802D or 800D

[JKalman]

I talked to my dealer today and can trade in my 802Ds for a pair of 800Ds. I saved up enough money to either do this trade-in or to buy an Ayre C-5xe. If I get the 800Ds I will continue to use my Denon DVD-5910 as a source component and will have to bi-amp the 800D through my 9B SST until I save up enough for either the 14B SST or a pair of 7B SST (Brystons). Then I will finally be able to save up again for the Ayre C-5xe.

This is a tough decision for me and I would like to make the decision by Monday morning. During that weekend I will bring the ayre C-5xe for a home audition to directly compare it with my Denon DVD-5910. This could ultimately be what makes up my mind.

I wanted to see what kind of insights people on this forum may have concerning my dilema, since I have come to trust and respect the members of this board as a whole. Please feel free to be as candid as possible. I know that all drivers and crossovers on the 800Ds are better quality than those on the 802Ds, but it is 8k more in money to spend.

Thanks!

[dortiz]

I had the same chance but in the end decided not to. For the slight improvements I felt I would have had to also double the investment in amps. A well put together system with 802Ds is better than an underpowered 800D rig.

[Rob72]

Hi Jkal,

While I think the 800D's are fantastic I would use the money to upgrade in different areas such as cd player/pre amp or amp. The 802D's are fantastic and you can get them to preform better with upgrading your other components.

I am not sure about universal players....I believe the Ayre your talking about is a universal right? Anyhow my experience has been that a dedicated high end cd player will smoke the universal players anyday. Also with the new DVD formats coming out it might be better to wait and see what develops.

Just my two cents.

[JKalman]

I am not sure about universal players....I believe the Ayre your talking about is a universal right? Anyhow my experience has been that a dedicated high end cd player will smoke the universal players anyday.

Yes. It is a universal stereo player. All the reviews I have read on it rate the CD player alone worth the money for the quality of playback, while also rating the SACD/DVD-A as up there with the best (exceeded by players costing a lot more in price--more than I am willing to spend on a source unless it plays SACD/CD/DVD-A). I know that Stereophile gave it an A+ rating which is the highest rating a player can get, and Atkinson bought one I beileve. Those are the reasons I am going to bring one home for audition. If it is that good... I will certainly notice the difference between it and my Denon DVD-5910.

Thanks so far for the feedback.

[sikoniko]

i say get the speakers.. you'll probably upgrade the other pieces eventually anyways. at least you will be able to say you are done with your l/r speakers until the next series comes out 5-7 years from now.

[Indytown]

I had the same chance but in the end decided not to. For the slight improvements I felt I would have had to also double the investment in amps. A well put together system with 802Ds is better than an underpowered 800D rig.

Well said.

[Indytown]

Hi Jkal,

While I think the 800D's are fantastic I would use the money to upgrade in different areas such as cd player/pre amp or amp. The 802D's are fantastic and you can get them to preform better with upgrading your other components.

I am not sure about universal players....I believe the Ayre your talking about is a universal right? Anyhow my experience has been that a dedicated high end cd player will smoke the universal players anyday. Also with the new DVD formats coming out it might be better to wait and see what develops.

Just my two cents.

I agree with the dedicated CD player. I run a arcam CD33 with a Denon 3910, big difference in sound quality. I would think the 3910 is not much differnet than the Denon 5910 since it is a newer model that has basically the same guts as the 5900 series.

If you go for the 800d's your pre amp and amps have to go. You may find the Bryston pieces slightly veiled on the 800d's.

[RebelMan]

If you go for the 800d's your pre amp and amps have to go. You may find the Bryston pieces slightly veiled on the 800d's.

Curious, did you not like the combination when you heard them?

[Indytown]

Curious, did you not like the combination when you heard them?

Liked it alot, also listen to a Plinius SA102 I believe, same sitting - detail up the yig yang, then the CAM 400's; then the MAC 501, these amps are very good if you like a slighly over amplified midrange area, good bass, slighly more than the CAM's. The CAM are more relaxed than the MAC's, more even presentation, velvety sound with detail.

May be I should retract my statement about the Bryston, not vailed probably neutral, full bodied, with slightly less detail than some of the others. Probably pre amp matching would be a wise move with them. I did the listening with these amps on 800d's.

Indy

[JKalman]

I agree with the dedicated CD player. I run a arcam CD33 with a Denon 3910, big difference in sound quality. I would think the 3910 is not much differnet than the Denon 5910 since it is a newer model that has basically the same guts as the 5900 series.

If you go for the 800d's your pre amp and amps have to go. You may find the Bryston pieces slightly veiled on the 800d's.

The 5910 is a different machine, it has the newest Burr-Browns on the market (1792s). It uses two in dual differential mode for stereo processing, and it has 3 more of the 1792 chips for surround processing (5 total). The Ayre C-5xe uses the same chip. This is why I am curious what kind of difference there will be between those two units. To Ayre's credit, they separate out all the different processing and turn everything off but the specific hardware that needs to be in use for a particular format.

I have found that the 5910 is excellent. I found it hold its own against the Meridian G08, the Arcam FMJ CD33, and the Arcam FMJ CD23. I auditioned all of these in my system at home. Though to be fair, I did not do the comparisons with my 802Ds since I had not traded in my 703s at the time. I did the comparisons with the 703s. A few notes though. I found the Meridian to project a more solid image. The FMJ CD33 I found to lack the ability to maintain a cohesion between musical elements. The FMJ CD23 I found had timing issues in general. I never got to test an FMJ CD 36 (I assume they released this unit super quick to fix the problem with cohesiveness, especially since the changes would solve that kind of problem--stealth materials to prevent electro magnetic interference). These are the impressions I got from lots of A/B testing of the above units.

If I were going to buy something to compete with the DVD-5910 I would have to go reference quality in CD playback, that is my opinion. Perhaps the Meridian 808i... I did find the one unit that got my attention was the G08, but it wasn't enough to warrant the extra 4k in money against the 5910, and often the vocals would sink too far back into the music to hear some lyrics.

[JKalman]

Liked it alot, also listen to a Plinius SA102 I believe, same sitting - detail up the yig yang, then the CAM 400's; then the MAC 501, these amps are very good if you like a slighly over amplified midrange area, good bass, slighly more than the CAM's. The CAM are more relaxed than the MAC's, more even presentation, velvety sound with detail.

May be I should retract my statement about the Bryston, not vailed probably neutral, full bodied, with slightly less detail than some of the others. Probably pre amp matching would be a wise move with them. I did the listening with these amps on 800d's.

Indy

I'm considering the Bryston 14B SST, Bryston 7B SSTs, and McIntosh MC-501s, though I heard the Mc's run hot, no pun intended. :

[JKalman]

i say get the speakers.. you'll probably upgrade the other pieces eventually anyways. at least you will be able to say you are done with your l/r speakers until the next series comes out 5-7 years from now.

I'm thinking the same thing. Even at their worst, those 800Ds will probably sound better than my 802Ds bi-amped on my 9B-SST with the Denon DVD-5910 as a source.

[Indytown]

I'm considering the Bryston 14B SST, Bryston 7B SSTs, and McIntosh MC-501s, though I heard the Mc's run hot, no pun intended. :

Both the 7b sst and MAC 501 ran cool, the MAC 402 runs hot.

Sometimes you have to go back to where you started your audition and re-evaluate the first amps. May have to take a listen to the 14b or 7b again.

The MAC 501 was excellent, just a tad too forward in the midrange, sort of overshadowed the other sonics in the field; vocals , guitars right there first row seating.

Classe CAM 400 is very good, slighly less umph than the MAC, more refined presentation.

[DavidB]

I actually have the choice this weekend of buying an ex-demo pair of 800D's or a new pair of 802D's for £1000 difference. Although I have a big room (23ftX15ft and 11ft ceiling) I think the 800D's are just physically too big and then I'd have the issue of buying amp's to do them justice. Have to draw a line somewhere.

[misterdoggy]

I don't know, maybe I'm crazy but it seems lopsided to jump into the top of the line 800D's without having matching quality everything else.

I think 802D's are probably great and suit your needs and you can put the extra $$ into Amps and such. Many reviews think that todays 802D's are every much the quality of the N800's and maybe considered better.

Maybe more prudent to move up in smaller notches everywhere, than a giant leap in the speaker area and find yourself needing an Amp that can push a pair of 800D's to where they should go.

I mean if I had a pair of 800D's I'd be thinking about something like a pair of Krells 750 MCX mono blocks for $20k to take those babies where they like to be.

[sikoniko]

the question is, will you be able to upgrade to the 800d's later for the same price or are you on a 1 year upgrade that is running up? if so, then the timeframe you can upgrade the speakers might be running out for the difference while you can upgrade amps at anytime and pay full price.

[JKalman]

My dealer's upgrade plan so far has consisted of me calling and asking if it is possible to upgrade. The dealership does not seem to have any stated upgrade policy, but have been willing to let me upgrade so far both times I have asked. I'm not sure how much longer they would be willing to let me do the upgrade. I've had the speakers for around two months now.

[jim777]

They'll let you do the upgrade thingy for a long time because the 802D's will be the current line for a while. In that kind of case-by-case situation, I don't think that he'll refuse an upgrade for something current.

On my side, I think that 802D's should be enough if your room isn't *huge* and you should concentrate on giving them the best source(s) and amplification possible.

The compare that your going to do should fix your mind anyway

[Rob72]

Hi Guys,

I just got back from my dealer to inquire about my new 802D's and had a chance to audition some cd players. I looked at the Ayre C-5xe vs Meridian G07 (the G08 was loaned out) and a $13,000 Esoteric Cd Player. The setup was a complete Mac with the 802D's.

Both my wife and I thought the Ayre was the winner. It smoked the G07 and was on par with the Esoteric Player. I preferred the Ayre sound the most. I was really impressed. I thought it was a really nice match with the 802D's and held its own compared to the more expensive Esoteric.

I would like to see how the Ayre compares to the G08, Sim Audio or Musical Fidelity players.

[JKalman]

Hi Guys,

I just got back from my dealer to inquire about my new 802D's and had a chance to audition some cd players. I looked at the Ayre C-5xe vs Meridian G07 (the G08 was loaned out) and a $13,000 Esoteric Cd Player. The setup was a complete Mac with the 802D's.

Both my wife and I thought the Ayre was the winner. It smoked the G07 and was on par with the Esoteric Player. I preferred the Ayre sound the most. I was really impressed. I thought it was a really nice match with the 802D's and held its own compared to the more expensive Esoteric.

I would like to see how the Ayre compares to the G08, Sim Audio or Musical Fidelity players.

I'm going to go demo the Ayre C-5xe tomorrow. It will be a pain in the butt, but I'm bringing my DVD-5910 as a comparison, since I can't bring it home for an audition until 4:30 on Saturdays, which is impossible for me to do this week.

[Rob72]

I think you'll be pretty impressed with the Ayre. I have not heard the Denon but I would have to think that a dedicated CD player in the Ayre will out preform the Denon.

Let us know your results.

[JKalman]

Uh, didn't take too many minutes for me to pull out the old check book for that Ayre... Unbelievably sweet sounding. What depth... No CD player I auditioned before came even close. Guess I'll stick with the 802Ds and upgrade to some good monoblocks next, most likely. I can buy top of the line next time they update the 800 series with all the right equipment in place to support them, or even buy 800Ds used at that time.

[Rob72]

Hi Jkal,

Congrats. I knew you would be pretty impressed. When I heard the player yesterday it totally blew my mind. It really shows what the 802's can do. Mono blocks would take the sound up a notch as well.

Did you test the player with your own equipment or did you demo at a dealer?

[JKalman]

I did a demo at the dealer. Unfortunately, they are backorderd so it will take a month to get mine. I payed the extra money to get it customized in black.

[EastCoaster]

Uh, didn't take too many minutes for me to pull out the old check book for that Ayre... Unbelievably sweet sounding. What depth... No CD player I auditioned before came even close. Guess I'll stick with the 802Ds and upgrade to some good monoblocks next, most likely. I can buy top of the line next time they update the 800 series with all the right equipment in place to support them, or even buy 800Ds used at that time.

Congrats Jeff - I just read a couple of reviews on the Ayre - sounds like it's absolutely top shelf! What will you do with the DVD-5910?

[Pio]

Congrats on the Ayre!!! I'm going to go and listen because of this thread, I currently have a Denon 5910 as well. On the 800 vs 802 debate, have you considered adding a couple of subwoofers? The difference between the 802 and the 800 is the bass section. The 800's dual 10's equate to the power of one 15 incher, the 802's dual 8's equate one 12" woofer. I'm running a couple of Velodyne DD-12's flanking my 802 set up and (with the room equalization) sounds incredible. I think B&W's new subs also equalize for room corrections and look terrific!

[Indytown]

Congrats on the Ayre!!! I'm going to go and listen because of this thread, I currently have a Denon 5910 as well. On the 800 vs 802 debate, have you considered adding a couple of subwoofers? The difference between the 802 and the 800 is the bass section. The 800's dual 10's equate to the power of one 15 incher, the 802's dual 8's equate one 12" woofer. I'm running a couple of Velodyne DD-12's flanking my 802 set up and (with the room equalization) sounds incredible. I think B&W's new subs also equalize for room corrections and look terrific!

Not exactly right; yes the dual woofer of the 800d's equate to the area of the 15 inch but there is alot more going on. The 10 inch drivers have the same magnet structure as the 15 inch drivers, thats 4 bass drivers with 15" magnet structures. Upper octave bass say from piano, drums etc are more defined and fuller; there is less space in the soundstaging between instruments; they are cohesive across the whole soundstage.

A sub would only be needed below 35 or 40 hz with the 800'd just for a little more reinforcement in the kick drum area and lower octaves.

Don't get me wrong I bet your dual subs and 802's sound fantastic, but I would bet it is a tad bass heavy (integration) and not totally natural sounding.

[Pio]

Don't get me wrong I bet your dual subs and 802's sound fantastic, but I would bet it is a tad bass heavy (integration) and not totally natural sounding.

Actually with all the adjustments you can make (and I've made) to the subs to deal with room modes and standing waves, it is virtaully flat in the lower two octaves. I do have an appetite for clean, tight, gutt hitting bass, that said, for music I roll the subs off at 29hz @ 24db slope (I really don't listen to anything with an organ). For movies, they are set to go down 17hz and the foundation shakes :B

Anyway, in the 800 vs 802 debate, isn't the bass the biggest difference between both speakers? The midrange and tweeter are the same, right?

[JKalman]

Congrats Jeff - I just read a couple of reviews on the Ayre - sounds like it's absolutely top shelf! What will you do with the DVD-5910?

The 5910 I'm keeping for movies and surround sound.