What to do?

[angelo]

Hi all,

I have a little dilemma and wanted to get the opinion of all of you who are experts with B&W.

My current home theater setup is a Rotel 1056 with 602.5 S3 mains, LCR 60 centre, DM600 S3 surrounds and ASW 600 subwoofer. The room that this is all measures 12x20.

The dilemma that I am having is whether or not to upgrade some of my speakers to get a more mouth dropping reaction when watch a movie. I think that the sound is good but not great and I know that my speakers are not the high end and are probably great if you factor the cost, but something is missing. I don’t want to speed thousands of dollars to get into a pair of 802, etc. but would like to a great sounding movie room when I put a DVD on.

What would make my system give me that clean, sharp sound? Is it my subwoofer? Or is it the two main speakers that just don’t cut it? I know someone who is willing to give me great money for the speakers I have now if I did want to sell them. Maybe I am board with the system and want something new.

Please let me know what you all think.

Regards,

Angelo

[dyazdani]

Is there anything specific that you're not happy with?

[JKalman]

I think you should go to a B&W dealer and test them against higher level models. If you want give Audiocom in Greenwich a call since you live in CT. They are awesome to deal with and can set up a bunch of the speakers you may be interested in (which are in your price range) at the same time so you can push a button to test back and forth between them. Tell them I sent you, they are usually really good about giving discounts. I've bought a lot of equipment there and can testify that they are very generous with their customers and extremely good about letting previous customers demo equipment. They also aren't run by snobby elitists who think they know more than everyone else who walks into their store (even though they do have the background and experience to act this way, they don't).

That being said, before you get rid of everything or test new stuff, try playing around with the placement of your speakers. It could be that they are too far apart leaving holes in the sound between the speakers.

The ASW 600 is a good sub, you should be fine if you set the crossover correctly, though one problem I had occurs if you put a sub on one side of the room instead of using two subs and balancing out both sides of the room, it can give one ear a beating (literally!) and throw the movie/sound experience off balance.

Good luck and happy hunting,

Jeff Kalman

[JKalman]

Testing my tag...

[dyazdani]

That being said, before you get rid of everything or test new stuff, try playing around with the placement of your speakers. It could be that they are too far apart leaving holes in the sound between the speakers.

Basically where I was going to go with the addition of some possible room treatment options depending on the situation.

Good idea on the demos...

[JKalman]

Basically where I was going to go with the addition of some possible room treatment options depending on the situation.

Good idea on the demos...

Thanks.

Good idea bringing up room treatments.

[angelo]

Thanks Jeff.

[angelo]

Hi Danish, thanks for your input.

One side of the room has windows and a sliding door. I can do some stuff to the other side but what should I do?

[JKalman]

Well, if you don't mind going higher in price try out the 703 speakers. I had those before I switched to the 802Ds and liked them a lot. If the 12 foot space is going to be your front wall, I wouldn't go for anything with a wider body. If on the other hand, you are using the 20 foot space as your front wall, you will likely have problems with most speakers if you are using the entire space and placing the speakers near the side walls. On the latter setup you would experience a hole in the middle due to diffusion of the central part of the image.

Unfortunately I don't have any experience listening to the 6 series speakers, which is why I recommend a demo to make comparisons with other models (though even if I did have a lot of experience with them, I would still recommend you demo, speaker preference can be fairly subjective).

[JKalman]

Hi Danish, thanks for your input.

One side of the room has windows and a sliding door. I can do some stuff to the other side but what should I do?

I posted a few good links on this thread:

Thread with links

Besides that you can also google the topic. If you are going to do some major room treatments I would draw out your room on photoshop or some other kind of program and post it to forums asking for advice on how to treat it, remember to label things like the glass door, windows, fireplaces, ceiling height and material, etc.

[JKalman]

You could also hire someone to come in and consult you on what you might do, which is what i'm contemplating doing after the monetary damage of xmas is over.

[dyazdani]

Unfortunately I don't have any experience listening to the 6 series speakers, which is why I recommend a demo to make comparisons with other models (though even if I did have a lot of experience with them, I would still recommend you demo, speaker preference can be fairly subjective).

I used to have a pair of 601s, but other than that, I'm in the same boat.

Sounds like your preference is HT listening over 2ch so I am trying to decipher the dealer's reasoning for slightly larger mains for "not enough bass." The issue I'm having is that presuming you have your mains set to "small" in the bass management (not sure of the Rotel's specifics), I'm not sure that the 603s would change a whole lot?? Not trying to say anything bad about the advice, just trying to understand it.

As far as room treatments there are several options. Could you post a picture of your room? A couple of angles would be nice.

[angelo]

The front wall is the 12 foot side, (I can not change that).

When I listened to the 603 at Audiocom they had a bit more fullness to them compared to the 602.5. I can possibly move the 602.5 to the rear.

I was considering getting another ASW600 but I would have to put it in the rear of the room. How do you feel about that?

I trying to find a picture of the room...

[JKalman]

I was considering getting another ASW600 but I would have to put it in the rear of the room. How do you feel about that?

I trying to find a picture of the room...

I don't see a problem with placing subs in the back of the room. I think the important part is that they are symmetrically placed more than whether they are placed in the front, back or sides, which is why I referred to things getting thrown off balance.

A picture of the room won't be as useful as a schematic, even a simple one, for your own sake. Then you can use the schematic to try out all different kinds of design ideas and to give people a sense of your raw space. Also, it will allow people to quickly see the dimensions.

[JKalman]

BTW, by Symmetrical, I mean having one on the right and left.

[dyazdani]

When I listened to the 603 at Audiocom they had a bit more fullness to them compared to the 602.5. I can possibly move the 602.5 to the rear.

I don't doubt the 603s were a little fuller (I'm assuming you auditioned in stereo...). I think you would be hard pressed to tell a big difference in an HT environment, but a real audition would tell. Depends on how you've got the bass management set though.

Any way to get them to let you borrow the 603s for a day or two?

[JKalman]

Sounds like your preference is HT listening over 2ch so I am trying to decipher the dealer's reasoning for slightly larger mains for "not enough bass." The issue I'm having is that presuming you have your mains set to "small" in the bass management (not sure of the Rotel's specifics), I'm not sure that the 603s would change a whole lot?? Not trying to say anything bad about the advice, just trying to understand it.

I don't know the specs on either speaker, but it is possible that there is a significant difference between them. My first reaction was the same though. In truth, if the problem is a lack of bass, perhaps you are not setting the crossover Hz high enough. With a 12 foot front wall you certainly aren't spreading the speakers out too far. Perhaps they are too close to the walls and the reflections are cancelling out a lot of the waves.

[JKalman]

On the website it shows that the 603 has an additional bass driver, which the 602 does not have, this could make it noticeably fuller in comparison. I would go for a 604 (dedicated midrange as well as additional bass driver) or 703 if you don't mind spending the money, but first play around and see if you can make changes to solve the problem without having to change speakers.

Page with 602

Page with 603 & 604

[JKalman]

I'm not a good person to ask advice on this issue. I traded in a whole 7 series (703, 705, HTM7, and ASW 7**) surround setup (and extra cash) for a pair of 802Ds. I'm not very frugal. I find it hard to compromise when it comes to sound, because this is more important to me since I use it more for music, a HT system gives a person more of an opportunity to not focus on the sound and to focus more on the visuals.

[angelo]

Here are some pictures. They two mains are way to close to each other but I can't really do much about that. The door open in on the left side of the TV.
I did hear the 603 in two channel mode only. In a nutshell are the 7 and 8 series more for the audiophile than the home theater guru? If so what do you guys think of the other lines like the FPM or in walls for a HT setup?

[JKalman]

Having the two front speakers that close to the TV is probably part of the problem. With something that big between them the sound is going to have problems. Maybe try moving them forward two feet or even three feet, not permanantly, but just to see if that is part of the problem.

[angelo]

How do I shirk these pictures?

[dyazdani]

Good pics and plan view...

The first thing I would try is pulling the speakers (603s) out from the wall and TV a bit and toe them in slightly. I would bet that it helps quite a bit.

Also, I see where you said you had the LCR60, but I don't see it in the pic. Assuming you added it after the picture was taken, but just checking.

[dyazdani]

Having the two front speakers that close to the TV is probably part of the problem. With something that big between them the sound is going to have problems. Maybe try moving them forward two feet or even three feet, not permanantly, but just to see if that is part of the problem.

Dang, beat me. We need a chat room on HTG.

[JKalman]

In a nutshell are the 7 and 8 series more for the audiophile than the home theater guru?

Nope, THX uses 802s for THX testing which is HT. They are higher quality speakers. I was just saying that with HT (since visuals are usually where most of your focus goes) you can likely get away with cheaper speakers better than with pure audio where your eyes and mind aren't focused more on another element (video).

[angelo]

Thanks...
I will try that.
Yes, its on top of the TV.

[angelo]

what kind of setup do you guys have?

[JKalman]

Another problem is that you have a structure on one side, and no structure on the other side. This means one side is giving you immediate reflections while the other side is very delayed in comparison, which means your whole sound experience is going to be tilted.

[JKalman]

what kind of setup do you guys have?

My setup... a work in progress.

[JKalman]

As you can see, I'm familiar with problems caused by unbalanced right and left room halves. That book shelf, which usually has books on it, absorbs a lot of the normally reflected sound, and I haven't had time or cash to invest in a baffle for the other side yet. This makes it noticeably unbalanced to me when I listen to some recordings.

[dyazdani]

Here's mine...

Had some 802s with Levinson electronics in the system before this one but it was 2 channel only.

My room is similar as far as the lopsided nature. It's open to the kitchen/bar area on the left and there's a sliding glass door, fireplace, and window on the right. Thank goodness for room treatments.

[JKalman]

How do you post pictures that size on the forum? I kept getting messages that it had to be 100kb or less.

[dyazdani]

Were you trying to post it as an attachment? I think when you do it that way, the server limits you as to the file size.

I store mine on Photobucket and post them using [IMG] tags.

[JKalman]

Ah... No wonder.

[JKalman]

My right speaker was moved out of place when I took the picture, it is usually symmetrical.

[dyazdani]

Can't see the pic in the last post.

How deep is your room? Do you notice any issues with your speakers as close together as they are?

[JKalman]

I only posted one picture two posts before yours.

My room is around 34-36 feet deep, the rest of the room is my office. I originally had the speakers set up at the B&W listed minimum distances from walls but had problems with the center image becoming overwhelmed by bass which caused diffusion of the center image. I moved them out 3 feet from all the side and front walls and the sound was a lot better, but I was still having the occasional diffuseness, and also, the sound didn't match up well with the 36 inch screen for movies in stereo. They are now 4 feet from both walls and I no longer have any of the previous problems. The bass however is a little too diminished now, so I plan on moving them back to 3 feet from the sidewalls and then trying 1-2 inch increments back towards 4 feet from the sidewall till I find a nice balance. As I moved the speakers out from the wall the sound never stopped stretching all the way to the side walls even at 4 feet the sound still extends all the way to the side walls. As I moved them out from the back wall the sound filled in the space dimensionally toward the TV creating a more realistic 3D synergy with the video.