B&W bashing, what's that about?

**RobP** · 19 January 2005, 02:07 Wednesday

I have heard that a few times but to hell with them, I think for the money you cant buy a better speaker, There are better speakers out there. But for the money, B&W is my choice. B&W also has a different "personality" about the way that they sound than alot of others, IMO they have a faster sound (which I prefer over a bloated sound) which alot of folks say they are not "warm" sounding and sound too bright. The reason that the audio store rolls their eyes and make a fuss when you mention B&W is probably because they do not sell them and wish they could because B&W is really starting to become a more popular mainstream speaker and they are going to lose out on sales.

**JürgenW** · 19 January 2005, 03:27 Wednesday

The same phenomenon shows in the Netherlands and in Germany. To give an example. I sent an e-mail about B&W speakers by mistake to a person I have only business-contact with. Not only did he react by saying that my e-mail went wrong, he added something like: you poor guy, you have B&W speakers, have you heard of -brand x-?

(My speakers which I mentioned in the e-mail are the B&W Matrix 801.)

**Stevebez** · 19 January 2005, 05:28 Wednesday

Don't let these guys bother you - trust your own ears .... if you are happy with them so what !!!

Rgds Steve

**jlee** · 19 January 2005, 06:58 Wednesday

This B&W bashing is something I cannot understand... Abbey Road Studios uses B&W 801's... they mix the soundtracks for many Oscar winning movies like Gladiator... George Lucas, famous for the sound in his Star Wars movies, uses 802's... I would fathom both those studios chose B&W for it's accurate sound, not some other marketing promotional reason... but somebody correct me if I'm wrong...

As for the warm sounding... quick and tight is how bass is generally supposed to sound... bloated and warm is maybe how some people PREFER to hear bass, but that doesn't mean it naturally sounds like that... B&W speakers strive to neither add or subtract from the signal... and if some people don't like that, that doesn't mean the speakers aren't doing what they are supposed to be doing, which is recreating the moment!

With regards to the brightness, I honestly have not heard any B&W speaker sound too bright when connected to good equipment... if the sound is too bright, it's because of something upstream... at least with the CDM, 700, and 800 series which I've demoed extensively... I can't speak for the CM series and below...

One last comment... CM4 is nice, but for the money, I preferred the CDM7NT or CDM9NT... I think the CDM7NT were $2000 and 9's were $2600 and the CM4's were $2300 were they not? However, with the 700 series costing more than the old NT series, the CM series now has a niche. Before, I didn't think it made sense to get the CM series when the NT series was only marginally more expensive and actually a better value... one could even argue the NT series was cheaper in the long run due to better percentage resale value than the CM series (at least in North America).

**sikoniko** · 19 January 2005, 07:32 Wednesday

One of my local b&w dealers is among the bashers. He says b&w is good at best. For HT he prefers Definitive Technology. He just started carrying the legacy brand and is touting them. I heard them and didn't feel that they had the fullness that the B&W mid offers. Maybe that is why? Some people like that mid and other don't?

**soundhound** · 19 January 2005, 07:50 Wednesday

I don't own them, but the high end store where I purchase my Rotel gear carries them. That in itself speaks volumes to me, when I can go into a place and drop $60K on a 2 channel system, and alot of what I see is B&W speaks, I am a believer. Just a comment from the outside looking in. Maybe the nay-sayers are envious?

**Kyle** · 19 January 2005, 11:45 Wednesday

I too have experienced this. I didn't do too much auditioning when I was speaker shopping (I tried out PSB, Paradigm, Energy, etc), and ended up choosing B&W after hearing them and upon the advice of several friends.

Few months ago I was stopping in a local "high end" audio dealer here in the city to see if they carried b&w, and when I asked a sales person, they guffawed at me, so I walked out.

I think its pretty assinine that people can cop so much attitude about audio gear when its such a subjective thing. Like most people have $20k to drop on speakers :/

**Fife** · 19 January 2005, 14:10 Wednesday

Half of the time, bashers dont have decent front ends/amplification to do B&W 700/NT/800/Matrix series justice.

**Rags** · 19 January 2005, 17:38 Wednesday

Its all about personal preference - after all we dont have the same tastes.

For example whilst I love the Nautilus series I didnt like the 700 series I heard and I personally think the 600 series 3 should have been a lot better than it is. In a same room, same day, same partnering equipment demo of the 600 series and the Kef Q series the Kef won hands down for me. The Kefs were so much smoother in the treble.

Now is that B&W bashing ? Just my personal preference me thinks.

Without doubt B&W make good products but they also have a great marketing department. Overall a well run business. The snobby audiophile types dont like that and prefer to own slightly obscure and less popular brands.

**Fraise** · 19 January 2005, 19:38 Wednesday

well i think part of the bashing can stem from hearing certain models which for the price dont immediately come accross as impressive as one would expect. for example, personally, i would never buy the signiature 800's. you'll probably say it was the front end but i've heard them with both a halcro DM8 and classe pre-amp, halcro DM58's (or 68's cant remember), classe omega's and VTL monoblock tubes. the source was a Dcs cd player and a classe CDP100. they sounded alright but after a few minutes the sound became boring. if i listened to them once, i could understand but on 3 separate occasions with totally different setups, i can only say they didnt suit my tastes. i've heard the same setup with a pair of wilson sophia's and also dynaudio confidence C4's and the difference was night and day over the B&W's.

i dont mean to say they're bad speakers but i think someone could go audition a similar setup and have similar results giving them a dislike for B&W. i mean, the sophias are half the price, sound better (to them at least), and are more attractive for the wife. that alone could be the source of some of snobby attitudes and the whole "more money than brains" notion comes up. face it, B&W are known to be an expensive brand.

personally i like B&W's speakers at leats up to the nautilus 803. thats where i stopped before moving to the world of panels. iv'e also owned CM6's and CDM 9NT's.

FYI, skywalker studios also uses wilson speakers.
[/url]http://www.wilsonaudio.com/applications/professional/index.html[url]

**jlee** · 19 January 2005, 21:24 Wednesday

With regards to B&W having a reputation for being an expensive brand... In the price range of the 600 and CM series, I think there are better alternatives from other companies. However I've found that the Nautilus series at the old pricing was hard to beat in each price bracket... and same with the CDM series (In my humble opinion of course)... with the NEW pricing, I think anything above the 803S is way overpriced... I also think the whole new Classe line is way overpriced... does anybody have an inside scoop on why B&W is going in this direction? I'm frankly a bit disappointed... I was really excited about the new Classe line until I find out the pricing... I've resorted to getting used Classe gear for amplification and couldn't be happier.

The most recent pics I've seen of the Skywalker Sound studio had 802's in the front... perhaps Skywalker also uses the Wilsons in another room... or maybe the Wilsons were their speaker of choice before switching to the 802? Can somebody clarify.

Cheers.

**BlazeMaster** · 20 January 2005, 01:31 Thursday

who cares? I like my B&Ws, what can I say?

**Big Chief Notea** · 20 January 2005, 05:12 Thursday

The snobby audiophile types dont like that and prefer to own slightly obscure and less popular brands.[/QUOTE]

From the mouth of babes!!!

**Rags** · 20 January 2005, 09:51 Thursday

Big Chief Notea - I am not sure what the issue is here but you seem to chase me around all over this forum quoting my posts. If your comments were adding value I am sure I would appreciate them a lot more than I currently do. At present most of the time you just come out with one line quips that are pretty much pointless.

On the one occasion where you tried to add value by referring to my post on Meridian processors (in the club Parasound forum) you asked forum members to be wary as Le Meridian was in financial difficulty. Fortunately for us AV enthusiasts Le Meridian is a hotel chain that is unrelated to Meridian the AV company - another way off the mark comment from yourself but at least this time it made me laugh.

**sikoniko** · 20 January 2005, 10:11 Thursday

those wilsons are ugly...nuff said.

I was just reading a budhist magazine article this morning that was referring to competition and it was quit enlightening. It related it to how to deal with an arguement. Since I can't directly quote it I'll paraphrase it, but don't get upset for me not citing it. It said the best way to diffuse an arguement is to not seem interested in it. The energy involved will deteriorate. It then said to focus on that feeling of competitveness by focusing it inwards and analyzing the factors that are making ones-self feel that way.

I think it just comes down to the value on places on the item. There is nothing wrong with having an opinion, but it sucks that people feel that they have to oppose their opinions on others.

**gostan** · 20 January 2005, 10:30 Thursday

I have visited another local Rotel dealer who does carry Paradigm speakers, but does not sell B&W's. He has been upset since my regular dealer (in an abutting town) took on Rotel several years ago and he just rags over the price and sound of the B&W's in comparison to the Paradigm's. I listened to the Pardigms's many a time and I almost considered making a switch. But, the B&W sound has been a warmth and luster to my ears for almost 18 years now and I could not make the switch. I also have never purchased a Rotel from this B&W knocking dealer as a simple matter of principle.

Don't criticize what you don't sell or own, for any reason. Promote the great features of what you do sell or own, and let the listener make his/her own choice.

Stan

**BostonDan** · 20 January 2005, 10:44 Thursday

Dealer margins on B&W

Does anyone in this forum work in high-end audio retail? Or have some insight on this? One 'critic' of B&W that I've run into suggested that B&W constrains supply and authorizes few dealers, ie does not overdistribute, which means that dealers who do sell B&W make more profit on those speakers than on other brands, and that's why they push B&W. (Which is what happened in my case -- I went in asking for KEF, since I already owned some old KEF bookshelf speakers, but got "upsold" to B&Ws.

Any retail guys out there? Do you really make more on B&Ws than on other brands? And if so, how much?

**Big Chief Notea** · 20 January 2005, 10:47 Thursday

Originally posted by Rags

Big Chief Notea - I am not sure what the issue is here but you seem to chase me around all over this forum quoting my posts. If your comments were adding value I am sure I would appreciate them a lot more than I currently do. At present most of the time you just come out with one line quips that are pretty much pointless.

On the one occasion where you tried to add value by referring to my post on Meridian processors (in the club Parasound forum) you asked forum members to be wary as Le Meridian was in financial difficulty. Fortunately for us AV enthusiasts Le Meridian is a hotel chain that is unrelated to Meridian the AV company - another way off the mark comment from yourself but at least this time it made me laugh.

Alright
get the teas in and we will call it quits

**Shane Martin** · 20 January 2005, 11:50 Thursday

Half of the time, bashers dont have decent front ends/amplification to do B&W 700/NT/800/Matrix series justice.

FWIW I do not own B&W's but I've heard them on several occasions. My overal impression was that they were overly forward sounding. Not bright or fatiguing at all. I know of a few others that felt the same way and moved on to other brands.

That doesn't mean B&W is a bad brand at all just it doesn't work for some of us. You could easily treat this like ice cream where some folks don't like vanilla, some like chocholate etc. If you like them, what difference does it make?

**mrkiko** · 20 January 2005, 18:32 Thursday

It's all about what you are looking for. And B&W puts togeather many tings, it's not only about the sound.

I like Totem too: the Staff is cheeper than the N804, but sounds worst, the Hawk is more expensive, and sounds better. This means that pricewise the N804 is perfectly in the middle. But i would never go for a Totem because they are ugly.

You may ask a B&W basher: is that brand XYZ more beautiful? No? Than it sucks.

Another thing is that not everybody has the time and the will to experiment. But many may have the wish to listen to good music with a decent quality. I would be happy to go in a "superstore", take out my 20k bucks and find the "perfect hi-fi system", go home plug it in, and be in the audio nirvana. But this is not possible, because the "World" is usually not producing high quality stuff, because the world is working for the people and people are unfortunately poor in the world. So superstores won't ever have something ready-made for hi-fi lovers. And here comes again B&W: the easy and fast way to go to the point. Buy a kit of 5 or more Nautilus, add them one or two Rotels and your'e done. Take them home and enjoy the music. Who cares about ugly XYZ... You might not have 100%, you will have only 99.9%. One will never find the missing 0.1 percent.

**Fraise** · 20 January 2005, 19:02 Thursday

Originally posted by jlee

With regards to B&W having a reputation for being an expensive brand... In the price range of the 600 and CM series, I think there are better alternatives from other companies. However I've found that the Nautilus series at the old pricing was hard to beat in each price bracket... and same with the CDM series (In my humble opinion of course)... with the NEW pricing, I think anything above the 803S is way overpriced... I also think the whole new Classe line is way overpriced... does anybody have an inside scoop on why B&W is going in this direction? I'm frankly a bit disappointed... I was really excited about the new Classe line until I find out the pricing... I've resorted to getting used Classe gear for amplification and couldn't be happier.

The most recent pics I've seen of the Skywalker Sound studio had 802's in the front... perhaps Skywalker also uses the Wilsons in another room... or maybe the Wilsons were their speaker of choice before switching to the 802? Can somebody clarify.

Cheers.

i think the old CDM line and the 700's are hard to beat in their price range however i dont agree with you on the nautilus line. i used to own nautilus 803's but then traded them for martin logan ascents and i couldnt be happier. i would take the ML prodigies or the wilson sophia's over the 802's and 801's, all of which are in the same price bracket roughly.

as for the newer classe stuff, i was told by my dealer that they have obtained several engineers from mark levinson and are basically trying to put themselves in the same league as the levinsons and the krells. the CDP-1 and SSP-60 were old models designed under the new plan. they are both amazing piece in my opinion.

**jlee** · 20 January 2005, 19:12 Thursday

I haven't heard the ML Ascents or Prodigies so I'll take your word for it

. Does ML make a matching center speaker and how does it compare with the HTM1?

With regards to Classe... I know some Mark Levinson engineers came over and their idea was to price their stuff at roughly 50% of the old Levinson line... but the question is... is the higher pricing justified by a proportionate amount of actual increased quality/performance or just so they can get into a different market segment where price is not an issue and their profit margins can be increased? My perspective is that the quality has increased, but the pricing has gone through the roof...such that they can afford to sell less units and still make the same profit. Apparently, this profit is being used to pay the new Levinson engineers as my local classe dealer has said their dealer discounts off list are even slimmer now.

**Fraise** · 20 January 2005, 22:21 Thursday

Originally posted by jlee

I haven't heard the ML Ascents or Prodigies so I'll take your word for it

. Does ML make a matching center speaker and how does it compare with the HTM1?

currently they do have 2 matching center speakers with a brand new one on the way. i'm really not a fan of them because of the fact that although they still have panels, they have tweeters too so its just adding an extra crossover point. the downfall to these is that the smaller one which is a nightmare to place properly, starts at the same price as the older HTM1 and the larger center is double the price. they're also very large. i havent had a center channel in my system since i sold my CDM 9s. when i moved to the nautilus 803s i got more into 2 channel so not i'm deciding which route to go.

With regards to Classe... I know some Mark Levinson engineers came over and their idea was to price their stuff at roughly 50% of the old Levinson line... but the question is... is the higher pricing justified by a proportionate amount of actual increased quality/performance or just so they can get into a different market segment where price is not an issue and their profit margins can be increased? My perspective is that the quality has increased, but the pricing has gone through the roof...such that they can afford to sell less units and still make the same profit. Apparently, this profit is being used to pay the new Levinson engineers as my local classe dealer has said their dealer discounts off list are even slimmer now.

what i was told is that the price increase was going to be roughly 25% which doesnt seem too bad but when you add it up for a complete system actually is. an interesting topic is the differences between the older SSP-60 and the SSP-600. the only differences i can see between the 2 models is that SSP-600 obviously has the touchscreen LCD but it also has the video transcoding.

when i bought my SSP-60 the list price was 7900cdn (i think) and out of curiousity i asked about the SSP-600, $11,000. seems like a lot of extra money for a screen and the video features.

i'm still undecided on the new classe stuff. i like the looks, performance is great, price seems reasonable for what you get but at the same time, looking at the older stuff, i love the looks, performace is just as great as far as i can tell on any system i've auditioned and the prices are just that much better. for the recored, i got a the SSP-60 (new) and CAV-180 (in store demo)for $10,000.

**amirsafdari** · 24 January 2005, 23:49 Monday

BostonDan, what you are describing exists in almost every type of retail.

Cars, Rugs, Houses, Speakers, TV's, Cell Phones, Tires. The more high end you go, the more the whole atitude shows itself.

**DanR** · 07 February 2005, 08:42 Monday

Pricing of a lot of audio products can be absurd. I agree that the Nautilus series was a bargain. The new line seems to border on gouging. B&W is doing their best to recoup costs on their new plants and R&D. Not a bad thing- just when the point of diminishing returns approaches, sound quality only gets a little bit better but the price moves dramatically. Speakers also have the time component in its manufacturing process that say an amplifier doesn't have. It takes a while to make a good speaker by hand.

**Mark_C.** · 07 February 2005, 09:43 Monday

This whole new Nautilus line is a sorry excuse to bump up prices. My prediction: the "S'' Nautilus series will disappear soon and we'll be left with the diamonds. I'm a guy who struggled just to be able to afford the original 804s. B&W's philosophy with the Nautilus and Classe lines is questionable. At a time when people are fortunate to have jobs that provide health insurance, B&W has decided on a pricing structure of "the sky's the limit.'' In addition, they've muddied up the Nautilus line (Signature, S, D etc.) so that even their dealers are confused.

**brendon** · 07 February 2005, 09:44 Monday

I have recently purchased B&W speakers for the second time and I must admit a factor in the decision was that there was a large number of positive reviews available for the 602s3 and that I had a positive experience with my last pair.I live in Western Australia where the number of Hi-Fi stores can be counted on your fingers .No where stocked any more than one equivilant speaker and I could not put any side by side with same amp to do actual listening tests.I listened to equivalant Mirage,Focal -JMlab ,Energy and Jamo stand mount speakers but many other brands such as Paradigm just are not stocked in a lot of cases.Whilst nobody scoffed at B&W at least one sales person had not heard of them!
As pointed out in replies above its a very personal choice but I suspect that some retailers find it hard to get past the sheer volume of B&W reviews and sales volume to get the speakers they stock noticed and like myself confronted with a large choice a lot of consumers are going to research the web and go with a safe choice(which is not to say B&W cheaper speakers are not at least good.) which must frustrate these dealers who belive in whatever brand they stock(you would hope!).
I was quite interested to see the slagging of other brands by dealers mentioned,most of the dealers I have delt with in Perth recently were a bit more professional than that and mostly stuck to putting the best light on their own products.One even steared me away from a product he stocked as he felt it was unreliable even though he knew I was not going to purchase a brand he stocked.
Brendon

**DanR** · 07 February 2005, 21:13 Monday

I agree Mark C. When is "good enough"- good enough without the ridiculous prices and consumer mania. I hear people talking about the new line as if it was the second coming of Christ and the sound is really not impressive enough to justify the prices.

**sugarmedia** · 08 February 2005, 11:37 Tuesday

Originally posted by Mark_C.

This whole new Nautilus line is a sorry excuse to bump up prices. My prediction: the "S'' Nautilus series will disappear soon and we'll be left with the diamonds. I'm a guy who struggled just to be able to afford the original 804s. B&W's philosophy with the Nautilus and Classe lines is questionable. At a time when people are fortunate to have jobs that provide health insurance, B&W has decided on a pricing structure of "the sky's the limit.'' In addition, they've muddied up the Nautilus line (Signature, S, D etc.) so that even their dealers are confused.

Well said...I agree that it is often confusing what is what. Is it a D, or an S, etc. I also concerned that buy purchasing B&W's (for a second time) that since my next purchase will be a lifetime speaker that B&W is always making huge claims of improvement. Where's the Martin logans I'm considering have been pretty much the same for the last 10 years given a few added advantages. I dunno it's a very tough decision for me to make.

**Lex** · 08 February 2005, 12:13 Tuesday

speakers are in a way like fashion. Not everyone likes the same taste in clothes, shoes, ties, etc... What one likes the next person may not like at all, so yeah, some won't like B & W, but evidenced by this forum, some will LOVE them.

Myself, I've only casually ever heard 1 pair, and they sounded pretty darn good what I heard. They were larger speakers, maybe 800 series? I don't know my model nums. Am I ready to give up my Sonus faber Extremas? Not yet. But then I have that passion for Sf speakers that you guys do for B & W. That's not a bad thing, it's just different.

Lex

**NMyTree** · 08 February 2005, 13:01 Tuesday

Ahhhhh.......who cares what other people think!

If you like something and it's what you want, screw what everyone else says.

I'm not a B & W owner, but have auditioned quite a few of their speakers. But I feel this subject/or issue applies to us all, in many aspects.

I certainly respect other people's knowledge and opinions, and I appreciate when others take time from their busy schedule and day to share their experiences and opinions on a particular piece of gear, there's a lot that can be learned; but when someone comes across with a snobby attitude or a condescending, belittling attitude I take it with a grain of salt. Consider the source.

One of the most funniest experiences I had in audtioning, was getting a snobby attitude from a dealer (of a specific speaker line) and he trashed another speaker line I was interested in. Then I went to the Dealer of the other speaker line and he got snobby and trashed the previous guy's speaker line. I walked out of both places laughing my butt off. What a joke.

I'm certainly no engineer or expert, but it's all so subjective with different room acoustic, source components, Pre Amps and Power amps; yielding completely different results.

Do the best you can.....and....

.........just enjoy the music and enjoy your gear.

**caleb** · 09 February 2005, 00:36 Wednesday

If you like something and it's what you want, screw what everyone else says.

I'm not a B & W owner, but have auditioned quite a few of their speakers. But I feel this subject/or issue applies to us all, in many aspects.

I certainly respect other people's knowledge and opinions, and I appreciate when others take time from their busy schedule and day to share their experiences and opinions on a particular piece of gear, there's a lot that can be learned; but when someone comes across with a snobby attitude or a condescending, belittling attitude I take it with a grain of salt. Consider the source.

One of the most funniest experiences I had in audtioning, was getting a snobby attitude from a dealer (of a specific speaker line) and he trashed another speaker line I was interested in. Then I went to the Dealer of the other speaker line and he got snobby and trashed the previous guy's speaker line. I walked out of both places laughing my butt off. What a joke.

I'm certainly no engineer or expert, but it's all so subjective with different room acoustic, source components, Pre Amps and Power amps; yielding completely different results.

Do the best you can.....and....

.........just enjoy the music and enjoy your gear.

What a sensible guy you are and you talk such truth.

The people who sell audio magazines do it to reassure you that you bought the right gear!!!!!!!

What the hell does it matter what anybody else thinks of B&W - it's you who has to listen / look at it so if you feel embarrassed - change it for sommething else.

I can guarantee that when another revue trashes your new setup - you'll change it for something else anyway.

Caleb

B&W bashing, what's that about?

B&W bashing, what's that about?

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