How to: Piano gloss-like finish?

[Finleyville]

Anyway...

CAUTION: Extreme woodworking newbie working with knowledgeable woodworking family member

So I will be assembling the Zaph Seas design in a piano gloss PE enclosure. I dispise the stock matte finish baffle and want to create my own. I will be choosing a ~1" thick solid piece of red oak, mahogany, cherry, etc. Ideally, I would like the final finish to look like the rosewood enclosure below.

Images not available

I will have access to a family member's HVLP spray gun. I need direction on how to achieve my goal. My plan of action:

1) Route/cut/countersink all driver cutouts.
2) Sand, sand, sand. (Unsure what grit(s) and how long. [I know...prep is everything])
3) Stain wood with my choice of red.
4) "Clearcoat"
5) Sand, sand, polish, polish (Again, unsure of the appropriate method to be used here)

I have searched and found a couple of members liking a product from www.pianolac.com. Will this give me the extreme deep gloss finish found on the PE pre-fabs? Will one quart cover two 8.5" x 14" baffles?

Thanks for all the help! This woodworking stuff is all rocket science to me. ops:

[augerpro]

This is a pretty good thread on that: http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showt...141&highlight=

[2Below]

Piano gloss is going to take some time. If you're going to stain the wood, you don't really want to sand much finer than 220-320 before staining otherwise the wood poors tend to close and you won't get an even stain. I've never used the product you mention. I wouldn't suggest red oak for this type of finish as the grain is too coarse.

Yes - the prep work is everything. The slightest imperfection is going to show.

The last project I did with that kind of gloss was a redwood burl clock. I used an automotive clear with an epoxy hardener added. This is REALLY nasty stuff - don't even think about spraying it without a good fresh air mask (think about inhaling isocyanate fumes) . You'll need to let it dry in between coats and sand with progessively finer coats of paper. You'll start with probably 400-600 depending on how smooth you can get the finish to lay down out of the gun. Once you get a sufficient base layer down with all the pores filled, you can wet sand (with water) up to 2500 grit. At that fine of grit paper, you'll see a pretty good gloss when your done. You want to use 600-800-1000-1200-1500-2000-2500 without skippig a step in between.

For the polishing steps, I like 3M or Mirror Glaze products. Rubbing compound followed by a product called Finesse It. You can machine polish it with a wool bonnet. Be very carefull to not burn though the finish as you've invested a lot if time into your project at this point.

You might check into a procedure called "French Polishing". You'll get the high gloss your looking for but it's done by hand and takes forever.

[chasw98]

I have searched and found a couple of members liking a product from www.pianolac.com. Will this give me the extreme deep gloss finish found on the PE pre-fabs? Will one quart cover two 8.5" x 14" baffles?

Thanks for all the help! This woodworking stuff is all rocket science to me. ops:

When I was searching and learning how to do a piano gloss finish, I talked with the man at Pianolac. He really inferred that the product was for pros and had to be bought in large quantities and used with "pro" equipment. Jim Holtz led me to Crystalac. It is so very easy to use and I did manage to get a true piano gloss black finish. It shines like a mirror. It will show every little imperfection in the wood beneath it. It is water based so clean up is very easy. Here is an example of what I was able to do. Be forewarned! It takes a lot of work and careful prep.



Check out this tutorial.

Chuck

[Jim Holtz]

Anyway...

CAUTION: Extreme woodworking newbie working with knowledgeable woodworking family member

So I will be assembling the Zaph Seas design in a piano gloss PE enclosure. I dispise the stock matte finish baffle and want to create my own. I will be choosing a ~1" thick solid piece of red oak, mahogany, cherry, etc. Ideally, I would like the final finish to look like the rosewood enclosure below.

Images not available

I will have access to a family member's HVLP spray gun. I need direction on how to achieve my goal. My plan of action:

1) Route/cut/countersink all driver cutouts.
2) Sand, sand, sand. (Unsure what grit(s) and how long. [I know...prep is everything])
3) Stain wood with my choice of red.
4) "Clearcoat"
5) Sand, sand, polish, polish (Again, unsure of the appropriate method to be used here)

I have searched and found a couple of members liking a product from www.pianolac.com. Will this give me the extreme deep gloss finish found on the PE pre-fabs? Will one quart cover two 8.5" x 14" baffles?

Thanks for all the help! This woodworking stuff is all rocket science to me. ops:

I'll add a couple thoughts to Chuck's post. BTW, beautiful job on the cabinets and finish Chuck! Very, very nice!

Crystalac Super Premium is exceptionally easy to work with and dries super hard. It also is extremely resistant to stains and marks of any kind. They also make a clear grain filler that I'm going to try on my next project for that super smooth, glossy look. I've linked to it below.

http://www.mcfeelys.com/product/CPF-2530/Quart-CrystaLac-Wood-Grain-Filler

Crystalac is available in a variety of finishes from dull to gloss and from water clear to black or white. Excellent product. Constantines and McFeeleys are two of the largest resellers of the product.

Another product on my radar screen to try is Target Coatings water based lacquer. It also can be cleaned up with water and has super low odor. It looks and works just like solvent based lacquer from what I understand including burn in from coat to coat just like solvent based. What that means is, if the finish gets damaged, it can be repaired rather than sanding the complete item and reshooting it.

Crystalac and Target lacquer can both be buffed out to super gloss finishes.

Sweet stuff!

Jim

[engr_dave]

What 2Below said.

Sand, stain as desired, seal with a good lacquer sanding sealer or vinyl sealer. Then any good automotive clear lacquer (like DuPont 300s) should work nicely.

My latest project used black lacquer, but identical results can be achieved with clear:

[Finleyville]

I'm sorry to bring this post from the dead, but now I am more confused since talking to some other people.


The type of wood for the front baffle I plan on finishing is regular maple. I plan on using the Transtint brand of dye in water to stain the wood before I seal it with the Crystalac stuff.


1) How fine a grit should I sand by hand on the raw, bare wood before I dye it? I have 120, 240, 320, 400, 800, 1200, and 1500. So far I am up to 400.

2) Won't a smoother surface of bare wood produce a smoother, deeper final gloss? Or is it only the final coat of clear that dictates the "glossiness"?

3a) Someone said I should seal the bare wood with a 1 lb. cut of Zinsser clear shellac BEFORE I dye it. This would prevent dye water spotting. Won't this "tint" my bare wood a little yellow? Won't this step seal the wood preventing the water-borne dye to penetrate the wood?

3b) Since my baffles have a 45 deg. chamfer on the edges won't this area soak up more dye since it is essentially the "end grain"? Should I just shellac these areas to prevent uneven coloring?

4) If I do shellac first, should I sand it before I dye it? If so to what grit?

5) After the wood is dyed and before I apply the Crystalac, do I need to apply any other sealer or product?

Possibly more questions to follow. Thanks so much for all the help people!

[bob barkto]

1., 3. & 4. - Stop at 400 for now.

3a. If you coat the whole thing with shellac now the dye won't penetrate.

You might want to test the color penetration on a scrap of your end grain before proceeding. If you've sanded maple to 400 I think you won't need any treatment of the end grain prior to dyeing. But if it should be too dark then a wash coat of shellac on the end grain only is in order. A wash coat is very thin. About 5/1 alcohol to shellac. One coat will probably do. Take care not to get any on the front or edges of the baffle. Sand with 400-600 after application.

Now dye the whole lot.
I like to wet sand with the dye solution as a lubricant. Makes a very smooth evenly colored surface, no lap marks, no raised grain, ready for finish coats. 600 grit wet/dry paper works great. Keep things wet until you've covered the whole surface then wipe dry.

2. Both; You'll need less finishing material to get to a high gloss if the surface is very smooth to start with. When you apply the finish coats they might need further attention to get to a level of smoothness and gloss that you desire.

5. You should use only the Crystalac for the finish. The first 2 coats will seal and fill the small pores of the maple. The subsequent coats will build a glossy film. Sand between every other coat with 300-400 grit paper. Use non-stearated sandpaper. Vacuum and wipe with a slightly damp cloth. No tack cloths, no solvents.

The final sprayed coat should lay out smooth. If not...well that's another topic for another day.:Z

[bonehead848]

when you say spray, do you mean like an auto spray gun? If so, could you recommend any? Sorry for the stupid post but just clarifying...

[bob barkto]

Yep, "like" an auto spray gun.
Or a turbine HVLP setup which I think is superior for furniture and cabinetry (and speaker boxes) in most situations.

It's impossible to make a good recommendation without knowing specifics, but..

I think for most DIY speaker builders the gravity fed detail/touchup or bumper/jamb guns in Reduced Pressure/LVLP or HVLP configuration are the next best choice after turbine HVLP. They have substantialy reduced air requirements, a smaller "fan" width at optimum atomization settings and less overspray than the full sized guns.

DeVilbis, Iwata, Sata, any of the well known mfg's. make excellent guns with parts readily available and tip setups for most any material. Some of the cheaper guns might spray well but when you need to replace seals or change tip setups you might not be able to because no-one sells the parts. Consider the cheaper guns as good only for occasional use and ultimately disposable when they wear out.

[Black300zx]

Another question on this topic:

Is it easier/better to rout the holes before or after painting? I'd like to lay down the paint after the holes are cut (to avoid chipping the paint), but I'm concerned that buildup in the driver recesses will give me problems with driver fitment.

[wkhanna]

The type of wood for the front baffle I plan on finishing is regular maple. I plan on using the Transtint brand of dye in water to stain the wood before I seal it with the Crystalac stuff.


1) How fine a grit should I sand by hand on the raw, bare wood before I dye it? I have 120, 240, 320, 400, 800, 1200, and 1500. So far I am up to 400.

I was told by the people at Woodcraft that ~ 600 would be good. I used the 1 lb. cut of Zinsser Sealer cut 50/50 with denatured alcohol. Alcohol will raise the grain less than cutting with water.
I was told not to sand with too fine a grit, as it would inhibit penetration of sealer and/or stains. After I applied one coat of sealer cut 50/50 with the alcohol, I then did a V light sanding with my orbital sander. I then applied the TransTint cutting it again with alcohol to minimize raising the grain.

2) Won't a smoother surface of bare wood produce a smoother, deeper final gloss? Or is it only the final coat of clear that dictates the "glossiness"?

As was said previously, a smoother surface to start with will aid in obtaining a smooth finish in the end.

3a) Someone said I should seal the bare wood with a 1 lb. cut of Zinsser clear shellac BEFORE I dye it. This would prevent dye water spotting. Won't this "tint" my bare wood a little yellow? Won't this step seal the wood preventing the water-borne dye to penetrate the wood?

It will darken slightly, but that is one reason you want to cut a 1 lb. sealer 50% with either water or denatured alcohol. If you are using TransTint, it shouldn’t have much if any effect on your final shade.

3b) Since my baffles have a 45 deg. chamfer on the edges won't this area soak up more dye since it is essentially the "end grain"? Should I just shellac these areas to prevent uneven coloring?

IMHO, end grain is end grain, and will look like end grain unless painted. It is just the natural look of the wood, and as such, looks just fine, to me. But that is my personal preference, and I don’t expect it to everybody’s ‘cup of tea’.

4) If I do shellac first, should I sand it before I dye it? If so to what grit?

As I said, I used a slightly finer grit after applying my sealer to bring down the grain that raised, but again, too fine of a grit will inhibit penetration of your next coat of whatever finish you are using.

5) After the wood is dyed and before I apply the Crystalac, do I need to apply any other sealer or product?

I am not familiar with product, maybe try contacting the manufacturer.

I started with 600 grit, used the sanding sealer cut 50% with denatured alcohol, did a light sanding with 850 grit afterward, and then TransTint cut with denatured alcohol to the desired shade. I then buffed in 5 coats of Tung Oil. I am letting this 'cure' for a while, and may add a coat or more of shellac later to bring up just a tad more luster.

Edit: second pic is a bit blurry, actual finish more luster than this pic shows.

[Finleyville]

Another question on this topic:

Is it easier/better to rout the holes before or after painting? I'd like to lay down the paint after the holes are cut (to avoid chipping the paint), but I'm concerned that buildup in the driver recesses will give me problems with driver fitment.

I plan on masking the speaker cutouts before I spray. That way clearances are not a problem.

[bob barkto]

Water/Alcohol dye and shellac sealer

That is an important distinction.
The alcohol based dye will penetrate into and color the shellac.
Water based dye won't.

I was told by the people at Woodcraft that ~ 600 would be good. I used the 1 lb. cut of Zinsser Sealer cut 50/50 with denatured alcohol. Alcohol will raise the grain less than cutting with water.
I was told not to sand with too fine a grit, as it would inhibit penetration of sealer and/or stains. After I applied one coat of sealer cut 50/50 with the alcohol, I then did a V light sanding with my orbital sander. I then applied the TransTint cutting it again with alcohol to minimize raising the grain.

[Jim Holtz]

when you say spray, do you mean like an auto spray gun? If so, could you recommend any? Sorry for the stupid post but just clarifying...

Bob and WKHanna both offered great advice on staining. I will add to their thoughts on spray guns however.

If you're a professional wood worker/cabinet builder, the high end $500 - $1000 HVLP Turbine would probably be a good investment. The high end Sata, Binks and DeVilbis guns are also good suggestions if you're a professional but over my budget since I use them twice a year if I'm lucky.

Here's what I'd recommend if you're a hobbiest like me. If you don't have an air compressor capable of 10 CFM at 40 PSI, a Wagner HVLP works pretty darn good. Look at Chucks cabinet earlier in the thread for a fine example of what you can accomplish with a $100 turbine HVLP gun.

I recently purchased a Dura-Block HVLP spray gun to use on my projects. I have a large compressor so I decided to take advantage of it. The Dura-Block GMS 7003 is recommended highly by the Autobody Store ( http://autobodystore.net/Merchant2/m...ory_Code=2DBSG ) over the Sata, DeVillbis, Iwata and Sharpe guns they sell in the lower price range. It is an excellent spray gun and I'd also highly recommend it. Over spray is extremely low and the atomization is excellent. It is professional quality. Not the very best, but darn good and very reasonable.

BTW, Crystalac says a sealer isn't necessary. Spray two light coats with 30-45 minutes in between and then lightly sand after it dries. Then proceed with the build coats. Multiple light coats are much better than heavy thick coats. Directions are on the can.

Good luck!

Jim

[Black300zx]

I plan on masking the speaker cutouts before I spray. That way clearances are not a problem.

I considered that, but I was worried about build-up at the tape edge. Is that usually a problem?