Speaker wire for my 802D

[srb]

Chinets,

I actually did make it through your post (!) and you make some good points.

There are many passionate people on this forum, some very much into the pure joy of music, some obsessed with components and mechanics (think hobby!), and others interested in a mix of both.

I do think that if you have the very best source, amplifiers and speakers, there is nowhere else to go to get that last few percent improvement.

But I think for many of us, we will get better sound investing the $500 or $1000 spent on a single cable set into an upgrade of the actual source, amplifier or speakers.

It would be nice if a speaker manufacturer like B&W would offer a set of basic speaker cables that they have tested with a small representative mix of popular amplifiers, and found to be a good match for the price, and allow their speakers to perform to their ability.

But B&W only says to consult your audio dealer for cable recommendations!

[chinets]

Thanks, srb for your comments. The essence of all this is some of us on this forum take it as a hobby, well pointed!!!
We are here to learn, and we hate to get critisized by the Hard core ,obsessed technical, people that have their opinion blasting all us hobby people.
Finally, B & W should have given us some recommendation like speaker wires and what amp. to use with their specific speakers. I am in the dark,but people like you shed light on all of us..Thanks!!!!
Aussie Geoff makes lots of great sense too and I appreciate his valuable comments.
Thanks guys, keep up the great work. We are all ears here!!!!!!!!!! God Bless!

[chinets]

Thanks Aussie Geoff for the editing... you really cleared it up!!!!

What a Pal!!!!!!!

Have a nice Day!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[misterdoggy]

Chinets,

Please excuse my use of the word begging. I did not mean in the derogatory sense of a beggar. Please don't take this expression literally. Maybe its The English I used. So Excuse me, thousand pardons please.

I read every word of yours and I agree when you make the point that buying cables is like buying a car. If one is buying a car, he will try out the different models to see which ones he likes. I feel and its only my opinion, that I would prefer to try something out for myself, rather than what I read in a review, or what science might say. They report they go faster, get better fuel mileage, and many other things that are not true. The same could be said for cables.

One thing is for sure, there seems to be 2 camps and I'm part of the one that believes cables make a big difference. I would like to say that such and such a cable is the best one for you, but your own house, position of your speakers, the rug, the curtains, the amp, the receiver, the electric current, the speakers, the cd player all come together to make a combination. You said, you don't have the time and want quick answers, but as you fall in love with the hobby, the time you will take searching for HIFI NIRVANA can be very rewarding. Enjoy the search.!!

[tboooe]

A lot of places will allow you to audition cables and interconnects for free so you can listen for yourself. That is what I did when trying to decide between <brands deleted by admin>

[chinets]

Misterdoggy,
appology accepted and thank you for your kind and sweet comments.
That makes lots of sense ,and sorry for my long letter to you too!!

I will try and audition some cables and other equipment once I go to London in two weeks time ,and hopefully I'll have a better grasp of things. The dealer here will not accept auditions of any kind. Basically you try you buy!!!Policy.

Misterdoggy, I am fasinated by all your comments all over the forum and you have a great style with writing and you make a lot of sense for us hobby people.

Please keep up the good work and please always understand the Hobby people too.
It might be frustrating but we are NEW and Quick learners and we benefit tremendously from people like you...so please be patient with us.

Thanks misterdoggy and appreciate your valuable comments. Keep up the good work for all of us.

Have a Great day !!! Chinets

[misterdoggy]

Chinets,

Thanks for the Roses !!

One thing is for sure, we are all learning. Even the best most equiped, most read, most experienced audiofile has more to learn. And just to throw in more to the mix, the technology is changing as fast as we are learning.

Attention to a potential pitfall. Often you read that someone says they heard something in the showroom and bought what ever element it was, then when they got it home it sounded like crap. Listening to cables on a $40000 amplifier in a showroom is not going to sound the same in your house. The ideal would be to be able to test different whatever (speaker, amps, cables etc) in your home with your other elements.

A cable doesn't "change" the sound, it only prevents degradation of the sound. In this respect you could say it changes the sound, because it sounds different with different cables, but the ideal is that it prevents degradation and it sounds like when it was made and you are in the room with the musicians.

In the words of a Knowledgeable friend, "It has been observed that good quality interconnects & speaker cable can improve a systems performance over a lesser cable. Trust your ears"

[RobP]

Stockinv, Here is what B&W themselves have to say about speaker wire, I think that I would rather hear it from the people who designed the speakers. I had the same question on my mind as you did and this really helped me in my search for what to look for in a cable...........................................

What speaker cable should I use?


As for any other piece of ancillary equipment, we do not recommend specific speaker cables. Most have their merits, but each is different in one way or another and it is up to the customer to choose whichever suits best. Always get the dealer to demonstrate several different types with the equipment you are going to use.

What is discussed below is a simple overview of some of the factors influencing performance. One thing remains true throughout - cables can only make the sound worse and the shorter you can make them the better. Never forget the importance of keeping all connections clean and secure. Failure to do this can totally negate the advantages of buying a superior quality cable. It is good practice to check all connections on a regular basis.

In many ways, speaker cables are simpler to deal with than line-level interconnects. There are no characteristic impedances to consider and spurious electromagnetic radiation pick-up is inherently lower in proportion to the average signal level. The characteristics of the cable can be divided into two categories - macro and micro. Macro characteristics comprise the bulk electrical parameters of resistance, inductance and capacitance (in other words the cable impedance), and micro characteristics result from such properties as crystal structure, impurities, insulation materials and cable geometry.

Macro properties
The impedance of resistance is constant with frequency (you can have frequency dependent resistance, but that need not concern us here). The impedance of inductance is proportional to frequency and that of capacitance inversely proportional to frequency. Any impedance in series with the speaker has the potential to alter its frequency response. Even pure resistance can do this, because the impedance of the speaker varies significantly with frequency, and the attenuation caused by the external resistance depends on the ratio of the two.

Of particular interest here is the bass region. Closed-box speakers have a peak in the impedance at the fundamental resonance frequency. That is when the mass of the bass driver cone resonates with the stiffness of its mechanical suspension and the air in the enclosure. Vented-box (reflex) speakers have two impedance peaks. The change in response caused by series resistance in the bass region is similar to reducing the strength of the magnet of the bass driver and so are the audible effects. The bass loses its grip and tightness and begins to sound slow. One can, to some degree, acclimatise oneself to changes in response shape at higher frequencies, but the changes in the bass characteristic do not go away with extended listening. We have heard plenty of differences between cables, but whatever the method of construction, in our experience it's always the resistance that controls the bass quality.

The resistance of the cable depends on three factors - the gauge of wire, the length of cable and the conductor material. In this respect, the fatter and shorter the wire the better. Many people ask if it is necessary to make the cable length to all the speakers the same. Systems do not get out of balance if the lengths are different and you should follow the rule of shorter is better to minimise signal degradation. Do, however, allow some spare cable. Don't allow the cable to get stretched tight and, if you use bare wire connections, it is good practice to periodically strip back the insulation to expose fresh conductor.

Excessive inductance in the cable causes a disproportionate loss of extreme high frequencies, making the speaker sound dull and lifeless. In practice, unless you have an extremely long cable, inductance is unlikely to be a problem with any half-decent cable.

Capacitance is not a problem as far as altering the response of the speaker is concerned. Within the audio band, resistance and inductance are more dominant. Excessive capacitance can upset some amplifiers at supersonic frequencies, causing them to send out spurious signals in the audio band, but this is rare with modern amplifiers.

Some speaker cables contain in-line filters. Please refer to the relevant manufacturers' literature to assess the various claims made for this approach.

Micro properties
Here we consider such things as:

Conductor material
Crystal structure
Single strand (solid core) or multi-strand
Geometry and insulation materials
Conductor material
By far the most common material used is copper. Only silver has lower resistivity and it is considerably more expensive. All other things being equal, silver can give better resolution of detail than copper, but this can be more than negated if the crystal structure of the silver is inferior. Carbon is sometimes offered as a conductor material. It suffers less from crystal structure and impurity problems, but has a relatively high resistivity compared to copper and silver. Whereas this is not a problem with line level interconnects, the resistance of even a large gauge carbon speaker cable is generally too high to maintain proper control of the bass response.

Crystal structure
All metals have some form of crystal structure and the electrons have to flow across the boundaries between adjacent crystals. This can potentially cause distortion, particularly if impurities are allowed to permeate the boundary area. The larger you can make the individual crystals, the fewer boundaries there are to cause trouble and the exclusion of oxygen reduces the development of oxide impurities. These factors are controlled in the manufacture of the metal billet and the way it is drawn into wire.

LC-OFC (linear crystal, oxygen-free copper) is a common term in describing the conductor and is the minimum specification for a good speaker cable. The lack of oxygen inhibits the development of impurities and the linear crystals are long in the direction of drawing. Some manufacturers even claim to be able to draw single crystals to lengths of up to 200 metres. Even if this is exaggerated, one might imagine it should be possible to draw crystals up to the whole length of most cables used. Whether it stays that way after the cable has been flexed repeatedly over a period of time, such as for house cleaning, is debatable. Nevertheless, the fewer the crystal boundaries there are, the smoother the sound, especially in the midrange.

Single versus multi-strand cable
There are devotees of both types of cable. Of course, on an absolute scale both parties cannot be right, but the likelihood is that each type complements different speakers, acknowledging the fact that neither is perfect. One of the usually cited reasons for the difference is skin effect, where the current tends to migrate to the outside of the conductor at high frequencies. Again, opinions differ as to whether skin effect makes any significant difference at audio frequencies.

Geometry and insulation materials
Each of the individual conductors in the cable generates a magnetic field around itself. The individual fields interact with one another, generating forces between the conductors. These forces can cause the conductors to move relative to one another. It's the same mechanism that makes transformers hum, but at a lower level. These movements will not necessarily cause audible noise from the cable, but they will affect how the current flows, with a consequent change in the signal to the speaker. The dielectric properties of the insulation have an influence on these magnetic fields as does the juxtaposition of the individual conductors and how tightly their relative positions are held. These factors affect the cable's ability to preserve low-level detail.

[misterdoggy]

"Systems do not get out of balance if the lengths are different and you should follow the rule of shorter is better to minimise signal degradation.

By far the most common material used is copper. Only silver has lower resistivity and it is considerably more expensive. All other things being equal, silver can give better resolution of detail than copper"

Soundgravy,

These two things stuck out to me .....

[jim777]

The bass response depends on resistance, and the resistance depends on length, but you don't debalance the system if the cables have different lengths... that bugs me too.

[RobP]

Yeah, I had a little reservation with that one as well, I keep the cable lengths the same, a lttle comon sense applies here.

[Victor]

I'm in the process of putting together an HT system with 802D's as my mains and HTM2D as my center. Since I'm a relative newbie, I'm not educated in speaker wire. What should I be looking for? Is there a certain minimum guage wire that would give these speakers their best performance? The guy putting this together tells me he's using Monster Cable, but it's not as big as some cables I've seen advertised for sale on the net. Is bigger better?

I would like to add a short coment here. First of all I am in complete agreement with martindemon. He said it all and I cannot add any more to his thoughtfull comments, - no need to spend money on cables. 0.3-0.5$ per foot is all you need to pay.

I recall my favorite cable Blind Test when a megabuck Kimber along with supermegabuck Transperant Cable and some other $250+ per foot cables went head to head with 2 rusted and twisted coat hangers. I had to use 2 hangers to make up about 8 feet long wire. Anyway results were as expected, - nobody could tell them apart. We used 6 Bryston 7Bs and some actively crossed 3-way Tannoy speaker system.

Anyway, here is my recomendation for the speaker cable

http://bwccat.belden.com/ecat/jsp/Index.jsp?&P1=undefined&P2=undefined&P3=undefined&P4=undefined&P5=undefined&P6=undefined

part number: 5000UP 005500
Just type "speaker" in the search window and scroll down to part 5000UP

It comes from Belden, it is gauge 12, it is twisted and color coded. You can get 500 feet roll at about $0.2US per foot. This will be the last cable you will ever buy and it will last you for good.

...regards,
Vic

[Stockinv]

I appreciate all the replies. What I'm reading is that expensive speaker wire is not as important as many hi-end dealers would like us to believe. Can the same be true for interconnects? Is the quality of interconnects more important than the quality of speaker wire?

[ironchef]

I found an online cable suppiler willing to send me a $300 silver IC to evaluate it before I bought one. I bought it, and I was thankful for the improvement at the reasonable price. The difference was *not* subtle.

I believe that the problem most of us have with the expense is the experience of ownership imparted after the money has been dropped. The cable really has the least bang for the buck of any equipment purchase in this regard, as it is usually not only not visible, but it's a frickin' CABLE...

Really most of the doubters of cable benefits just need to find a 'try before you buy' site, and take the risk-free plunge.
If only in the interest of adding depth to an interesting online duscussion ;-)

[Mitchell]

Just a thought.
I had this conversation with a very knowlegable person who commented that friends of his were electrical engineers that worked at a company that made test equipment and that the kinds of wire and interconnects effected readings on the test equipment.
Whether this would mean it is an audible difference I dont know but there is a measurable difference.

[Mitchell]

One more thought.
All things being equal I would hope everyone would at least give CAT cables a look as they created and sponsor this great forum. They also seem to have a very good reputation.

[misterdoggy]

Its pretty unbelieveable the 2 camps divided on this subject. :bash:

I have silver wire and heard the same detail "clearer'. Just as a chain is as weak as its weakest link, the systems we put together are as weak as their weakest link. If you have fairly 'inexpensive material', 'maybe' you won't be able to notice a difference. If you have top quality material, IMHO there is no chance you won't be able to hear a difference.

And to answer the question about interconnects, the answer stays the same. Think of your system as a heavy duty chain links. You have big unbreakable 1 inch diameter link chain to lock up your motorcylce. What would be the point, if only 1 of the links, was only 1/2 inch in diameter. There is a weight that when you use the chain, it will break, and the point will be the 1/2 inch link.

Or when you are saving computer information and change the format, and resave in another format and then want to come back to the orignal format there is information lost. Ie: Jpeg to Gif and back. When the detail passes thru the point of lesser quality it can never be transformed back or refound.

Better cable will never make the sound better. It just prevents degradation better.

The interconnects are more important IMHO.

[aphexist]

Better cable will never make the sound better. It just prevents degradation better.

I agree.

However, would you have to buy anything more expensive than standard 12ga Belden wire or shielded Belden coax if you were shown that signal:noise is the same or better than an expensive boutique brand?

Would you still buy the expensive cable if you were shown that the cable manufacturer used Belden cable to make his own branded cables?

Would you buy the expensive cable if your ears could NOT tell a difference in between the two cables?

[misterdoggy]

I agree.

However, would you have to buy anything more expensive than standard 12ga Belden wire or shielded Belden coax if you were shown that signal:noise is the same or better than an expensive boutique brand?

Would you still buy the expensive cable if you were shown that the cable manufacturer used Belden cable to make his own branded cables?

Would you buy the expensive cable if your ears could NOT tell a difference in between the two cables?

To anwer your question. If "I" could not "HEAR" a difference, I wouldn't pay one dime. It could be my system wouldn't appreciate the upgrade as has been said in not all systems will see a discernible difference.

But if "YOU" heard more detail and clarity would spend big $$ to have it. :tennis:

[Cyclesberuff]

Well here I go sticking my foot in my mouth! I'm new to this site so bear with me if I'm not an expert. I feel that my past months experience is what this this post is about.

One week ago I rounded off my Rotel equipment by purchasing the rc1090 complementing the rb1080 and Polk Audio RTi 12's I had up graded from Denon 2805
I was looking forward to this set up,only to find that unfortunately the set up was too harsh to listen to.The speakers hurt my ears and I did not know what to do.

I researched interconnects and after reading through all the customer reviews I decided on some mid priced interconnects. I was dissappointed to find only a slight improvement. I was forced to angle my speakers away from me, anything to get rid of a harsh shrill that my tweeters were producing.

I went back to the drawing board. I read product reviews on all the speaker wire brands as well as the customer testomonials.After sifting through tons of literature I decided on one pair that stood out as meeting my problem.I found thier website and contact info. The next day I called them up and found myself speaking to the owner, he convinced me to buy them. So I backed it up by dropping 500 USD

Yesterday after work I picked them up at the authorized dealer, took them home and connected them.Oh boy ! What a difference. Immediatley I noticed the improvements.
Gone was the harsh shrill and I'm now able to direct the speakers towards me once more. Prior to the speaker cables I could not turn the volume up past One I felt that eventually I would damage my ear drums. Now only out of respect to my neighbors I listen to the volume at three or four but with out any harsh shrills.

IMO the speaker cables made a big difference but I also realized that they will not make a bad recording sound better (Sibilance?) I find long hard SSSsss at times but no harsh tweeters or shriils that follow afterwards.

I hope this helps some who are in my situation. I kept to the rules of this site by not saying any brand names, only giving my opinion as to weather or not speaker cables make a difference.Also just a thought, for me at least, I can say that speaker wire is what you buy at commercial stores but speaker cables are custom built, after market add ons. In my case they worked.

Thanks for reading this JFB (cyclesberuff)

[NonSense]

Inside of your Parasound C1 and your Krell amps, there are wires that lead to the outputs where you connect your cables. If you examine these wires, you will see that they are generic 12ga. shielded copper leads soldered to the binding posts. These have been chosen because they fit their purpose: to conduct a signal with minimal loss between two points. Do you think something magical is happening to the signal once it leaves the amp chassis? If so, you might want to consider getting your internal wires upgraded so you can realize the same benefints INSIDE your equipment.

I just wanted to point out that the cable being used inside high quality componnents such as Krell amplifiers, may indeed be high quality type cabling. The short lenghts and enclosure shielding reduce the necessity for complicated winding geometry, but I would bet they are high purity conductors. This is part of the reason these type of components carry the extra price tag.

For example (taken from the specifications of Hovland HP-100 Pre-amplifier):

http://www.hovlandcompany.com/products/electronics/hp100/features.html

Critical signal wiring is Hovland Generation 3 shielded silver plated interconnect and Music Groove 2 phono wire.

I think many who have heard this unit would agree that it is a fine piece of gear. Every component has be specifically selected by the designer for a particular musical quality, even the cabling.


Older B&W 800 series speaker components used very good quality Van Den Hul cabling within their enclosures.


Even audio PCB's which are inherently conductors differ in quality, which in the end effects sound quality. Lower cost components will use single or double sided PCB's on FR-4, while better construced designs may use multi-layer with ground planes, and could even go as far as using better dielectric material. Better layouts results a in lower noise floor, offering better overall sound quality. This costs money and generally only found on higher end pieces of gear.

There is also a large DIY market for upgraded Hook-up wire for audio components. No names mentioned, but some of the big boys have offerings for those who wish to tweek their components.

Those audiophiles who invest in high quality audio cables ($$$) generally ensure that this level of quality is carried thoughout their system, which includes the internals of their components.


I would agree that it's not for everyone, and you mileage may vary.

[aphexist]

For example (taken from the specifications of Hovland HP-100 Pre-amplifier):

http://www.hovlandcompany.com/products/electronics/hp100/features.html

Critical signal wiring is Hovland Generation 3 shielded silver plated interconnect and Music Groove 2 phono wire.

Wow...they went out and bought some expensive cables from...themselves.

Look guys...there is nothing wrong with using good materials. All I'm saying is that you don't have to pay much to get "the best."

[misterdoggy]

Look guys...there is nothing wrong with using good materials. All I'm saying is that you don't have to pay much to get "the best."

In this case you do have to pay A LOT to get the best !!!

Try Brand "X's" $700 a 3m biwire cable ($1400 for the pair) and tell me you don't hear a difference. Me thinks not. :sn

Its possible to spend $11000 just for a pair of cables. ?

Its no secret, you get what you pay for in life. If you you want the best, get ready to "shell out some clams"

Nonsense You get right to the point !! No Nonsense :td:

[JetFlyGuy]

There are lots of things that truly exist even though they cannot be quantified by science. (Love for example)... I can scientifically compare a ferrari and a ford, and say they both have four wheels, both have an engine, both are built from metal, and therefore there is no difference, and people would laugh at me because the difference is obvious, with cables the differnce is much more subtle, but it IS THERE! Not to mention that many higher end cables have packs on them that limit bandwidth to reduce noise introduction, or resistors that make unequal cable lengths appear electrically identical to the gear, (I wont mention the brand name I am referring to) - So to that end, there are significant differences to be considered here... These arguments seem like a waste of time, because nobody seems to change their mind, but I can say that I have heard the difference, and it was not imagined, so to me there is no real debate..

[aphexist]

There are lots of things that truly exist even though they cannot be quantified by science. (Love for example)

I'm starting to think that disenfranchised members of the Flat Earth Society have started migrating to the High-End Cable society.

It's funny that you mention love. Upon pondering the issue, I realize that the perception of love between humans is similar to the perception of an improvement when upgrading to more expensive cables. Purely psychological.

How strong is your conviction, then? Would you wager money that you could tell the difference between your cables and "generic" brand every time? I can fly to your location and conduct a supervised double-blind test with 12ga speaker from Home Depot vs. Anyone Else's favorite high-end cables. I will wager $1000 that you cannot identify your cable every time in a set of 12 listening tests with your music on your system.

[misterdoggy]

Upon pondering the issue, I realize that the perception of love between humans is similar to the perception of an improvement when upgrading to more expensive cables. Purely psychological.

Aphexist, I think you and Camp A will never accept what we are saying and we in Camp B can only be perplexed by your insistance.

I accept you heard nothing, you too, will have to accept we heard something.

You will have to think about, that there were many knowledgeable people here who were in the Camp B, and Nobody likes to throw away money for nothing.

[audioqueso]

Camp A vs Camp B.... fight! lol

[Aussie Geoff]

Hi,

Sadly this thread is in danger of becoming one of the thousands of pointless (and often increasigly bitter) arguments between those who believe they can hear differences between some cables and those who don't believe they can. These threads litter internet forums and have for the last decade....

Please if you have had your say (for or against) try not to say the same thing again in more posts and accept that others may not share the same views.... I do not want to have to lock this thread, nor to I want people becoming instransagent either way...

What I would say though is anyone arguing there is no difference should make sure that they do so from personal authoriity and (if they have not done so already) go to a high end dealer with their favourite demo material and ask them to show them the differences between cables... If you have tried this and come back hearing nothing different, then good luck to you as you can save lots on $...

I was in that camp for years untl I listenned to some quality cables on a good system and for me (real or not) the difference was significant enough to go on a personal hunt for great value cables. I now spend a reasonable proportion (5-10%) of the cost of my system on carefully selected cables. Others are happy with Home Depot or Radio Shacks' finest and that's fine too... Each to their own - Audio is a personal and subjective experience...

Regards

Geoff

[misterdoggy]

Amen, RIP :banghead:

[NeutralMAN]

The funny thing is that people are trying to prove their beleifs to everyone else. If you believe it does or deosn't make a difference, thats cool. Just enjoy your own hobby (obsession? :lol: ) and let things be.

For the Cable believers: just think of how much joy you are getting from your plasma injected, plutonium plated, rhodium evaporated cables :W

For the Scientists: Just think of how much joy you are getting for not being fooled by the mega buck cable manufacturers. :W

Either way ignorance is bliss, since no one ever knows everything, therefore igonorant in a way.

To conclude, it's about what makes you happy and bring you joy. Relating to audio, if someone enjoys to listed to a rock concert with ear plugs, so be it!!

NeutralMAN

Assue Geoff - A nice note to close this thread on!