Klipschorn v. 802's

[fauzigarib]

Hello all,

I guess this is what it boils down to for me...

For the past many weeks, as can be seen by my posts on this forum, I've been researching B&W and really wanting to get a pair. Started from the 703's and now have more or less convinced myself to get the 802D's...

However, here is my issue:

I have a WONDERFUL (IMHO) 2 channel setup centered around my 1974 Klipschorns with moded / updated crossovers powered by a Mac SS Integrated amp. If you're familiar with the Khorns, you know what I mean when I say... it's bliss each time a fire it up and plug in a nice cd / LP.

I also have an all Klipsch HT setup with old-needing-to-be-replaced speakers... which is where I thought the 703's would fit in. The HT is currently being powered by a Lexicon MC-8 and Rotel separates... My thought was to fit the 703's in here, and eventually upgrade the HT around that pair. Or, alternatively, shift the KHorns into the HT, move my current mains back a step (i.e., mains to sides, sides to rears, and rears to... well, out).

Here's where I started asking you nice folks whether the 703's would sound good with my Mac or not. Of course, then one gets to thinking.. if you're doing just 2 channel, and the 802d's are out there... hey! Why not?!?!?

Trouble is... wherever I put my KHorns and B&W's... I can't justify having such top notch speakers in an HT. I'm sure the dynamics and all are there, but I can spend a TON AND A HALF less and still get similar dynamics, as the mains don't play as crucial a role in HT as the center speaker. At least, this has been my experience...

Plus, there's that pesky little matter of finances... :twisted:

So: Is it worth it to sell my KHorns and replace them with the 802D's in my two channel setup... Yes, this is a B&W forums, but I have seen more honest opinions here than anywhere else (Case in point: The thread about Focal's Electra BE speaker!)... so I'm asking this here.

Of course, there'll be tons of auditioning (unfortunately, in home auditions are not a possibility), so rest assured that your opinions won't be the only deciding factors.. However, they certainly will carry a significant weight! So be nice!

Fauzi

[tboooe]

I hope you dont mind more input from a Bruin...

I totally agree that you dont need such top end end gear for HT. Why cant you combine your HT and 2 ch setup, either centered around the Klipschorn or BW? Is there a reason why you have 2 separate setups for HT and 2 ch? Believe me, if I had it my way I would have a dedicated 2 ch system in a different room but with housing prices the way they are here in the OC, its hard to get a house that size.

Anyway, if you combine your HT and 2 ch you will only have 1 set of speakers. You could have the best of both worlds by getting a 2 ch preamp with bypass so you can have the best 2 ch sound possible while also having the flexibility of doing ht when you like. This could save you at least the cost of one pair of speakers (not to mention cables, AV racks, etc)

Bottom line, keep the speakers that you love more.

[WI Rotel]

By all means feel free to sell the schorns'. Yes, they were a beautiful piece of craft for 1974, but speaker have come quite a long way since then, specifically in the area of dynamics. Unless you only listen to opera, newer topflight speakers will be very significantly superior in sound. I, as you, would also feel sad to part with such a classic but if you can't put them somewhere as a collectors item (for looks rather than sound) I would sell them in a minute for 802D's.

[Karma]

HI fauzi,
Are you not comparing apples and oranges? There is absolutely no relationship between the sound of the two companies. Usually, those that like khorns can't stand the sound of more modern designs. And those who like speakers like B&W do not appreciate the Khorns lack of precision imaging and pressure related distortions. Everybody loves the Khorn bass, which is clean and strong but not especially deep, IF they are setup properly according to the gospel of Paul Klipch (assuming you have the corner horns).

Furthermore, the amp requirements are totally different.

I see this comparison resembling Farrari vs. a 747. Almost not in the same universe.

Personally, I think the khorn's are hopelessly outdated but that's just me.

Sparky

[kurtholz]

but you will also have to upgrade your amps if you go 802D, Rotel doesnt make an amp good enough to power them decently

( i am just baiting you WI Rotel, don't take it, i know you are die hard Rotel fan)

:-)

the Klipsch have seen there day, go for the 802D's, and upgrade the rest as you can

Kurt

[WI Rotel]

but you will also have to upgrade your amps if you go 802D, Rotel doesnt make an amp good enough to power them decently

( i am just baiting you WI Rotel, don't take it, i know you are die hard Rotel fan)

:-)

the Klipsch have seen there day, go for the 802D's, and upgrade the rest as you can

Kurt

:wedgie:

[fauzigarib]

My poor babies!

Mean!!! All of you!!! Mean mean mean!!!! 8O 8O 8O

Tboooe - Ofcourse I'll accept advice from a Bruin.. i'll then know exactly what NOT to do! You know, you're right. I have 2 separate setups just because I entertain a lot of guests and I like to have one in bedroom area also. In the long run, I think I'm going to keep the KHorns... I love them, and am very fond of them, and, well, they're beautiful!! :0) But I think I'm going to leave the Mac powering them.

I'm getting a pair of Bryston NT 212's that can do monoblock duty for the HT mains. Eventually, I can put in the 802d's there. And my pre / pro is a Lexicon MC-8, the stereo bypass on which is excellent. I really really enjoy my 2 channel piped through it.

People, that brings me to another question that's been bothering me for my HT setup. Say I have the above Bryston for my mains, and the Rotel 1095 for the surrounds and the center. Does that screw up the front imaging beween the mains and the center? Please help on this.

Karma - They're different sounds, yes... But I'm quite fond of both of them. I disagree about them being outdated... But then, maybe that's why I have a pair! Aside from the recent listening session with B&W and an earlier audition with Focal JM Labs' Electra speakers, I have yet to come across a pair of loudspeakers that play with the same emotion as my KHorns. But again, MY opinion. Thanks for the advice though.

kurtholz - Regarding electronics, will the above Brystons do? Are you familiar with them? Some have said they end up being too bright with B&W.

WIRotel - Thanks for the input. I'm glad you relate to how difficult it is to get rid of such a classic. But trust me when I tell you, I am quite into getting and trying out new speakers on a regular basis. Living in Pakistan, I am in the "mixed-blessings" vantage point of not having an organized audio market. Obviously, the drawback to that is the lack of authorized support. If something were to go wrong with my Lexicon, I'd have to send it to the Dubai, and have it fixed there.

However, the plus side to the market is that, once you become a regular buyer (and ask my wife, if you don't believe I'm one of those!) certain suppliers will just come and dump new electronics / speakers / subs / amps / pre amps at your house to try out... If you like, pay... if not, give back!

My point is, to my ears, the KHorns are top notch in my experience. Easy to power, authoritative... but i digress... this is not the point of my post... So thanks for the input.

Regards,

Fauzi

[WI Rotel]

Mean!!! All of you!!! Mean mean mean!!!! 8O 8O 8O

Tboooe - Ofcourse I'll accept advice from a Bruin.. i'll then know exactly what NOT to do! You know, you're right. I have 2 separate setups just because I entertain a lot of guests and I like to have one in bedroom area also. In the long run, I think I'm going to keep the KHorns... I love them, and am very fond of them, and, well, they're beautiful!! :0) But I think I'm going to leave the Mac powering them.

I'm getting a pair of Bryston NT 212's that can do monoblock duty for the HT mains. Eventually, I can put in the 802d's there. And my pre / pro is a Lexicon MC-8, the stereo bypass on which is excellent. I really really enjoy my 2 channel piped through it.

People, that brings me to another question that's been bothering me for my HT setup. Say I have the above Bryston for my mains, and the Rotel 1095 for the surrounds and the center. Does that screw up the front imaging beween the mains and the center? Please help on this.

Karma - They're different sounds, yes... But I'm quite fond of both of them. I disagree about them being outdated... But then, maybe that's why I have a pair! Aside from the recent listening session with B&W and an earlier audition with Focal JM Labs' Electra speakers, I have yet to come across a pair of loudspeakers that play with the same emotion as my KHorns. But again, MY opinion. Thanks for the advice though.

kurtholz - Regarding electronics, will the above Brystons do? Are you familiar with them? Some have said they end up being too bright with B&W.

WIRotel - Thanks for the input. I'm glad you relate to how difficult it is to get rid of such a classic. But trust me when I tell you, I am quite into getting and trying out new speakers on a regular basis. Living in Pakistan, I am in the "mixed-blessings" vantage point of not having an organized audio market. Obviously, the drawback to that is the lack of authorized support. If something were to go wrong with my Lexicon, I'd have to send it to the Dubai, and have it fixed there.

However, the plus side to the market is that, once you become a regular buyer (and ask my wife, if you don't believe I'm one of those!) certain suppliers will just come and dump new electronics / speakers / subs / amps / pre amps at your house to try out... If you like, pay... if not, give back!

My point is, to my ears, the KHorns are top notch in my experience. Easy to power, authoritative... but i digress... this is not the point of my post... So thanks for the input.

Regards,

Fauzi

You're quite right the beauty of the schorns is the horn loading. It makes them exquisitely sensitive, they are a beautiful complement for tubes. The large wooden cabinet also adds a nice warm character to the sound.

[DM3000 Owner]

Mean!!! All of you!!! Mean mean mean!!!! 8O 8O 8O

Tboooe - Ofcourse I'll accept advice from a Bruin.. i'll then know exactly what NOT to do! You know, you're right. I have 2 separate setups just because I entertain a lot of guests and I like to have one in bedroom area also. In the long run, I think I'm going to keep the KHorns... I love them, and am very fond of them, and, well, they're beautiful!! :0) But I think I'm going to leave the Mac powering them.

I'm getting a pair of Bryston NT 212's that can do monoblock duty for the HT mains. Eventually, I can put in the 802d's there. And my pre / pro is a Lexicon MC-8, the stereo bypass on which is excellent. I really really enjoy my 2 channel piped through it.

People, that brings me to another question that's been bothering me for my HT setup. Say I have the above Bryston for my mains, and the Rotel 1095 for the surrounds and the center. Does that screw up the front imaging beween the mains and the center? Please help on this.

Karma - They're different sounds, yes... But I'm quite fond of both of them. I disagree about them being outdated... But then, maybe that's why I have a pair! Aside from the recent listening session with B&W and an earlier audition with Focal JM Labs' Electra speakers, I have yet to come across a pair of loudspeakers that play with the same emotion as my KHorns. But again, MY opinion. Thanks for the advice though.

kurtholz - Regarding electronics, will the above Brystons do? Are you familiar with them? Some have said they end up being too bright with B&W.

WIRotel - Thanks for the input. I'm glad you relate to how difficult it is to get rid of such a classic. But trust me when I tell you, I am quite into getting and trying out new speakers on a regular basis. Living in Pakistan, I am in the "mixed-blessings" vantage point of not having an organized audio market. Obviously, the drawback to that is the lack of authorized support. If something were to go wrong with my Lexicon, I'd have to send it to the Dubai, and have it fixed there.

However, the plus side to the market is that, once you become a regular buyer (and ask my wife, if you don't believe I'm one of those!) certain suppliers will just come and dump new electronics / speakers / subs / amps / pre amps at your house to try out... If you like, pay... if not, give back!

My point is, to my ears, the KHorns are top notch in my experience. Easy to power, authoritative... but i digress... this is not the point of my post... So thanks for the input.

Regards,

Fauzi

Fauzi,

You wouldn't post here if you didn't want everyone to say get the 802's. If you really wanted to keep the K Horns, you would post on the Klipsch forums. I'll give you my experience, as I have N801's and K Horns (as well as DM3000's (B&W), Belles, Heresys, Megnaplanars, and JBL L100's and L100T's).

My K Horns were triamplified. I sold them because I have all of the parts to build a "super K Horn" with JBL 2404's, 2470's and and edgar Tractrix horn with a K Horn bass bin - all triamplified.

I went off on a tangent and got into B&W's and bought the N801's. I love them but have replaced my speakers, amps, and preamp. Quite a bit to go through and a lot of money.

The K Horns sounded amazing. When tri-amped they reached a level that was outstanding. The imaging was very wide but not necessairily very deep. The dynamics were unbelieveable and so effortless. I had very nice false corners that made them placeabel liek normal speakers. They were also fun because you can tweak until the end of time.

The B&W's are also outstanding. They do image better. I really enjoy these too and they truely are outstanding speakers. But, I am still going to build the K Horn super clones for my music room so that I can switch between.

Why? Because for all of the great attributes of the B&W's, and they are better at a lot of things, I'm not sure that I enjoy them more. The B&W's don't captivate me more than the K Horns (even though they are old junky technology that have seen their day and don't belong in a modern system...).

Here is the bottom line, make sure you are having fun and this is not a financial burden. You will need to at least double whatever the B&W's will cost you for new amplification and preamp, and for something that you may not more pleasure from.

Go back to the Klipsch forum and look at how much everyone posts and how much modification goes on. These guys are really into in. Same goes for the lansing heritage (JBL/Altec) site, although not quite to the same level as Klipsch).

Then come back here and see how much posting is going on. Everyone is in to this hobby, but its just not the same. (no offense to anyone here, just a different level of enthusiasm exists for Klipsch among its followers).

Some food for thought. BTW - I don't regret buying the B&W's, they are fantasitc speakers. :T

Chris

[Karma]

HI fauzi,
I did not offer any advice. I offered only one man's opinion.

Consider this: the Khorns were never designed for stereo. They were designed in the early '50's to overcome the problems associated with other bass designs. Horns were the rage then and there were many variations on the market. Amps were all vacuum tube and very low powered. Horns offered excellent efficiency which allowed high SPL's with the low powered amps. The amps themselves were basically very rolled off in the highs and did not have great bass response. The Khorns were intended to use one corner of the listening room. Imaging was hardly an idea much less a reality.

The Khorns met their design goals pretty well. The fact that such an old design has survived into the modern era is testimony to Paul Klipch's ideas. But the listening environment has changed. I have changed. I demand precision from my system. I want it to image precisely and have ruler straight response. I want deep bass. Don't misunderstand. I really like Khorn bass. It does have an effortless quality. The problem I have is the speakers don't do any of the other things I have learned to value.

Of course, my opinions have little validity because the Khorns, to sound even a little good, must have a huge room. The walls of the active corners must be at least as long as the lowest bass wavelengths or the horn will cut off early. I have never had a room that large. If my memory serves, the Khorns low frequency horn cut off is 27Hz after which the response falls off a cliff.

Further, when stereo came along, the Khorns were out of their league. Given the required wall lengths, a pair of Khorns had huge hole in the middle of the sound stage. The speakers just had to be placed too far apart. Paul (yes, I did know him) introduced the Heresy (so named because it was not a horn) to function as a summed center channel to fill the hole. It kind of worked but newer designs out image the Khorns by a large margin. The Heresy was acceptable for a while but lost ground fast as newer designs optimized imaging and precision; qualities which I seek.

Now, subwoofers have erased the last stronghold held by the Khorns. Of course I am speaking of good subs, not the average. The Khorn bass was good enough to provide the target for younger designers. They have stormed the bastion and seized the castle, IMO. Game over.

I would like to compliment the Khorns in one specific performance area which I like very much. The speakers engage the listening room better than all but one speaker in my experience; namely the Apogee Grand Slam. It’s an exceptional quality that does entice one’s enthusiasm for the program. I wish more speakers did this well. But it’s not enough to cause me to toss all of my other audio values.

So now I view the Khorns as a fond memory and a museum piece similar to a classic 1930's automobile. Nice, but old.

We have not even discussed the Khorn’s compatibility with modern amplifiers. That subject is worth a whole new thread.

I will not quibble with your likes. I will agree to disagree. I'll repeat: Khorns are hopelessly outdated, IMHO.

Sparky

[fauzigarib]

Enjoyment from speakers...

Hey guys,

Chris - Thanks for the response. I think you hit the nail on the head. My experience in audio has been very limited, and my environment (I live in Pakistan) has not been very conducive to experimenting in this field. However, the members of the Klipsch forum (namely the 2channel side!) have played a HUGE role in my learning as much as I have in such a short time.

So yes, a large part of the enjoyment that I have derived from this pair, other than the actual listening pleasure, has been, for example, sititing in an Electrical Enginnering lab at Princeton University with all sorts of scopes on Dean G's new crossovers for my Khorns. I had read about all these various measurements and all in magazines, but I would NEVER have had a chance to see them live had it not been for that forum and these speakers... And I LOVE it.

So yes, even though the speakers sound phenomenal, it's always a wonderfully involving experience being able to play around with them also.

BTW, you're a brave brave man saying what you did in your last post!!! Friendly advice: Be sure to don your bullet proof vest next time you log on!


Sparky - Please... don't get me wrong... I wasn't being dismissive in the slightest when I said "Thanks for the advice." I really appreciated your input, and I have nothing but the highest respect for your opinion... and treat your input as such: your opinion.

I really enjoyed your last post. I think you were quite dead on in reasoning out your likes and dislikes. I really appreciate your logic and history.

I've recently come to accept the fact that speaker technology has really moved on. As I mentioned, I hear quite a lot of new speakers on a regular basis, but the two that really moved me were teh JM Labs and the 800 series B&W's. I don't know how "good" or "bad" they were objectively speaking. Yes, they both imaged very well, and their tonal response was wonderfully subtle.. yada yada yada... But they moved me! They really, really moved me.

... As do the KHorns on a regular basis. Which is why I posted this thread. It's (irrationally) a tough thing to think about letting these go... And I think that I've more or less made up my mind that I'm not going to sell them. They've become my (not so) little babies!

Plus, i could never stand to see the smirk on my wife's face as they're being lugged out the door!!! :M

Thanks guys,

Fauzi

[boss]

Fauzi

I am a 2-channel lo-fi kind of person. I have been very happy with my JBL L112 + Rotel combo until the day (a few weeks ago) I stepped in the local B&W / Classe / Rotel dealer and auditioned their 802D+Classe CA-2100 combo. Yes, speaker technology has moved on since 20 years ago without me noticing it. (I seldom, or never window-shopped at hi-fi shops, that's why).


If I ever go B&W, I will have to find a decent retirement home for the L112s where they can grow old gracefully.

BTW, I will be looking seriously at CLASSE or MCINTOSH power amp. What do you recommend? (Solidstate MC only). Thanks.

[fauzigarib]

McIntosh ideas...

Fauzi

I am a 2-channel lo-fi kind of person. I have been very happy with my JBL L112 + Rotel combo until the day (a few weeks ago) I stepped in the local B&W / Classe / Rotel dealer and auditioned their 802D+Classe CA-2100 combo. Yes, speaker technology has moved on since 20 years ago without me noticing it. (I seldom, or never window-shopped at hi-fi shops, that's why).


If I ever go B&W, I will have to find a decent retirement home for the L112s where they can grow old gracefully.

BTW, I will be looking seriously at CLASSE or MCINTOSH power amp. What do you recommend? (Solidstate MC only). Thanks.

Boss,

Thanks for the info... Though I'm not intimately familiar with the 112's, I have had the chance to hear them a couple of times at an aquaintance's house, and was quite impressed with them

I would strongly suggest going McIntosh with them.. I gather that's why you were asking... YOu know what they say... Once you have "Mac" you never go back! :0)

Anyway, don't have too much experience with too many macs.. Did run the MC-30's for a couple months, but the stupid guy asked for them back! Can you imagine? Ran the MC 275 MK IV, and I absolutely LOVED that amp! Both, however, are tubes.... So that's out.

Currently, as I've mentioned in some of my posts, I'm running an SS integrated on my Khorns, and I think it is a phenomenal combination. The model is the MA 6400. Jim on this forum is also running a similar combo (his is the MA 6500, I believe), and he is one helpful dude. According to some posts that I read, this Mac might be a tad underpowered for the 800 series, though I have trouble believing it. Both the above mentioned Integrateds come wtih 2 ohm taps, and the lowest published stretch for the 802's are 2.6 ohms (if I remember correctly.)

Classe, unfortuanately, I don't have much experience with, so I'd most likely not end up getting that brand, until and unless I get to audition it in depth... Though many many people have said that combination is to die for.

Good luck, man.. .and thanks for the comments.

-Fauzi

[DM3000 Owner]

Hey guys,

Plus, i could never stand to see the smirk on my wife's face as they're being lugged out the door!!! :M

Thanks guys,

Fauzi

That's enough of a reason to keep them!!

Anyway, I did not try to start a flame war. I have a lot of speakers and go to a lot of forums. Every forum swears that their speakers are the best and nothing else will do. On the JBL site they say B&W's don't have dynamics, same for klipsch site, here the others are old and outdated. I like all of them.

Anyway, my whole point was enjoyment. Make sure that you will derive an amount of enjoyment from the B&W 800 series speakers for the money that you will spend, and its a lot more than you think. This is a hobby and I really got a huge amount of pleasure from my K Horns. I'm into the B&W setup over $10,000 and I have been buying used. I'm not sorry I did it, I absolutely love these, but I didn't think I'd be buying 500 wpc monoblocks and a new preamp. It adds up quickly.

There is a Klipsch forum member who has LaScalas and B&W N804's right next to them. He loves the 804's and swithes back and forth between them, although mostly using the 804's.

If I'm correct, the 804's don't have the power requirements of the 800, 801, 802's. This may be an alternative to explore.

In any event, make sure you are enjoying yourself.

Chris

PS - To the JBL owner, keep the JBL L112's. I am going through a pair of beautiful L100's to use in my office with a vintage Yamaha receiver with a big wood case. It should match nicely with the white woofers. Nice vintage setup to listen to while paying my bills... have to love excuses to buy equipment. :B

[Karma]

HI fauzi,
Rereading my previous post I realized that I left something very important out. I was too intent on making my point. I apologize.

I have been a past admirer (lover) of Khorns. Of all the horns they are the best and always have been. There were several other horn or semi-horn designs that competed with the Khorns that were in the same general price range but they have been forgotten. The Electrovoice Patrician and Altec Voice of the Theater come to mind. Of course, the Patrcian did not have a bass horn and the VOT did not have deep bass. They were good speakers for their time, though.

Paul Klipch hatched a unique idea-the folded corner horn. For the first time a practical horn could produce great bass in a home environment. They were revolutionary. Ideas that change the face of audio do not come along often. I admire the idea and the execution.

The other one of maybe equal or greater magnitude is acoustic suspension. It's amusing to consider that the Khorn may have been responsible for the very different acoustic suspension design. The general impossibility of stuffing TWO gigantic Khorns into a living room defined the need for a compact speaker for stereo use.

I also think they are physically beautiful. They were the object of my lust for many years. Even after all this discussion, I would go out of my way to hear your Khorn system. I'm sure it would bring tears to my eyes. I really do understand your attachment to these historic classics.

Thanks for bringing them to the attention of this forum. We need this awareness of the wonderful history of our hobby.

Sparky

[fauzigarib]

Sniff!!!

Sparky!

errr... ummm... I LOVE YOU MAN!!!! :E

LOL! From your previous post, I realized that there was kind of a relationship between you and those speakers... And I thought as much that you did like them at one point or the other...

Sparky, I have to hand one thing to you. Hats off to your logical reasoning and ability to explain - reason out things in such a subjective hobby. I really admire it when I meet someone who can verbalize, in so many words, his likes and dislikes and the reasons behind them.

I don't know if you're following the "Another reason to dislike Bose" thread in the AV chalet section, but it's an interesting one. In there, amidst the gunfire, smart ol' me decided to jump in and, well, not exactly defend Bose, but shift the blame to the uneducated consumer. And try to make a point that the anger towards Bose is really become kind of a "mob" mentality, whereas I really feel it's misdirected. I swear, I don't like their products though! :lol:

Anyway, so the thread kind of digressed, and I started trying to explain my thoughts that this has become such a subjective hobby, moreso orignating from what we've read and seen rather than what we've heard, that it's sick.

Coming full circle to your last two posts, I really appreciate the way you write.

I told you earlier that I really hold the highest regard for your opinion. Chalk it up a notch after this!

Also, you're more than welcome to come check out my system... err... whenever you're in Pakistan next. I'll figure out what to do when this strange man in my house starts crying after listening to my speakers!!! :B

Later, man

Fauzi

[Karma]

HI fauzi,
Thanks for your kind words. Unfortunately, Pakistan is a little out of reach. Can I ask if English is your first language? Whether it is or not, you express yourself beautifully. Take care.

Sparky

[fauzigarib]

Esl!

Sparky,

I'm sure most people on this forum might not even know what the above acronym is... English as a Second Language.

To answer your question, no, English is (officially, at least) not my first language... However, having gone to the American School system in Pakistan all my life, having spent 6-7 years in Los Angeles at USC, and now living in Toronto for six months of the year (I might add, WITHOUT my KHorns), well, you get the idea...

Plus, all my RICH :T clients are in the west (I own a commodities trading company dealing mainly in Rice and other edible commodities), and I love to write! So there...

All of the above is when I'm not crawling around on audio forums on the net!

BTW, Sparky... I meant to ask you... what does your system consist of currently? I guess I'm just going to check out your profile... but do tell! Would love to know.

-Fauzi

Later,

Fauzi

[fauzigarib]

On second thought...

... Don't tell me... I just checked out your profile!

Don't wanna read about your system again. Don't think I can take soo much jealousy in one day!!!

Way to go, man... Nice system!

-Fauzi :T

[Karma]

HI fauzi,
I’m sorry but I don’t get a chance to talk about by baby to many folks who will appreciate it. I think you will so you are chosen. Just ignore this post if you don’t want to be the chosen one.

This is about my main stereo music system. I chose the Martin Logan CLS IIA’s first. As you know, these speakers are very difficult to drive. I experimented with several Levinson models and, while they sounded good, I as not satisfied. I thought there was more to be had. By luck, I stumbled across a Audio Research D250 Mk II Servo pure tube amp that my local dealer obtained in an estate sale. The owner had died listening to his system. True statement! What a way to go. This is a legendary amp; one I never expected to see or hear. I volunteered to test the amp after it was repaired. Three of us were needed to move it.

I had a history with Audio Research before this with their lower priced and powered equipment. I discovered the amp to be in a different league from the others. It had a quality I have never seen described. I call it dynamic linearity. Besides doing all the normal power amp things extremely well it seemed to reproduce subtle inner harmonic relationships that I had never heard from any other amp. It’s as though even the best of other amps didn’t get these relationships quite right. It remains unique to this day in my experience.

Well, now I was on a roll. The next item I acquired was an Audio Research SP-11Mk2 preamp. It fit right into the system and remains one of the two best preamps I have ever heard, the other being a CAT unit.

The CLS’s are great speakers with significant weaknesses. Specifically, they don’t do bass well. They don’t go low. Powerful bass will cause the diaphragms to bottom out. In general, deep bass reduced the speaker’s dynamic range. Not good. Otherwise they are astonishing speakers. The answer is simple. Don’t make them do bass, right? At this time Kinnergetics designed a subwoofer intended specifically for use with the CLS’s. They were physically and sonically matched to the CLS’s. The subs could only be bought in pairs. They were not self-powered. I assigned subwoofer duty to my Levinson Number 23 power amp. It was a good match for the 4 ohm subs providing 400 watts per channel.

I could write all day about this system. But I won’t bore you. Each piece has a story attached to it. Suffice to say the system sounds wonderful. It’s no longer new but I have not yet heard a new system that can match it. Of course, a father always loves his child. Do not consider me an objective listener though I try to be.

Take Care, Sparky

[fauzigarib]

What part of No don't you understand?!!?

Sparky!

When I said no, I really meant ... for you to tell me mooooore than you did!!! :T

Well done with the system, man. In my earlier post, I had told you to not tell me about the system specifically because of the AR D-250.... it's part of audio lore, and I actually had to wipe the drool off before handing the laptop over to the wife... God know what sites she must be thinking I'm frequenting!

Sparky, your system, in my mind is better than any Pass Labs amp powering Wilson's Grand Maxx, for example. Man oh man, would this sound sweet, but there's really no fun involved in going to a store, plunking down 80k, and bringing the speakers home (though, now that I put it down on paper, I realize I really wouldn't mind being able to do that!!!!)

I feel that to thoroughly enjoy this hobby, more than golden ears, you need one-ness with your system. I really feel that's step #1 to audio nirvana.

To me it sounds like you're there already! Good for you!

-Fauzi

[Jesse111]

I won't be much help because I don't do home theater. I'm 100% 2 channel. But I did audition Klipsch RF 82's and 802's at the same time. Two totaly different sounds. For my ears, the Klipsch had a WOW factor but fatigued me after just 5 minutes. I guess I'm not a horn guy. My personal opinion is that it is not possible to compare in the sense that the differences are enormous. I don't hear any realism with Klipsch as a whole speaker. They certainly are exciting speakers but from my view, it's like riding a dirt bike and riding a street bike. They both will get you there but the ride is completely different. I of course would choose the awesome reproduction of the truth over embellishment. I'm sure Klipsch folks would beg to differ.

[DM3000 Owner]

I won't be much help because I don't do home theater. I'm 100% 2 channel. But I did audition Klipsch RF 82's and 802's at the same time. Two totaly different sounds. For my ears, the Klipsch had a WOW factor but fatigued me after just 5 minutes. I guess I'm not a horn guy. My personal opinion is that it is not possible to compare in the sense that the differences are enormous. I don't hear any realism with Klipsch as a whole speaker. They certainly are exciting speakers but from my view, it's like riding a dirt bike and riding a street bike. They both will get you there but the ride is completely different. I of course would choose the awesome reproduction of the truth over embellishment. I'm sure Klipsch folks would beg to differ.

The problem with horns is that most of the time they are set up wrong and what is taken away is that they are "harsh." It is unfortunate. With the right amplification, they offer performace well beyond their price point.

Chris

[Jesse111]

The problem with horns is that most of the time they are set up wrong and what is taken away is that they are "harsh." It is unfortunate. With the right amplification, they offer performace well beyond their price point.

Chris

I would not doubt that a bit. When I auditioned them, the setup seemed less than optimal. I'm sure they aren't my cup of tea but no doubt they could have sounded better.

[DM3000 Owner]

I would not doubt that a bit. When I auditioned them, the setup seemed less than optimal. I'm sure they aren't my cup of tea but no doubt they could have sounded better.

Its unfortunate the way some dealers set up speakers. This is especially true when dealing with highly revelaing speakers as they can he really harsh if done wrong.

Our local B&W Dealer here in Las Vegas, who I reccommend driving to California before dealing with them, had a pair of B&W 802D's next to Martin Logan elctrostats. The electrostats were playing and the sound was so bright it hurt my ears. I couldn't wait for him to turn them off so that I could listen to the 802D's. Turns out I was listening to the 802's. It was painful. I'm sure these speakers sound much better than what I heard. Funny enough, in the next room they had a pair of 805s's that sounded just beautiful.

Chris

[fauzigarib]

Nina Simone and U2, to name a few!

Hey all,

Not to raise this topic from the dead, but I just felt like sharing...

My wife and baby are away visiting my in laws, and so after the baby's birth, this is the first time that I've had to be able to sit down and just listen to music. So I didnt' know what I felt like listening to, so I just turned on my Squeezebox (the Squeezebox is just perfect for nights like these!), and put it on random, and let it fly. Nina Simone, to U2, to Portishead, to Miles, to Art Pepper, to AC/DC... Led Zep... all stuff that used to and still does, bring a smile to my face!

Just for the record, I still haven't bought my N801's yet... I showed the seller the money, and gave him a take it or leave it offer... so he's simmering a little bit.

Meantime, my room is dimly lit, mainly by the glow coming from my Mac, and the tunes coming from the system are sounding just phenomenal. The soundstage is nothing short of exquisite, and the goosebumps are finding their way to the top of my skin.

Very rare is it that the setting, the mood, and the music match so perfectly. And even rarer still, is the ability to be able to share with like minded people. I hope you all have moments like these... makes it all worthwhile!

I really can't help but think about my pending B&W purchase... does it get any better than this?

Happy listening!

Fauzi

[Joey_V]

The anticipation is killing me... when are you going to get your 801s?? I hope it's soon and that you find yourself in an even higher aural plane.

JOey

[DM3000 Owner]

Hey all,

Not to raise this topic from the dead, but I just felt like sharing...

My wife and baby are away visiting my in laws, and so after the baby's birth, this is the first time that I've had to be able to sit down and just listen to music. So I didnt' know what I felt like listening to, so I just turned on my Squeezebox (the Squeezebox is just perfect for nights like these!), and put it on random, and let it fly. Nina Simone, to U2, to Portishead, to Miles, to Art Pepper, to AC/DC... Led Zep... all stuff that used to and still does, bring a smile to my face!

Just for the record, I still haven't bought my N801's yet... I showed the seller the money, and gave him a take it or leave it offer... so he's simmering a little bit.

Meantime, my room is dimly lit, mainly by the glow coming from my Mac, and the tunes coming from the system are sounding just phenomenal. The soundstage is nothing short of exquisite, and the goosebumps are finding their way to the top of my skin.

Very rare is it that the setting, the mood, and the music match so perfectly. And even rarer still, is the ability to be able to share with like minded people. I hope you all have moments like these... makes it all worthwhile!

I really can't help but think about my pending B&W purchase... does it get any better than this?

Happy listening!

Fauzi

No, it doesn't get any better, more expensive, yes, but not better, at least from an enjoyment standpoint.

I'll put it this way, I think that I enjoyed my stepfather's Bose 601's in 1980 more than anything while I played air guitar to Led Zeppelin. MY equipemnt has gotten much better, but enjoyment is about the same. I don't know if I can say that I enjoy my 801's any more than my K Horns.

Anyway, you've got the money, go for the N801's if he accepts. You will enjoy the experience. :T