Upgrade from 603S3

[mihaeli]

Is there sense in upgrading from 603S3 to 604S3? Would this improve considerably the performance, or I should stay with what I have, and see how to squeese my budget to get from the 700 series in the future?

Thanks.

[Rod S]

In all honesty it depends on what you expect to get from the upgrade, slightly more bass, a slightly bigger presence or just new speakers.

The difference between the 603 and 604 is not going to be night and day. You may get better bass or slightly improved details but this will depend on what you use as a source and supporting electronics. Basically if you don’t have a descent front end the any differences may not even be discernable.

If you really want to upgrade speakers, and stay within B&W offerings, you’ll need to look at 700 or 800 series. Before doing that think about the equipment you will need to get the best out of them. If you improve the electronics currently driving the 603’s you may even (temporarily) loose the feeling that you need to upgrade them. At that point you’ll also have a system capable of revealing any future speaker upgrade to its full potential.

The only way you can really determine what will work for your ears and your wallet is to go and listen to a variety of setups and put together the one that brings you the most enjoyment.

[jim777]

I would save my $$ for 703's or even 803S's. Depends on a lot of factors like Rod_S said.

Maybe you could give more details on what electronics you are using... that might be the first place to start

[dknightd]

I liked the 604 better than the 603 (but I ended up with 703 which I like even more). If you can get a very good trade in allowance on your 603 (i.e. what you paid for them) then it maybe worth upgrading 603 to 604, if you like the sound better. If you are going to loose money on the trade in I'd wait till you can afford something a step (or two) up (804 would be a good choice IMO). In the end it is your money, you have to decide if it is worth it to you.

[scanido]

I recently traded in my 4mo old 603S3 for 804S and the difference is night & day!

I suggest holding off until you can upgrade to at least a 704. I was in the market for either the 704 or 804 and went with the latter, but the 704 is a very nice speaker and i would of been happy with those too. I figured these would be my last speakers so i decided to wait a bit longer and get the speakers i really wanted, the 804S

[tboooe]

I agree with what everyone has said. I believe that taking an incremental step up is usually not worth it. But if you take several steps up then you will notice more of a difference. I recently changed from 804S to 802D, after considering going to 803S or 803D. I just felt that I was not getting enough of a difference to warrant the difference in price. I was better off spending a bit more money to get a big jump in performance. All this being said, it really depends on what you consider to be a "big" improvement. For me, I do not like to take incremental steps.

[mihaeli]

Now thinking I may have actually problems with the electronics. I have H/K 235 (well, this is my first configuration) and big leap forward to 804 or even 704 may bring the necessity to upgrade also the receiver to more power. Please comment if this will happen, and if yes, what receiver would be appropriate for 704.

[BTB]

Hi mihaeli

I traded up from a pair of 603 S3's to 704's a few months ago... all I can say is... tread carefully. For what it's worth, your 603's are fantastic speakers, esp. considering how inexpensive they are vs. the performance they offer. My experience since the trade has been a bit of give and take... the 704's are better in most areas but not all and there are certain areas of the 603's performance that are sorely missed in my system.

On forums like this one it is easy for well meaning contributors to suggest upgrades regardless of cost implications, like sell your 600's get some 800's, good and well if you have no budget restrictions, but if cost is an issue consider your upgrades strategically to build progressively better, price and performance compatible systems . Buying 800 series speakers and hooking up to a low power reciever will not yield the improvement you desire, so you are correct in looking at the H/K as a potential problem. The 800 series speakers require not only power but a certain type of quality from the driving amplifier (and source for that matter) to give of their best.

I would say, if you have money to spend... upgrade your electronics first, a) you'll be rewarded with better performance from your current speakers, I don't mean to insult your choice of amp at all, but those 603's will really come to life with a bigger amp, I know that from first hand experience... and b) the upgrade on electronics now will probably afford you a better match with nicer B&W's (700 or 800 series) further down the line.

[jim777]

BTB, in what area is a 603 better than a 704?? I compared the two myself once, but not as extensively as you of course. My dealer often says the same about the 804 or 803S; the more we go up the range, the more bad recordings are not forgiven.

But I think that just confirms that the only upgrade that is worth it is to go with a FST mid range (703 or 800 series). Of course when someone buys his first speakers, he should buy the best he can afford - but here, an upgrade is just not worth it.

But mihaeli, you identified the other problem. These "FST" B&W's actually sound worse than the 603's when plugged to electronics that are not up to the task. Power may not be the problem (B&W's are efficient) but power quality is. If you plan to go the 800 series route, also plan more $$$ ahead for new amp & source.

BTB, don't forget that speakers take a lot of time to break in and you might like your 704's a lot more in a few weeks/months.

Again mihaeli, what do you listen to and what are your listening habits?? What kind of sound are you looking for? These details will help a lot to give you better advice

[scanido]

Now thinking I may have actually problems with the electronics. I have H/K 235 (well, this is my first configuration) and big leap forward to 804 or even 704 may bring the necessity to upgrade also the receiver to more power. Please comment if this will happen, and if yes, what receiver would be appropriate for 704.

I'm powering my 804S with a $250 Best Buy Yamaha receiver, 100w of Yamaha power! Check my setup. To tell you the truth it doesn't sound as bad as i thought.

I had the same doubts as i thought the 804S would cripple my receiver so i asked the dealer if i can do an in-home demo to see for myself. Low and behold i can play the 804S at pretty loud volumes with clarity. I don't push it though, and always make sure to listen for any breakup or compression in the sound. I know of course this is not the optimal solution and is only temporary until i get better electronics. Overall the sound is still better than my 603S3, not huge, but clearly better highs, mids and more detailed bass!

With so many new receivers, processors, and digital amps on the horizon i decided to hold off on this until next year and go for better speakrs instead. I am happy overall and can live with my 804S on a very cheap receiver. It works suprisingly well!

[BTB]

Hi jim777

Didn't mean to give you a heart attack!!!

An opinion really, but the 704's midband is nowhere near as "open" as the 603's. In fact (even tho' I hate "hi-fi speak" it makes the explaination easier) the 704's midrange is quite "shut in" and as a result "in the room" is something they don't do as well as the 603. It just doesn't have the same presence... I listen to a lot of acoustic jazz, so this matters to me alot!

Otherwise the 603 couldn't touch it in terms of bass articulation and 3d treble.

That said, my observations may well be an issue of amplification quality, and what sort of sound I consider "ideal". I use a Rotel RC1070/RB 1070 combo at present, they were a great match for my 603's, but somehow I can't help thinking that these 704's have potential beyond the constraints of these Rotels. Mostly I think I am after a "valve" sounding midrange with tight, transistor bass and will be looking at some valve/transistor hybrid amps soon. At the moment the 704 seems to have a far colder tone than the 603's before them.

Not to get too far off the original thread... I just don't think that mihaeli is fully exploiting the potential of his speakers yet... I've heard them on lower and higher powered amps and even tho' a small amp will drive them, they all but blossom on the business end of a bigger, cleaner amp... the aforementioned Rotels being just such products. I checked the specs of his H/K earlier, (a 50 or 60w A/V amp) yet he seems to only listen with two speakers... if 2ch only is an option perhaps this is a direction to consider?

So, mihaeli... is yours more a system for music or HT?

[miner]

I, too, was using a RC1070/RB1070 combo to power my N804. I thought my audio had delivered the true bliss I was looking for......until my RB1070 blew fuses. I just could not stand to be without music for weeks so I purchased a RB-1092 amp. This amp opened up my N804 to a level I had not experienced. Next, I upgraded to the RC-1090 pre; another step towards auio nirvana, albiet not as great as the amp upgrade. Bottom line, for FST mid speakers, more power is mo' betta'.

[mike c]

hi miner, before the RC1070, what did you have?

[jim777]

Didn't mean to give you a heart attack!!!

Ha! :rofl: I just didn't want my two questions to get lost in my long post

[mihaeli]

Thanks to all of you. jim777 had two questions - I listen about 50:50 music vs. HT. I would like more full sound bodied sound. Hope this will lead to some refinement.

Thanks.

[jim777]

The 603s3 is really a great sounding speaker in a 5.1 setup. Instead of a speaker upgrade, I would consider a center speaker (LCR600s3), surrounds (601s3) and a sub (not necessarily B&W) as next items. Then you could upgrade your electronics further down the road...

Unless you already had other speakers.....

[BTB]

I would like more full sound bodied sound. Hope this will lead to some refinement.

mihaeli

The reason for the quote is the following:

I.M.O you will get a more full bodied sound out of a bigger amp used with your existing 603's, changing to bigger speakers merely means you will place greater strain on an already "borderline" amp (power wise) and will not produce the full bodied sound you desire. As I said, not knocking your existing amp, but with less power I found those 603's sounded a little dark and thin, first time I hooked mine up to my Rotels (not advocating a Rotel/B&W match, just what worked for me) I couldn't believe what propulsive drive and full, tight bass they were capable of. It was quite something.

I'm not suggesting that you go out and try an amp capable of powering a small city (nor am I some power mad lunatic), just that you will achieve a more balanced match between the capabilties (and power requirements) of your loudspeakers and amp, and therefore better SQ in the process. Particularly with your 603's which I.M.O are slightly harder to drive properly than most people realise. Alot of the focus on these forums is placed on the upper B&W series and the lower stuff is often overlooked, yet I think that your speakers are without doubt worth a better grade of amp.

Of course you could take jim's suggestion and just add the rest of your 5.1 suite, but I think you will still not have achieved what you seem to want... better SQ from your current speakers.

But that's your call to make. Good luck. :T

[Rod S]

mihaeli,

I can’t speak from an HT perspective as I’m more focused on two channel but I can tell you my experience.

I started off with a pair of B&W 601 S2’s, a Denon PMA 350SE (integrated ~70W/ch or so) and a Technics MASH CD player. I upgraded the speakers to the 603 S3’s looking for more bass extension and an overall improvement in sound better dynamics etc. I got more bass but didn’t quite get the upgrade I was hoping for. A year or so down the line, I stumbled on this forum and started to read through the posts to get an idea of systems that folks had put together. I decided I needed some new electronics to get the most out of my speakers. I went with Rotel separates and upgraded to the RC-1090 RB-1080 (200 w/ch) and RCD 1072. Brilliant!! This was what I was looking for with my initial purchase of the 603’s.

The 603’s are a very capable speaker and have a good rate of return on the investment, which can really be shown when driven with a good level of equipment. I really think upgrading the electronics will breathe new life in to your speakers. I think you'll get more "bang for your buck" than you will buying the 604’s and using the same front end.

There is, to me, one major issue with the system I currently have. It made me realize that spending money, in the right places, can significantly improve listening enjoyment. As such, I find myself compelled to go to audio shops and listen to more expensive components and plan how I can blow, sorry appropriately spend all my hard earned cash on speakers and amps and sources and preamps and interconnects……………...

[mihaeli]

Let me express my appreciation for all the knowledge and good intended advices.

Thank you all so much.