1 or 2 Subs ASW 850 with 5.1 ch ???

[chinets]

Hi, Y'all,
I have a 5.1 system: With a pair of b&W 803's in the front and a pair of B&W 804 for surround, The HTM1 center, and Sub ASW 850 at the moment run by Rotel 1098/1095 combo and Krell amp for the fronts. It sounds awsome in HT and in 5 channel music listening.

I was wondering since my room is large 8X12 meters, would I benefit for another Sub such as the ASW 855 so that the whole room would have this stereo feeling? Would it also release stress on the first sub that is taking all the boom in HT with explosions etc. and make the sound smoother (although it is very smooth now!!), but also make the first sub work less and get less taxed so much, or that is all an illusion??? What would be the benefit of another Sub??? Would I really improve the sound?? What would I hear different?? Should I do this move and come out a winner or is just a waste of money?? I love bass that is smooth like the ASW 850 so would I really need another 850 or 855 Sub?? Would I also benefit from 5 channel music this way too??

Can you out there sort of guide me on what you would do and please stick to ONLY the sub change not the amp. source etc. I am just refering to the sub. Thanks in advance!!

[kurtholz]

sick sick sick sick sick, another sub isnt going to help you, what you need is another whole system, and a credit line of a million dollars,

then you will sleep at night

you have upgraditis, a very common affliction, check the yellow pages,maybe there is a meeeting place near you

hahahahhahaha

2 subs would rock, that's kinda the holy grail of set-up's, go for it

however, i would lean more towards REL or Velodyne than B & W'

:-)

Kurt

[Karma]

HI chinets,
You have a nice system. An expensive system. And a large room. I suggest you buy the second sub. By sharing the work between two subs distortion will be reduced especially at very low frequencies and high SPL. And your room reverberation will be excited differently which usually results in improvement. Watch words: Dual Subs Are Good!!

If you organize your subs properly with respect to your L & R mains, you will notice stereo sub effects but they are subtle. Mostly they communicate the reverberation field of the recording venue. By doing so the soundstage is solidified, is more coherent, is more specific. You should pay close attention to placement. The scheme works best if the subs are located close to the mains.

Many folks discount these effects but that’s only because they have never lived with stereo subs. Of course, we are speaking about music where stereo bass is actually recorded. DD 5.1’s LFE is mono so stereo is a non issue. Understand, I am using 805S mains. My subs must reach up to about 45 Hz which they do nicely. With your speakers you will cross over the sub at a much lower frequency. This may change the interaction with the mains. It should make it better than mine. Proper integration is the key.

My HT/music bedroom system was originally set up with a single ASW 800. I was trying to save money and space. I hated it. It took about a week of denial before I went to ebay and found my second ASW800. Life was good again.

My bedroom is small. It’s 15X10X8 or 1440 cu feet. Even with this small room, the ASW800’s work hard. I wish I had your 15” driver. But, all in all, my subs work well.

From my point of view, buying the second sub is a no brainer. You should consider getting a second ASW850. Before I found my second ASW800 I auditioned a ASW825 to see if I could mix and match with the newer speaker. I surprised to find that they sounded somewhat different. It was not terrible, but there was a slight discontinuity in the soundstage. I decided to seek a second ASW800 that matched in color (black) and in new condition. I got lucky and found a very nice used one. The soundstage discontinuity disappeared. Plus, I saved a fair amount of money. I’m happy.

Sparky

[chinets]

Karma,
You are a saviour. I loved your response and to the point. I thank you immensly for all your help and I have just placed the order for the ASW 855 as the ASW 850 is discontinued and the dealer told me they would sound exactly the same as the 855 which replaced the 850!!
Now I'll be rocking in stereo ,thanks to you Karma.
Again ,I appreciate all your kind help and the time you took to write such a long detailed Info. that has changed my mind immediately.
Have a wonderful day Pal.
Best regards,
Chainets

[chinets]

Hi Kurt,
You make me laugh you KRELL guy!!!!! You want to convert us all into Krellaholics!!
Thanks for your response and keep in touch as usual.
Chau,
Chinets

[Karma]

HI chinets,
Great! I don't think you will be sorry.

Funny things (LOL type funny) happen in this hobby. When I was looking for my second ASW800 (they were discontinued) my dealer offered to loan me his one and only ASW825. He had just unpacked it and had never even hooked it up. I was very interested because I had not found any used ASW800's in spite of a very determined search.

I live about 125 miles from my dealer. So I jumped into the car, drove 125 miles, picked up the ASW825, drove 125 miles back to my house (I was very excited), immediately hooked up the new sub and finally sat back and listened. I liked what I heard. I twiddled with the adjustments and placement and then shut things down. I was tired. It had been a long day. I was kind of choking on the added expense for my "modest" little bedroom system but I was going to do it come hell or high water.

Before going to bed I went into my computer room to shut things down. I thought maybe I should check ebay one more time. Well, hell and higher water happened! There is was; a pretty ASW800 in black ash supposedly in new condition with a Buy It Now price of $1425. I emailed the guy with the mandatory questions. The answers looked good so using Pay Pal I had a new (used) ASW800 within an hour! I received it a week later and it was perfect.

All this on the same day I had driven 250 miles to borrow the ASW825. So, the next weekend I drove 250 miles AGAIIN to return the ASW825. My dealer was very understanding.

Sparky

BTW, I'm a Krell guy too. It's good to see non-Krell types so interested in good sound (LOL) 8) . Also, I have dual subs on my main listening room system. In fact, I have had dual subs on various systems for over 30 years. I have good reasons for my opinions. I'm sitting here in my bedroom in the sweet spot typing on my laptop listening to Enya's Watermark. I remain impressed by how good this "modest" little 805S based system is (with Krell!). The beautiful bass is so in keeping with this thread. You are gonna love it. Let me know how it works out. :T

[texasbwfan]

Karma,

I'm an 805 owner as well and have been struggling with my next purchase. I currently own the ASW675 sub and have been contemplating the purchase of a second. In your opinion, would I be better served buying a 2nd ASW675 or would it be best for me to wait and upgrade to a single 800 series sub? If I went the 800 route, I would not be in the financial position to buy a second for a year or so. The room that my system is set up in is small and for my application, the 805/675 combo works very well. I do watch movies from time to time but my main focus is music. Any advice you can offer is greatly appreciated. Thanks!

[Karma]

HI texas,
Hard to say. Your 675 uses a 10" driver which gives a surface area of 78 sq inches. An 825 uses a 12" driver which gives 112 sq inches. Two 675's give a total of 156 sq inches of total driver area. This is more than a single 825 which means the dual 673 will couple to the room air better. By this measure, the dual 675's will produce less distortion at a given volume level.

However, there are other factors such as driver design, amplifier power, the throw of the cone, etc. I have not heard both in a side by side comparison. I suspect the the 825 is quite a bit better but I don't know for sure.

Since you are happy with your current set up I think I would vote for the dual 675's. But, if an upgrade to 800 series speakers is possible, I would go with the 825 planning to buy a second one when you can.

So, your upgrade plans seem to be the determining factor.

Sparky

[texasbwfan]

Sparky,

Thanks for the response. To be fair, I've not heard the 825 sub as of yet. I should first audition the 825 and see whether or not my perceived improvement is worth the additional cost. Can you help me understand what you mean by 'couple to the room air better' and 'less distortion at a given volume'? Does this mean a cleaner sound?

I get a monsterous grin on my face each and EVERY time I listen to my 805s and 675 yet I always find myself wanting more...why is that!? ;-) I'm beginning to think that what I'm really looking for is more powerful bass with less effort from the sub...something my single 675 or even dual 675 combo may not be able to provide. I'm rambling...I'll be sure to audition the 800 line of subs soon.

[Karma]

HI Texas,
BTW, I lived in Houston for 11 years during the Apollo program. Good job; nasty weather!

I'll get to your question later. I don't have the time now. I just wanted to remind you to take your own, well known, recordings to the listening sessions. And be very careful that the volume levels are the same from test to test. If they are not, the results can be completely misleading.

Sparky

[kurtholz]

Hi Kurt,
You make me laugh you KRELL guy!!!!! You want to convert us all into Krellaholics!!
Thanks for your response and keep in touch as usual.
Chau,
Chinets

hahahhaha, i bought 10,000 shares of there stock, trying to pump up sales

:-)

You are headed to music nirvana, if i could just get that darn weak link out of your system, you will be there

:-)

warm regards

Kurt

[caleb]

Karma,
I'm with you all the way on this one.
I managed to get a Servo15 sub to add to my ASW850, and the results were so good I couldn't beleive it.

So now I am looking for a used 850 so that the WAF becomes more manageable - but can I find one here in Bongoland - not so far so I will have to look a little wider afield.

[chinets]

Karma,
Thanks for your comments. You were so lucky that day you got the Sub from your dealer, and then getting a Sub of the net in good condition. I loved your story on how you got your second Sub and your trip of 250 miles to get it.
I think a lot of people feel the same way you do and are so eager and enthusiastic to improve their musical systems. Impressive!!!
You will be the first to know how it sounds I can assure you.Thanks!!!!
So another Krell guy out there HMMMMMMM!!!!!!!!
I really hope the ASW 850 I have will match the tone of the New ASW 855 I am getting. Rohacell or not the dealer said it will be good??? Any comments there??
I have no choice but to have the ASW 855 because as i stated earlier the ASW 850 has been discontinued and it is very hard to get a second hand item here especially in good condition.
Have a wondeful day to you,
Thanks for all your kind help Karma,
Best wishes,
Chinets

[chinets]

Kurt,
That weak link is the Krell in you....Just kidding!!!!!
Have a nice Krell day pal!!!! Try a Rotel to improve your system it won't hurt you!!!!!
Chau,
Chinets

[Karma]

HI chinets,
If I had not lucked out I would have bought the 825. If fact, I almost did. The mismatch I heard was really picking nits. If I didn't know the 825 was there I'm not at all sure I would have heard any mismatch at all. Actually, I thought the 825 was slightly better than the 800. I just wanted the two subs to be matched for no particular good reason. I'm sure you will be happy with your combo.

Sparky

[chinets]

Thanks Karma for your good wishes and comments.
Best wishes to you,
Chinets

[BlazeMaster]

that's a HUGE room though, not sure if a 15 in. would satisfy you. Have you thought about trying out a 18 incher, like the Velodyne DD18?

[chinets]

BlazeMaster,
Actually NO!!, Because I was told that one must get the SUB from the same makers of your speaker system so that they have the same tone and timber that fits perfectly with the rest of the speakers.
B&W don't make 18 inchers so I guess the 15 Inch and 2 of them will do quite well??? or Not????? I also heard Velodyne DD18 do not match well with B&W?? Is that so??? Because there is also Krell that do great SUBS but might not match B&W either?? Right??

[Karma]

HI chinets,
I agree strongly with your approach. We are lucky to have bought main speakers from a company that also makes good subwoofers. In my case it was not luck. I specifically chose B&W because I knew I could do a decent job with speaker integration. I was more concerned with integration than ultimate bass extension.

Here is the scene I imagine. B&W engineers, with dark circles under their eyes from their long hours of work, have a new subwoofer design ready for voicing and integration tests. They are concerned with how well their new babies will work with full range speakers. Would they go out and buy, for example, Polk speakers to do their integration tests? I think not! No, they will test their subs with every target speaker in the B&W line.

If they hear problems, they will adjust the design. Will they base their changes on how well the subs do with Infinities? No, they don't care. It's with B&W speakers they care about.

Finally, they are satisfied and are ready to demo their baby to company management. Will they use KEF's for the mains? No, not if they want to keep their job. They will use B&W's.

The big Velodyne's can produce impressive deep bass at high volume. Here's the catch. I have never (important word) heard Velodyne's integrate well with main speakers of any brand. This is why I have never considered buying Velodyne's though I do like their deep bass.

[chinets]

Hi, Karma,
I agree with you 100%. You make perfect sense.
Thanks for your comments with appreciation.
Best wishes,
Chinets