Wow... we've all been wasting our money! (Good read)

[audioqueso]

http://www.theaudiocritic.com/downloads/article_1.pdf

Something interesting that caught my eye over at HTF.

So basically, my B&W 805, Velodyne SPL-R 800, Parasound HCA-1500A amp, Marantz pre-amp, Pioneer Elite DVD player, all wired by DH Labs cables sounds the same as a Bose Lifestyle or RCA $20 stereo... hmmmm. :roll:

[PewterTA]

Unfortuneately, Peter does not know a lot about audio does he?

[audioqueso]

To kill it all in front of him, all we need to do is grab a stranger in the street and do a blind test. Simple as that.

[Andrew M Ward]

if you take out all the theatrics and hysteria it's fairly accurate. He does not claim that Bose sounds better or worse than anything.

i've been involved in a whole bunch of AB-X testing and you might be surprised about some of the results. Although I don't completely agree with AB-X on a few grounds - but - I think it works for people who say they "instantly hear" something is better than another. Once yo test them they change their minds..

I would agree his article sounds a little like he has something to prove, regardless of wether or not it matters...

Hey!
The best game of Chess I ever played I lost.

I never claimed to hear the difference in cables, yet I own about $8K worth of inter-connects... What can I say, they look cool!

[aphexist]

http://www.theaudiocritic.com/downloads/article_1.pdf

Something interesting that caught my eye over at HTF.

So basically, my B&W 805, Velodyne SPL-R 800, Parasound HCA-1500A amp, Marantz pre-amp, Pioneer Elite DVD player, all wired by DH Labs cables sounds the same as a Bose Lifestyle or RCA $20 stereo... hmmmm. :roll:

I'm curious how you extrapolated that conclusion from the article. However, I would suspect that the your system wired with DH Labs would sound pretty much the same as it would with "generic brand" cables.

[Wizard-of-Odd]

I think the theme of the article is very straight forward - let your ears decide what sounds best to you. Do not be intimidated by the "experts". This however takes time. Many people don't have the time to invest in auditioning the many different components available or simply don't want to be bothered by such a process. I think for these people the article basically states quality components sound good - the differences become a choice of personal preferance.
In my case I have to take into consideration a hearing loss caused by too many gigs played too loud over too many years. What sounds good to me many not sound good to you.

Disclaimer: The opinions expressed are biased based on my experience and pig-headed stubborness. Your results may vary. :B :B

Peace,

[audioqueso]

I'm curious how you extrapolated that conclusion from the article. However, I would suspect that the your system wired with DH Labs would sound pretty much the same as it would with "generic brand" cables.

I read what components you have, and I could reply by saying that I would lend you my cables so you can hear and believe, but I don't have to. Just two weeks ago when my friend/co-worker was here and was looking over me stereo and asked "...where did you get cables like theses? I know Best Buy doesn't sell anything like that. Does it really make a difference?" I took out my interconnects and speaker wire and replaced it with spagetti wires and let him listen for himself. He doesn't know jack about this stuff but he even said that it sounded fuller and more dynamic (I believe was his choice of words). Just do a listening test. That's how I started out. I started with Silversonic speaker wire and easily noticed the fullness. Not night and day, but definitely noticeable improvement. The dealers are full of crap saying that anything lower than Transparent is unworthy. They let me borrow some Transparent speaker wire and even though it was better, it was very marginal. Not worth $800. And if you're playing you Nautilus speakers with spagetti wire then you really aren't getting the most out of your speakers.

"...everybody knows that a Krell sounds better than a Pioneer, so if they are indistinguishable from each other in an ABX test, then the ABX method is all wet..." So your system is the same as a Bose. You see? The article even stated that tube amps don't sound any different from solid state amps.

Like Wizard-of-Odd clearly stated "let your ears decide what sounds best". I'm not media-driven so I don't buy anything that I can't clearly hear the difference in.

[george_k]

I agree with the others that this article is a little "thin".

I don't believe that ABX testing applies as much to speakers as it does to amplifiers. I think you can distinguish a $200 speaker from a $2000 speaker more easily than you can a $200 amp from a $2000 amp.

Also, another thing they always fail to mention is who are the people involved in the experiment, are they audiophiles or just average people off the street who aren't into this hobby.

[DrJRapp]

I never claimed to hear the difference in cables, yet I own about $8K worth of inter-connects... What can I say, they look cool!

Anyway, They probably cost you zip...since you are in the biz.

[Andrew M Ward]

[QUOTE=DrJRapp]

Anyway, They probably cost you zip...since you are in the biz.

Doc!
A) Perhaps I purchased $16K of cables at $8K my cost?

B) Perhaps I purchased them at full value?

C) :rofl:

D) 8O

[aphexist]

"...everybody knows that a Krell sounds better than a Pioneer, so if they are indistinguishable from each other in an ABX test, then the ABX method is all wet..." So your system is the same as a Bose. You see? The article even stated that tube amps don't sound any different from solid state amps.

I'm going to let the cable argument slide because from experience I know that people that have spent money on cables don't like to be told that their investment in "exotic" technology is accessible to the proles with "budget" cables (cables of appropriate gauge, good materials, terminations, and shielding != expensive).

Other than that, I think you may have a slight problem reading comprehension based on your interpretation of the above statement. The name brands are irrellevant to the point he is making. He is attacking "tweako cultists" who value name brands and reputation over real-world performance. If a Bose salesman set up a new Bose system in your house and performed an ABX test against your 805s, and to your ears the Bose system sounded better in the test, would you buy the Bose system?

Furthermore, he does not state that "tube amps don't sound any different." Once again he attacking the propagation of the myth that tube amps are inherently superior to solid-state amps. I still believe that the only reason that people buy tube amps is because they like to see the glowing tubes and that sight is somehow a romantic experience, just like a vinyl nut waxes nostalgic about "dropping the needle" and the lovely snap, crackle, pop! As he asks, "What's wrong with tub amps? Nothing really...Whatever vacuum tubes can do in a piece of audio equipment, solid-state devices can do better at lower cost, with greater reliability." I think you would have an extremely hard time finding an EE that would dispute that argument.

[PewterTA]

Doc!
A) Perhaps I purchased $16K of cables at $8K my cost?

B) Perhaps I purchased them at full value?

C) :rofl:

D) 8O

Andrew, I have a brand-new car I'll sell ya... cheap... like 34K. :rofl:

[audioqueso]

I'm going to let the cable argument slide because from experience I know that people that have spent money on cables don't like to be told that their investment in "exotic" technology is accessible to the proles with "budget" cables (cables of appropriate gauge, good materials, terminations, and shielding != expensive).

Other than that, I think you may have a slight problem reading comprehension based on your interpretation of the above statement. The name brands are irrellevant to the point he is making. He is attacking "tweako cultists" who value name brands and reputation over real-world performance. If a Bose salesman set up a new Bose system in your house and performed an ABX test against your 805s, and to your ears the Bose system sounded better in the test, would you buy the Bose system?

Ok, I can see what you're saying about tube amps where they're not necessarily attacking the tubes, but the people who believe it in solely. I do not believe in the 'exotic' technology, I agree with you on that (Transparent), but cables of appropriate gauge, good materials, terminations, and shielding (that equals more costly) DOES matter. I'm not going to say 'because my job is..." (I know people hate that... I personally hate it when people say that), but simple fact is interference=degraded signal. A certain cable isn't going to make your music sound better, but provide lesser interference. From personal experience at home and at work, digital and analog, long and short runs.

As far as my reading comprehension, watch how you word your statements pal. Unless I'm mistaken, it sounds like you're trying to make a personal attack. "...so if they are indistinguishable from each other in an ABX test, then the ABX method is all wet..." So if they both sound the same, then the test is wrong. That's what it says. :T

[aphexist]

So if they both sound the same, then the test is wrong. That's what it says. :T

But you are incorrectly attributing the statement to the writer's beliefs. That is the writer's example of how a "cultist" might respond to failing to identify his "superior" equipment an ABX test. The writer is obviously in favor of testing and values it as a tool in distiguising quality.

For example (just for illustration of the concept):
A man just spent $500 on speaker cables. He is subjected to an well-performed ABX test against generic 12 ga. shielded copper speaker cables. After numerous trials he cannot reliably identify his new cables, and the results end up around 50/50. Rather than accept his defeat, the man defends his investment by blaming the switchbox used in the test. "The test is wrong."

[Clive]

At the risk of getting :a> I do believe there are other benefits to getting good quality cables over cheepy ones. Of course if one should grab a new pair of both types of cables.... maybe hard pressed, but what about over time? What about RFI/EMI noise? In this case one could still use RG2 coaxial cables for their satellite HD transport. NO!

So let's leave it to the individual to decide what's good for him/her. Funny though, the other day I heard on the news that MILK (study showed) could be harmful to our health 8O

Sometimes I believe that for benefits to the publisher only things like these will surface to create attention.

[junior77blue]

Well, is it really the milk or the chemicals they feed the cows to help produce MORE milk??

Anyway...My take on the article is this...

He's probably right about the cable, I typically buy the higher end cables mainly for the connection method rather than the exotic materials used in the cable. It really comes down to "can you hear an 'improvement' or not". If you can't...don't waste your money because someone else claims it to be the best thing ever! I've done that a couple of times...but have gotten wiser over the years.

Amps are very subjective...very subtle differences. Reliability comes into play here.

Speakers, this is where the biggest bang for the buck is in difference.

[Adz]

So let's leave it to the individual to decide what's good for him/her. Funny though, the other day I heard on the news that MILK (study showed) could be harmful to our health 8O

.

"Milk is for babies".

-Arnold Schwarzeneger
1975 (from the movie, Pumping Iron)

[Kens1]

"Real men drink beer" and buy whatever sounds and looks good to them.

[Andrew M Ward]

Andrew, I have a brand-new car I'll sell ya... cheap... like 34K. :rofl:

Really!
That sounds great, thanks. I'll take it! 8)

Hey, BTW: This "what's good and what's not" stuff is my favorite audio topic. It's such a dividing line, like abortion or gun control.

(or both in the same sentence)

[Mitchell]

Much of what I know about this stuff (which isnt much) I have learned on this forum.
Isnt the argument for tube amps that when they do distort they distort in a more harmonic way then solid state so that it has a more pleasant sound?
and when talking to a guy from sound anchors he mentioned that when they manufacture test equipment and calibrate and test it, the interconnects effect the readings and calibration so some effects of cables are able to be empirically measured. I will not get into whether that translates into audible differences.
That article seemed very simplistic. I KNOW my 703's broke in and warmed up.
The difference was too great and I would have laughed at that before the experience. It wasnt a few hours but a few weeks.

[Andrew M Ward]

Sure!

Not everything that can be measured matters
And
Some things that cannot be measured do matter

That said a healthy dose of skepticism (in my opinion) is necessary. However that must be balanced with the ability to discover and experiment.

I think that's what it comes down to is; too much "audio black magic" that's not properly balanced with real science is ultimately bad for the industry. But applying Ohms law to everything and thinking you've got it solved is equally as ridiculous.

(just 2 cents worth)

[Adz]

And here's a refersher for those who forgot what Ohm's law states,

Electricity has a number of immutable characteristics that dictate the design and function of a generation, transmission, and distribution system. In particular, there are four terms that are fundamental to any understanding of the operation of these systems -- electric power (P), voltage (V), current (I), and resistance (R).

Voltage is a force that is analogous to pressure. Higher voltage levels have greater potential to transport and deliver power. Thus, high voltage transmission lines are used to move electricity over long distances, whereas lower voltage distribution lines are used to move electricity locally. Transformers are devices that "step-up" or "step-down" voltage.

Current is the flow of electrical charges and is measured in amps. The product of current and voltage is referred to as power (P=I*V).

Resistance is an obstruction to current flow and is measured in ohms. A conductor has a low resistance and an insulator has a high resistance. Lights, appliances, motors, and all electrical equipment have resistance. The amount of power used by electrical equipment is a function of its resistance.

The relationship between voltage, current, and resistance is a fundamental law of physics, called Ohm's Law, that is expressed by the following formula: Current=Voltage/Resistance (I=V/R). This formula discloses a critical property of power -- if there is no user of power, resistance is infinity and no current flows in the circuit. In other words, with constant voltage the resistance of the load determines the amount of current flowing in the circuit.

[DrJRapp]

Sure!

Not everything that can be measured matters
And
Some things that cannot be measured do matter

That said a healthy dose of skepticism (in my opinion) is necessary. However that must be balanced with the ability to discover and experiment.

I think that's what it comes down to is; too much "audio black magic" that's not properly balanced with real science is ultimately bad for the industry. But applying Ohms law to everything and thinking you've got it solved is equally as ridiculous.

(just 2 cents worth)

As far as cables go, I used to be a skeptic until I participated in a blind a/b test between $15 ICs and $150 ICs. I could definitly hear the difference in sound. The funny thing is that although different neither sounded inferior to the other, just different. I myself picked the $15 (without knowing of course) because they sounded smoother with the overly bright and harsh speakers (B&W 803) and reflective room used for the test. 7 out of 12 of us chose the cheaper IC.

Andrew: I'm still believing you got your $8K of cables for nothing, or nearly nothing.

[Andrew M Ward]

As far as cables go, I used to be a skeptic until I participated in a blind a/b test between $15 ICs and $150 ICs. I could definitly hear the difference in sound. The funny thing is that although different neither sounded inferior to the other, just different. I myself picked the $15 (without knowing of course) because they sounded smoother with the overly bright and harsh speakers (B&W 803) and reflective room used for the test. 7 out of 12 of us chose the cheaper IC.

Andrew: I'm still believing you got your $8K of cables for nothing, or nearly nothing.

Now Doc,
Your ruining my credibility (although it was already in jeopardy) as far as this whole $8K worth of cables thing goes, I have closets full of gear I paid full retail for over the years 8) does that count?

[DrJRapp]

I have closets full of gear I paid full retail for over the years 8) does that count?

If I believe that fish story would you tell us another???...lol