Speaker wire for my 802D

[Stockinv]

I'm in the process of putting together an HT system with 802D's as my mains and HTM2D as my center. Since I'm a relative newbie, I'm not educated in speaker wire. What should I be looking for? Is there a certain minimum guage wire that would give these speakers their best performance? The guy putting this together tells me he's using Monster Cable, but it's not as big as some cables I've seen advertised for sale on the net. Is bigger better?

[Kens1]

Hard to say if bigger is better. I've seen very expensive cable at the dealers that is both very thick and some that is very thin - so I could not tell you. I use to use monster cable 10 gauge but have since swithched to custom made cable that is a little thinner but the sound has not changed much. I do find the sound of the new cable more detailed though.

[JetFlyGuy]

My hifi dealer is encouraging me to upgrade to some VERY expensive wire (1,800 US for the front stage)... the wires are made by a company called transparent, and I have been blown away by the products of theirs that I have tried. My wires are run through the walls in my media room, but the dealer has offered to let me try a set that I can just lay on the floor to see if I can tell a difference. I will report to the forum what I find out.

[misterdoggy]

Stockinv
I used thick gauged wire of different metals and bigger isnt always better. I have tried lots of different cables, from RCA to XLR, from every maker you can think of and part of the answer lies in trying it out with YOUR system. Ive had monster but you can really spend any amount up to more than an amplifier on a set of wires. I am currently using Nordost Red Dawns, having upgraded from Nordost Solar Wind, having upgraded from Nordost Flatline. Each time there is an improvement in sound that is slight but discernable enough that it was worth it. Im in to cables for at least $4000. But still searching for hifi nirvana.

[aphexist]

the dealer has offered to let me try a set that I can just lay on the floor to see if I can tell a difference. I will report to the forum what I find out.

That should be a really engaging and interesting review. Be sure to use some cable risers so the cables aren't bombarded with static electricity from the floor. A VEIL HAS BEEN LIFTED!!!

[perato]

Peruse Audioholics cable articles. You can also read the Audioholics Cable Buying Guide but do not get obsessed about a percentage of system cost. Spend as little as possible to get cables that measure well.

Beware, this site abhors cable discussions. This thread might get shutdown.

[KvHagedorn]

Here's a good essay for you.

http://www.roger-russell.com/wire/wire.htm

The first table is informative. Remember the impedence dips in the 800 series speakers, so just use the 2 ohm figures. This is why fat speaker wire usually gives you better bass (assuming your amp can also handle the dips.)

Dunno about the really esoteric wire, but I've been using ofc 9 gauge/12 gauge biwired for my 802s since I got them, and have been quite pleased.

[PewterTA]

I use Belden Speaker cable for my whole setup and it's not pretty like the expensive expensive cables....but when compared to them, they perform the same....so to me as long as you get decent cabling that's a good guage (12, 10, or better) then it's all good. You can try to drive yourself nuts over figuring out what cable to get. To me, I'd rather spend a few buck on some quality cable, instead of spending LARGE amounts on cabling when I could put that into better quality components/speakers.

[JetFlyGuy]

The last time I wrestled with putting 'lots' of money toward something boring instead of a shiny new component it was with regard to acoustic panels for my HT room. I must say, even though they are simply cloth covered fiberglass, installing them in the room made the biggest improvement of any single change I have ever made. My opinion is that we call our systems "systems" for a reason: They are comprised of many parts, and each plays a roll... So yes, speaker wire is important, and my experiences have shown that they certainly are not created equally. The stronger the system is as a whole, the easier it becomes to introduce a bottleneck... Certainly good wire is not going to make a bad system sound good, and bad wire may not even make a good system sound bad, but I think it is reasonable to think that good speaker wire can contribute to a good system sounding it's best.

[chinets]

Are Monster XP-500 cable; MIT AVTOP3-IM and MIT AVTOP2-IM with MIT Banana PLUGS and Monster MB/ski-28 speaker wires and connections good for B&W speakers of 803/804 ???? Just curious as I have no clue about speaker wires. Are they any good ,because my dealer just put those without for me without my approval or anything and told they are very Good???

[Stockinv]

One thing I have learned is that can be a huge markup on speaker wire, so always be careful about what an installer is recommending and discuss price beforehand.

[misterdoggy]

Here's an idea to test wires against each other. Run the system on mono coming out of only the front 2 speakers. On the right speaker put cabling "X" and on the left speaker Cabling "Y". Using only Mono source listen to ONLY the left, and then back to the right. You can even start by checking interconnects left and right, then speaker wire left and right and then combinations of interconnects and speaker wire. If "X" for $100 sounds just as good as "Y" for $500 then so be it. If "Y" sounds $400 better, then reach in your pockets if they are deep enough. If its really close, then you can rest at ease, that you didn't waste any money. And for those of you who can afford to throw money away, buy what makes you happy. !! :conveyer:

Remember there is more to wire than thickness, there's insulation, there's conductivity ie sliver and gold, there's quality contacts and solder, resistance, fabrication and then there's the brand name behind the quality. :T

[martindemon]

Care must be taken when reading the technical arguments from cable manufacturers. First let me say that I'm a doctor in electrical engineering in Quebec, so they can't fool me with that. There are some arguments that are so much far fetched that one of my professors talked about it in a course about electromagnetics (or was it in fundamental II?; not exact titles because the courses were in french...) The skin effect is negligible in the 20Hz to 20kHz range (the resistance does not rise by more than 2-3% when approaching 20kHz.) The effect of a silver plating on a cable does not reduce significantly the resistance for higher frequencies, first because of the very low skin effect, which mean that a lot of higher frequency signals will be passing through the copper (except for the very center) and the silver; the sectional surface of the silver will be a small compared to the sectional surface of copper where high frequencies pass. And the conductivity of copper is almost as good as the conductivity of silver. All that result in a completely negligible effect (scientifically and to the ear.)

Directional cables is an impossible concept. The only way a cable can sound different is if there are semiconductors hidden in it (which would be feasible, but would result in a completely transformed sound that would no longer be music.) There is no "electron migration" in a cable insulator.

There was several double blind tests here in Quebec with several "believers" in cable differences. Someone brought a "cheap" 12 gauge and someone brought several very expensive cables and a switchbox. Everybody listened to all cables several times while someone changed cables from time to time. Each time, people were trying to identify if the cheap cable or the expensive cable was used. The results were that it was impossible for 8 audiophiles to do so. It also resulted in the closing of the topic where the results were discussed. Of course, the believers were saying that to ear a difference, one must listen to the cable for at least a week. Of course changing every week make it impossible to really compare because the mind quickly forget how the other cable exactly "sounded"... And there are other factors that would have to be taken into account in a long term test: personal fatigue, current health, noise exposure (gone to a show?,) mood, stress, ...

My own personal conclusion was always to buy quality cables but just enough to make sure the cables are well made; I ended up paying something like 50 cents a foot. In my opinion it is really better to put money on a very good amplifier and speakers and source. I came to this conclusion after some research, computations and university courses. I respect those who believe otherwise because I can't prove they are wrong. If they hear a difference, I believe they really believe there is a true difference. In my case, I'm happy because I can hear no difference, which mean that my cables are less expensive.

[mourrri]

Martindemon,

I agree with you and I'm glad you posted that note. IMO as long the cable is well made that's all that matters, it's not rocket science, the rest is about marketing. If I want to improve my sound then I'll trade up my speakers and components before I put any more money into wires.

To each his own I suppose !

Rick

[misterdoggy]

Well I just did a test between heavy duty Monster cable with quality connects against Nordost Red Dawn $575 speaker cable (a speaker) and I can report that although a quick glance you would say there was no difference, there was absolutely 100% a significant difference. The Red Dawns were brighter and more detail. Cleaner sounding. I did this test with my 18 year old son who is a pianist at the conservatory, which means he is studying the piano and music. We listened to Rubinstein playing Chopin's Nocturnes, so it was only piano. My son's eyes were closed and I switched back and forth A to B. I was frightened that I may have thrown away money on the Emperors clothes, but for whatever reason, silver, gold, something in the mixture made it sound better, clearer, more detail and brighter, by ALOT.

If one thing Science CAN explain, is that there is not always a clear explanation for anything which has so many varying factors involved. I believe my ears and I was ready to be subjective and uninfluenced.

The difference might as much as comparing a different speaker. Like the difference in a 803S and 803D. You do hear it. Some would say when comparing these 2 speakers that they don't hear the difference, which I find hard to believe.

[aphexist]

The difference might as much as comparing a different speaker. Like the difference in a 803S and 803D. You do hear it. Some would say when comparing these 2 speakers that they don't hear the difference, which I find hard to believe.

That is not a good comparison. There is science to explain why the 803D sounds different from the 803S. The 803D has an additional bass driver, a more complex crossover, and a diamond tweeter instead of aluminum.

Speakers have moving parts and their performance can be directly measured and perceived by the frequency response, efficiency, and lack of distortion. High-end speakers are finely tuned machines.

On the other hand, what are the factors with wire and interconnects? When it comes down to it, they are just a piece of copper between your components and your system. As long as they are well constructed, have good connectors, reject RFI/RMI, and are made of reasonably pure copper, you don't need anything else. A cables only job is conduct an electrical signal. As long as it does this job within a small margin of error, fancy designs, pretty jackets, Zoebel networks, et al. are just eye candy.

If you like to think you have golden ears, so be it, but half of you old-timers are complaining about tinnitus in the same breath that you exbound on the benefits of your exotic cables. Sorry dudes, but those high-frequencies are long gone, and they ain't coming back.

Perhaps instead of cryogenically freezing your cables, you should freeze yourselves so that when the technology exists to regrow your inner ear cilia, you won't be dead.

[Mark_C.]

Perhaps instead of cryogenically freezing your cables, you should freeze yourselves so that when the technology exists to regrow your inner ear cilia, you won't be dead.

That concludes today's lesson on "How to Win Friends and Influence People.''

[aphexist]

That concludes today's lesson on "How to Win Friends and Influence People.''

Tough love, people, tough love...

[tboooe]

Mark_c: thats a cool book...i read it college

[misterdoggy]

That is not a good comparison. There is science to explain why the 803D sounds different from the 803S. The 803D has an additional bass driver, a more complex crossover, and a diamond tweeter instead of aluminum.

If you like to think you have golden ears, so be it, but half of you old-timers are complaining about tinnitus in the same breath that you exbound on the benefits of your exotic cables. Sorry dudes, but those high-frequencies are long gone, and they ain't coming back.

Im not gonna react to the age comment. Actually the GREATEST pianistes play better at 80 years old, then they did at 25. Vladimir Horowitz and Artur Rubinstein played their greatest pieces at very old ages. Everyone gets their chance at getting older. aphexist, If you play your cards right, you make it too and maybe you might do as well as Im doin.

I WAS TALKING WITH AN EXPERT AT B&W TODAY ABOUT CABLES. He pointed out that different cables can sound different and provide their own signature to the sound, they are to be used to tailor the sound from the electronics, the speakers, room acoustics and to personal listening tastes. He personally tried lots of cables and heard differences created in the same speakers by different cables. He also pointed out that lesser speakers or some aspect of the system could be more forgiving and therefore not reveal a noticeable difference.

To respond to your scientific explanations, from my experience as an 'old timer' what science tells us is good to eat now, will kill us in 10 years. Science does not have all the answers, but with age and experience comes a little wisdom. I fully understand the difference between the 803D and S, but I said 'some' people can't even hear the difference. Like 'YOU' can't hear the difference between different cables. My sons ears at 18 and studying to be a Pianist, probably has "better" listening ability than Mister 'scientist'. There are lots of things Science does not explain and this seems to be a strong point for some.

IMHO, in a system of quality, I can guarantee if you listen to Nordost Valhalla's on the left speaker and monster cable on the right you will "hear" a HUGE difference. NO question about it. Enough for some to pay for it. I wouldn't waste a dime if I didn't hear it. But I wouldn't hesitate to pay to improve on something already very nice.

aphexist: I'm waiting for you personally to make a test. Not what you read from a book or want to prove scientifically. There was alot of questions raised about the blind test made with the 8 audiofiles. I mean would you accept the results for a vaccine based on a Mickey mouse test on 8 people. No way. Give me results with 100 or 200, not a bunch of guys where some left early because they were bored and yawning. There is no way you could not hear the difference. NO WAY JOSE !! :bash:

The Truth is that you have a system in your house that you are "used" to hearing and if you make a change in the wire and shift between the 2 then you should notice the difference from what you are used to listening to. Not at some other situation where you don't know the speakers or the room and everything is new. Make the test at home and see for yourself. I did arty:[SIZE=5][FONT=Arial Black]

[chinets]

Martindemon opened my mind to what he has stated, and he knows what he is talking about being that he is a Doctor in electrical engineering ,so I really believe he is right. It just makes sense. Furthermore, I was impressed by what Aphexist said which basically proves that it is a waste of time to worry about "Wow $$$" cables , when they are just get cables and thats it!!. On this thread I was asking whether Monstercables were good ,as my dealer installed it without informing me, and just said they were great cables and they cost me an arm and a leg. I just wished I had known what Martindemon and Aphexist had stated in this thread and would have gone for normal copper cables. Well we learn from our experiences and Knowledge of people such as you people. Good Job guys and great valuable information and extremely educational.

[misterdoggy]

I just wished I had known what Martindemon and Aphexist had stated in this thread and would have gone for normal copper cables. Well we learn from our experiences and Knowledge of people such as you people.

chinets, ARE YOU KIDDING!! Why instead of sending me and everyone e-mails begging for information, go out and use your ears and MAKE YOUR OWN MIND UP. aphexist believes in science, you believe in whatever advice someone throws at you, but I think everyone should trust their own ears and go and listen. :toilet:

Here's THE BOWERS AND WILKENS WEBSITE PAGE FOR DISCUSSION ON CABLES

http://www.bwspeakers.com/index.cfm/fuseaction/local.faq/ObjectID/F5CA2780-3D20-11D4-A67F00D0B7473B37

[martindemon]

For me, the problem is:
1) I was already burned on useless, well marketed things in the past, on the computing domain (new graphic card that is 3 times as expensive, but only 10% faster; dual channel memory kits; "good brands" of DVD writers...) I literally spent hundreds uselessly on things that gave me no benefits that I could feel, or even no benefits at all. So my red flag is rather fast when I find something strange.
2) The technical speak given by the expensive cable manufacturers do not match with the engineering courses I have followed at university.

But even after that, if someone near me has one more of those very expensive cables that I can borrow, I will test it and check if I can hear differences, first changing the cable myself, and then double testing myself with a friend. But I'm not ready to buy 500$+ of cables without test or proof from companies that use what I see as strange and questionable physical and technical principles to market their products. My mind is still opened to the possibility of cable differences, but the opportunity is just not there for now.

[misterdoggy]

The whole Cable industry could not exist on hype alone. People are too savy and what ever it is will swim or sink.

I read about the test that was made and it was really Mickey Mouse. People were bored, uninterested and some left early. That was no reference. Our Ears are the final reference. I think only people who have tested high qulaity wires against thick gauge copper wires CAN give an opinion. Not what they read in a book, but what they heard with their own ears.

[martindemon]

There are a lot of things that live on marketing:
1) Bose
2) "dual channel" memory kits on computers
3) Many computer games (short term buying compulsion, but all the same, lots of people buy games that are not what they were supposed to be... Ever heard about "Black and White" fiasco?)
I can think about other things but they would begin to be objectable by many many peoples...

What I fear is the phychoacoustic phenomenon; would I hear a difference because there is one, or would my mind trick me into thinking there is one? That's why only a double blind test made on me or measures in a lab would convince me. So, until I find someone near Trois-Rivieres in Quebec, who could come at my place with an expensive cable of his, I guess I'll not have a final answer.

[misterdoggy]

That's why only a double blind test made on me or measures in a lab would convince me. So, until I find someone near Trois-Rivieres in Quebec, who could come at my place with an expensive cable of his, I guess I'll not have a final answer.

I can assure you that unlike some of the references you make, many many people who have the finest systems invest in fine quality cable. You can be sure at top recording Studios they invest in the best cable. While speaking with B&W he referred to "blank blank brand" for their showrooms. You can be sure they are not using 12 gauge lamp wire. It is as important as any other aspect in the chain. The interconnects, speaker wire, are links. You blind test is a good idea. I did. You need to get both, 'close and far' to ascertain. The difference for my son and I was "wow" clear as day. It made me think, who are these people that can't recognize the difference ? Did they really test it. :banghead:

[jim777]

Well I guess that I'll pursue my Ph.D. degree, so that I will never be fooled again :rofl:

And OK for solid copper, like the stuff we put in the walls; but I'm curious to know if martin calculated the caracteristics of stranded copper? with and without impurities? Then not silver alone, but the probably complex interactions that can happen when the two are combined? Then I wonder, are "negligible" 2% or 3% changes perceptible or not?

Oh, and I think that a reference to an experience with no details to prove a claim is Ok for a Ph.D.

So I'm not saying that price = performance, but it's not because a difference it is hard or impossible to prove something, that it doesn't exist. In the codec industry, we still would like to have a computer model to reliably replace subjective (humain) tests, but no such test is reliable enough...

Just my 2 cents too

[martindemon]

Well I guess that I'll pursue my Ph.D. degree, so that I will never be fooled again :rofl:

And OK for solid copper, like the stuff we put in the walls; but I'm curious to know if martin calculated the caracteristics of stranded copper? with and without impurities? Then not silver alone, but the probably complex interactions that can happen when the two are combined? Then I wonder, are "negligible" 2% or 3% changes perceptible or not?

Oh, and I think that a reference to an experience with no details to prove a claim is Ok for a Ph.D.

So I'm not saying that price = performance, but it's not because a difference it is hard or impossible to prove something, that it doesn't exist. In the codec industry, we still would like to have a computer model to reliably replace subjective (humain) tests, but no such test is reliable enough...

Just my 2 cents too

Well, it's not like I seriously worked on this. In fact, I'm specialized in simulation of power systems so it's a bit far from hifi audio I give you that. Now, seriously studying that subject would require an enormous quantity of time. The calculations I made were done for a 12 gauge wire of pure copper and pure copper plated with pure silver (don't remember the thickness.) I stopped there because at the time, theory was telling me that the effect of plating was really negligeable. Now for a stranded wire... One way to do it would be to suppose that the wire has a uniform section from one end to the other and use a finite element simulation program like Flux2d, or JMAG, or Femlab... I modeled a reluctance motor in a course and it takes a lot of work to do a good work, perhaps at least 40 hours to do something that give relevant results; I might just do that if I win a few millions and don't have to work everyday.

Speaking about 2%-3% resistance difference, if a cable has an impedance of about 0.1 Ohms (for example, as recommanded by B&W) and a speaker has an impedance of 8 Ohms (lets suppose that it is constant for the range 20Hz-20kHz), them the speaker will get 8/(8+0.1)*100% = 98.765% of the total voltage given by the amplifier, if the amplifier is supposed to act like a perfect controlled voltage source. By Joule's law, P=V^2/R, so if a 1 volt signal arrive by a perfect cable, the power consumed by the speaker will be:
P=1*1/8=0.125W
If the cable is not ideal (0.1 Ohms for example), then the power at the speaker will be:
P=0.98765*0.98765/8=0.12193W
Now is the interresting part; what happens if the impedance of the cable is 3% higher:
V=8/(8+0.103)= 0.98729V
P=0.98729*0.98729/8=0.12184W

Difference in discipated power of speaker if impedance of cable changes by 3%, when a 1 volt signal is applied:
Difference=(0.12184-0.12193)/0.12193*100=0.0738%

That difference in power should result in a negligible difference of dBs of music produced by the speaker. I slept only 3 hours so feel free to correct any moustruous errors I could have made.

I really think that it is possible that there could be real differences in cables, just to make it clear I think you (believers) are honest and sane persons but, well, I really have to find someone with a special very expensive cable to try it, like you say, to have a real comparison.

[Andorian]

Hi All,

Just one more brand for wires and interconnectors to consider, Audioquest
I know it is not cheap but you get what you pay for.
Audioquest cables, from Pikespeaks to Everest are very naturrally sounding ones, I have Pikespeaks, I want Vulcanos!.

And even more convincing the interconnectors Audioquents Cheetah, and really Sky!! (expensive, Yes!!) oh they make a difference.
Andor.

[js24]

Poll:
A pair of $200 wire on the 804S vs. $$$$ Nordost Valhala on the 703... all other things being equal.. which one do you guys think sound better? :B

[misterdoggy]

We have to be careful not to mention brand names as our website sponsor is a Brand. We can talk about quality, materials, tests etc, but risk to be taken off if we start recommending Brands.

No matter what the Scientific equation might be, when other influences come in to play the equation changes. If we throw the equations out the window and listen to our ears we will know the truth.

[js24]

um... not to offend some of you...or anything.. but all of your electronics, house, and speakers are built based on scientific equations.... and even your body functions based on biochemical reactions that can be explained mathematically

how can you ditch science when everything - even your emotion is scientific a quality???

ancient religions were born when there was no science...
back to the future anyone?? :B

[martindemon]

We have to be careful not to mention brand names as our website sponsor is a Brand. We can talk about quality, materials, tests etc, but risk to be taken off if we start recommending Brands.

No matter what the Scientific equation might be, when other influences come in to play the equation changes. If we throw the equations out the window and listen to our ears we will know the truth.

I totally agree with you on that. The precision of simulation results obtained by any model is always limited by what was supposed in the construction of the model. The modelization process can be redone again and again (it never ends.) In this case, while the hypothesis hold, the model is valid (for the specified conditions for which the model was built.) An exact model is impossible to build, but the "art" of the good engineer is to know what to neglect.

I think that what puts the fire in the rear end of all engineers is that when we build an amplifier, we can easily explain why it sounds good. It has something to do about how we polarized the transistors or tubes, how god is the power regulation, how good is the power supply, what capacitors are used (yes, they have different measurable frequency characteristics.)

Here are ideas:
How about putting a monoblock 2 inches away of each speakers? Certainly, 2 inches cannot harm the signal? Why not solder the amplifier directly to the crossover? Do you replace the wires inside the B&W speakers? And finally, what wire do they use inside their 47,000$ Nautilus Prestige? I would be very curious.

[misterdoggy]

However in some situations having speakers wired directly to the amplifier may lead to improved sound, however this then erradicates the efforts of bi-wiring which is where the length of the cable comes into its own..

JS24 I don't want to throw science out the window and ignore the facts. There might be something in the equation that has not been added or subtracted. Some man-made miscalculation in construction, some accident in process that ended up with better sound, that they say, Well that sounds good, lets go with that for what ever reason. They were looking for Heart medicine when they found Viagra by mistake. Well, that works lets make a few hundred billion. I'm just saying, that you can show me all the equations in the world and if it works better for any reason, thats all that counts.

[aphexist]

Im not gonna react to the age comment. Actually the GREATEST pianistes play better at 80 years old, then they did at 25. Vladimir Horowitz and Artur Rubinstein played their greatest pieces at very old ages. Everyone gets their chance at getting older. aphexist, If you play your cards right, you make it too and maybe you might do as well as Im doin.

I'm not challenging your success, because I admire both your stereo equipment and your business. The tinnitus comment was a bit harsh, but please don't take it as more than good-natured joking.

The reason I bought that up is because high-end cables sell because they claim to offer benefits in the "detail" of music, which tends to be the high frequency bits. Hearing loss, especially loss associated with tinnitus, affects the higher frequency response of the ear first. Therefore, I suggested that someone who complains of tinnitus and purchases high-end cables might be upgrading the wrong component in the system.

I have "tested" many different cables in my systems (including your Red Dawns and Blue Heavens). I use this term lightly because my test was flawed. There was a period of >30 seconds between passages. I also was getting out of my listening chair, doing the switching of the cables myself, starting and stopping the music, and waiting for the part of the music that I was listening critically for detail. Not a very good test.

For most people, auditory memory is around 5 seconds. Your son, being a trained musician, might have developed auditory memory in the range of 7-8 seconds. How quickly were you switching the cables, starting the music, etc. Were your switching the cables A-B-A-B or randomly? Were you playing the exact same passage every time? Finally, I have to ask. Is what you are hearing better, or just different?



Inside of your Parasound C1 and your Krell amps, there are wires that lead to the outputs where you connect your cables. If you examine these wires, you will see that they are generic 12ga. shielded copper leads soldered to the binding posts. These have been chosen because they fit their purpose: to conduct a signal with minimal loss between two points. Do you think something magical is happening to the signal once it leaves the amp chassis? If so, you might want to consider getting your internal wires upgraded so you can realize the same benefints INSIDE your equipment.

[audioqueso]

I believe there are differences in cable, but I doubt there is a cable that makes a night and day difference. In my system composed of B&W 805, Marantz SR6400 (pre), and Parasound 1205A amp, I tried listening to the following speaker and interconnect cables:

Blue Jeans cable
regular Home Depot cable
Transparent cable

I didn't but the Transparent, the local dealer let me borrow it so that I can see for myself. The Home Depot wire made a big difference, just no detail at all but I think because of how thin it was. The Transparent cable was better than the Blue Jean cable, but that was only with careful listening. From a glance, my wife heard no difference. I barely heard a difference. So to me, it isn't worth it... Transparent cost an arm and a leg for what? A .01% difference? Go out and listen for yourself, but I agree that it is better to save your money and just get some good quality cable... not these crazy priced cables.

[misterdoggy]

My son's hearing is pretty good being a pianist. Whether the interior connection is up to snuff or not the point of degradation could be the speaker or interconnect wires before or after leaving the AMP. To limit the degradation of detail, especially at low volumes, the best cable possible will help. We played the same source which was a song that repeated itself, and from a distance, it was harder to tell than from 3 meters and even closer. The closer you got the clearer the detail was especially in the highs and mids. So much so that it seemed like a cloth was over a speaker with the monster cables. I wouldn't say Night and Day difference, but enough to shell out some clams. It wasn't even close. I would have been happy with the monster cables, but once I heard the Red Dawns it was "case closed".

I've heard people say that about the internal wiring in Krell, but I'm not gonna touch that subject or my Amp either.

To ignore information and honest opinions coming your way, saying its mumbo jumbo or witchcraft sounds more like unscientific. I'm not stupid, and I would much really have preferred to spend $50 on all my wiring and sell all the expensive wiring and buy myself whatever. Even my friends at B&W believe that cables "can" make a difference.

I've put up the link to B&W for their discours on Cable selection http://www.bwspeakers.com/index.cfm...67F00D0B7473B37

[audioqueso]

misterdoggy, no offense, but you're taking it personal now when the topic is just asking whether expensive speaker wire is worth it. You're talking about your life experience and your son being a pianoist or singer or anything musical doesn't make one's ear better than anothers. Let's just stick to the topic and not let this get out of hand.

[Lex]

Ok, stepping in here, this is Club B & W, not club speaker wire. End this discussion please-

Speaker wire is only to be discussed in the normal flow of conversation about speakers, not specific posts on it in the Clubs. While CAT is not actively seeking business at the moment, it does not change the rules of operation.

You can continue the discussion without mention of brands of cables, links to cable whoring sites, etc...

thank you.
Doug

[misterdoggy]

OK Lex, Sorry about that. I will be careful and should have known better. The link to B&W speakers I left up as we are after all a B&W club. I took down the other.

In response to Audioqueso, about taking it personally. I was making the point that I don't have tinnitus and used my son to listen for me and only mentioned his being a pianist as a qualifying Ear. I was questioned on my qualifications and I guess I defended myself with a little life experience which since its not relevant I deleted.

I heard a difference and nothing anyone could say could change what I heard. I would recommend anyone to always experiment. If you don't hear it then you are a happy camper and end of discussion. If you find it helps then I'm glad I shared my experience.

[aphexist]

My ears are fine...

Huh? What did you say? You prefer beers to wine?

I'm sorry if you thought that I was implying you were old or had hearing loss. I honestly was not directing that at you.

[misterdoggy]

Huh? What did you say? You prefer beers to wine?

I'm sorry if you thought that I was implying you were old or had hearing loss. I honestly was not directing that at you.

aphexist No problema !! What did you say ?

You're talking about your life experience and your son being a pianoist or singer or anything musical doesn't make one's ear better than anothers.

Dear Audioqueso. In response to this statement, I must disagree that the ears of a person "working" with music ie: Symphony director, Pianist, violinist or anyone "professionally trained" will notice and hear things that audiofiles and concert goers will not pay attention to. I'm not saying that you don't know music, or pieces you love like the back of your hand, but the level of attention to detail and nuance by a professional musician is "superior" to your average audiofile. To be a professional musician in the first place means that its your particular "talent" to be able to hear more and then be able to play. Great Directors like Bernstein etc have exceptional hearing ability. So in response to your statement, Yes being a professional musician normally makes your hearing better than others.

[chinets]

Misterdoggy, You say go and hear with your ears when buying cable wires for your speakers. I understand that but what the hell are you suggesting for us to go to a store and buy 20 different cables at $500 a cable just to check which is better?? Are you crazy!!! I, like others are amateurs on this forum depend on our dealers to supply us with the correct wire or cables for our systems right!! and we ask for advice from the forum to back what our dealer has suggested that's all ,we are not begging as you suggested, because that sounded degrading my friend. Nobody begs here. we just give our helpful 2 cent advice if one has one. We are all trying to HELP each other not BEG from each other Pal. So you never answered my question: Are Monster XP-500 cables good as my dealer Installed them and stated they were good.? Can I argue with him NO!! Because I have no clue.

When you buy a car you don’t ask question whether your cables are BMW made or etc. made ,you just either like the car or not and may add options etc.. but one will never suggest changing the A/C cables because they are 200 copper coolants instead of brass 200 monster anti freeze cables...You just trust your dealer and the car manufacturer.

For amateurs like me I wish they had a standard cable wire for B & W speakers or any other speakers and then give you the option to upgrade to something in one's own taste as you suggested. If we don't have your exceptional God gifted hearing that you have, how can one make a reasonable decision on what to buy. Even cars suggest using a certain type of fuel that will run your car correctly but if you want to put higher quality Gas or even jet fuel that is your prerogative but at least one knows the minimum one should put in his car ,do you get my drift???? We want help here that would make our systems work efficiently and correctly and sound the best with what we have .We are not looking to hear a little fly sitting on a drum batting its wings. Please!!!

To me wire is wire, but maybe for you it means the world ,so please be kind in what you say as one's knowledge of a thing is a good thing to share with others. For me, one certain detailed thing in my hobby might not be as important to you ,but I would share my experience with everyone and hope they benefit too. We can't borrow tons of cables just to know what is better and what is not. At least my dealer would have a heart attack if I asked him to lend me 20 types of cables to hear which sounds better. I can't compare all this stuff, and I am not interested in wires and cables. I just want my system to sound good no more no less. I don't have time to fiddle with cables and plugs etc.. I just let the experts decide and put what would be the best for my system. Remember I am an amateur not a cable freak!!!!

I want to ask for knowledge so I can be better educated in cables but I have no desire to test several cables just to get my speakers running. I don't have the time to do all that. So we depend on people as educated in these things such as yourself and the dealers to guide us that's all. However, when a person like Martindemon or Aphexist state that wires are wires and would do the same job as more expensive cables and being that he is an electric engineer one would assume he is correct so why would I even contemplate buying thousands of feet of cables to try them out just to see if I could here that fly on the drums...Please let us assume that certain people are right too, especially that he gave us concrete proof with his electronic proof as an Engineer here. I do appreciate all your comments and do take them all seriously as you are probably a professional at Audio and a Audiophile, but I am just here to listen, read and go with what people say as I cannot listen to equipment etc.. when our dealer here does not permit that.

I want to listen to HT and Music now not wait for years without using my speakers just in case I find the right wire or cables that pleases my ears. When I buy a car, I don't put it in the garage and test every wheel in the market just to see which one is better then use my car. I buy the car and people suggest this or that for wheels etc.. or you are bombarded with Ads. that say this is better wheel etc.. and one goes for it, but you don't simply buy the car and then look half of your life for wheels.

I deeply thank you for helping us but we are not begging anything from you ..I'm above that Misterdoggy. Either you volunteer to give info. and we appreciate it, but we are hell not begging from you today or any other day, so please accept this criticism nicely for we really appreciate all your kind intelligent comments and we are thankful for all you Info.

Have a wonderful day!!!!

[srb]

Chinets,

I would love to read your response, but it is just TOO difficult to read a thousand word run-on paragraph.

Please consider using the Enter key to break up your thoughts into logical paragraphs, as it would be SO much easier for all of us to read.

Thanks!

[chinets]

Sorry srb..I got carried away and will not do that again. I was in a frenzy!!!And I wanted to save space!! Thanks for your comments.

Aussie Geoff here:

1) I have edited the post to put in some spaces to make it readable - mainly becuase amongst the mild insults excitement - I feel there are some worhtwhile points...

2) However I REALY need to insist that people stop taking this thread personally or it will be locked. Bottom line, if you can hear the difference in cables and want to pay it, that is fine (I am in that camp for some cables). Equally if you belong to the engineering school and say the difference is too small to be audible - that's fine too - providing you have taken the time to compare cables on good equipment (if you haven't please do so you could be surprised (like me!)). What I wont have though is people insulting each other for their views. We are all entitled to them. Unfortunately cables seem to be a topic that brings this out in people!

Have a great day!