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2 weeks ago I was pretty jazzed. My dealer finally got a pair of 802D's. Went in to listen and thought they sounded pretty good. 2 days later he calls me and asks if I was willing to upgrade my N802's for the diamonds and I said not really. He then proceeded to tell me he would offer a 15% discount and he had a in-state buyer for my N802's($5500). After much deliberation I figured what the hell. Well, after 10 days of running in the 802D's(about 150 hours at fairly high levels) they just don't sound $5k better. Not even close. And I'm writing this post because I had both pairs in my basement for almost a week. The buyer just picked up the N802's Monday evening. So I had the ultimate in A/B testing. The bass is identical between the two. Same for the FST. I can only say the diamonds are a bit silkier, but tend to run to syrupy on many instrumental passages. Now, don't get me wrong, they are great speakers. BUT SO WERE THE N802's!!! No way I would have spent the money knowing what I know now. Any of you with the n802'S that are itching for the diamonds- SAVE YOUR MONEY!!! You are not really missing anything at all. The 5 or 6k is completely insane for such a small difference. Wish I could have my N802's back along with the $5300. It is simply way too much money for the slight difference. And like I said, I still have a world-class speaker, but the problem is I already had a world-class speaker and blew $5300 to the wind. PAY HEED ANY OF YOU N802 OWNERS WITH UPGRADITIS. What I really should have done was purchase a used pair of N800's. This would be my suggestion to all of you.
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That's re-assuring!! I just picked up a pair of demo N802....my other option was 803D. I just couldn't pass up on the chance of owning the marlan head...Last edited by junior77blue; 18 March 2005, 00:14 Friday. -
Juior, yup, you made the right call.
Dan, I wish I had words to ease your pain. It sucks when upgraditis doesn't shine as bright as one would hope. But, you still have some great speakers to enjoy. One that most who read this post will envy.Comment
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So if they were both the same price, what would you chose?
802's or 802D's ?B&W
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Q
Dan,
Look at it this way! Even if the sound isn't that much better, I like the look of the new 802D's much better than the 802N. The 802D's besides sounding great serve another purpose...an asthetic one!!! I paid $1,500 more for a Sony Plasma, not because it has the absolute best PQ out there (even though the PQ is great). A huge factor was because when it's off, it's the best looking plasma out there with the see-through glass and illuminating Sony logo....it looks like a piece of art furniture, simply gorgeous!Comment
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I agree with you on the Sony's.
I sooooo want one.
B&WComment
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DanR,
Thank you for sharing your experience.
I have Matrix 801 and was wondering if I should slowly upgrade to N802's or if I had to buy 802D's.
My preference would be to buy second hands N802's when they got cheaper.
So your experience helps me with my decision.Last edited by JürgenW; 19 March 2005, 02:08 Saturday.Comment
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Race Car Driver- if they were the same price I guess I would choose the 802D's. But unfortunately they are worlds apart. I really feel the differences are very subtle. One isn't better than the other, just a different flavor from 3500KHz up. Funny, I still prefer the look of the Nautilus 802's
JurgenW- Look for a good, quality pair of N802's. The only thing you will have to get used to is less bass response from the 2 8" drivers. The 801's really have some thunderous bass. The Matrix series is still such a good performer. The 802's bass is however tighter and better defined. I do run an ASW 850 with my 802's on very low volume(about 1/3).
JuniorBlue- without a doubt you made the right choice!!!:B It's all about the MUSIC!!!Comment
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DanR...thanks!
Question for you...do the Diamond series use leather or cloth between the marlan head and bass cabinet.
Obviously, I know the Nautilus series use the grill cloth material. But was 'told' the new Diamond series moved to leather. True?Comment
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Being you have had both speakers side by side, no one can deny your experience, but having had N803's which use the same tweeter as the N802's, and owning the Signatures that have a better tweerter than the N line, from what I hear from the D tweeter is not subtle over the N line. But this is my experience.
Junior, the material is not leater but it isn't cloth either; I don't know what you'd all it.Comment
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Originally posted by turbokuo
That plasma probably isnt even made by Sony.Comment
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I'm sorry to hear that DanR. But don't they need to be broken in much longer?
It would be interesting to hear what the improvements will be in the longer run.
It's funny. The dealer I bought my 802s from also said that in 3 years time or so he could have good deals on the 802D and I could easily sell my 802s second hand for about the same I bought them and buy a 802D for a good price. That's dealer talk for yah
I'm a bit surprised your dealer offered a 15% discount. B&W are not known for giving discounts, aside from the standard 10% that you should get from any official dealer.
Well I hope they improve! At least you can say you have diamant speakers :PComment
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IIRC...The manual says ~15 hours of run-in for N series...Comment
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This is well known in the Plasma world. With the recent consolidation of the plasma business, there are only a handfull of companies that make the actual screen because the plasma plants are so expensive. Sony like all most other brands only build their own casing and internal electronics/chips to drive the plasma image.Originally posted by RagsComment
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Im wondering if the amps and or pre/pro would be a factor in the lack of noticed improvement?I'm just sittin here watchin the wheels go round and round...Comment
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Definatley possible....but if you need to have the VERY best equipment to hear an audible difference...are the speakers 'really' better? I think the point DanR is trying to make, is these speakers are OVERPRICED in comparison to the Nautilus speakers. The point of limited return on investment is met...Comment
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Better is better Junior. While I don't discredit your point; using your scenario, if someone isn't hearing an improvement in a "better" speaker due to their gear, well then it isn't worth it, but that doesn't mean the speaker isn't better.Originally posted by junior77blue
While I have already posted my thoughts above, I will state that I took a quick look at this gentleman’s gear, JC1 amps, Proceed preamp and Sony SCD-1 CDP, that seems to be nice gear to me, I am not familiar with the Proceed piece. Now, that doesn't mean there isn't a synergy issue, but as I said above, I will not discredit this persons experience, he had them side-by-side and states some 150 hours on the new speakers.
While I don't discredit his experience, I also am not willing to concede that the differences are near negligible either. I feel some are jumping on this bandwagon simply because they want to be convinced their N line is near as good as the new D line. Just my opinion.Comment
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To date I have never actually owned speakers higher than the N805's, however I have listened to many flavours of B&Ws at Dealers and friends to pass what I deam as fair comment? (kick me if I am out of line please )
I can honestly say that I can hear a noticeable difference with the new D tweeter, it is much more refined with very little, if any harshness and is certainly not unjustifiable in my ideal setup.
Peoples audible range is not all the same and my ears pick up on the treble in audio more than anything, so treble tends to be my bugbear? Diamonds, as clichéd as they may sound are my ideal choice as of todays technology, and if I can afford them one day I will probably never leave my living room hehe.
PS. I agree that the difference in price between the N802 (£6000) and 802D (£8000) is a lot, but in 6 years so is inflation in general. In Audio terms those little differences always cost a bundle anyway...£1000 power cables etc. I am sure I don't need to elaborate!
"...if it's too loud, you're too old!"Comment
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I think you missed my point Omega...
The speakers ARE 'better', but the increase in performance over the N802s is not justified with the excessive increase of the cost. That was the point I'm trying to make...
I have not hear the 802D, but am i'm quite happy with my N802s...at 1/2 the cost!!Comment
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I don't think I missed your point Junior.
Furthermore, you boldly claim that the "increase in performance over the N802s is not justified with the excessive increase of the cost" and then you go on to state that you have never heard the 802D's, so how can you make such a claim?
I am not looking for a flame war here, but quite frankly you have no personal experience to make the claims you are.
I have never said the N802's weren't a good speaker; as for half the cost, that is because they are discontinued, their list was not half.Comment
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Hello fellow B&W fans,
I really didn't mean to start any discrediting of anybody's opinion. My main point was that the difference between the two series was in the upper treble region. The sound someone hears and perceives as "better" or "worse" is purely subjective and the only truth that matters to that person. I know many folks who love tube gear because of the warm highs. I do not like this misty, unrefined sound. But that is merely my opinion as there can be no "fact" in what someone hears. My main point was probably that after having heard both I would have rather bought the N800 or N800 Sigs for the price as I do not find the sound of the diamond tweeter worth an extra 5 or 6 thousand dollars. That is a lot of money for a "smoother" high. Recall when the Nautilus series came out that the new tapered Nautilus tweeter was hailed as an extremely smooth and realistic high. Has this changed? No, B&W has simply tried a new material to more faithfully pursue these objectives. But the point of diminishing returns is a reality all of us that are not rich must face. I do have what I consider to be a HiFi set-up. It has cost me slightly in excess of $30k. So I don't don't feel my gear isn't utilizing the 802D's potential. I simply feel it is too expensive a jump for a sound that differs only above 3500KHz or so. In my truly humble opinion, the best highs I have ever heard have come from well made silk dome tweeters. All materials have trade-offs, diamonds as well. The reason the industry as a whole hasn't adopted them is because the severe price increase has never been justified in decibals. Anyway, I just wanted to post my thoughts as I had the opportunity to hear both side by side for almost a week. Most people upgrading are coming from models lower than the 802 and will be awestruck by the difference. I always felt and still do feel that the N800 and N802 are two of the best speakers ever built and will be for some time. It didn't leave much room in my mind for improvement, so spending that sum of money made me feel like a jackass because I kind of figured that when B&W introduced the new line.:B It's all about the MUSIC!!!Comment
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So from my understanding they are no longer making the N802s, just the 802D's?
My opinion is with the big price differnce between the two, they should offer both, if there was only a $1000 diff, I could see killing the N802s, but with the huge differnce in price, I think the expensive N802s just became too expensive.Last edited by Race Car Driver; 19 March 2005, 01:09 Saturday.B&WComment
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Race car driver
Yes, the Nautilus series is gone. I see your point on continuing both series. But it would be tough to B&W to recover R&D expenses and maintain both lines.
If dealers had both the N802 and 802D on the floor, IMO few would spring for the 802D. For most of us mortals $4,000 USD is a lot of cash. You can bet the boys at B&W did a lot of a/b testing. IMO they felt the 802D was going to be their cash cow. Afterall, anyone who would spend 8k on a pair of speakers would surely pay 12k for the next generation of the same thing...right...right?? They could have had a 50% increase in all of the new 800 series but didn't. It would have been interesting to be a fly on the wall in the meeting room where pricing stratigies where discussed.
Regardless of all that, the 802 is a real cherry in sound and styling.Comment
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I'm not sure which B&W nautilus speakers I heard (I think they were around $15k) having a giant Orb on top with a thick baseplate, but personally I didn't think they justified that much money. I'm definetly not an audiophile and don't mean to bash any of B&W's offerings, but I think at that price you have cruised deep into the "coffin corner" of diminishing returns. I'd be interested in whether any of you guys have done any blind tests between these two models you're talking about. While I have not the budget to spend the type of greenbacks (or pounds) you guys plan to/have, I'm curious as to these minute differences you're willing to pay thousands for. I can pick up differences such as harshness/softness of the tweeters, tightness/warmth of the drivers, soundstage/imaging/depth, and overall clarity, but personally I thought the B&Ws I heard with a Conrad tube amp were overly warm, and really lacked in many of these areas except imaging. I'm wondering if it was merely the tube amp causing this, as so many people seem to love these speakers.
Just curious...~NickComment
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Ok....$4k less...exsuse me. But your STILL missing my point...lol
I'll try again...
All I was claiming was based on DanR's opinion from his orignal post...in which he finds the 802Ds better than the N802s, however not that much better and definately not worth the extra money he spent, hence the title of this post.
Your right, I have not heard he 802D nor will I anytime soon. I'm not talking about personal experience.
But, I've heard the 803D in comparison to the N803...and yes they are BETTER....so, I would assume the 802D are 'better' than the 802N. I think that's a fair assumption. But to ME not for $3 or 4K more. As with most high end audio the more you spend, the less "bang-for-your-buck" you get for your dollar....but this is all relative. Someone might feel that $3k is worth the last 10% for audio nirvana...Comment
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Thanks DanR,Originally posted by DanR
I have heard the N 802 quit a while ago and was impressed very much. But after that I bought the M801 and there really are musical. The bass definiton indeed is a 'weak' point and I could imagine a still beter definition of the high's. But as the M801 are so good performers I have no urge to replace them. - and probably I should do a side by side test first.Comment
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I know there has been a 50% increase in cost between the N802's to 802D's (from $8,000 to $12,000) but a lot of this increase is a result of the very weak dollar. You must note that when B&W set prices for the old range the dollar was much much stronger. B&W is a British company and profits in £'s are what is relevant to it. The price in the UK has gone up 33% after taxes which is still a big hike but slightly more palatable than 50% rise in the US.
Other models have gone up like this -
801D - UK 23% - US 45%
804S - UK 8% - US 14%
805S - UK 14% - US 25%
ASW825 - UK 0% - US 14% (prices compared to the ASW800 model)
I still think you guys across the pond are getting off lightly as B&W is not passing on the full impact of the dollars decline over the last 5-6 years (I recall the exchange rate being 1.40 5 years ago but now its 1.92). Other manfacturers like Meridian with its new G series seem to be passing on the full difference. When your currency weakens imports get more expensive - unfortunately its a fact of life.Last edited by Rags; 19 March 2005, 03:46 Saturday.Comment
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Unfortunately, they will lose sales if they keep increasing prices....so, we may be getting off 'light', but the folks and B&W are sensitive to the fact and know how much this market is willing to purchase. Weak dollar or no weak dollar...Comment
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It might depend on the type of music that is used for the comparison...on top of the personal preferrence of sounds..
Does anyone know what the case was with the JMlabs utopias when they added the beryllium tweeters on them?
I'm getting more convinced that there is no such term as 'absolute superiority' in the world of hifi.... (i liked my 703s better than 20K Watt/puppy)
and as far as the $ being so weak, blame W... this is one of his strategies to reduce the deficit.. :roll:Comment
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Yes they must be sensitive to that fact but I assume they arent willing to take losses as a result - thats why the price rises in the US are more than the UK but still not as much as they could have been. I assume B&W considered market forces / consumer sensitivities before they set the US prices - if people think the rises are too much then they can easily take their money elsewhere. Lots of good brands about.Originally posted by junior77blue
I like the dollar to be weak - it makes American brands such as Parasound great value for money for me !!Comment
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Here's some food for thought. B&W is obviously trying to recoup $$ for the major upgrading of their main plant, R&D center and cabinet making facility. They realize people will pay for the "hype" of a new line, whether or not the results justify it. Notice how they don't offer an "S" version any higher than the 803's. Why??? Not because they care about the consumer. People with the means to go higher than the 803's MUST pay the premium for the diamond technology, which is in reality all the $$ spent on R&D for the new line. I think a lot of people forget that B&W is no longer a Mom&Pop outfit. They are now a big business(just bought Classe) and are in it to make a profit. Yes, they strive for the ultimate in sound, but so does Nextel strive to be the best cellular provider- and that they will inflate products to sell them(common knowledgeut . Obviously they will not continue the Nautilus series, but the fact that they have blatantly cut of the "S" option for the 802 up is a testament to the fact that money is a major goal. Take for example the use of Rohacell. This is not the first time B&W has used this material. Yet it seams by implication that it is a new groundbreaking material that will shatter your expectations. Well, let me tell you, the bass was identical to the N802's. And yes, I A/B'd with my sub off. Literally no difference. They were both great. I still feel Kevlar reinforcement is superior. Why do we think they use it in bulletproof vests??? Ultimate rigidity under stress! And the only major upgrade to the FST was a different magnet material and basket- hardly earth shattering! Anyway, my point was that the new line was most likely produced because everything in the business world must move forward. And already great products must begin to use very esoteric upgrades and a lot of hype to convince the "Must Have It's" that it is worth it. Just like new car lines. I like B&W a lot, but it is clear they have moved to the big business model, and that means less emphasis on the consumers true needs and more emphasis on profit and recouping investment expenses. And if anybody thinks this isn't true then read some books on how the business world works.:B It's all about the MUSIC!!!Comment
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I think we're on the same page DanR...Comment
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So let me pose a question.
I just picked up a pair of DM3000's for a great price and am extremely impressed. I now want to try the 800 to 802 line. I will consider the N802's at $5500 to $6K or maybe Matrix 802's or 801's for way less. Is it worth three times teh price or more for the N series?
Before everyone asks, I have a 550 wpc at 8 ohms amo that is up to the task.
Thanks,
ChrisComment
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DanOriginally posted by DanR
I hear you. I have experienced pretty much same disappointment with my recent upgrade with my gear. after a huge increase in performance I experienced with upgrading my Rotel 1095 into Classe CAM 400 monoblocks, I was convinced that getting their new top delta pre amplifier (cp700) will give my system even a bigger boost. so I went and bought the cp700 (7000$) and was expecting a huge difference over my rotel 1068 (1700$). yeah, it's better, but in my opinion, does NOT justify the 5000$ difference. the CP 700 is a state of the art piece, and sounds great, it's sweet and detailed, but in my opinion, the sonic difference in my room and my setup just does not worth 5000$.
I was initially considering getting Classe top delta cd player - over my Rotel 1060, i've learned my lesson now, unless I am absolutely convinced it is MUCH better , I will not make the move.
I think the best way to go now is not to look back, you bought what you bought, it is a great speaker after all, enjoy it . money comes and goes, we leave and learn :W
Cheers
Eliav:T SocratComment
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Eliav, does your dealer not let you take the items home for Demo's? I have a dealer up here that would let me tak home anything I want for the weekend to try out. This has saved me some real headaches and buyer remorse.Robert P. 8)
AKA "Soundgravy"
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NoOriginally posted by Soundgravy
The closest Classe dealer is 5 hours drive in each direction. besides, I was so intoxicated with the monoblocks sound, i took it forgranted that the pre amp will even make it better, so I just went ahead and ordered it. no regrets, however, lesson learned
ops: .
Eliav:T SocratComment
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Before continuing the chat with Dan, take note that this thread is more than a year old and Dan has not been here since may 2005.
KobusComment
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There are literally dozens of speaker manufacturers and I listened to at least 10 different speakers ranging in price from $2K to over $20K per pair before I bought the 802Ds. I recall listening to the N802 in 2001 and not thinking they were worth the money -- I bought Paradigm Studio 100s instead. When I was considering upgrading, it took me a long time to find a speaker that I thought justified the expense, i.e. something that was way better than the 100s, which are a very good speaker.
It is curious to read people complaining that the 802D isn't worth the money or that B&W is charging an unfair price. B&W is a small company and has little if any market power. I would not have spent the money for the 802D if it did not deliver IMO sonically at a fair cost compared to its competitors that I listened to which included Wilson Audio, JMLab, Paradigm, Totem, Aerial, Dali, Vandersteen, PSB, McIntosh, Krell, Energy, NHT, Boston, DefTech, M&K, Monitor Audio, Linn and other B&Ws -- 803D, 803S. Although I did not hear a bad speaker in the bunch (well, the Energys and DefTechs were pretty annoying) I kept coming back to the 802D. If B&W sells a few more 'high-end' speakers than the aforementioned and others, it is because they produce a good product at a fair price. Are there better speakers? Sure. For example the Wilson X-2s but at $135K for something that reminds me of the bug in MIB, no thanks. There are also far worse speakers that sell in far higher volumes and really are overpriced. I'm very happy with the 802Ds -- no buyer's remorse at all.Comment
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Well Guys just my 2 cents.
First, "better" "more expensive" equipment at the top of the food chain only renders either slight improvements or actually not improvements but what many perceive as differences in timbre.
Yes the Diamond tweeter offers better highs, and yes the look has changed, but its not only that its worth more, its that there are 2 driving forces. The N802 is worth less. The cost of living has risen and inflation drives the price of the new ones up.
Even with Hertz Rent a car you PAY BY THE MILE and used older speakers are just that. In several years they will become the 3rd generation away when the 802D get replaced and their value (market value not value to your ears) will tumble. Speakers get used and speaker cones will eventually fatigue.
Its like your car, after a certain amount of miles it still gets you from a to b but its worth less and less and it is getting more and more used. You won't be able to ride it forever, nor listen to a speaker for ever. Believe me I loved my Infinity RSIII's and listened to them until the Cones all tore (after years)
So the 5000 is spent but the "new" value in equity is greater as the speakers could be sold for more.
Its too bad DanR didn't give a listen in an a/b environment before taking the plunge. Now its done and in the past and there is nothing to do except to move on.
If you read the reviews and believe them, everybody compares the new 802D's EQUAL to the sound of the N800's.Comment
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Originally posted by misterdoggy
Then by this the 800D's must be heaven. :yesnod:Robert P. 8)
AKA "Soundgravy"Comment
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Hey Soundgravy
How does one become a moderator !! Congratulations
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my dealer brought out the 803D to my house, i listened to them for a few weeks, then he brought out the 802d, ( i had 803n), i took them, incredible difference in my system, and i only paid $9000.
i think the 802D is it, i can't imagine not being blown away with them, i would look into your system components for issues, i am using a Krell 5 channel home theater standard bi-amping, so even though lot's of power, i'm sure a set of monoblocks would be justified
i thought i was cured, upgraditis hits again
:-)
KurtComment
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I think Doug (Lex) requires the signing over of your first-born - isn't that right Robert? As an alternative, large amounts of cash can be offered in trade. :rofl:Originally posted by misterdoggyHey Soundgravy
How does one become a moderator !! CongratulationsDanishComment
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