Are B&W speakers bright?

**audioqueso** · 10 July 2005, 08:51 Sunday

With the wong amps, yes. With the right amps they sound so balanced.

**js24** · 10 July 2005, 11:55 Sunday

1. generally all B&Ws are bright (regardless of Amps, but some make it worse for sure)
2. the 802D seemed less bright than the 803D to my ears..
3. bright: 703, 803, 803D
less birght: 704, 804, 805,
in betweenie 802D

bright/leanness is the signature sound of B&W.. IMHO. It's not necessarily a bad thing.. if you like it, it's all good, if not then oh well...gotta get something else

**will1066** · 10 July 2005, 11:58 Sunday

I would agree with js24 about B&W's "signature sound." And again, it entirely depends on your taste.

**scottielee** · 10 July 2005, 12:43 Sunday

with quality matching components, b&w's treble sounds realistic, violins and cymbals ring and tingle like how it should be. it is full of detail and not dull. if it sounds too bright, you can always use different tubes or cables to tone it down and not loose detail. whereas if you begin with speakers with a polite treble (which likely compromise detail and accuracy), it is harder to find bright gear to add excitement without thinning out the midrange. in my opinion

scottie

**misterdoggy** · 10 July 2005, 14:00 Sunday

Define your definition of Bright anyone?

**aphexist** · 10 July 2005, 16:13 Sunday

Metallic dome tweeters usually imply "brightness"

It is usually just a personal preference, not necessarily a definable flaw in the speaker.

**bigburner** · 11 July 2005, 05:15 Monday

misterdoggy, bright means toppy, trebley, sharp, emphasising the high frequencies, or perhaps even harsh.

audioqueso and others, which are the right amps and which are the wrong ones (where wrong means too bright)?

**johan** · 11 July 2005, 06:23 Monday

Bright is a good thing, it never means sharp or harsh. Sharp or harsh means sharp or harsh and are bad things, bright is a good thing, it means that you can hear all details in an unveiled way.
For me what defines real highend is the ability to sound as bright as possible but still with all the body and warmth that there is in real instruments. And $$$ off course...

**js24** · 11 July 2005, 12:23 Monday

Interesting perception, Johan,
don't pple usually use "warmth" as an opposite to *bright*?? maybe I misunderstood..

I think *brightness* means that the upper midband to treble is tipped up in the frequency response, for example. It is associated with forwardness of the sound... I think it is a great way to extract details as that's where all the itzy bitzy things happening... but might make things a little harsh and intrusive...
I'm becoming more aware of importance of the neutrality of speakers- shouldn't this be the first litmus test for an ideal speaker which should reproduce any recording as it is intended to be? brightness, to me, is a coloration... so as the leanness..(I know everything is colored.. so again.. it boils down to the personal preference)

bigburner, your own set of ears is the only judge to answer your question on what is right or wrong amp but.. i.e. some say Krells sound harsh with B&Ws.. but some don't...however, if I may.. Mcintosh is a synonym for warmth... I wouldn't say MuFis are particulary warm... classA amps tend to sound warmer.. avoid low powered tubes and receivers for big 800 series.. they need power
good luck~ :T

**RobP** · 11 July 2005, 13:44 Monday

Lets not forget about the room conditions as well, this can have a big impact on the sound, proper acoustical treatment is a must.

**misterdoggy** · 11 July 2005, 15:30 Monday

Bright to me are the highs, treble, are sharper, very clean, detailed like a brighter light as opposed to a lower light. As if to say 100 watt bulb as opposed to a 60 watt bulb. For Piano pieces, it is a good thing as I like to listen to sharp clear details. Too Bright would cause fatigue to listening for long periods.

**jim777** · 11 July 2005, 16:16 Monday

My 703's don't sound too bright with my McIntosh amp

Other questions: do you think that a real piano sounds too bright or harsh?? If the real instrument is "bright", then shouldn't the reproduction sound bright too? Does someone you know who plays piano alot say that your B&W's are too bright? I know a piano player that says that they are perfectly balanced.

And yes, acoustics are really important.. too much echo and anything will sound harsh...

**JetFlyGuy** · 11 July 2005, 17:13 Monday

If there is any thread that I am qualified to answer with authority it is this one. I went to B&W gear from mass market stuff, and initially HATED it! I complained for moths to my dealer about how it souned harsh, bright, and every other work you can think of. My dealer came over to the house and listened, and before I even turned the system on he commented that the problem was the room. I was initially skeptical, and it made me sick to my stomach to know how much I had spent, and to feel like it sounded better before I upgraded. I eventually purchashed a whole room acoustic treatment from RPG, and the differnce was unbelieveable. My suggestion to everyone in this forum is to treat the room.... And to answer the original question, in a correctly treated room, there is nothing EXCESSIVLY bright about the b&w's... They are accurate, so they are bright if the recording is bright, and warm if the recording is warm...

**Shane Martin** · 11 July 2005, 18:56 Monday

Bright is a good thing,

It truly is not IMHO. Bright means I listen less. B&W's I wouldn't call bright, they were very forward(in your face) everytime I heard them but not bright(like Paradigms).

There is a reason they make different flavors of jello

**jim777** · 11 July 2005, 20:56 Monday

Anyway, who is going to say in a B&W forum that they are not as good as brand x ... :gah:

**misterdoggy** · 12 July 2005, 02:39 Tuesday

Well just to throw in my 2 cents. My son and I were eating on the patio listening to Piano music. I often sit on the patio (right next to the room with the speakers) and listen to my son playing the piano (Steinway model K). Last night I was amazed to say that it was exactly as if 'he' was in their playing piano. NO difference. Not too bright but perfect up and down the keyboard notes. The same resonance and clarity. To answer the question THEY ARE NOT TOO BRIGHT !!! :amen:

**bigburner** · 12 July 2005, 04:29 Tuesday

At low to moderate volume I would describe my B&W's using all of the positive adjectives used by others in this thread, e,g. balanced, realistic, full of detail, not dull, hear all details in an unveiled way, forward, neutral, accurate etc. etc.

However, at high volume I would describe them as sharp, even harsh on some recordings. Sometimes I like this sound a lot (e.g. after a few alcoholic drinks) but sometimes I find it fatiguing.

What I'm wondering is whether I'll experience a similar effect even if I upgrade to much more expensive B&W's. Unfortunately I wont be able to audition new speakers in my home, hence my interest in getting other people's opinions.

**johan** · 12 July 2005, 06:40 Tuesday

Originally posted by js24

Interesting perception, Johan,
don't pple usually use "warmth" as an opposite to *bright*?? maybe I misunderstood..

It usually is with " lower-fi stuff ". Its either one or the other, warm and easy with the highs rolled off or very extended highs at the cost of less body and fundament. Thats what makes people use " bright " to describe a harsh sound.
Ok, English is not my first language so I might be all wrong but to me bright is unveiled, transparent, everything passes the system losslessly. High quality stuff can do this while still retaining body, fundament and warmth. I am not talking about colorations, just the ability to reproduce the entire frecuency band.

I guess we could have this discussion for a long time, maybe we all mean the same things but have different ways of putting it in words. Its not easy to describe impressions. Its interesting anyway!!

**chinets** · 12 July 2005, 06:47 Tuesday

Bigburner, I believe with more Alcohol you'll love the more expensive B & W speakers. Just kidding, but the higher you go up in the B & W range the more detailed and sharper the sound will be. Therfore, It all depends whether you like the characteristics of the B & W sound, or the sound of other speakers that could sound less bright and have more bass such as Klipsch speakers ,or you could invest in a good bar for the ultimate B & W "D" 800 series...Really joking pal.!!!But yes your comments make lots of sense.

**jlee** · 13 July 2005, 03:53 Wednesday

Originally posted by JetFlyGuy

If there is any thread that I am qualified to answer with authority it is this one. I went to B&W gear from mass market stuff, and initially HATED it! I complained for moths to my dealer about how it souned harsh, bright, and every other work you can think of. My dealer came over to the house and listened, and before I even turned the system on he commented that the problem was the room. I was initially skeptical, and it made me sick to my stomach to know how much I had spent, and to feel like it sounded better before I upgraded. I eventually purchashed a whole room acoustic treatment from RPG, and the differnce was unbelieveable. My suggestion to everyone in this forum is to treat the room.... And to answer the original question, in a correctly treated room, there is nothing EXCESSIVLY bright about the b&w's... They are accurate, so they are bright if the recording is bright, and warm if the recording is warm...

I should jump in here too... I did the same thing... whole room is treated... 804's sound fantastic. Without treatment, yeah, you hear all the reflections and pinging and ringing... hurts your ears after a while... with the treatment, it's audio nirvana. Everything is part of the SYSTEM... no small detail can be neglected, not the least of which is the room itself!

**Andorian** · 13 July 2005, 04:13 Wednesday

Hi, Jetfly and jlee and others,

If you can please share, what you mean with full room treatment in more details,
In other words, beeing new

ops: , what is your advice to starting people like myself.

can you elaborate on the full treatment...
thanks in advance, Andor.

Originally posted by jlee

I should jump in here too... I did the same thing... whole room is treated... 804's sound fantastic. Without treatment, yeah, you hear all the reflections and pinging and ringing... hurts your ears after a while... with the treatment, it's audio nirvana. Everything is part of the SYSTEM... no small detail can be neglected, not the least of which is the room itself!

**chinets** · 13 July 2005, 07:31 Wednesday

Yes. can you please expand on your expalanation on room treatment for amateurs like me. Can you buy these gadgets that equalize or adjust the sound to a specific room?? And what is the best equimpment cost and what is the brand to buy and where can you buy such equipment?? Is it worth buying?? Are they expensive and where do you install this equipment on your componenets etc..? Is this complicated or any amateur can install this equipment?? And what is the treatment to a room that all you guys talk about ?? We are LOST here!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Thanks guys!!!!

**misterdoggy** · 13 July 2005, 15:21 Wednesday

Originally posted by jlee

I should jump in here too... I did the same thing... whole room is treated... 804's sound fantastic. Without treatment, yeah, you hear all the reflections and pinging and ringing... hurts your ears after a while... with the treatment, it's audio nirvana. Everything is part of the SYSTEM... no small detail can be neglected, not the least of which is the room itself!

jlee do you think partial acoustic treatment is worthwhile. The problem is the listening area is the living room with lots of art on the walls and lots of large windows. I don't know where I could put anything except the ceiliing. I was considering lots of curtains.

**jim777** · 13 July 2005, 15:38 Wednesday

I went from an almost empty living room (small couch, not much else) to a living room with a big couch, curtains, art, a big plant, and a rug in the middle of the place. The sound is now better, but I would like to put something subtle on the ceiling too...

But I may have the inverse problem now, less reverb means more localisation of the speakers... I'm not finish playing yet

**misterdoggy** · 13 July 2005, 16:24 Wednesday

jim77

I've got beamed ceiling and was thinking about putting some material, texture, absorber material in between the beams. I've got lots of big Windows.

**audioqueso** · 13 July 2005, 17:25 Wednesday

These are only amps I've heard with B&Ws.
Krell: bright
Rotel: balanced.. a little too laid back for me
Marantz: not bright but weak on bass
Parasound: balanced... very nice with B&Ws

I think I could've left it there cause I was thinking of other amps, but it wasn't with B&Ws. These are the only 4 brands I've heard with B&Ws. Well, hope anyone has any more to input.

**Rags** · 13 July 2005, 18:10 Wednesday

For HC I prefer a slightly brighter sound. Provides a more exciting experience.

**sikoniko** · 13 July 2005, 18:50 Wednesday

glad to see you are OK Rags...

I have a cinnenova grande 5 and I think it sounds great. I suppose it could be considered brite, but only because thats what horns sound like...

**misterdoggy** · 14 July 2005, 03:57 Thursday

This question of "Bright", its sounds as though some think Bright is good and some think it is bad. This is a tough lesson in semantics. I've got Krells & B&Ws and I would say slightly on the bright side, right where I like it.

**mr_m687** · 14 July 2005, 13:05 Thursday

B&W's are not bright they just don't have good depth to the bass. You have a speaker with great highs/mids and no deep bass. This leaves the impression of a bright speaker but really its just a lack of bass. Sure its fast, tight but where is the thunder?

**jim777** · 14 July 2005, 13:20 Thursday

Crank up the volume, the bass is there

IMO, the drums, double bass, etc sound very natural.
(But sure, it's not a sub...)

**misterdoggy** · 14 July 2005, 14:08 Thursday

Originally posted by mr_m687

B&W's are not bright they just don't have good depth to the bass. You have a speaker with great highs/mids and no deep bass. This leaves the impression of a bright speaker but really its just a lack of bass. Sure its fast, tight but where is the thunder?

Depends which model ! :sn

**junior77blue** · 14 July 2005, 14:16 Thursday

B&W's produce a FLAT frequency response, 'most' people prefer the lower and higher frequency range to be 'boosted'. aka, 'loudness' switch or treble/bass knob.

**jim777** · 14 July 2005, 14:21 Thursday

Originally posted by junior77blue

B&W's produce a FLAT frequency response, 'most' people prefer the lower and higher frequency range to be 'boosted'. aka, 'loudness' switch or treble/bass knob.

That's true, for the first month or so I had the loudness switch ON all the time and now it's off and bass/treble are set to zero. Now everything (mostly the acoustic stuff like the double-bass) sounds so natural... no more artificial bass-boost for me

**js24** · 14 July 2005, 15:23 Thursday

I like B&Ws.. but I have to disagree, I don't think most of B&Ws produce flat frequency response...
B&Ws signature sound is *forward/a little lean/tad bright, meaning there is a little boost in the mid/high... again, it's not a bad thing.. I actually prefer this over too much laid-back sound

and I don't even have the tone controls in my amp and compared several speakers along with the B&Ws... the result was obvious.- and their published measurements were in good agreement with my impression (checked after audtioning. so my listening was not biased)

If I have to choose between dull/laid back vs. bright/forward, I will choose latter.
but *I* prefer neutral sound

**misterdoggy** · 14 July 2005, 15:26 Thursday

Originally posted by jim777

That's true, for the first month or so I had the loudness switch ON all the time and now it's off and bass/treble are set to zero. Now everything (mostly the acoustic stuff like the double-bass) sounds so natural... no more artificial bass-boost for me

I too was using the "Ebass" (loudness) on at first. Now I leave it off, went natural as well.

**miner** · 14 July 2005, 16:06 Thursday

My 'contour controls' on my Rotel pre are set flat - speakers (804N) sound wonderful.

**junior77blue** · 14 July 2005, 17:35 Thursday

703: 38Hz – 25kHz ±3dB on reference axis

A curve would be nice...but I always considered that to be 'flat'.

Forward sounding? Klipsh's are forward sounding, IN YOUR FACE coloration!!

**Mitchell** · 14 July 2005, 21:49 Thursday

I have 703's with a rotel 1072 cd player. I have found that with the 1072 the 703's bring out all sorts of imperfections in recordings including brightness in some cases.
However, when listening to the radio which I do often, brightness is never an issue whether it be in jazz, classical or rock music. I take that to be an indication that the input source and the material is what makes it bright or not. I assume the tuner just does not deliver the same detail that the 1072 does. I must admit that there is something to be said for the less detail in bad recordings.

**Zoran** · 15 July 2005, 08:30 Friday

Beauty always in the eye of beholder...

Source, cabling, tweeter' height and CD flavour play major roles in "brightness" issue. I owned many B&W's speakers last 15 years, now both 803S and 805S. They might sing brightish with some recordings, particularly 805S, but overall not in degree which disturb music...

Just avoid lean-sounding cables and cheap CD players and B&W sound stops being bright - only open and transparent.

Cheers, B&W brotherhood!

Zoran, Macedonia

**csuzor** · 15 July 2005, 09:57 Friday

Bright is a virtue.
Even my 704 is flat at home, measured recently with some software.
The high-frequency variations shown are caused by the sampling and algorithms, not the speaker. Note the test was done scanning up and down, and clearly shows it is flat throughout the range.
Note the low frequency colorations, due to room reverberations. That's what you have to look out for, if high level resonnance is not an issue (the "clap" test).

**js24** · 15 July 2005, 10:28 Friday

B&Ws are world class speakers, but not the BEST per se
and piano music is not a good source to judge the brightness
use violin, oboe, flute, some brass , etc...compare to other renowned brands... all the speakers in the world are voiced in certain directions...
if you want to criticize horns, try acapella or JBL k2s... those blow almost any B&Ws away (in price, too)

my 703s sound awesome with piano and most of contemporary music... violin concertos.. that's where it falls most significantly. The 802 or above sound much more neutral and balanced, while still maintaining the signature sound.

i have to question your measurement csuzor, how can the 704s be ruler flat from 20hz? (i understand it's a "in room" measurememnt).. no need to buy 801Ds eh?

no apology needed for the brightness... it's NOT a bad thing
i.e. my old man hates Tannoy Westminsters ($30K pair) for their laid back sound... he prefers B&Ws.. it's a personal choice after all.

I like my B&Ws for what they are, not for what I want them to be :B
TGIF!

**Pieter** · 15 July 2005, 12:12 Friday

Originally posted by js24

...and piano music is not a good source to judge the brightness...

I disagree. If there's one thing that miffs me about my Nautilus 805 pair then it's the tendency of those tweeters to do their own thing on a piano recording which has been produced with the upper registers a little too lively. Angela Hewitt's cycle of Bach's keyboard oeuvre on Hyperion comes to mind; too pingy at the top.

That "pinginess" disappears when I listen to Warren Bernhardt tickling the ivories on a DMP release.

What do I make of this? On some recordings the Nautilus 805s are "bright", on others their presentation seems "natural".

I own enough CDs to realise to what extent the quality of what's on the disc varies. One can cater for this variance by using "forgiving" speakers, heck, my PC speakers have never sounded bright. Or one can make one's compromises elsewhere and try to live, at times, with a pingy Angela Hewitt.

**js24** · 15 July 2005, 13:58 Friday

Pieter,
with all respect as I know you're a Bach maniac ;x(

if you think Hewitt in pingy, then Anne-Sophie Mutter on her 4 seasons recording is B!tching :B
one point though... as far as I know the highest note on a normal piano is ~ 4khz... the cross over point..thus, unless Hewit plays everything a couple octaves higher than it is supposed to be, the tweeter is only doing its *harmonics* as expected...
the kevlar handles all the fundamentals... only instruments like violin, harp, piccolo and piano on their highest octaves barely touch the tweeter in their fundamental frequencies..

maybe I'm more sensitve on the scratch string sound than the piano sound as you are.. though I have played piano for 8 years..

this *revealing* nature of B&Ws is can be+ or - up to the listener.. it is just what it is. other high end *revealing* speakers don't sound as harsh and forward as b&W. Personally, I've never encountered any true high end speakers that sounded more forward than B&Ws.. again, for the 100th times, it is not a bad thing.. it's just the B&W signature...

Are B&W speakers bright?

Are B&W speakers bright?

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