 20 powered by a tube system 40W PrimaLuna Prologue Five with Prologue Three pre. He spinned vinyl from the 70s. The sound was sooooo 'real' that I almost cried.

Then I have second thought on placing my order for a pair of 803D!

Maybe that's the system for you then? :T

[Jesse111]

EastCoaster

The sketch was not scaled. In fact I can form the 'triangle'

That doesn't solve the fundamental problem: room perhaps too small.

Yesterday I stepped into a hi-fi dealers audition room, 18x18 feet square.

He hooked up a pair of Paradigm Reference Studio 20 powered by a tube system 40W PrimaLuna Prologue Five with Prologue Three pre. He spinned vinyl from the 70s. The sound was sooooo 'real' that I almost cried.

Then I have second thought on placing my order for a pair of 803D!

How long did you audition that setup? Did you audition any of your familiar favorite CD's? It may truly be the best for you but sometimes the WOW factor in a dealer store with a short audition can be deceiving. Sometimes that WOW can translate to fatigue and tonal exaggeration over time. That's just a thought for caution's sake. But, the B&W is so listenable and yet detailed and articulate it's hard to imagine doing much better. But it's all a matter of taste.

Is it possible to turn your listening position 90 degrees to the right?

[jim777]

Should be fine. My room is a little smaller than that, but then I "only" have 703's

[Jesse111]

Should be fine. My room is a little smaller than that, but then I "only" have 703's

You also have Mac gear. Would that be considered cheating? 8)

[Eliav]

This is my listening environment. Is is too small for 803D (ceiling height is 10 feet)

Or, is the orientation not friendly to good sound imaging? ;x( ;x( ;x(

Hi
My room dimensions are 20'x15'. I used to have 803s which sounded great. I had some similar reservations whether to upgrade to 802d. I eventually got them and they sound great, no looking back. it really depends much on your electronics (amp/pre/etc.) and room acoustic treatment. bottom line, IMHO you should be fine with the 803d.
Eliav

[boss]

Jesse111,

Yes, there's WOW factor indeed. Besides, I am very apprehensive of tubes, generally speaking.


Jim777 / Eliav,

Size really doesn't matter?
(How I wished I could re-orientate the sitting position!)

People,

Can you recommend any powerful yet value-for-money AMP (200W dual-mono) that I can consider (for driving the 803D?)?

[RobP]

Boss, I auditioned the 803D's several times in a room that was smaller than yours and they sounded wonderful, the room had brick along the front wall and a big window in one corner, the room did have some acoustical treatment to help deal with those hurdles. If you can to do the same with your room then the 803d's would be a fine choice.
As far as an amp goes, what is your budget? If you are not against buying pre-owned equipment you can pick up an older Classe CA-201 or maybe a CA-301 for the price of a new amplifier of less quality.

[boss]

Soundgravy

Thanks for the info. Right-hand-side of the sitting position (that 14 feet and all) is a sliding glass door which is nicely curtained (serves as some sort of acoustic treatment I hoped).

My budget for the amp is $4K. But I'll keep an eye on CLASSE.

[boss]

Jim777

Aaaaa... you are the McMann.

I auditioned Mc252+C45 today (not hooked up to any B&W though)

Are they compatible with 803D?

[jim777]

I would recommend a C220/MC402 combo for the 803D's. The 402 is smoother than the 252 and the C220 tube pre gives you tube sound without tube problems (small signal tubes will last 20years or more).

For the room size I would say that the smaller the room, the higher the room mode frequencies are. With a bigger speaker, that goes lower in frequency, well the two will interact more. However, it still should sound great; it's not like if you had a 8*8*12 feet room.

[boss]

Thanks Jim777


Guess I'll embark on the 3-year upgrade road map soon!

First thing first I'll get the 803D. For the first year I'll live with the less than optimal all-Rotel gear.

The next item will be a Mc-pre or a Meridian pre,

Then a Linn CDP

Then the amp.

How does it look?

[jim777]

I have the McIntosh MCD201 2-channel SACD/CD player. It sounds great! Especially with a C220 that I don't have yet. Pretty much like you, I hope to upgrade my 703's to 803D's or 802D's and my MA6500 to a C220/MC402 combo or C220/MC501 trio if I get lucky

[gerardhn]

Boss,

My physical feeling feeling says..
your room is not optimal.
But Iám not an acoustic expert.
What does your dealer say about it???
Ask for try-hearing at home....before your walls go resonating

[Grasynoll]

Take your time. I've made the mistake of speakers too big for the room

[boss]

Grasynoll

Yes, that's why I have been holding off the purchase.......

Home auditioning service is not available here....

Thanks for reminding me.

[jim777]

Take your time. I've made the mistake of speakers too big for the room

What issues do you have? What room size do you have?

[Jesse111]

I owned a pair of 803N for about a year. Very tight, articulate speaker. I personally wouldn't consider anything less than the 803D. But I'm sure the 804D would be excellent as well. Definately wouldn't go below that in my opinion.

[boss]

Jesse111

Are yours Nautilus 803? Specs-wise is it more like 803D or 803S? Because of my budget I might have to go for 803S. (The difference will contribute directly to a McIntosh AMP+PRE budget )

Any comment please?

[William]

I owned a pair of 803N for about a year. Very tight, articulate speaker. I personally wouldn't consider anything less than the 803D. But I'm sure the 804D would be excellent as well. Definately wouldn't go below that in my opinion.

There are no 804D's. Is this a new model comming out?

[William]

Jesse111

Are yours Nautilus 803? Specs-wise is it more like 803D or 803S? Because of my budget I might have to go for 803S. (The difference will contribute directly to a McIntosh AMP+PRE budget )

Any comment please?

The 803S is the same as the 803 Nautilus except the woofers are now Rohacell.

[gerardhn]

boss,
Iám surprized that you dont have the possibilitie to home audition.
Here, in the Netherlands, every Nautilus dealer (= somewhat else than selling B&W speakers) has to be autorized. They will give you the possibility to do that for a pair of 8000€$ speakers. They will also guide with some advice. These guys do generally have experience in this topic.
I mean the true higend sellers.... with a hard for sound. Not the 23 year salesman who also sells pioneer dvd players for 99 €$.

[boss]

gerardhn

I am not at all pleased with the absence of highend service for highend products in this part of the world here. :M


William

Thanks. That's one important parameter in my decision making formula.

[jim777]

Jesse111

Are yours Nautilus 803? Specs-wise is it more like 803D or 803S? Because of my budget I might have to go for 803S. (The difference will contribute directly to a McIntosh AMP+PRE budget )

Any comment please?

Well 803S's with a McIntosh MCD201, C220 & MC252 setup would sure give you a preview of heaven

[boss]

Jim777

Have you ever tried a tube pre+amp setup to drive B&W 800 series?

[Eliav]

I Heard the 802d and 805s with Mcintosh tube power and tube pre. to my ears, it sounded great, warm, full and authorative. I was comparing at that time the Rotel 1095 power amplifier Vs 'higher end" stuff to drive the 800 series,(guess which sounded better... :W )
Sorry, don't remeber the Mcintosh model numbers.
Eliav

[boss]

..... to drive the 800 series,(guess which sounded better... :W )
Sorry, don't remeber the Mcintosh model numbers.
Eliav

Don't tell me it's Rotel 8)

Eliav / Jim777

I know nothing about tube. How can a less than 50W tube amp drive such gigante as the 800's?

[chowhwk]

This is my listening environment. Is is too small for 803D (ceiling height is 10 feet)

Or, is the orientation not friendly to good sound imaging? ;x( ;x( ;x(

I have seen many people using 803 in rooms similar or even smaller. You need to select your amplifier and cables carefully if you are concerned about boomy bass.

A fast, crisp solid state amplifier could be the order of the day.

[boss]

chowhwk

Thanks for the info.

Boomy bass has never been an issue. My current JBL L112 (12" woofers) are resting on Soundcare feet and the bass is pretty solid.

Now I am using Rotel RB-1080 and may move to McIntosh MC252 (eventually).

[jim777]

Jim777

Have you ever tried a tube pre+amp setup to drive B&W 800 series?

I listened a few times to a MCD201, C220, MC275 and 802D setup. Each time I was blown away. The MC275 is rated 75W but is more around 100W. Since B&W's are efficient (even the big ones), the MC275 goes real far unless loud heavy metal or stuff like that is your thing. This setup has a huge fun factor, smile on your face, foot tapping; you know what I mean. This setup, with B&W's, is also the kind of setup that can give you a little tear once in a while

[boss]

Jim777

I should try to organise an audition of an all-tube system driving BigMAMA!!

[jim777]

Jim777

I should try to organise an audition of an all-tube system driving BigMAMA!!

You should, but know that the MCD201 (that has a preamp/headphone amp inside) direct into the MC275 didn't sound too much likes tubes to me. The C220 is the masterpiece I guess. What I'm trying to say, is that you might get the sound you want with a C220 and a SS amp like the MC402 (that is also smooth by the way).

B&W are considered by many as the best match to McIntosh electronics, even though mac also makes speakers.

[boss]

Jim777

Are you saying that I can use MCD201+MC402 WITHOUT a pre?

Then I can save the money from buying a C46 and spend it on 803D?

[jim777]

You can begin like that if you don't have any other sources (the 201 has no inputs). The MCD201 has a pre-amp inside (that I only use for it's great headphone output). Whether you like the sound of it or not is another story; I prefer the C220 to the MCD201's pre, big difference there. My dealer sold a MCD201+MC402+803D kit not too long ago so some people love it, it might be your thing. The MCD201's pre is very very detailed but might lack some fun-factor (the tap-your-foot thing) without the C220.

[boss]

Jim777


Oooops. I forgot I play DVD sometimes. (Not a multi-channel HT man though)

[jim777]

Yep, just like me. Digital cable and DVD sometimes goes through. If can help your choices, after a lot of listening at my dealer, the 803D+C220+MC402 (+MCD201 I already have) is my dream setup in that price range. Of course everyone would prefer 802D's with a pair of MC501's but that ain't too far from doubling the price tag.

[boss]

Jim777

803S looks like a non-varialble in my roadmap now.

I have decided that if one day I can afford it, I'll go for 802D (minimally). But for now. I'll stay at the top of the S-line instead of the bottom of the D-line.

C46 may suit me better because the Program Equalizer may be beneficial to my less-than-optimal listening environment. (Must admit that I am still apprehensive about anything tube.)

MC406, yes, this is (almost) a must now, Well, almost.

To complete the All-Mc plus B&W setup, I might go for the MCD201 (eventually). (At one point I am contemplating on a LINN IKEMI which is still available new from where I am.

[boss]

Road map half completed:

CDP: Linn Ikemi (Can't resist a good deal on a reputable CDP such as Ikemi - a brand new machine from an authorised distributor at 70% of the original price because it is a discontinued model. 5-year warranty still applies!!)

PRE+AMP: C46+MC402

They are already making my JBL L112 sing!!

To complete the road map, of course, will be a pair of B&W !!!!

Saw a pair of Cherry Nautilus 802 in a 2nd hand hi-fi shop the other day, going at about 40% of the new 802D reatail price. Should I get them, knowing that they are not as efficient as 802D?

Thanks for your opinions!! ;x( ;x( ;x(

[jim777]

To give you an idea, many think that the 803D sounds at least as good as the N802.

I'm jelous of your amp/preamp

[boss]

Hi All

Thank you so much for sharing your experience which helped me focus on the issue.

Now that I am listening for the first time how my 26-year old, no mod JBL L112s sing sooooooo convincingly, the next milestone for my road map is:

803D or 2nd hand N802?

;x( ;x(