New B&W Nautilus Range

[JPL]

Thanks for the white paper Hillen! I'm downloading it now. I have already ordered 803Ds. I currently have Sig805s. These replaced N800s which were just too big. The S805s sound like speakers. The N800s disappeared with eyes closed. I'm hoping 803Ds get me closer to the N800s without overwhelming the room decor (no WAF with those R2D2s, although the sounds was amazing). (I have all Krell "Class A" electronics.)

[eric_audio]

Eric - definately agree with you there - the best system I have ever heard featured Chord amps - truly astounding amps but very expensive indeed. Their 5 channel power amp the SPM 3005 costs a cool $20,000+ in the UK and the AV processor another $20,000 !

I know from my own experience. I have a Chord SPM 1200B power amplifier driving my Nautilus 803.

[Aussie Geoff]

Bram,

Thanks for the White Paper. It is a truly fascinating read. Key points I got from it were:

• B&W have substantially improved everything about the new 800 series, drivers, crossovers, cables, cabinets.
• B&W have a seriously large research budget and do R&D that most other speaker manufacturers just dream about.
• The improvements are measurable in sophisticated ways and (presumably audible)
• They love those new Diamond tweeters and spend a surprising about of time wondering in writing why they sound so good to them when much of the improvements are at frequencies above 20 KHz. For me the impulse graph on page 18 shows the advantage most clearly. The diamond version is just so superior in its tracking of the impulse.
• Despite all the measurements, it is as much an art as a science with B&W opening wondering about the reasons behind various improvements to the human ear.
• There is still plenty more room for improvement with the measurements showing some big improvements but still a way to go1.
• B&W are to be congratulated on their honesty in the white paper - for example the combined frequency response graphs for the speakers are impeccable - but those for the individual drivers show all sorts of common (but not normally revealed) anomalies that get corrected by the crossover and cabinets etc.. Yet you can see just how much better the speakers are for this improvement

However I get more each time I read it...

And – I really want them!!!

Geoff

[sikoniko]

I went by my dealer thursday and he handed me the book and said I'm probably the only one who would actually read it. He then showed me the new dealer training DVD and book and said I could borrow it next week! sweet!

[Aussie Geoff]

Sikoniko,

You went to the dealer...

.... I see ....

He "...handed you the book..." and will lend you the DVD

I think:
a) That dealer is smart
b) He can see an upgrade coming :T

"Resistance is Futile"
Nautilus, the Next Generation!

Geoff

[sikoniko]

actually, I won't be upgrading because I just made my last speaker upgrade for awhile.

[Aussie Geoff]

Sikoniko,

I tell myself that too...

But my dealer (like yours) knows better about the true desires of my heart! ops:

PS - I see from your other post that the comment above means you now have the SCM1s you've been wanting - if so congratulations! :T

PPS - Beware - the power of Upgraditus is strong...

Geoff

[Lewing]

Hi all, thought some of you might interested in this one...

i just went through a Hong Kong AV webpage and found out there was a new B&W Diamond series speakers demonstration in Hong Kong. Registrated members of avbuzz.com who paid and attended the speakers demonstration all received the limited edition B&W watch (only 1000 limited edition B&W watches in the world). h:

The B&W watch

Sorry but the page is in chinese.

[sikoniko]

the book in those pics is the same one my dealer is gonna loan me.

[hillen]

First review 802 D

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hi all,

The German Audio Magazine "Audio" reviewed the 802D and compared the latest version with the former ( current ) Nautilus 802. The reviewer was very impressed and rewarded the latest version with 99 points ( former version got 95 points ). I own the Nautilus 802's - with the Bryston 4B-SST and the Tact Roomcorrection preamp RCS 2.0 S + Sony SCD-1 - and I am still very very happy with the sound. A point of interest is, I got a significant improvement by replacing the original plastic phase plugs of the midrange units ( bullets ) by the aluminium Signature 800 phaseplugs. One very important point: DO remove the paint on the bullet where it contacts the copperplate of the magnet by using sandpaper and the soundquality will LEAP forward, because then the aluminium will be in DIRECT contact with the copper.
B&W tried various materials like brass, copper, silver and also very exotic materials for the bullets, but aluminium proved to be the CLEAR winner, making the best sound.

Bram Hillen ( Holland )

[Aussie Geoff]

Hillen,

Thanks for this...

Is the magazine published yet?
What issue was it?
Do they have a web site?

Regards

Geoff

[Aussie Geoff]

Hi,

An interesting UK Article in AudioFile on the new B&W Range. Most notably:

For now, diamond domes are not to be used in the smaller members of the 800 range

and

Focal was referred to repeatedly in the technical presentation, albeit covertly rather than by name, and in later conversation it was clear that B&W has much more respect for Focal’s engineering prowess than say, for one time arch rivals KEF.

Geoff

[sikoniko]

I like the "for now" part. I suspect S3 will have all of the diamond technologies in the entire line.

[hillen]

Thanks for this...

Is the magazine published yet?

Yes, you can buy it now everuwhere ( at leat in the Netherlands or Germany )

What issue was it?

The "Januar" issue.

Do they have a web site?
I don't know, but just try it on Google ( "Audio" )

Regards

Bram Hillen

[rockethouse]

Hi all,

My first post in B&W.

Here's something I read elsewhere.

"I heard the new B & W diamond tweeter 800's and 802's at a show here in Seoul two weeks ago, and they were a big, big disappointment. The signature series 800's were much better."

Ive posted on that site asking him to elaborate and I'll keep you informed.

Cheers

[rockethouse]

Ok he got back to me and here it is.

"Rockethouse, that new N800D sounded very colored and mushy. The diamond tweeter offered little to my ears. The tweeter in the previous line was fine as it was. the new one is supposed to go up to 50-60 khz, but it didn't seem to offer more than the previous line. The speakers were hooked up to the new Classe line, the same as your link above. I went into the next room and listened to the old S800 and they sounded much much better with a line of Esoteric gear that blew my socks off. The S800 is a wonderful speaker. I've been very impressed in general with the B&W S & N lines, but the new diamonds were less than scintillating. Perhaps it was because the new speakers weren't yet broken in or something, but the cabinet synergy and the over sound was weak and unimpressive."

[krishd]

Rockethouse .. I read this (and your posts) also on audiogon. It will be very disappointing if it is true that the new series is not significantly better (especially given the price increase).

A lot of B&W bashing goes on in some forums like audio asylum. Those guys will have a field day unless this new series is a substantial improvement. (of course, most probably, even if it is a major improvement those guys will do their thing)

[Aussie Geoff]

Rockethourse,

I'm sure your friend heard what he heard (hearing is personal)...

However I think we all should wait a little while - they'll be out on 15 January to hear...

On a personal note I would be extremely surprised if the new range sounded worse to most people for several reasons:
1) They measure demonstrably better in a variety of key ways (distortion, linearity etc)
2) They are made by B&W who have a serious reputation to upkeep in the market.
3) The B&W design team listen to music on them extensively (always a good sign) and - the 3 of them whom I have correspondence with are extremely excited by the new range...

This doesn’t mean everyone will like them (not everyone like the new 700 series or the current 800 series)

Nor does it mean that all of the new range will be equally improved,,,

However time will tell all... And a little controversy is not a bad thing...

Besides “a little birdie” told me that Abbey Road Studios are in raptures over their 801Ds (which they did a direct swap for the older 801s) – so there is at least one model / happy customer out there…

Geoff

[rballister]

First post! I've been waiting about 20 years to update my speakers. After doing some comparison shopping over the last 3 weeks (jmlab, sonus faber, martin logan), the 802's blew me away (kinda HUGE for an apartment, though, but I was not as impressed with the 803's). Then I came upon these posts and became aware of the new line. I think I can get a deal on a pair of 802's but I'm really torn about the new stuff, in particular the 803D's (despite the big price difference, they appear to be 50 lbs. lighter, and as mentioned, I don't buy speakers very often. I've also read a few references that they "surpass" the performance of the old 802s. But Rockethorse's post did give me pause. Geoff--any info from those same engineers or other insiders about the 803Ds?

[Aussie Geoff]

Rballister,

I do have a soft spot for the N803D myself. ... presently I have set-up the N803D's with a Classe CA-2200

However if you like the 802s - and can power them, why not - the 802s now are US $8,000 a pair - same as the 803Ds whereas the new 802Ds are US $12,000 a pair... And you can bet that the 803D will sound different from the 802s so it all depends on how good the deal on the 802s is now and whether you could afford the 802Ds if you didn't like the sound of the 803Ds... If you love the 802s and are being offered a great deal - why not take them...

Geoff

[rballister]

Ahh, the power thing. There seems to be a lot of different opinions. Two dealers told me the 802s were efficient. I purposely asked the dealer not to hook them up to a high-end amplifier (it was 100 watts!!!). the 802s still sounded better than anything else I heard. I have a new Krell 200w integrated amplifier (KAV400xi) so I guess the 802s would be O.K. The 802Ds are completely out of my price range. The dealer offered B stock (any thoughts on B stock?) for $6000. I got the usual dealer paranoia---they could be gone by Jan. 15, blah, blah., but I'd kick myself if it turned out that the 803Ds really do sound better than the old 802s and are smaller, too. The size/weight thing is kind of important, too. The 802s are behemoths relative to my old speakers and I live in a New York City apartment. I'm trying to find out if the 803Ds really do sound better than the old 802s in order to convince myself to spend that whopping amount of cash. I'm particulary curious about the bass response, too. (Will 3 smaller woofers ( 803D) yield better response than 2 larger ones (old 802)?

[Jeff]

I'm not sure what my B&W dealer will be ordering as far as the new D or S series. Although I will rush out to review them with a hand full of cd's once he has them on the floor. I would like to point out to those concerned, these speakers will be NEW. From what everyone says, Nautilus takes a long time to brake in. I would expect the old n802's to sound better then a new out of the box N803D. I would like to think by spring or summer they should be coming into their own. But only time will tell.

Jeff

[rockethouse]

Aussie Geoff, I'm an Aussie too (SA).

I submited a post but it seems to have been lost so here's another.

I dont know the person from the other forum who I quoted in the above post nor do I know his credentials. His opinon is just that but I thought I would share it with the folks here anyway.

I have seen the specs (and knowing what B&W is like) I would be surprised if the new series was not a notable improvment.

krishd
Yes rest assured the B&W bashers will carry on doing what they do regardless.

I will have some D series here soon (8-10wks) so I'll be able to form my own opinion. I'll keep in touch.

[Aussie Geoff]

Hi,

I have an Email (received before Christmas) from someone in the trade who spent a day at B&W while he was in the UK visiting family. I have, with his (just received) permission. extracted the key text (with some minor edits), while (at his request) leaving him anonymous as all pre 15 January 2005 UK dealer demonstrations etc are done under some kind of non disclosure (don’t ask me why!)

During my tour of the B&W R&D facilities I was privileged enough to spend some time with one of their lead engineers who was keen to show me the audible impact of all the changes they had made. We spent some time in a demo room which had the new 802 Diamonds and the older 802s in them. Both well broken in according to the engineer. With a little shuffling and some cable swapping we were able to compare the new with the old on the same equipment. They had a rack of very impressive looking Classe equipment – the new curved ones with the display screen even on the amplifiers. They had the room all set-up, so I got the feeling this was a party trick B&W are doing for dealers etc who visit.

How did they sound? We listened firstly to the current 802s, which sounded as good as I’ve ever heard them. Those Classe amplifiers are clearly something special, I wish they weren't so expensive! We then switched to the new Diamonds, moving the old 802s well away. The new 802 Diamonds were “more and better” of the same B&W 802 sound we all know. My first impression was of a very significant extra level of treble detail that I didn’t know I was missing. Cymbals had more fine “grain” in the sound with continuous variations to the timbre from when they were hit as the sound grew and died. You could hear really low level treble detail. This extra detail wasn’t over bright it was just there, affecting female voices, and many instruments with a a fine layer of extra information in the sound. Very impressive. The bass was tighter as well, you could hear the sounds of the drum skins and bass guitar so clearly. Midrange was very similar – always a strong point of the 802s. However the upper midrange as it blended into the treble was clearly smoother and more natural.

We then switched back to the older 802s and, just like in the magazines, it was as if a veil had been added over the sound. The old 802s were still good, but the new Diamonds were clearly just that much better again.

I have listened to the very impressive Focal Utopias on several occassions and it seemed to me that the B&Ws had gained much of the detail edge that they had without being as dominantly bright. While we were switching back to the new Diamonds again, I mentioned this to the B&W engineer – he was clearly pleased, and acknowledged that the Focals were one of the informal internal benchmarks they had when designing and listening to the new speakers. Back to the new Diamond 802s for some more tracks. Really impressive. I left quite excited. Of course there’s the bad news, which is the substantial cost increase that the new 802 Diamonds have over the old ones. It’s like they are a whole new model costing 50% more, so you’d expect them to sound great.

Interesting indeed… A pity he didn’t listen to the 803Ds as well (my current dream speaker)…

Of course this opinion is no more (or less) valid than that reported by others such as the one from the Seoul 800D demonstration. I need to mention that the person is a (self confessed) B&W fan – taking the time to visit B&W while in the UK on a “see the family” holiday (probably helped make part of the trip tax deductible!)

Anyway – a few weeks and we will have the professional reviews (and our own ears) to judge with..

But if there are any more staff from B&W dealers out there who've been privileged to hear any of the new range on the special demos B&W UK and some of their overseas distributors have been doing... Well you know where to post - or you could always Email me...

Geoff

[sikoniko]

Thats great Geoff! I was thinking that the negative review could be due to so many factors since they were not identical systems. It might be the classe's he didn't like just as much as the 800D's.

[Aussie Geoff]

Sikoniko,

You're right - sound is personal and what people like varies. I remember (means I'm old) when the current Nautilus Range came out in 1997 or 1998 (I forget which) there were people who still preferred the previous 800 Matrix Series 2 (remember the boxy 802 Matrix Series 2s!). It took a year or two before the maganizes and Usenet forums settled down and there was general consensus that the Nautilus Range was better.

But - based on the description of the differences between the two (and my memories of how good the current 802s sound) I wish I could afford the new 802Ds... Still... we can't always have what we want

Geoff

[sikoniko]

Before I upgraded my speakers, I had a matrix HTM. I thought it was a good center. I upgraded my 604's to 805's and the center sounded funny so I pursued the htm2. It was unbelieveable what a difference there was. The matrix HTM just sucked compared to the htm2. It amazed me how much was missing in the HTM compared to the htm2. The first thing I watched was gladiator (DTSES) and there was a whole horn section in the openning battle that was not there in the htm.

[Dutch in USA]

New B&W Nautilus Range

I recently purchased the N802 as an upgrade from Signature 805's. The 805's are awesome for bookhelf speakers, but they do not match the mass and power that the 802's bring to the whole house if needed. once you have auditioned the 802's you cannot go back anymore...
I have them powered by Classe CP 47.5 pre amp and CA 201 power amp. As a source I have the Sony XA777ES. The combination is stunning.

Here comes its purchase history...
When I got ready to buy some serious HIFI, I found that the Sony CD player that I auditioned was replaced by the new 9000ES. I was about to pay more for technically the same machine, which looks horrendous, with added digital out for the SACD...with already 6 DAC in the player (3 per channel in stereo mode) this did not strike me as relevant.. I found the "old" one online and got it fast.

Then shortly after I purchased the rest of my initial set up with the 805's in October 03, Classe came out with a new series. I am glad I have the current one as I like them a lot better visually (Spartan) and sound wise they rock. Next to that, the price jump would have made me go look at Rotel again...

Now the same happens with the 802's. Initially I get that bummer feeling, but when reading what the consequences are I am over that fast!
Once you get to a certain level of equipment, the upgrade levels that are available are limited, but cost a fortune. This also counts for the new Diamond series. They might sound better, but they will not be 50% better. Claiming the 803d's sound better than the current 802's is a bit premature as a speaker is not just about the units/drivers, but also about the cabinet they are fitted in. And do not forget your amp and source.

Although I am not a target customer for the next years, I will give them a listen just because I like new stuff. Coming home however, I will turn on my "old" stuff and dream away on my couch with a sound that is envelloping, clear, revealing (sometimes too much..) and simply gorgeous.
New stuff is cool and innovation is good, but that does not make the "old" stuff go sour overnight. Enjoy what you have / can afford and dream of the rest. Without those dreams even HIFI gets boring.
Cheers!

[Aussie Geoff]

Dutch,

Well said... The existing 800 series sounds fantastic - just as it did when people bought them. The new 802D should "dam well" sound a lot better than the old ones at 50% more $. Equally the 803D should be as good or better than the old 802 for the same price! No one who has the current range should feel any buyers remorse...

And your point about buying bargains in the old range (e.g. the CD player) is a excellent one... Often last years model is just fine...

Geoff

[sikoniko]

Dutch,

I agree! While I wish I could have gotten a second set of SCM1's and current 803's, I am definately happy with what I have.

[sprakash]

Hi everybody,
my first post.
I am waiting eagerly to check out the new 804s.
My story thus far:
My dealer has a 1 year speaker upgrade policy where you can trade-in the speakers for full credit towards a more expensive pair.
So I have gone from 603s3/cc6 -> 805/htm2 ->804/htm1
and am waiting for the 804s/htm3s.
This will probably be my cheapest upgrade so far. And probably my last ;-)
Waiting eagerly for the speakers to debut.
Cheers,
SP

[jazznsoccer]

The Nautilus Diamond book

Hi Sikoniko,

Did you get a chance to review the book? The nice folks at B&W Marketing sent me a copy with the DVD in the mail (Thanks Amy!). Interesting material sprinkled in with a lot of the normal Marketing filler. Now just need to hear a comparison of 803D, 802, 802D in the store....

[sikoniko]

Jazz,

No, I havent been back to my dealer yet. I will be there this friday, so perhaps I can borrow it over the weekend.

[Aussie Geoff]

Germain Audio Magazine Review of new 802 D

Hi,

I have found the web link for the German Audio magazine's review of the new 802 D compared to the old 802s... http://www.audio.de/d/55294

However it is in German and a PDF that costs 1.2 Euro (less than $2)...

Anyone read German and keen to know what the review says?

Geoff

[caleb]

802d

Our dealer here has had a pair of these since end November.

I only found out when I stumbled into his demo room and had a second glance at the 802's.

They are subltly different in appearance to the old ones with the tweeter being lower into the head unit and of course the bass drivers are also quite different in appearance - gone is the fabric on the top - replaced by what looks like leather.

Heard them driven with Classe amps and an improvement in sound (they had probabley not been fully burned in yet) over the old 802.

There are apparaently many more improvements that have been made that you actually can't see and this is the reason for the better sound.

Worth the extra money?

Hmmmmmmmmm!

Caleb

[sikoniko]

Here is a german page that has everything we already know well organized..

German Version

Thanks Sikoniko - Aussie Geoff here - I've corrected the link abouce using the URL syntax and put in a translated version (courtesy of Google.. English Version

Enjoy

[Angus]

N805s

Interesting stuff. Just found this forum today, makes a change from boring my usual Linn forum about B&W.

Anyone know if the 805S is shielded? The specs for all models are on the Japanese website, but my Japanese is limited. I did notice the weight difference: 805 9kg, 805 Signature 9.5kg (presumably heavier magnet), 805S 11.5kg. Perhaps the cabinet has more stiffening too?

About 2 years ago I bowed to domestic pressure and replaced my 802 Matrix S3 by the 805. The mid/treble is a little better, but I miss the bass! The 805S might be a way of bringing some back. One reason I didn't buy the Signature was the fact that they weren't shielded.

Angus

[Rags]

Well guys I have placed my order for them. 803s and the HTM3 centre. Was seriously considering the 803D and HTM2D at first but decided the extra $4000 would be better spent improving my processor and source side of things. I am mostly a movies man and with the lossy codecs currently being used I concluded (maybe incorrectly?) that the diamond tweeters wouldnt really add a huge amount to movies but would prove more useful for music use. In addition I felt that two 7 inch bass drivers were enough together with a big sub in a medium sized room.

Are B&W saying that the 803S is substantially better than the outgoing model ? I hope so and am expecting a substantial improvement from my current 804's.

[Big Chief Notea]

Well guys I have placed my order for them. 803s and the HTM3 centre. Was seriously considering the 803D and HTM2D at first but decided the extra $4000 would be better spent improving my processor and source side of things. I am mostly a movies man and with the lossy codecs currently being used I concluded (maybe incorrectly?) that the diamond tweeters wouldnt really add a huge amount to movies but would prove more useful for music use. In addition I felt that two 7 inch bass drivers were enough together with a big sub in a medium sized room.

Are B&W saying that the 803S is substantially better than the outgoing model ? I hope so and am expecting a substantial improvement from my current 804's.

Shrek will sound mighty fine now

[Stevebez]

803D's - any review out yet ?

This may be my present for myself this year - if they sound as good as they look well ...... and then there is the price tag... why is it £5500 / pair in the UK when it will selling for $4000 ea? This translates to about £$4200 / pair... where does the rest come from please? If u add VAT its still under £5k.

Any reviews out ..?

Any views on a match with ROTEL 1080 ?

I reckon spending big money on speakers is never wasted (as long as there is equivalent pricing) .. the technology is not in a mode that is growing as fast paced as the processor side of things. Look how long its taken to get the new 800 series out ... and look how far Processors have come in this time ...

Rgds Steve

[tmt]

804 check, this weekend 803D

first impressions from Belgium here
Yesterday I went to a dealer who already has the 804s in demo for a quick listening. (he's still waiting for the rest of the range to arrive)
I must admit it's been 2 years since I've listened to high end stuff. Back then I wanted to buy the 803s but in the end I wanted to wait until the series got an upgrade, which is now! :B

The speakers were connected to a Yamaha amp (no joke!) because he didn't have time yet to connect everything to the Rotel equipment, and the speakers weren't broken in yet. But anyway in my humble opinion they already sounded fantastic, a lot better than the old 804s and on par with the old 803. Much improved bass response, even more than the old 803.

Unfortunately he didn't have any old Nautilus any more to compare to. For a laugh he switched to the 703 speakers, and naturally the Nautilus blew those right out of the water!

I now regret I haven't listened to the old 802 because they were out of my pricerange (my rule is never listen to speakers you can't afford, you'll only want to cry afterwards) I'd really like to know if the new 803D can match the old 802.

This weekend I'm going to another dealer which has the 803D on Rotel and Thule equipment. If you don't know Thule, they have some terrific amps.
I can't wait!

[ti33er]

...with bated breath I marched into my dealer's reception a few minutes ago (anticipating the assured arrival of the B&W reps, bringing with them the new 800's of course) and discovered that they hadn't arrived yet (ARGH), and furthermore learned that it will take a few days to unpack the newbies (double ARGH!) - I mean come on guys, show some team spirit here please! hehe

...anyway, I will go in again tomorrow, hoping that they will have arrived by then, and "help" them unpack, and of course pester them for a little demo if I can get my way... ...till tomorrow it is!

[Aussie Geoff]

It33r,

What a man - helping out the store like that :T

I've an idea - if they are too busy to unpack them - maybe they will let you take them home, unpack them and break them in for them... Save a lot of time

Geoff

[weijst]

I've an idea - if they are too busy to unpack them - maybe they will let you take them home, unpack them and break them in for them... Save a lot of time Geoff[/COLOR]

Addition:
You know what, I'm even willing to take a pair of 802D home with me (no charge) and set them up in my living room for an extended period of time (think years here) in order to report the speakers' long term performance to the dealers. All for free! Now how's that for a nice gesture??!!

No seriously, since rumours are the new range (the S range that is) will be driven easier than their predecessors, maybe the new Nautilus range will be more accessible for people with less high end amplification...

[Rags]

Details of the new range are now on B&W's website :T