Upgrade Speakers or Separates?

[RebelMan]

I find myself caught in a peculiar situation. I am in the position to upgrade either my speakers or my equipment but not both. It would be considered a maxed out upgrade for one of the two options and either would produce results that are equally satisfying.

I had several opportunities to audition B&W speakers with Rotel and Classe' equipment. Although I am happy with the performance of my system as it now stands, I have heard better from other B&W/Rotel and B&W/Classe' combinations. For instance, I have heard B&W's 803S's with Classe's CDP-300, SSP-300 and CA-5200. I have also heard B&W's 802D's with Rotel's RDV-1060, RSP-1098 and RMB-1095. Each combination had its component strength that brought out the best the other part had to offer. Neither combination was better than the other, only different. If you were put into this situation what would you do? Why?

Upgrade my 803S's to the 800D's OR upgrade my Rotel lineup for the Classe' lineup above?

Assumptions

1. AV preferences are 50/50.
2. No further upgrades for five years.
3. Room is ideal and not a consideration.
4. Costs for either upgrade are virtually the same.

[LikeCoiledSteel]

I think that the Rotel - Classe is the best route. The 803's are very capable speakers. Your Rotels are probably your weak point. If you decide to go with the 800D's, you will be forced to upgrade the amps anyway.
Steel

[misterdoggy]

Ii agree with Steel. 803S' are nice speakers and maybe you need to catch up in the power/source area. The 1098 is a super processor for HT and so easy to handle for programming needs. I'm not familiar with Classe's processor so I can't weigh in there. I like Classe Amplification more than Rotel.

Maybe Classe Amplificationa and Rotel Processor 1098

[Rolex]

Well, the price difference between the 803's and the 800 D's is about 14,500 dollars US. I've got to believe that you can upgrade to Classe AND upgrade to 803D for about the same amount of money as going from 803S to 800D..

[RobP]

I would agree with Steel and Doggy, The 803's are a very capable speaker. The Classe combo will take your current setup to another level. Ask your dealer to let you take the Classe system home for the wekend and give it a go on your home. If you are planning on spending that kind of cash, he should have no problem letting you audition both systems in your home.

[grit]

Hmm, I gotta say, I don't know what you're current equipment is...? I'd agree (in general) with what everyone else here has pointed out - The 803's probaby have room left in them to do more with better electronics. I'd start there (assuming your current electronics are not Krell, etc.)

[EAmin]

Ii agree with Steel. 803S' are nice speakers and maybe you need to catch up in the power/source area. The 1098 is a super processor for HT and so easy to handle for programming needs. I'm not familiar with Classe's processor so I can't weigh in there. I like Classe Amplification more than Rotel.

Maybe Classe Amplificationa and Rotel Processor 1098

I like this idea. My idea would be similar, but more expensive.

I would keep the 1098 for HT and get the following classe gear:

(2) CAM400s - 10K
CDP-300 - 6.5K
CA-3200 - 6K (or you can save money and keep the 1095 for your other 3 channels)
CP-500 Pre - 3.5K

Keep your 1098 and hook up the single ended connections to your classe amps. Then hook up the CP-500 stereo pre balanced connections to the CAM-400s.

Balanced and Single-Ended (from www.classeaudio.com)
All Classé amplifiers provide for both balanced (XLR) and single-ended (RCA) inputs. The LEDs on the front panel tell not only the number of channels, but also their mode of operation. Unlike other designs, Classé amplifiers allow both single-ended and balanced connections to be made simultaneously. For example, the user may choose to connect balanced inputs for the left and right channels of a high-end preamp, while the single-ended connections for these channels are connected to a surround processor. The different inputs can then be selected from the front panel, or by RS-232 via PC or an external control system.

To me this is the best of both worlds -- great HT and AWESOME 2-channel. Plus, you'll probably replace your processor anyway in the next couple of years. No need to upgrade when you got a very capable 1098.

I wouldn't get the 800Ds. Save the money and get 802Ds with an HTM2D. Although 800Ds would be the ultimate, 802s are great too.

You can sell/trade your 803S/HTM3S and Rotel gear to offset the additional classe purchases.

Good luck.

[Fife]

Upgrading your Rotel amp would be my first option.

[jim777]

Definitely upgrade your Rotel. I never heard Classé but my dealer yes and he would tell you to go for McIntosh.

What source do you have? That is also *very* important.

I have a MA6500, RCD1072 and 703's. It is a very well balanced IMO. I might upgrade my source to a Mc soon though.

If you upgrade your electronics, your system will be very well balanced and the only upgrade you will want after that is some HD source-thingy in 5 years when it will be more mainstream

[RobP]

Rebelman, after doing what I did tonight I can definitely say upgrade to the Classe first. ;x(
I purchased a preowned Classe CA-101 a few days ago, I wanted to compare my Rotel 100W per Channel amp with a the same power rated Classe amplifier. I went with the older series because of my budget.

It arrived today and I hooked it up using my Rotel RSX1065 as a pre-amp. Right from the start I noticed a HUGE difference for the better over the Rotel, gone was the slight brightness, the bass is VERY controlled and powerful, the soundstage is wider than it was before, and the depth is unreal. I didn't know that these speakers had it in them. Now I know that the CA-101 is not the best amp that Classe makes, but even this amp is a big step up from the Rotel, I can only imagine what a new CA-2200 would do. :T

[RebelMan]

I really can't say that I am surprised by the direction that this is going. It's still a tough choice to make between top-end gear or top-end speakers. I know my existing Rotel gear (RCD-1072/RDV-1050, RSX-1056 and RB-1080) is not going to make the most of the 800D's, but then again I am not expecting it to. I also know that the Classe' system would take my 803S's to the extreme.

I have heard both so I am pretty familure with what each can do and what each sound like. The gains made from either approach will be different but I suspect the net results would be about the same in the end (to me), musically speaking. As such this situation becomes a matter of which step to take based less on technical reasons and more on practical ones.

How likely are YOU to upgrade a pair of reference class speakers versus high-end electronics? Speakers do improve with time but not to the extend that the equipment does. Agreed? Assumimg that I never upgrade the upgrade, would your choices still be the same?

I believe I would be equally happy with either approach knowing what the particular set of pros and cons are for each senario. Still, I wanted to know how the people of this forum would handle the same situation if one was presented.

I still have time to make up my mind. Until I do, I hope more people weigh in.

[RebelMan]

Hey SG, I caught you post just after I made mine. Yeah, Classe' rocks with the 803's no doubt. Rotel, bless them, are just out Classe'd ( pun ) But the 800D's out class the 803S's too, right, or maybe not??? Someone shoot me! :lol:

[RebelMan]

Well, the price difference between the 803's and the 800 D's is about 14,500 dollars US. I've got to believe that you can upgrade to Classe AND upgrade to 803D for about the same amount of money as going from 803S to 800D..

This is true, but wouldn't it be wiser to max out one end of the spectrum and upgrade the lesser later then it would be to inch up both sides at the same time?

Please indulge me people while I play devil's advocate. :twisted:

[SRT-10 Viper]

I went from N802 to 800Ds determined to never upgrade my speakers again... I have since added better amps, meridian HT/G68 (after Denon 5805 then Anthem D1), 2 Channel... 2 different CD players. My point is you'll continue to change the electronics, If you get the best speakers (assuming you like B&W) you'll keep them for a long time.

[RobP]

This whole audio thing will make you crazy if you let it, The 800ds would be nice, but lets say you get the 800D's and eventually all of the Classe equipment to boot, where do you go from there? Will you have reached a place that you will be happy with?
Is it the destination or the journey that drives you in this quest? I ask myself that question every time I buy a new toy.

[grit]

Heheh, Soundgravy may have hit the nail on the head.

I got to hear 803S's vs Aerial 7b's via a Rotel 1095 and a Classe CA-5100 (100 wpc). I was FLOORED when we switched amps. FLOORED! Now, in all fairness, I'll say up front the Classe 100 watts didn't have quite enough power to handle the 803S's. The bottom end got a bit soft and lean. But OH THE SOUND STAGE, THE DETAIL, THE IMAGING! The solution of course - Classe CA-5200 (200 wpc). OH YA GOTTA GET IT.

Rebel, I'm not sure what your current amp is, but what I learned is that (as we all know already), not enough power just KILLS your speakers. I'd hate to have nice speakers and not enough power to drive them. *I* decided that I will NOT be upgrading until I can at least get the Rotel 1095 to go with 'em, because as beautiful as the mids and highs sounded on the Classe, 100 wpc (which is what my current Rotel has) will NOT make the 803S's (or the Aerials) sound good enough for me to be satisfied. Personally, I'd rather have my 703's with enough power than the 803S's running underpowered.

[stewfoo]

Rebel, I say get the 800D's and run them with your Rotel 1095. But, make sure you Bi-amp!! lol Abbey roads is biamping them with2 Ca-m400's each. So, for a pair of properly amplified800d's for 2ch you are talkin' $40k not inluding source and processor. Where is the end to this madness,.... ???

[RebelMan]

Viper and SG both have good points and it is the very crux of my problem that I am contending with. Sometimes it is the destination and sometimes it is the trip that drives me. Ultimately, I would like to find myself in paradise. From my point of view there are two ways to get there. I guess my biggest concern is what will I be, or want to be, left with when I finally arrive. Speakers in need of some new components or components in need of some new speakers? :roll:

Think of this thread as the map of my trip and you all here to help me with directions. :B

[RebelMan]

grit, what source and pre-amplifier was used in your comparisons?

Don't think I haven't thought about that stewfoo.

[Kobus]

rebelman, I think the destination will be the same. 800 + classe xxx. How to get there. I get the feeling you would like to go speakers first.

Two things.
1. besides the sound improvements of path a over path b, I think another factor is just to have those 800's, the look of them, the feeling that it creates in you when you see them etc. there presence.

2. the speakers will be tops for 10+ years. the electronics will not. and in a couple of years, where will we be with digital amplification.

ENJOY THE RIDE

[Pieter]

The 800D is a world class speaker, which I'm sure you'll be happy with. "Upgrading" from it would be moot and largely driven by very particular and preferred taste concerns.

It is common practice to find the speaker you like...then the amp to drive them. Not the other way around; you're not tailoring your setup around a 2W SET amp...

Build it around the 800D.

[grit]

grit, what source and pre-amplifier was used in your comparisons?

Don't think I haven't thought about that stewfoo.

Just a Rotel 1098, Rotel 1060 DVD, and the aforementioned Rote 1095 and Classe CA-5100.

[Karma]

HI Rebel,
No contest really. Upgrade your amps. The 803's are definitely good enough to take advantage of the better signal.

However, I must give you a warning. Once you hear the improvements, you will be driven to the 800's, budget be damned! It's a cosmic law!!! I have found that everytime I make a major upgrade to one portion of my system it is inevitable that upgrades will ripple through the whole system. So, don't be thinking about your 803's when you make the upgrade. Think 800's. It's your destiny so you might as well give in to it. 8O

If you don't want this to happen, stay put with what you have.

Sparky

[JKalman]

I picked "Other."

Sell your old speakers and amps (or trade them in). Buy 803Ds or 802Ds, but I think the 802Ds might be a little large for your space, buy a Classe amp or monoblocks, keep the Rotel preamp/processor for now. I have figured out that the all and nothing approach does not work well (all of one thing, nothing of another). If I went with the 800Ds I wouldn't have had decent amps or source equipment for them for a long long time, which is the same issue you are dealing with... It is better to sacrifice a little on everything (considering the law of diminishing returns) and have an incredible system rather one that could be the best too far down the road to be enjoyed in the present. After all, we could all be dead tomorrow, have to build something that works today.

BTW, I decided to keep the 802Ds and bought the Ayre C-5xe. Next on my list is either a 1080p TV with 1080p inputs or monoblocks. Once I get those monoblocks I'm done with my audio setup (well after I get surround speakers) for a long time.

[misterdoggy]

JKalman
How do you like that Ayre player ? Kicks butt don't it ?

I also believe to move up in increments not jump to the best in one area. It just won't sound great until everything is great

The chain will only sound as good as the weakest link will allow

[Ryx]

Hey Rebel,

I would have to say I agree with JKalman, if you can swing it upgrade your 803s to 802d and upgrade amp to classe leaving rotel for prepro dutie for now. This is the way I would go if I were in your situation, even if I hade to wait and save up a little more to do it.

If I couldn't afford to do that for some time then I would get the amp first and worry about speaker upgrades later. as is you have a very capable pair of speakers that can benifit from a classe amp.

I wish you good luck on your decision!

[JKalman]

JKalman
How do you like that Ayre player ? Kicks butt don't it ?

I also believe to move up in increments not jump to the best in one area. It just won't sound great until everything is great

The chain will only sound as good as the weakest link will allow

Loved it, but it is going to take a month for it to be built... Backordered.

[stewfoo]

WOW! I cant believe people are suggesting 800d's or even 802d's before amp upgrade. That would be hillarious to run these speakers on his 1095. Talkin' about polishing a terd. lol Dont get me wrong I loved the 1095 for what it was. But, even my 803s were overmatching the Rotel gear. I think I would puke if I saw an 800d with Rotel gear behind it.... and trust me I am no audiophile. Its like Buying a Ferrari and putting a mustang engine in it. While mustang 5.0 are fast and powerful, it is not meant for a ferrari. Lets get real now and put this into perspective and set parameters.
A.) Total Budget
B.) Gear that we can switch out. i.e. pre-proc, amp, and speakers...

This will allow us to compare apples to apples

[RebelMan]

Good feedback so far, thanks everyone.

I agree that a pair of 800D's driven by a Rotel RMB-1095 is not going to be an optimal solution. However, I have heard the 802D's and my 803S's powered by a RMB-1095 and found the 802D's to clearly sound better. How to quantify that improvement would be difficult to measure, its subjective after all. Still, it stands to reason that the 800D's would continue this trend utilizing the same equipment.

Technically Rotel's 200 wpc power amplifiers are very capable and they won't have any problems driving the 800D's modestly. While I'm not expecting them to run in the low tens, the high twelves is still very respectable.

Truthfully, does anyone think that the CA-5200 can do the 800D's justice? Looks like I would be in for a double upgrade in this case. Seems like I should shoot for something the likes of the CA-400M's to "eventually" power the 800D's, a costlier proposition. At $11,000 for a couple of CA-400M monoblocks and $6000.00 for triple-channel CA-3200 amplifier, for a 5.1 system, (not including the supporting cast of source and pre/pro) I could own a pair of 800D's instead.

Most advice, so far, seems to be upgrade the amp then the speakers then potentially the amp again. Wouldn't a speakers upgrade followed by an amp upgrade be a better approach?

[RebelMan]

Sell your old speakers and amps (or trade them in). Buy 803Ds or 802Ds, but I think the 802Ds might be a little large for your space,...

Thanks Jeff. I think I have a new solution that will mitigate the space limitation. I found a way to add two more feet to the width of the room. Now I am working with a 12x16 footer.

[Pieter]

Its like Buying a Ferrari and putting a mustang engine in it.

Not quite, the Ferrari comes with an engine as standard.
It's more like buying the best racing frame kit and shoving the 4 cylinder engine you currently own in it. It's only meant to get you round the track till you can afford that 12 cylinder engine in a year's time. Then everyone else will only see your tail lights.
You could keep your current chassis, buy a 10 cylinder engine and finish 2'nd or 3'rd. Be unsatisfied, buy that best frame and still have your butt kicked, for you've only got a 10 cylinder engine in there. Which will then have to be replaced with the 12 cylinder to satisfy your competitive streak.

I think I would puke if I saw an 800d with Rotel gear behind it....

He'll have a bucket ready for you were he to go this route.

[Pieter]

Wouldn't a speakers upgrade followed by an amp upgrade be a better approach?

My angle exactly.

[grit]

Good feedback so far, thanks everyone.

I agree that a pair of 800D's driven by a Rotel RMB-1095 is not going to be an optimal solution. However, I have heard the 802D's and my 803S's powered by a RMB-1095 and found the 802D's to clearly sound better. How to quantify that improvement would be difficult to measure, its subjective after all. Still, it stands to reason that the 800D's would continue this trend utilizing the same equipment.

Technically Rotel's 200 wpc power amplifiers are very capable and they won't have any problems driving the 800D's modestly. While I'm not expecting them to run in the low tens, the high twelves is still very respectable.

Truthfully, does anyone think that the CA-5200 can do the 800D's justice? Looks like I would be in for a double upgrade in this case. Seems like I should shoot for something the likes of the CA-400M's to "eventually" power the 800D's, a costlier proposition. At $11,000 for a couple of CA-400M monoblocks and $6000.00 for triple-channel CA-3200 amplifier, for a 5.1 system, (not including the supporting cast of source and pre/pro) I could own a pair of 800D's instead.

Most advice, so far, seems to be upgrade the amp then the speakers then potentially the amp again. Wouldn't a speakers upgrade followed by an amp upgrade be a better approach?

IMO, underpowered speakers are awful to hear. I heard 803's powered by a Denon receiver (cost about $600). It made the 803's sound like my Boston Acoustics ($800 for the pair I think). I experienced something similar this week listening to Aerial 7b's. The 100 watt Classe isn't enough. The 7b's sounded more like a monitor than floor-standing speaker when underpowered.

I honestly didn't give consideration to whether the Classe 5200 (or 3200) could drive 800's. I was using blinders thinking of the 803's. Good point Rebel. On 800's, the CA-400M's really are where where you want to be. The Classe 200 watt-er won't power them MORE than the Rotel 1095, just BETTER (eg, more detail). I'd aim for more AND better power in the long run.

On top of that, I gotta say I was surprised how well the 1095 can keep up with the big boys (Classe, Krell) at equal power. To be sure, more expensive amps have an AMAZING improvement in quality of sound, but the Rotel, at it's price point, is amazing. It powers speakers just fine (at the expense of more detail). I've not demoed the 800's, but my guess is that you'll be giving up some of the bottom end for a while.

And finally, after getting to a/b the Rotel 1095 and Classe 5100 (100 watts) on 803's, I found there wasn't a HUGE difference in the power *at modest volume levels of around 80db in a smaller room*. Please don't mistake this for the quality/detail of the sound...Classe reveals so much more. As for having enough power to drive the speakers, the Rotel was better (more control, bass, etc), but the Classe was workable (probably because B&W's are not a difficult load to drive). I imagine this scenario would transpose itself onto the 800's and the 1095. Just as you said, you'd be able to drive them modestly.

So. Yes, I think you should skip the CA-5200 in terms of powering B&W 800's, and I think 400 watt monoblocks is overkill for 803's. Something is going to be mismatched for a while. I really think you need to hear B&W 800's on a Rotel 1095 before you can make that decission. If you find it to be liveable, I'd do the speakers first. If you find them to be underpowered for your listening levels and you're not going to be happy, ugrade the electronics.

[martino]

Anyone who thinks the 1095 can't run 803's is nuts!
I have the 1095 and 1098 combo running 803SxHTM3x805S surround set up..It has more power that I could ever use..and I'm very happy with the detail.
Rebel Man; IMO go with 802D and enjoy GRADUAL upgrading....iy's like making love..make it last...

Cheers

Martino

[RobP]

IMO, underpowered speakers are awful to hear..

Actually, underpowering a speaker can do some serious damage to voice coils.

[stewfoo]

OK, I'm not an audio snob. I was just drinking lol... I would not puke. But, I guess that my recent experience has been that I am pissed off that my dealer sold me the 803s, htm3s, and some ceilings as surrounds. I ended up ebaying my Rotel gear for half of what I payed 5 months later. I wish that my dealer was more an advisor than a salesman. He went for the sale that he could guarantee for his commission, rather than to advise me to go down the classe route and risk the sale. It seems like a couple grand was wasted for nothing. I wish I just got the classe gear up front.
Of course, Martino, a 1095 will push the 803s. Mine rocks. But, when you buy an 800 series speaker, rotel is truly not allowing the speaker to do what it should. The 800 series is so incredibly revealing that all flaws are very apparent. No doubt, the 1095-803s combo can rock.... But it is not the pairing that B&W intended. I would say that Rotel should not be used for anything above the 700 series.
Rebelman, The 800d is one of the best speakers in the world. It would require the classe ca-m400 monoblocks to really get the best out of them. Remember, Abbey Roads Bi-amps the 800Ds with those monos. If you are wanting to stay with the 200 wpc Classe models (permanently), the 802Ds are the most I would put on that level of amp. I would just look to match the system as well as you can. Don't get me wrong, Look at the poop amp (relatively) thats pushing my surrounds (for now)

Happy hunting

[jim777]

I would say that Rotel should not be used for anything above the 700 series.

I can say that 703's have the FST and they need better than Rotel amplification too... (IMHO)

[grit]

Anyone who thinks the 1095 can't run 803's is nuts!
I have the 1095 and 1098 combo running 803SxHTM3x805S surround set up..It has more power that I could ever use..and I'm very happy with the detail.
Rebel Man; IMO go with 802D and enjoy GRADUAL upgrading....iy's like making love..make it last...

Cheers

Martino

Just in case I mis-stated something - I think the 1095 is ample for the 803's. My concern is the 1095 handling the 800's that Rebel is contemplating. Again, I'm not knocking Rotel (my whole system is Rotel). I was just amazed what even BETTER equipment will do.

There's (IMO) a fair bit of detail the Rotel's don't get. A professional review on Rotel equipment said something like, "Rotel's formula has always been to produce an award-winning mid section, and the rest will follow." I think the review was referring to the idea that Rotel has less detail at the high and low end of the sound spectrum than other more expensive components (Classe, etc).

[DL86]

I have heard from many that 60% of the sound you hear comes from the speakers them selves and the rest from the electronics side. So if the 800D is that much of an improvement over the 803S. Decent amplification with the 800D should sound better than an 803S with top class amplification. If you buy the 800D's now, you could possibly even use better amplification later on than what you plan to buy with the 803S when you decide to upgrade the electronics, i.e. Classe 400w monoblocks. Just my 2 cents.

[csuzor]

Yes, I was impressed with ca-m400s powering 803S. I was not impressed with NAD or some tube amps driving 802D. However, my thoughts go towards a balanced system, no extreme components mismatched.

The 802D seems like a better choice unless money is not a concern. 802D may even be better sonically with the RB-1080 than 801D or 800D, and the left-over cash could buy an incredible source component, or a decent amp. And to the eye, the 802D is just as pleasing as its 2 bigger brothers.

Amps and sources will all have evolved significantly in 5 years. B&W top end speakers may also evolve into a 4-way (read B&W documents between the lines, that's what the engineers wanted, but marketing did not!), and exchange the kevlar for another material. I would not buy something now to be ready for ultimate enjoyment in 5 years. Heck, my tinnitus may be so bad in 5 years that I can't hear the difference. How's yours?

But given that Rebelman's final objective is an ultimate lineup, if you've got to do it, go for the speaker upgrade first. The rest will be carefully selected to bring out the best "according to your ears". You're not devoted to Classe, but you are to B&W.

[RebelMan]

You're not devoted to Classe, but you are to B&W.

Nicely put Chritophe, am I that transparent? LOL. I agree a balanced system is best for today but smart for tomorrow?

Yes, B&W has been hinting around a four way system but they shied away from it for mostly technical reasons. If it were strictly marketing then I think they would have "benefited" from such a change. Remember when the first Nautilus 800's came out? The big deal at the time was the tube loaded tweeter that was inherited from the original "Nautilus". I suspect the same would be had for a four-way promotional ad.

The "marketing" concerns to which you refer had mostly do to the "kevlar" midrange drivers and understandably so as this very recognizable speaker characteristic is synonymous with the B&W name we have come to know. I believe a change here would primarily be an attempt for B&W to separate themselves from the rest of the plagiarizing pack.

[RebelMan]

Eureka! I think I have finally figured it all out. I have been attacking this whole issue with tunnel vision. I was primarily thinking within the confines of a 5.1 system when I should have been looking at it from another angle as I am in the planning stages of building a dedicated entertainment room that will include an option to add two more channels for a 7.1 system.

My wakeup call came from a private discussion I had with another member of this forum. As it now stands, I could get the Classe system and drive my current 5.1 speaker system as is. Later, when I am ready, I can replace the 803S's with the 800D's and add a couple of CA-M400 mono's for a 7.1 system. The beauty of this arrangement is that I loose nothing in the upgrade process. I get the best of both worlds NOW and LATER! SWEEEEET!!!

Thanks everyone for your input. It really does help to discuss these types of issues with others. Looking back it seems kind of silly to have overlooked what is really a simple "planning" issue. :banghead:

[RobP]

;b> arty: Party at Rebelmans house when its all done!! :rofl:

[Karma]

HI gravy,
Your post is great. I'm doubled over!! ;x(

Sparky

[Rolex]

This is true, but wouldn't it be wiser to max out one end of the spectrum and upgrade the lesser later then it would be to inch up both sides at the same time?

Please indulge me people while I play devil's advocate. :twisted:

Depends on your budget and your craving to upgrade. Maybe the 803D or 802D would be enough for you. Not sure.

Then again, unless we are talking Omnicron from classe, aren't we just inching the classe side as well?