Are B&W speakers bright?

[Pieter]

Jay, I think most of us, you inclusive, realise that what's on the disc is close to the largest contributing factor of the sound we get. One's rig either faithfully reproduces this, or it colours the sound, to whatever degree.

I too may complain of an excessively bright violin tone if I listen to the Quartetto Italiano's performance of Schubert's "Death and the Maiden" on the Philips Siverline label; almost unbearable. But, when I pop in Salvatori Accardo's performance of Paganini's 3rd Violin Concerto on Deutsche Grammophon...I hear the angels bowing.

I took issue with you saying a piano does not reveal "brightness", for I am aware of it on the 805 pair I own given certain piano recordings.

---

"Revealing" to some - "Bright" to others.

This quest for "neutrality" is amusing. There's a definition floating around which says once we've got it (neutrality), nobody wants it!

So, it's coloured sound for me with a slant towards the revealing/bright.

[JetFlyGuy]

Remember too, as a more articulate speaker, the B&Ws are throwing more acoustic energy into the room than the mass market stuff. All this energy bouncing around in a highly refelctive room are bound to sound harsh, as the more directional high frequencies are more prone flutter echo which makes a room sound like it is 'ringing'

[js24]

well said, Pieter
I hear ya my man !

have a good weekend~! ;b>

[Mitchell]

Years ago I remember graphic equalizers were common for fixing (I think) this exact problem of brightness or imbalances in a system due to room acoustics or system flaws. You would see them them built in to low end systems and as a seperate component on high end systems. They no longer seem common.
Any ideas on why they are not common and would they be helpful to a brightness issue whether brought about by room acoustics or a bright speaker?

[js24]

Mitchell
I'd raised that question a few months ago at the a'gon
check this link out
http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr...an&4&5#Jungsan

[Pieter]

Remember too, as a more articulate speaker, the B&Ws are throwing more acoustic energy into the room than the mass market stuff. All this energy bouncing around in a highly refelctive room are bound to sound harsh, as the more directional high frequencies are more prone flutter echo which makes a room sound like it is 'ringing'

I became very aware of this when auditioning a pair of Gallo Reference 3s in my room a few weeks ago.

Their tweeters have a claimed 320° dispersion pattern, which, coupled with their size, sprays a lot of high frequency energy into the room. The large expanse of hard reflecting room surfaces played havoc with the first track of Afro Celt Sound System's Volume 1 CD. There was an high pitched oscillating sound (ringing) which forced me to turn the thing off; ghastly.

Here the room was mostly to blame, for I would not consider the Gallos to be bright.

So, Josh, I second you on the role room acoustics plays in the perception of a speaker's "sound".

[Mitchell]

JS24
Thanks for the link to audiogon. It sounds like while equalizers may not be in fashion they may still be a good solution to some problems.

[misterdoggy]

Being a purist, and hope that I can figure things out without influencing the signal. Move the speakers, try acoustics on the walls and ceiling, move furniture, change wire, try everything else first.

[jlee]

jlee do you think partial acoustic treatment is worthwhile. The problem is the listening area is the living room with lots of art on the walls and lots of large windows. I don't know where I could put anything except the ceiliing. I was considering lots of curtains.

Sorry for the delay in responding. Been real busy.

ANY acoustic treatment is worthwhile. I was going to do this big long post on my history of treatment... but I'll try to keep this msg short.

I basically did 2-3 hour tests for EACH "phase" of my treatment and what improvements it made... using certain tracks of movies and songs to determine what happened with and without the treatment. The MOST important treatment is the back wall (well the wall you're facing, so I guess that is actually the front wall behind the main speakers). Next important is the 1st reflection from the main speakers. Next, the back wall. Next the ceiling. I treated my room using rugs and curtains. I tested using blankets held up by push pins to test the before and after effect. Once I determined there was an improvement, I installed the rugs and/or curtains.

I also boarded up the windows to prevent ringing off the glass, outside noise from the environment, and most important, the sound of RAIN when it rained. Next, I replaced the glass door with a thick solid wood door. This made a huge improvement. Windows are also a big source of bass loss... boarding up with 3/4" MDF helped with the deep bass quite a bit too!

I also covered up the chandelier in a neighbouring room because it was ringing like a set of bells!

Bottom line... ANY treatment is better than none. If you have lots of art, then try to find a place u can put some curtains and it will help. Try to put some behind the speakers and 1st reflection from the side walls. Those are most important. Rest will make subtle improvements, but those are where u will get the most...

Oh, and I also removed my coffee table because I was getting reflections off the top of the table!!! I replaced it with a "cushioned" chair/storage box on rollers that can be used as a coffee table when a tray is placed on it.

Couple other minor tidbits... My sofa is leather... for really discerninng listening sessions, I cover it with a blanket. If you don't believe this makes a difference, try putting a pillow right behind your ears next time you listen. You will find the pillow absorbs any reflections and prevents reflected sound from the back wall from reaching your ears. You will get a more focused soundstage and imaging as well as more defined highs.

[misterdoggy]

I think I get get something behind the speakers and ceiling but the windows have a light curtain now (lace) but I could do heavier curtains. The Rest is in the domain of the little lady who rules........ so I have to be happy at this point.

Next House I will do a dedicated room.

[DrJRapp]

Remember too, as a more articulate speaker, the B&Ws are throwing more acoustic energy into the room than the mass market stuff. All this energy bouncing around in a highly refelctive room are bound to sound harsh, as the more directional high frequencies are more prone flutter echo which makes a room sound like it is 'ringing'

That would blow the theory that more is better.

[js24]

why do alot of us compare the B&Ws to the mass market stuff????
I don't get it...
Isn't it kind of an insult to ourselves comparing a true highend like B&W to such inferior standards?

raise the bar pple, raise the bar..

[RebelMan]

why do alot of us compare the B&Ws to the mass market stuff????
I don't get it...

Probably because B&W is the most popular high-end massed produced audio company in the business. Furthermore, most consumers of (low-end) mass produced products that "move up" don't have the experience to compare their equipment to anything else but B&W.

Comparing B&W to mass market "stuff" does not lower their fine reputation. It actually demonstrates why mass market stuff is so inferior.

The bar needn't be raised, it has already been set!

[beehive]

i dont know, i just love my B&W,
I wont be here if i dont..
after a tiring work, next to my wife, my B&W eases my day.

[beehive]

i dont know, i just love my B&W,
I wont be here if i dont..
after a tiring work, next to my wife, my B&W eases my day.

[mr_m687]

I would say they are bright speakers. The question is if all rooms are bright why not produce a speaker that counters this effect? Everyone on here that says they are not bright spent thousands of dollars hanging stuff around the room. It's just funny to say the speakers are fine then hang crap all over the room to make them sound good. They should sound good in any average room meaning a few chairs maybe a couch and some pictures, a plant or two. But nooo you have to spend a whole bunch of $ to try and make them sound good with wall treatment. Then you buy cables to try to make them sound good what is the deal. B&W make a speaker for everyone not a speaker you have to put in a room with padded walls.

[csuzor]

This is a fun thread, so here's another useless piece of opinionated info:

Before buying a 703 for center duty today, I compared it to a HTM1 (Nautilus), with music I knew, vocals on center only. I found the HTM1 very different, 2 ways:

1. HTM1 was very bright, I believe I could hear the metallic tweeter, the integration with the FST mid driver was poor. I could not pick the sounds coming from either the tweeter or the FST on the 703, it seemed better integrated.
2. The HTM1 was not as clean in the bass response as the 703, it reminded me of my HTM7. The 703 was leaner, crisper.

Overall, I was more convinced there was a lady singing in the room with the 703, than with the HTM1.

Can it all really be true? doubt it... This is the opposite of what everyone says. Was I biased? I would have liked to hear the HTM1 was much better, it may have convinced me to buy it, but on the other hand I am looking for integration with other 703s, not better sound.

It was a room I didn't know, it was a marantz sacd and not my denon, the preamp was a NAD and the amp was a tube model (no interest to me with my Rotel setup).

Conclusion? there is none! like this thread! But it's fun!

[tboooe]

I have to agree with mr m687. ITs one thing to get different cables and amps and things to try and get the best out of the speakers but if you have to go to extremes to make them sound different then maybe the speakers are wrong for your taste. B&W are a what some may say "bright". As another poster said, that is their signature sound. If this does not suit your style and you want more bass or a "warmer" sound, check Polk, Klpisch, Sonus Faber, Monitor Audio, etc.

I understand that not everyone has a bunch of cash to trade speakers all of the time but if I was unhappy with the sound signature (warm, bright, bass, etc) I would sell my speakers used and spend the money I would have spent on room treatments and get different speakers that work with my room and my listening preferences.

As csuzor said, this is a fun thread...

[mr_m687]

I have to agree with mr m687. I understand that not everyone has a bunch of cash to trade speakers all of the time but if I was unhappy with the sound signature (warm, bright, bass, etc) I would sell my speakers used and spend the money I would have spent on room treatments and get different speakers that work with my room and my listening preferences.

Exactly

[Pieter]

Hopefully one should not be driven, out of necessity, to drastically alter the acoustics of one’s listening room in order to change the sound of a speaker from abhorrent to sublime. Whether this is possible is moot.

Not all have the opportunity to evaluate speakers at home in the setting in which they will be used. They may find a pair of sonically appealing speakers during a demo at a dealership, only to realize, too late, that the speakers don’t do-it for them when placed in their listening room.

What to do?

Return the speakers, if possible, and let the hunt begin anew.

Recall that the speakers sounded marvelous in the dealer’s demo room, that you preferred that “signature” sound and want to retain the speakers, thus are willing (need) to tweak/alter the room’s acoustic fingerprint.

Unfortunately some rooms are not suited as listening rooms, so one either finds another or one subjects it to acoustic treatment. The length that an individual will go to in order to achieve an acceptable, or that “perfect” sound, is entirely his own affair and mostly subjective.

Moderation, as guide, is always sensible though.

But, some prefer to tread the path of over-engineering. Will you call Bob Ludwig a nutter because he believes it necessary to drive a concrete pile to bedrock level in order to isolate his main full range speakers from the studio floor? Who’s Bob Ludwig anyway?

How about building a listening room, in its entirety, around a set of speakers which you believe are the “best”?

“Get your head out of the clouds,” you say. “Most speakers are made to sound all right in a generic living room.” And most folks easily spend $4000 on a set of speakers?

Do not underestimate how awful a crappy room can sound. And that the speaker to make it sound good has not been manufactured yet, or ever will be.

One does what one can. Some just do more, needed or not. Others do it in reverse. Who's reverse?

[mr_m687]

Very nice post Pieter I agree with all the points you made.

[jlee]

I would say they are bright speakers. The question is if all rooms are bright why not produce a speaker that counters this effect? Everyone on here that says they are not bright spent thousands of dollars hanging stuff around the room. It's just funny to say the speakers are fine then hang crap all over the room to make them sound good. They should sound good in any average room meaning a few chairs maybe a couch and some pictures, a plant or two. But nooo you have to spend a whole bunch of $ to try and make them sound good with wall treatment. Then you buy cables to try to make them sound good what is the deal. B&W make a speaker for everyone not a speaker you have to put in a room with padded walls.

No it's not quite like that. At lower volumes, the reflections off the walls are less and therefore padding doesn't make as big a difference. With higher volumes, regardless of the speaker, you will get that ringing, even with speakers that are not considered bright. With smaller rooms, you will get 2nd and 3rd reflections affecting the sound. With larger rooms, the effect of 2nd reflections is reduced somewhat because by the time 2nd reflections reach you, your brain considers the time delay great enough such that it more or less ignores it.

The room is very important regardless of the speaker. Your local theater is padded to the max... not just the walls and ceiling, but also each PERSON in the theater acts like a sound absorber. Try watching the same movie with a crowded room and then go to the matinee with nobody in it. The sound will be different.

As for the cables, they don't make them sound good. They just minimize the losses to let the B&W's sound their best.

[jlee]

This is a fun thread, so here's another useless piece of opinionated info:

Before buying a 703 for center duty today, I compared it to a HTM1 (Nautilus), with music I knew, vocals on center only. I found the HTM1 very different, 2 ways:

1. HTM1 was very bright, I believe I could hear the metallic tweeter, the integration with the FST mid driver was poor. I could not pick the sounds coming from either the tweeter or the FST on the 703, it seemed better integrated.
2. The HTM1 was not as clean in the bass response as the 703, it reminded me of my HTM7. The 703 was leaner, crisper.

Overall, I was more convinced there was a lady singing in the room with the 703, than with the HTM1.

Can it all really be true? doubt it... This is the opposite of what everyone says. Was I biased? I would have liked to hear the HTM1 was much better, it may have convinced me to buy it, but on the other hand I am looking for integration with other 703s, not better sound.

It was a room I didn't know, it was a marantz sacd and not my denon, the preamp was a NAD and the amp was a tube model (no interest to me with my Rotel setup).

Conclusion? there is none! like this thread! But it's fun!

Did you mount the HTM1 on a TV? If so, that is probably why it doesn't sound as clean as the 703 in the bass. It is not the HTM1's fault. What is happening is that it is causing the TV cabinet to resonate, and you are hearing bass sounds from the cabinet, not the HTM1. Furthermore, if it's mounted on top of a TV, you will get 1st reflections off the glass surface of the TV. That can affect the clarity of the mids and highs, which is what I suspect you were hearing when comparing to the clarity of the 703. You cannot compare the 2 like that when mounted differently. The HTM1 is essentially an 804 sideways. Compare the 804 to the 703 for a fair comparison.

Other factors I forgot:
1. Because the TV top is not sturdy, the HTM1 and TV resonate back and forth. This then causes the mids and highs to be time smeared.
2. The solution to this is to connect a rod to the back of the HTM1 extending to the back wall to keep it perfectly still. This is impractical for most, and I haven't done this myself, but I've been able to reduce the affect of this by using good tack between the HTM1 and TV to isolate the 2 a bit.

[alkalay]

Pieter,

What an enjoyable reply. :T

Itai.

[jlee]

One more thing

When I first auditioned speakers at my local dealer, the only think they had as treatment in the room was a rug on the back wall between the 2 speakers. This alone made a huge improvement, but I was unaware of it at the time. When I got my speakers home, broke them in for a week, the imaging was off and the sound all over the place. I couldn't figure it out. Hence the start of my journey into room treatment and how important it was. I can say that I got the same good sound as the dealer just by handing a curtain on the backwall behind the speakers. This ALONE made a huge improvement and is relatively easy to do in any room... whether it be curtains, a rug, or some other similar item. The next big step was to diffuse or absorb the SIDE reflections. If you do just those 2 things, and you have good equipment and cables, this should be sufficient. I've gone the extra mile and slowly added more padding to get incremental improvements, but I just wanted to show that just some basic room treatment can do wonders. Cost was a few hundred for the curtains, hangers, and rugs.

For 5 channel, you then have to take similar steps with each speaker... but usually in 5 channel, you are not as focused on the sound as in 2 channel, so it may not bother some people... so the main thing is to do treatment for the 2 main speakers.

[csuzor]

Did you mount the HTM1 on a TV?

No, it was mounted on its dedicated stand, 2m from the back wall where the screen for the projector is.

The HTM1 is essentially an 804 sideways.

Perhaps... but bass response is better on the 804 from the specs, the 804 has a flowport and HTM1 doesnt, and the HTM1 is magnetically shielded. Why do you think B&W recommend identical speakers, and not the HTM type in the center, for multi-channel music?

Compare the 804 to the 703 for a fair comparison.

Sure, and I have in the past (804S to 703, not N804 to 703), and 804S was superior in every aspect. I imagine this is true for N804 as well.

I wasn't doing a fair comparison, that was the point for my post. I was comparing 1 center speaker to a 1 floorstander, in an alien environment. The HTM1 was bright, the 703 wasnt. And I knew this idiotic conclusion would upset some of you!

[jlee]

>>No, it was mounted on its dedicated stand, 2m from the back wall where the screen for the projector is.

Ah... next question is what type of floor are you using? Carpeted or hardwood? If hardwood, I suspect reflections off floor were causing the problem... even if carpeted, anything within 33" of any surface will technically cause problems. I actually tried an HTM1 on it's dedicated stand for 1 week (before finally deciding on a final configuration) and I too found it still had some of the problems you mentioned, just not as pronounced.

Couple things happen when you mount it on the B&W dedicated stand:
1. It's so close to the floor you get floor reflections for mid and highs. Even if carpeted, it's a factor.
2. The 2 bass drivers are closer to the floor on average than the floor stander and therefore you get more bass reinforcement from the floor than with the taller floorstanders.

>>Perhaps... but bass response is better on the 804 from the specs, the 804 has a flowport and HTM1 doesnt, and the HTM1 is magnetically shielded. Why do you think B&W recommend identical speakers, and not the HTM type in the center, for multi-channel music?

Yes, it's SLIGHTLY different, but essentially the same speaker. I've actually plugged my N804 flowports with 700 series bungs (long story for another thread ). The extended bass response is partly due to the flowport. Another factor is the configuration of the drivers and cabinet, and from the way the response is measured head on when B&W do their specs tests. With the HTM1 bass drivers to either side, the response as measured on the center axis would logically be a bit lower, thus giving it less bass response "on paper."

I'm well aware that for multi-channel music you want 5 identical speakers, but more often than not compromises are necessary, especially if combining a HT and music system (which makes good financial sense).

>>I wasn't doing a fair comparison, that was the point for my post. I was comparing 1 center speaker to a 1 floorstander, in an alien environment. The HTM1 was bright, the 703 wasnt. And I knew this idiotic conclusion would upset some of you!

Not upset at all mate! Just trying to contribute as best I can. I enjoy reading this forum but haven't posted much lately. Actually, I'll be posting my own questions and help from some of you soon! I plan to upgrade to HTM3S, 803S, and either 805S, SCMS (or keep my SCM1). More to come later!

[alkalay]

My B&W ASW-675 does not sound bright at all.

Itai.

[Pieter]

My B&W ASW-675 does not sound bright at all.

Itai.

'Cos you got the crossover set to low. Tweak it up a few notches to really let it sparkle.

[Karma]

HI Folks,
First post for me.

After many years working, listening and owning high end audio I have come to conclusions about frequency balance. This is: There are no simple answers. When someone complains that a system sounds "bright" one must ask a lot of questions to determine the context of the complaint.

The most common problem is room acoustics. Bare walls and uncarpeted floors will make a mess out of the best audio system. I don't like super dead rooms but almost all rooms can stand a fair amount of dampening.

Electronics also make a big difference. Expensive amps sound less bright as a general rule. Tubes sound less bright. Vinyl records played by an expensive cartridge can sound less bright. Good (meaning expensive) CD and DVD players are very helpful. Cables also fit into the equation but again, this involves considerable expense especially for home theater. In general, great sound equates to expensive. There are no shortcuts.

With speakers as good and honest as the better B&W's, all these things become critical. I do not consider B&W's bright. I do think they are good enough to inform the listener of problems elsewhere in the system or in the listening room. I can't tell you how many expensive systems I have seen setup in horrible, bright rooms.

I think the B&W tweeters such as those used in the 800 series are some of the best I have ever heard. They produce a high frequency sound almost as good as the sound produced from fine electrostatic speakers which can be state-of-the-art. For me, (an electrostatic lover) that is quite a statement.

The bottom line is you must connect your B&W's to equipment that is at least as good as the speakers and place them in a room which is frequncy balanced. This usually means you must buy expensive equipment.

Use sound treatment for your room. This does not have to be expensive. Hang decorative woolen rugs on the walls. Install heavy curtains or drapes over large windows. Definitely carpet the floors. Pay special attention to the first reflection path to the listening position. Room treatment will give you the best bang for the buck. Do these things right and you will have a good chance of having a great sounding audio system. Ignore them and your system will not perform to its potential.

So before you complain about bright sounding B&W's, maybe you should look at the context in which they are operating first. You may be attempting to solve the wrong problem.

Karma

[Eliav]

I should jump in here too... I did the same thing... whole room is treated... 804's sound fantastic. Without treatment, yeah, you hear all the reflections and pinging and ringing... hurts your ears after a while... with the treatment, it's audio nirvana. Everything is part of the SYSTEM... no small detail can be neglected, not the least of which is the room itself!

Could not agree more with these two gentlemen
Eliav

[bluesfan]

Not bright enough for me.

[ChrissB]

If a speaker reproduces the full frequency spectrum the way it should (linear) it might seem bright to some ppl. The same happens with sacd, some ppl the 1st time they listen to it...the think they its "bass light". What happens in reality is that they are not
used to good linear sound reproduction. After all, most cheap systems offer strengthen frequency extremes (lots of bass - lots of highs, little mids). Good speakers like JM LAB UTOPIA, sonus faber etc. are bright 2. As for bright, its good think to me cause its the opposite of "shut-in" sound. Harsh on the other hand is not and its something completly different.

[Pieter]

Sparky, at the risk of sounding patronizing, that is some of the most level-headed advice and comments I've read in quite some time. Thanks.

[grit]

I'm seeing LOTS on room treatments, and I'm interested in making sure my room isn't a problem. So, HOW do I find out more without hiring a professional? How do I make my room the same acoustic quality as my system WITHOUT making it look LIKE a theater? I got heavy curtains, but those don't necessarily make the decorative statement I want either. What about walls? Furniture? Pictures? And where do I buy this stuff? I've never seen anyone selling such things. I can't afford to hang rugs, so I need some other ideas.

Any help would be appreciated.

[dyazdani]

If you can post a pic of your room and maybe some approximate dimensions, that would help. There are many options for treating a room, both commercial and DIY.

[Karma]

Some Room Treatment Ideas

HI grit,
Yes it can be a bit frustrating trying to figure out how to make a room sound good. Good audio stores can offer solutions such as Sonex, diffusers, tube traps and the like. You will faint at the the prices. There are other ways but professional sound treatments really are the best way to go. Most of us will not spend that much money and perhaps settle for less perfection.

Carpet and drapes are the place to start, the thicker the better. Once that is done one can start by first evaluating the problem and doing a lot of critical listening. I developed a trick a number of years ago that has proven valuable for room evaluation. You might want to give it a try.

Tune your FM tuner to the noise between stations. Be sure the tuner or amp is in the mono mode and the FM muting is off. This is harder with digital tuners because they will not permit tuning except at defined frequencies where stations actually exist. You may have to pull off the antenna lead so that all you hear is noise. Adjust your system to get sound out of just one front speaker. Don't be afraid to crank the volume a bit. You will find that certain volume settings work better than others. The evaluation will proceed one front channel at a time.

Sit in your listening chair and listen carefully. Become very familiar with the sound. Your eventual goal here is to locate the primary reflection paths sound is taking to your ears. For now, just listen long enough to be able to identify the higher frequencies easily. Once you do this a couple of times it becomes easy. Close your eyes and concentrate on your ears. Hopefully this is natural because you listen to music this way. At first you may feel like an idiot but hang in there. Shoo away anyones who laughs at you sitting there seriously listening to random noise. Dismiss them as not being initiated into the mysteries of audio. 8)

Move your hand in front of your face. Pretend your eye is in your ear hole. Imagine your ear looking at the sound source's tweeter. Now move your hand between your ear and the and the tweeter. You should hear the high frequencies drop dramatically as your hand shadows your ear. Play with your hand position and listen carefully. You are learning the technique you will use to identify the primary reflection paths.

Now that you are good at it, slowly sweep your hand horizontally. You will hear the high frequncies rise and drop as your hand crosses a reflection path. Look at the angles from your ear through your hand to the wall. You have just defined a reflection path which needs treatment. Mark it with tape. I use a Maglite flashlight tightly focused placed at my ear shining on the wall through my hand to find the place for the tape.

Hopefully you will have a some sort of wall hanging you can place at the spot you have identified. I found some rather nice looking wool saddle blankets at a tack shop that worked very well and were cheap. I bought a pile of them.

Otherwise, enlist a wife or kid to hold a blanket at right spot and repeat your listening test to confirm your spot. Once you are sure, attach the hanging to the wall. Proceed to the next "hot" spot. Do this with both front channels.

Fixing the primary reflection paths is the first step. After you are satisfied, you must decide how lively (bright/dead) you want your room. Additional wall hangings can help. Use hand clapping and listen for slap echos to evaluate overall room response. For comparison, hand clap in the bathroom or kitchen. These rooms are usually very lively and provide a reference. Be careful not to make the room too dead which is quite possible. Don't forget the ceiling is also a reflective surface that may need treatment though usually the carpet acting as a parallel reflecting surface is enough. Ceiling treatment, however, can solve difficult problems. Don't overlook hallways and stair cases which can be very nasty.

One more point. Attempt to maintain some level of left/right symetry with your wall hangings. You don't need to be exact but it is easy to unbalance a room. Recheck your progress as you proceed to help avoid unbalanced treatment.

What I have outlined here will not help with bass response at all. For that, experimentation with speaker placement is probably the only answer short of a full blown professional analysis.

Good Luck, Karma

[grit]

Thanks Karma, that helps a LOT. I'm excited to give this a try next weekend!

[dyazdani]

Karma,

Some good tips on handling mid/high freq problems. Some broadband absorption would help with lower frequencies as well. For this, you will need more than drapes or blankets though as Karma already said.

It is very easy to make some room treatments with rigid fiberglass. The panel type treatments IMHO perform as well as commercial models. True bass traps are another story and can also be made (DIY), but construction is more complicated.

Grit, any luck with taking some pictures?

[grit]

I wasn't really as concerned with my present environment as with learning how to trouble-shoot such issues in general (changing environments, relatives residences, etc.). I'll try to post some pics though.

Bass traps? Any more insight on those?

[dyazdani]

I wasn't really as concerned with my present environment as with learning how to trouble-shoot such issues in general (changing environments, relatives residences, etc.). I'll try to post some pics though.

Sorry, I misunderstood your initial question. Thought you were asking for specific treatment advice.

Bass traps? Any more insight on those?

Bass traps are used to smooth out the low freq characteristics of your room by minimizing the effects of standing waves, etc. If you were to test the freq response in your room, you'd most likely see a bunch of peaks and valleys below, say 300Hz. See below - graph of my room and Eliav's (another HTGuide member) - both untreated.



The simplest type of bass traps are made from a fairly thick panel of rigid fiberglass. The panels are most effective placed in corners (both wall/wall and wall/ceiling) or better yet "tri-corners." These are good down to around 125Hz or so. There has to be space behind these panels in order to be effective.

Another type I believe are called "resistive" bass traps - cylinders of fiberglass with a sealed space inside. ASC Tube traps are one variety. Provided the diameter is large enough (~16 in), these normally work down to around 100 Hz.

A third type is a Helmholtz resonator. These work well and can be effective at quite low frequencies, but at the same time are only effective for a narrow band of frequencies. They are also usually a bit large.

There is also another type of "panel" trap that operates on a different principle.

There is a lot of information on the 'net about this, that's where I learned most of it - plus Everest's book "Master Handbook of Acoustics" is a great read.

PM me if you want some links to more info.

[Karma]

HI dyazdani,
Good advise about midrange and bass. I was primarily commenting on the subject of this thread which is asking about possible B&W brightness. But extending the conversation into acoustics in general is useful and necessary.

The problem with bass in particular is evaluating the problems. That and the solutions are difficult, potentially expensive, and elusive. I don't know any easy and available way to evaluate bass problems with the tools the average audiophile has handy. If a person is willing to invest the time and money on bass traps and corner traps the effort can definitely be worthwhile. But, all of my fellow forum members, be warned. Chasing bass is very time consuming which results many times in mixed results.

The only solution in which I place any faith is a purpose designed listening room designed and constructed with bass performance in mind. The average home listening room will exhibit serious bass problems that defy solution. I don't want to discourage the effort though. I use tube traps, diffusers, and and corner treatments to achieve results. I have spent countless hours moving, pushing, grunting and cussing. It has paid off but only to a degree. My main listening room has improved but is a far cry from great. Mr. Bass is a very slippery character that doesn't like rules.

Sparky

[dyazdani]

Yep, bass is a tricky animal. It's not THAT hard to evaluate the response, a CD with some test tones and a RS SPL meter is all you need. That said, even after you SEE what it looks like it is diffucult to actually DO something about it.

There are some general things you can do (like the broadband absorption, tube traps, etc) that help out, but it is basically impossible to eliminate all the issues. Best way is to build the room the right size with the right materials, position your equipment as to minimize the room interactions, and treat the heck out of it.

Back on the brightness subject (independednt of the bass issues)...Treating reflection points like Sparky said is a great way to tone things down a bit. Just about any speaker sounds edgy in an untreated room.

[JKalman]

A recurring theme in this forum is the bright nature of B&W speakers (some members use the word “harsh” but “bright” sounds better if you’ve spent a lot of money on B&W gear). I’ve assumed that people who like B&W like brightness. I do. I hear other people’s speakers and they sound like their tweeters have blown.

My questions are these:

1. Are B&W speakers generally on the bright side?

I've heard they are, but I didn't find my 703s bright, though I did find them brighter than all the diamond speakers.

2. Does the brightness reduce as you spend more money on B&W speakers? (I’ve even heard members refer to 802’s as bright/harsh on this forum).

I don't think so, once you hit the diamonds they have a lot of the same sound quality in the highs.

3. Are some models bright and others not?

If you are worried about it at all compare the diamonds to other speakers they make.

Ultimately it is really whether or not you like the sound. I had heard a lot of other speakers before I tried out the B&Ws. Once I heard them, I was hooked. I even upgraded from 7 series to 8 series because I loved how they sounded as they went up in quality. I wouldn't mind owning the 800Ds but it was above my budget.

The message you have entered is too short. Please lengthen your message to at least 4 characters (hehe my message was too short...)

[JKalman]

Oh it is also best to try them out with the other equipment you own or will buy. Then you know whether or not it will sound good with your equipment.