Upgrade Speakers or Separates?

[LikeCoiledSteel]

Or you can just sell all your gear, get a Bose wave radio and use the leftover $ to buy a new corvette ZO7.

[RebelMan]

Depends on your budget and your craving to upgrade. Maybe the 803D or 802D would be enough for you. Not sure.

Then again, unless we are talking Omnicron from classe, aren't we just inching the classe side as well?

One has to draw the line somewhere. The CA-M400 is the top dog in the Classe' Delta series. From that perspective it's not an inch but a whole foot. :lol: Technically the 800D is not the top end B&W either but it is in the 800 Series.

[JKalman]

One has to draw the line somewhere. The CA-M400 is the top dog in the Classe' Delta series. From that perspective it's not an inch but a whole foot. :lol: Technically the 800D is not the top end B&W either but it is in the 800 Series.

I am saving for an amp for my 802Ds which I will probably buy in 8-12 months from now. My limit is around 10k. Would you recommend the CA-M400 over the McIntosh 501s? I know my 802Ds are very neutral so I want to add amps that will add some more musicality to my setup with the Ayre C-5xe. I'll start a thread on this topic soon enough, but curious what people think off the top of their heads, or if they recommend something else.

[DrJRapp]

curious what people think off the top of their heads, or if they recommend something else.

If you can get to demo the NuForce Ref9s, I would. They do things for the B&W's that are beyond description and defy logic. JimmyP58 is the man to talk to about demo of those amps.

[JKalman]

They have a 30 day money back guarantee. I guess I could always order 4 when the time comes and if they don't blow me away return them. If they sound as good as you and the reviews say, I'll also save a lot of money.

[RebelMan]

I am saving for an amp for my 802Ds which I will probably buy in 8-12 months from now. My limit is around 10k. Would you recommend the CA-M400 over the McIntosh 501s?

Sorry Jeff, I wish I could offer an opinion between the two but I haven't heard the McIntosh lineup so I would be biased in my reply if I did. Apparently they make great sounding equipment from those that say they have heard them. For me, as shallow as this may sound, I am not into the whole nostalgic look of the macs. It's gotta look good AND sound good to earn my seal of approval. Sorry.

[RebelMan]

If switching amps are on tap, also consider the BelCanto eOne REF 1000's. They were one of the few amplifiers that impressed me when I heard them at CES.

[JKalman]

If switching amps are on tap, also consider the BelCanto eOne REF 1000's. They were one of the few amplifiers that impressed me when I heard them at CES.

The Ayre preamp/amp combo and Wilson Watt/Puppy system that I demoed the Ayre C-5xe on was amazing sounding. I'm really loving the gear that Ayre makes, even though the amp wasn't tremendously powerful, it didn't faulter at all playing the music I brought with me for testing and it separated out the different instruments in the recordings so well, I almost panicked, knowing that I will need to get my system to that level before I can truly be satisfied. It had dimensionality and dynamics I have not been able to get out of my system so far. When I get the C-5xe in I will see how much it changes my setup and then think about checking out their amp next.

I was so pleased by the sound of the system they had setup in their demo room, I was tempted to sell my sports car and buy the whole thing. I'm still contemplating it... After all, I can enjoy the Lotus perhaps 7-8 months out of the year if I am lucky, while the stereo system I can enjoy every day of the year. I just hope it wasn't the speakers that made the system sound so incredible, since they are the same price as the 800Ds which I can't afford in the near future, though I am considering saving for a used pair down the road when I am ready to expand my system to surround sound.

[JKalman]

Sorry Jeff, I wish I could offer an opinion between the two but I haven't heard the McIntosh lineup so I would be biased in my reply if I did. Apparently they make great sounding equipment from those that say they have heard them. For me, as shallow as this may sound, I am not into the whole nostalgic look of the macs. It's gotta look good AND sound good to earn my seal of approval. Sorry.

I have to agree on the look of the McIntosh equipment, it is so different looking it would stick out like a soar thumb surrounded by the rest of my gear.

[RobP]

I have heard the Macs paired up with B&W, it sounded really good, but........... I just cant get over that 1970's look. They should really consider a new line to draw in a different customer base, IMO MACs sales are somewhat driven by nostalgia.

[jlee]

Ii agree with Steel. 803S' are nice speakers and maybe you need to catch up in the power/source area. The 1098 is a super processor for HT and so easy to handle for programming needs. I'm not familiar with Classe's processor so I can't weigh in there. I like Classe Amplification more than Rotel.

Maybe Classe Amplificationa and Rotel Processor 1098

That's what I'm running right now... I would have to say the 1098 is the weak link... it only outputs 1.2V so right there, it is not taking advantage of the Classe amps above 200W... because most of the CLasse 300W and above require 1.5V for max output...

I also found a huge improvement when moving from Rotel to Classe power amps... and I would assume the preamps should provide the same level of improvement.

To Rebelman, I would definitely go with 803S and Classe gear than with 800D and Rotel gear... no brainer there!

[jlee]

I would say that Rotel should not be used for anything above the 700 series.

Based on my extensive experience with Rotel, the 700 and 800 series, and Classe... I would have to say:

Rotel sounds good with the 700 series and also the 805 or SCM from the 800 series... I would recommend Classe for 804 and above if used in strictly 2 chanel, but high end Rotel (1068 or 1098 pre/pro and RB-1080 or RB-1090 or RMB-1095 ams) with 804 and 803 is also "acceptable" if used in combined 5 channel and 2 channel setups... Rotel has no business being paired with 802 and above either in 2 channel or 5 channel setups IMHO.

[Karma]

HI jlee,
Ah, Rotel and the 805S; the eternal question. I think your statement is based strictly on price matching. I auditioned Rotel and Krell on the 805S's I bought. The differences between the amps were obvious. I bought the Krell. You see, all the 800 sereis speakers have excellent tweeters. There was no covering up Rotel's grainy high end. It's not terrible but it is easy to justify the better amp with the 805's.

I follow the path of better amplification. Price matching, I think, is false ecomomy. Obviously, there are limits but this decision does not exceed those. The 805 is plenty good enough to expect top level sound. And they deliver! I think you would be impressed with my 805S/Krell combo. Is the Krell amp (and preamp) worth the added cost? Yes, definitely yes.

I think the 805S's are underappreciated on this forum. They really are great speakers. They just don't go deep or fill large spaces. The bass is easily solved with a good (or two as in my case) subwoofer. The space limitation is also easily solved. Use them in small spaces as the designers intended. They image, soundstage and do detail as well as any cone based loudspeaker I have heard and that includes the remainder of the 800 series.

The 805S's just don't get any respect.

Sparky

[Pieter]

Rotel has no business being paired with 802 and above either in 2 channel or 5 channel setups IMHO.

Do you think this will change with the up and coming 500W monoblock?

[stewfoo]

Do you think this will change with the up and coming 500W monoblock?

nope. It is still A "Value" piece.... I feel even stronger about upgrading electronics first now. Today, I had some spare time and dropped in in loaf around my dealer's place and walked in on a guy that was testing out the Cary tube cd player. I was looking at a wall of B&W, Dynaudio, and Martin Logan speakers. I could not tell which speakers were playing. But, it sounded great. They were playing some jazz pieces from the "sound experience" demo cd. Well the system was comprised of the following:
Cary cd player, Mcintosh preamp, Mcintosh 200w stereo amp, B&W DM604 speakers...

Yes 600 series speakers $1400/pr retail. I know that the electronics made it beautiful. It really did impress on me the importance of good electronics and the benefit that they have on the total system.

I PLEAD WITH YOU!!! UPGRADE ELECTRONICS FIRST!!!!! lol I hate this hobby. I think i should just go back to cocaine. Its alot less expensive. Good luck and happy hunting!

[JKalman]

I PLEAD WITH YOU!!! UPGRADE ELECTRONICS FIRST!!!!! lol I hate this hobby. I think i should just go back to cocaine. Its alot less expensive. Good luck and happy hunting!

Ack! :E I don't think your nose would appreciate you trying to snort an amplifier.

[RebelMan]

I think the 805S's are underappreciated on this forum. They really are great speakers. They just don't go deep or fill large spaces. The bass is easily solved with a good (or two as in my case) subwoofer. The space limitation is also easily solved. Use them in small spaces as the designers intended. They image, soundstage and do detail as well as any cone based loudspeaker I have heard and that includes the remainder of the 800 series.

The 805S's just don't get any respect.

Sure they do! For home theater only applications I could think of nothing better than an array of 805S's and/or their faternal twins the HTM4S and SCMS's. But for music, the 805's just cannot pass the muster that its bigger brothers can.

In a perfect world we would have a solitary driver capable of reproducing the entire audiable range of frequencies. But this is the real world and in the real world there is just no getting around the fact that some drivers are more capable at reproducing certain frequencies than are others. As good as the midrange/bass driver of the 805S is at performing double duty, it is still at best a compromise compared to the dedicated roles of the FST and Rohacell drivers found in the rest of the 800 line.

[RebelMan]

I PLEAD WITH YOU!!! UPGRADE ELECTRONICS FIRST!!!!!

You needn't worry stewfoo, I intend to do just that!

[sikoniko]

When Kal reviewed the 802d's, he used the classe omega omnicron (which is even better than the cam 400) and the bel canto's along with others, but found those 2 to be the best matchups...

[stewfoo]

You needn't worry stewfoo, I intend to do just that!

LOL... Its your call man.. I just think 800D's would be funny with Rotel gear behind it. I would bet that the 5200 or CA-m400 with 803s would sound better than the 800d with a rotel amp. This is all a great way for all of us to help each other find what we are looking for, musical nirvana. Either way, I wanna hear it once its done!
:T

[PavelL]

nope. It is still A "Value" piece.... I feel even stronger about upgrading electronics first now. Today, I had some spare time and dropped in in loaf around my dealer's place and walked in on a guy that was testing out the Cary tube cd player. I was looking at a wall of B&W, Dynaudio, and Martin Logan speakers. I could not tell which speakers were playing. But, it sounded great. They were playing some jazz pieces from the "sound experience" demo cd. Well the system was comprised of the following:
Cary cd player, Mcintosh preamp, Mcintosh 200w stereo amp, B&W DM604 speakers...

Yes 600 series speakers $1400/pr retail. I know that the electronics made it beautiful. It really did impress on me the importance of good electronics and the benefit that they have on the total system.

I PLEAD WITH YOU!!! UPGRADE ELECTRONICS FIRST!!!!! lol I hate this hobby. I think i should just go back to cocaine. Its alot less expensive. Good luck and happy hunting!

I'm just curious if the dealer's demo room was acoustically treated. Some of us tend to forget that one of the MOST important component of any system is THE room. Some really nice components placed in a particular room will sound horrible... I'd say the #1 component is the ROOM. :W Having said that I fully agree with the electronics part.

[RebelMan]

I'm just curious if the dealer's demo room was acoustically treated. Some of us tend to forget that one of the MOST important component of any system is THE room. Some really nice components placed in a particular room will sound horrible... I'd say the #1 component is the ROOM. :W Having said that I fully agree with the electronics part.

PavelL, technically it all starts with the recording. I think between the two choices I proposed, stewfoo's suggestion was meant that I would be better off with better electronics than better speakers. The room was a fixed variable in this case and it was assumed to be a non-issue. Having said that, I agree with you that the room is an important ingredient in the AV system recipe.

Assumptions

1. AV preferences are 50/50.
2. No further upgrades for five years.
3. Room is ideal and not a consideration.
4. Costs for either upgrade are virtually the same.

[PavelL]

PavelL, technically it all starts with the recording. I think between the two choices I proposed, stewfoo's suggestion was meant that I would be better off with better electronics than better speakers. The room was a fixed variable in this case and it was assumed to be a non-issue. Having said that, I agree with you that the room is an important ingredient in the AV system recipe.

:W I just felt like responding to the PLEADS. Hope I did not "hijack" your thread by doing this. Speaking of your choices. IMHO it all comes down to the SPEAKERS. Provided you have enough dough, room... to buy them AND the amps that WILL drive them to their max. Tough choice if you have other variables to consider. Further upgrades, resale value or whatever...

As you say "just my 0.02"

[RebelMan]

:W I just felt like responding to the PLEADS. Hope I did not "hijack" your thread by doing this.

Not at all. I welcome all input. Thanks! :T

Agreed, speakers are a big component. Especially the 800D's! :lol:

[jim777]

:W I just felt like responding to the PLEADS. Hope I did not "hijack" your thread by doing this. Speaking of your choices. IMHO it all comes down to the SPEAKERS. Provided you have enough dough, room... to buy them AND the amps that WILL drive them to their max. Tough choice if you have other variables to consider. Further upgrades, resale value or whatever...

As you say "just my 0.02"

Are you saying that Rotel makes the best possible amplifiers for a given power rating...?

In my experience, the difference between Rotel and McIntosh was big enough that I wouldn't have bought a "FST" B&W without a McIntosh... is was unbearable! (for me)

I maintain the amp upgrade instead of the speaker upgrade :twisted:

Just my .00002

[misterdoggy]

I maintain the amp upgrade instead of the speaker upgrade :twisted:

Just my .00002

Exactly my sentiments too ;x(

[PewterTA]

Hmm you buy the speakers, hook them up to what you have now... Now you know the weakness in your system (amp) and what 'strengths' to look for in a new amp once you start searching... Then you get the amp and get to enjoy the better sound of having it all complete, vs. jumping up totally.

Course this can go for buying a better amp, it is bound to make your current speakers sound better...

If you are really worried about something like the 1095 driving the 800s (whichever they be)...use the extra channels to bi-amp them (psuedo)... that way you're pushing a clean 200watts to the bass, and 200watts to the mid/highs. Should make them sound a little bit better.

Either way if you take the longer route, you might benefit... If you know for certain the 802Ds are your "finishing point" for speakers, then as new amps come out and sound better and better, you can find out exactly what you want. Maybe Classe isn't the sound you're looking for and the new Rotel analog switching amps give your ears a better sound (just purely hypothetical)...or even Classe comes out with some really nice amps that work out better for you.

To me, the speakers are worth getting first, then build the system around that foundation.

Sorry if it sounds like rambling, I tend to try to look at everything, from every possible angle (which if I wrote all that down, would take up the rest of the webserver's space LOL).

[Jeff]

The speaker upgrade is the way to go. A friend of mine has N803's connected to Classe cp-500, ca-2200 and cdp-100. We listened to jazz mostly.

Once I arrive back home I listened to the same cd using my N802's, Rotel 1072 cd player, Proceed Amp 3 and a Sony 777es pre/pro. I'm thankful to say my system provided a better balance.

Since I was out classed on the equipment side I can only attribute it to the N802's. :T

Once you purchase the 800D's, the electronic upgrades will be financially more manageable. More importantly, you can do this one piece at a time.

Jeff

[RebelMan]

There was a lot of good input given to this thread and I appreciate everyone's participation. I finally came to a decision a few weeks ago to upgrade (drum roll)... to separates. It took a while and I deliberated about it for some time before making a decision but in the end it turned out to be the best one to make at this time.

As much as I wanted to upgrade my speakers to the 800D's I was afraid that my existing system would limit their full potential and I would be right. I spent enough time listening to the 800D's smaller brother, the 802D's, with both Rotel's (top end 10 series system) and Classe's (mid range Delta series system) in several side-by-side comparisons so I knew what the compromises were going to be.

Realizing this I decided that I would be happier (for the longer run) by squeezing the most from the speakers that I have now than I would be by getting only mediocre performance out of the 800D's. Even though the 800D's would have been an improvement, the thought that they would be capable of so much more would continue to linger in the back of my mind and I would rather concentrate on something else, like ahhh... the music!

I discovered by the end of this trek that there's really not much more that my 803S's could do given the direction I took. I found the combination of the B&W 800 Series with Classe' Delta Series far more complimentary then I did Rotel, and other brands I had in mind. However, I don't think I would have had any regrets had I gone the other way. At least now I know I have a system that can satisfy my musical appetite today and will be ready for the 800D's tomorrow. :B

[Kobus]

Wonderfull Rebelman.

I will get there one day. In the mean time I will enjoy the ride.
BTW, what is the destination again.

Enjoy

Kobus

[caleb]

There aren't many of us Capetonians on this forum, but we do agree on some things.

[Fraise]

Upgrade my 803S's to the 800D's OR upgrade my Rotel lineup for the Classe' lineup above?

If i were in your shoes i would opt to go with classe electronics but leave the B&W lineup in favor of the martin logan summits. In my experience i would say they are superior to the 800Ds but priced less than 802Ds.

[RebelMan]

Wonderfull Rebelman.

I will get there one day. In the mean time I will enjoy the ride.
BTW, what is the destination again.

Thanks Kobus. The destination is Puerto Nirvana via Classe' Way through B&W Boulevard. :roflmao:

All kidding aside, I would like to power a pair 800D's with a CDP-202, CP-700 and twin CA-M400s for two-channel sources. I am sill on the prowl for an multi-channel upgrade for Home Theater but for now my trusty Rotel will do.

The ride is half the fun of getting there! :T

[RebelMan]

If i were in your shoes i would opt to go with classe electronics but leave the B&W lineup in favor of the martin logan summits. In my experience i would say they are superior to the 800Ds but priced less than 802Ds.

I was at a private function this past weekend where a dealer was holding a special McIntosh presentation. He has a pair of Summits on his showroom floor but they weren't connected in time for the demo. I intend to go back in about a month to hear them. The Summits would have to be more than superior if I were to ever defect. Based on appearances alone I find the B&W's more pleasing to the eye. There's just something about wooden veneer cabinets that I favor over metal mesh screens.

[ShadowZA]

RebelMan, you've captained your ship through the rough and turbulent seas of decision-making. You've defeated the gaggle of terrifying sea creatures attempting to drag your ship and crew into the murky depths below. And ... you have won. :T

Rest easy as you hoist sail for the Island of Bliss nestled in the Bay of Tranquility.

You've made the correct decision. Congrats!

[devils&dust]

I am little astonished about the considering the Classé as the ultimate gear. i have auditioned a lot of different components and many other cheaper amps would do the same for 803s.

:B

Please do not kill me, but what about marantz or creek components? I found out that for these speakers they sound fantastic! :E

Try to hear them and be objective! :T

I also think that staying with your 803s will be the better decision, they also ldo not lose so much worth, so one time, in some years you can trade em in?
Then the techology of speakers will also improve and you can switch to new B&Ws which might be better than the top end 800s at "low" money! :lol: :lol:

[Fraise]

I was at a private function this past weekend where a dealer was holding a special McIntosh presentation. He has a pair of Summits on his showroom floor but they weren't connected in time for the demo. I intend to go back in about a month to hear them. The Summits would have to be more than superior if I were to ever defect. Based on appearances alone I find the B&W's more pleasing to the eye. There's just something about wooden veneer cabinets that I favor over metal mesh screens.

I guess the appearance is a personal choice. I find the B&W's above the 803's to be somewhat ugly but thats me. I would say go back and audition the summits but keep your eyes closed when you make a decision

[JKalman]

I was at a private function this past weekend where a dealer was holding a special McIntosh presentation. He has a pair of Summits on his showroom floor but they weren't connected in time for the demo. I intend to go back in about a month to hear them. The Summits would have to be more than superior if I were to ever defect. Based on appearances alone I find the B&W's more pleasing to the eye. There's just something about wooden veneer cabinets that I favor over metal mesh screens.

Considering your space limitations, the Summits would be an easier fit, especially since they can be placed closer to walls without as many problems. There are also people modifying the Magnepan MG 20.1 speakers, which would be a good fit in a smaller space.

[RebelMan]

Considering your space limitations, the Summits would be an easier fit, especially since they can be placed closer to walls without as many problems.

Phyically speaking this maybe true. But then I would have to contend with positioning the Summits more so than the 800D's as a result of their dipolar design and the fact that I have windows sitting right behind where the speakers would sit.

[RebelMan]

I guess the appearance is a personal choice. I find the B&W's above the 803's to be somewhat ugly but thats me. I would say go back and audition the summits but keep your eyes closed when you make a decision

Fair enough.

[JKalman]

Phyically speaking this maybe true. But then I would have to contend with positioning the Summits more so than the 800D's as a result of their dipolar design and the fact that I have windows sitting right behind where the speakers would sit.

Ewww. You could always build a window plug and use it when you will do critical listening. That is what I was planning on doing until I decided to just pay for Phase 2 Rives consulting. In the mean time I am using a very heavy window curtain.

[stewfoo]

Wow James! I did not realize you actually took the plunge. Congrats and welcome to the Arizona Classe team! I read your review comparing Classe to Ayre. I think you nailed it; the noise floor of Classe is definitely a change from what I was used to. I could not be happier with my system... Well, I think my second Velodyne DD-18 needs to be added for HT and my p-diddy style parties. LOL
Any pics of your system yet???
Stew

[RebelMan]

Hey Stew, I took the plunge and it happened to be one of the best decisions I made with my system. The upgrade has made a significant impact to soundstaging, imaging, dynamics and resolution. It was literally a two-fold improvement over my Rotel system which is quite remarkable. Rotel is still considered, by me and many hifi experts, to be an accomplished musical performer and one of the best values in the entry level high-end arena. (Checkout the latest shootout in the May/June 2006 issue of The Perfect Vision for another demonstration of their prowess).

I was recently thumbing through Classe's 2006 catalog and in the back they discuss their philosophy of building great entertainment systems. It discusses systems that are free from grain and harshness sound clearer and more lifelike and can be enjoyed for hours without fatigue (unlike what I detected with the Ayre system I reviewed). It discusses the importance of systems creating convincing illusionary soundstaging rather than studio based reproductions (which was another disenchanted Ayre characteristic that I found). It also discusses other matters involving musicality, the qualities of recordings and the varieties of genre but I was drawn in particular to this excerpt regarding their properties of (as they put it) Remarkable Sound ...

"As an overall goal, we try to avoid having our equipment draw attention to itself by over- or under-emphasizing any particular part of the audio spectrum. A system that’s too bass heavy or too lean, one that’s overly bright or dark sounding, or one with too much or too little midrange presence tends to favor some recordings over others. The result is that only a small portion of one’s recording collection sounds close to being right. A Classé system is balanced throughout the full range of the audio spectrum, so you can enjoy the full range of recordings available."

I would say this statement summarizes and encapsulates my impressions of Classe' perfectly and I was quite impressed to read these statements after my numerous listening sessions with Classe' and personally witness their ability to fully realize their design goals and objectives. 8)

By the way, I just had two 20 amp circuits installed which required that I disassemble my entire system. After I make a few repairs and touch-ups to the walls I will reassemble my system for pictures which I hope to have completed by week's end.

[sikoniko]

Rebelman,

how do you think a mix n match of amps would fair? due to costs, I am heavily considering the bryston 9b (which I know you and jkalman went back and forth about) for my surrounds, and the 5200 for the front 3 channels. This approach would save me about $2k. what are your opinions? there isn't much info on the 9b sst available, review wise.

[stewfoo]

Rebelman,

how do you think a mix n match of amps would fair? due to costs, I am heavily considering the bryston 9b (which I know you and jkalman went back and forth about) for my surrounds, and the 5200 for the front 3 channels. This approach would save me about $2k. what are your opinions? there isn't much info on the 9b sst available, review wise.

Would you be biamping the mains? I use the 3200 for my front three (803s, htm3s) and Classe gear really made a huge difference. I thought i was getting the most out of my 803s.. But, sounds like Rebelman is proving me wrong.

If you decide to upgrade those speakers to 802d or the summits you wrote about, then I will take your 803s for my rears.. woohoo.

By the way, Just added a second Velodyne dd-18 for HT...... It is gonna ROCK!!!
Stew