Rotel vs Outlaw

**Andrew Pratt** · 26 March 2005, 17:07 Saturday

A BFD would be a good purchase even if you do keep the SVS unit. You could then tame that hump and boost the null lower down to help give you the impact you're missing. You'd likely drive the little 10" to it limits though at decent volumes.

**Nick M** · 26 March 2005, 21:22 Saturday

I'm looking at different EQs right now andrew. I figure that I'll end up getting one anyways. Why did you choose the BFD over other brands, and which model do you recommend?

Ron suggested I move the PB10-ISD next to my couch.
Gain was increased to 75%. Recalibrated to +/- 1dB at 70dB with Avia.
Here are the results...
***All readings were modified using SVS' RS SPL meter table***

Images not available

(Same deal... open/close/open/close to get them to work)

An SPL increase of 9dB at 15Hz, my first null moved forward in the FR, and response between 60-85Hz flattened out. I have a Huge 97.5dB peak at 20Hz...

The infrasonics are definetly better. I'm still getting some rumbling during intense bass sections on SACD, and the PB10 is sticking out during some intense passages. Running it -3dB down helps a bit, but then I lose impact.

Last time I looked at the clock it was 2pm... now it's 9pm?!

**Andrew Pratt** · 26 March 2005, 22:47 Saturday

Why did you choose the BFD over other brands, and which model do you recommend?

The BFD is a parametric EQ which means you aren't tied to physical bands of a more traditional EQ...plus the BFD is becoming the standard so there's plenty of help available and they're only $110ish. Parts Express has them as do many local music shops.

**junior77blue** · 26 March 2005, 23:24 Saturday

Page not found

http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/pshowdetl.cfm?&DID=7&Partnumber=248-656&ctab=6#Tabs

Looks like its on sale...

**Nick M** · 27 March 2005, 22:03 Sunday

Thanks junior.
BEHRINGER DSP1124P FEEDBACK DESTROYER PRO w/PARAMETRIC EQ

Is that the model you recommend Andrew?
If so I will be ordering it tomorrow morning.

**Andrew Pratt** · 27 March 2005, 22:47 Sunday

Yes that's the one.

**junior77blue** · 27 March 2005, 22:56 Sunday

Let us (me) know how it works out...I've been contemplating getting one myself.

**Nick M** · 27 March 2005, 23:32 Sunday

Thanks guys, I will order it in the morning. :W

**Kevin P** · 28 March 2005, 07:42 Monday

Good move Nick. Proper placement of your sub along with some strategic EQing will improve the quality of the bass you're getting. I had a BFD in my system before (it made a huge difference in my setup), and even though my house isn't even rebuilt yet, I have a brand new BFD in the box ready to go (took advantage of Parts Express's sale)

**Nick M** · 28 March 2005, 11:51 Monday

Woo-hoo! Its on the way.
I read Sonny's guide. I think the most difficult part will be in guessing the correct "Q" for each filter.

Does this thing make any noise? It will be in the room with me only 7ft away...

**Kevin P** · 28 March 2005, 13:06 Monday

Originally posted by Nicholas Mosher

Does this thing make any noise? It will be in the room with me only 7ft away...

The BFD makes no noise at all (no fans). The LEDs on the display are pretty bright... if this bothers you you may want to tape a piece of cardboard or something over the display after you've set it up.

**Patt** · 28 March 2005, 15:00 Monday

Originally posted by Nicholas Mosher

Thanks guys, I will order it in the morning. :W

Great thread Nick, I'm a wee bit curious to know how you like it.

My new 'closeout' #2900 has a fine picture.

**Nick M** · 28 March 2005, 19:58 Monday

The BFD should be delivered Wednesday! :T
I sure am glad I didn't blow an extra $15 for 2 day shipping...

h:

I absolutely love the audio from my 2900 Patt. Given that I'm getting my audio setup up to my liking first, I haven't really gotten the chance to experience it's video capabilities. Having said that though, the picture on my little tube I'm using temporarily looks pretty good given the $0.25 RCA cable and $70 TV. I can't wait to see how it looks on a big screen!

**Nick M** · 29 March 2005, 16:21 Tuesday

I've been chatting with Ed Mullen on another forum. He wrote the review for the SVS PB10-ISD for Secrets of Home Theater and High Fidelity.
http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volum...r-10-2004.html
He recommended I isolate the sub from my floor so I engaged in a little project today.

Here she is! :P
I also tried it in various combinations of materials.

Image not available

Using eveything shown in the picture, transmission of the lower frequencies into the floor was cut by about 2/3 to 75% I'd say. I didn't notice any improvement in the sound, but I did feel this made the bass even more localized. With it sitting on the floor, it seemed to blend into the background better. Without this partnership it sticks out like a sore thumb during intensive bass passages. I tested it out with a few SACDs along with the intro to LOTR: FOTR, SW: E1 (Pod Races), and chapter 4 of M&C. To be honest, I actually prefer the transmission of the low frequencies into the floor during movies. It really makes the explosions much more involving, especially during chapter 4 of M&C with cannon shots on the ship.

I can understand it's benefit during music though. I'm going to go back to setting the sub on the floor, but I will try the isolation footing again once it's EQd with the BFD.

**Patt** · 29 March 2005, 20:48 Tuesday

Now isnt that a project......

Mine is on spikes then a home depot concrete slab(painted flat black) then about 6 squash balls cut in half(painted flat black).

Nick!, no offense but that is uuuuugly. :P

**Nick M** · 29 March 2005, 20:58 Tuesday

:rofl:... I know, it was just a temporary experiment... :B

**Patt** · 29 March 2005, 21:09 Tuesday

Doing stuff like that does make a difference though. :B

Throw on a Blue Man Group cd and that sub will really talk to you. :dudes:

**Nick M** · 29 March 2005, 21:21 Tuesday

Oh it talks plenty, that seems to be the problem right now... :B
The BFD will be here tomorrow. Hopefully I can tame the boominess out of it, which should also help its localization issues.

**Nick M** · 30 March 2005, 12:59 Wednesday

Well I guess I can call off the lookout... :M
Parts Express told me "Wednesday at the latest!".
Just received the tracking number... Tomorrow...

I need to go buy some new SACDs. Now that my mind is set on getting something today, I will dammit! :P

Waiting sucks. :roll:

**Patt** · 30 March 2005, 13:19 Wednesday

Ahhh...shopping for cd's......That seems to be almost a real guessing game for me unless the store has listening posts so the cd can be listened to.

May be a bit soft for you and dont know if their on sacd but Acoustic Alchemy and Incendio are a couple of my favorites.

I once had my svs between the side of the couch and a solid wood cabinet and it really sounded localised. Moved it out in the open and it has been fine ever since.

**Nick M** · 31 March 2005, 23:07 Thursday

My ears have never been so worn out in my life! :E

I used all cuts, no bumps.

I left a small ramp starting at 20Hz scaling down 5dB to 50Hz.
FR from 50Hz to 85Hz is +/- 0.5dB.
I have a small +1.5dB blip at 90Hz, but then it flattens back out through 105Hz.
The one thing that erks me is a small valley from 105Hz to 115Hz, oh well.

Images not available

Because I'm in a 1500ft^3 room, I had no problems with red blips & clipping on the BFD. I still have the PB10s gain knob at 75%, although I boosted the volume via my pre/pro by 4dB. Darla tapping the fishtank in little nemo at 95dB yielded 1 or 2 green bars, thats it.

I could immediately tell the difference once that 65Hz peak was knocked down. (I listened to movies after every 2 or 3 filters) Less humble-bumble during intense action scenes. The subwoofer also blended-in except for a few extreme passages. I originally left the 20Hz peak, but it was so much higher than the rest of the curve that I had to bring it down some, it just didn't sound/feel right. Unfortunately this seemed to really hurt the infrasonics. While scenes like the ring drop and frodos heartbeat are present, they don't have the same ultra-low bone-shaking phenomena. I was getting a little-bit of that before, but now its almost nil.

As far as music is concerned, I'm going to listen some more tomorrow before I respond.

At $100 the BFD so far is an incredible piece of gear! I was lucky to have one spare Outlaw RCA cable, but I got hosed $5 for 2 RCA/phono adapters at Shack of the Rat.

More tomorrow...

**Andrew Pratt** · 31 March 2005, 23:23 Thursday

Nick you might want to try a steeper house curve to get a more pleasing sound from it. Take a look at the plot I posted before or view it on my website in the DIY area and you'll see that then can be pretty steep. Just add in another big boost around 30 and make it wide that way you can easily tailor the curve with each trial until you find on that suits your room.

**junior77blue** · 31 March 2005, 23:23 Thursday

Pretty easy to use? Big learning curve or straightforward?

**Nick M** · 31 March 2005, 23:39 Thursday

WOW Andrew! That is one helluva house curve! :rofl:

I actually tried 5 or 6 different Gain and Bandwidth settings on my 20Hz, 25Hz, and 30.2Hz filters. I found this to be just about right for my ears, but as I said above, those ultra-lows just aren't coming through in things such as Frodos Heartbeat or Pipe Organs. Scenes like Darla tapping the fishtank sound good though. I think I need a sub that is tuned lower...

Junior, the BFD is easy to use, it just takes awhile to get results like I got above. I just read sonnys guide, and then blew half the day experimenting. You just have to dedicate an afternoon, buy a 6-pack, and have at it. Just don't drink too many beers, you have to see the needle on the SPL meter...

:

BFD COMPREHENSIVE SETUP GUIDE .... Your complete guide to setting up your BFD as a parametric eq for your home subwoofer.

https://web.archive.org/web/20051228195504/http://www.snapbug.ws:80/bfd.htm

A complete and comprehensive guide to setting up the Behringer Feedback Destroyer to use as a parametric equalizer on a home subwoofer.

(DAMMIT! I just hit "Sort by Name" on my bookmarks...)

**Nick M** · 01 April 2005, 15:23 Friday

[homer]MMMM... Cooking Tater Tots... smell.... good... [/homer]

Okay, I just spent some time listening to some music. Definite improvements.

Diana Krall: Love Scenes DVD-A
The PB10 blends nice and smooth with my Ascend Acoustics 170's now. Double Bass chords are spectacular for the most part. At the beginnings of "Lost Mind" and "My Love Is" there are real fast notes that make the PB10 stick out. They start and stop fast and are fairly loud. The PB10 can't seem to do these without bringing attention to itself. With everything else it simply blended in and seamlessly supported the main 5 channels. Definite improvement, I listened to it for about 1/2hr I loved it so much.

Eagles: Hotel California DVD-A
I dunno, but those kick-drums in "Hotel California" sound like elephant farts

. Maybe it's just the mixing itself, but they sound god awful. The sub hits, sticks out in the room, and goes into a real low rumble. I'd appreciate if another AVS member who has this disc could take a listen and tell me what they here. Track 1.

Sting: Brand New Day
As track one opens there is a low droning of Bass that sets the mood. Very cool. Then comes these loud bass hits which suffer the same way they did while listening to Diana Krall. The hits make the sub immediately stick out, and they don't seem to be handled with authority. They seem loose or something. Track 5 has similar troubles. Overall the BFD made a gigantic improvement. Before I couldn't even stand listening to this disc, I felt like I was in some 16yr olds car with everything going MMMMM a BMMMMMM BMMMMMMM.

It sounds ok now, but again, not completely up to my expectatrions.

Telarc SACD Sampler #2
This has to be my favorite demo disc. It has everything! I started off with pipe organs. The PB10 fleshes them out nicely, but doesn't have those infrasonics I'm looking for. Lots of drums on tracks 2 & 7. Things are MUCH more clear. The droning has been reduced by about 80% I'd say. Again though, that ultra-low gut-twisting effect of those huge impacts that comes at the end of a drum blast almost like a whip-lash aren't there. Similar hits like I mentioned above make the PB10 stand out a bit though.

I think I would benefit from a lower crossover, say 60Hz, or possibly placing the sub on the front soundstage as Ed recommended. I'm still baffled by those kick drums though. God! I'm definetly looking at lower tuned subs like the SVS 16-46 PC-Plus. Another thing I've noticed thats weird around 20Hz is how the bass feels. Its almost like you can feel the sub struggling at high volume at those frequencies. The bass no longer feels like smooth pressure, its almost as though the sub is struggling and you can feel the 10" driver screaming. Going to make some tweaks here and there over the weekend before I call SVS up to try something else.

I don't want to come off sounding like I'm putting this sub down though. As I said previously, I haven't experienced this kind of bass before in anything less than $1000 at my two local hifi shops. Its just that after experiencing some of the $3000 subs there, I'm hoping for that same experience at 1/3 the price. I feel that I've achieved this type of value with my Ascend Acoustics 170s and $700 Outlaw Pre/Pro, I'm just looking for another value along these lines that meets my needs.

Oh, and two thumbs up on the BFD! What a great piece of gear for $100! Another stone-cold bargain.

**Kevin P** · 01 April 2005, 15:34 Friday

If you're looking for infrasonics or deep feeling at 20Hz, you may want to look at a larger sub, at least a 12" driver. The CS or PC series by SVS would likely be a better match for your expectations than the 10" box sub.

If you want to tighten up those kick drums, you might want to consider a sealed sub, or stuff the ports on a CS sub and see how it sounds to you.

**Nick M** · 02 April 2005, 00:09 Saturday

I just chatted via eMail/forum with Ron from SVS. I'll be upgrading my PB10-ISD to the 16-46 PC+. The PC-Ultra is only a couple hundred more, but Ed Mullen says it won't go deep with the same authority of the 16-46 PC+, even in 12Hz mode. Plus I'm pushing my budget for this upgrade as is... :B

Originally posted by Ron Stimpson from SVS

The 16-46PC+ is deeper and far far more powerful than your PB10-ISD. Where the latter starts to compress a deep peak, the PC+ will slice right thru it. The low group delay and unstressed nature of a driver and amp and ports that are all loafing, instead of pressed to their limits will be revealing.

**jimmyp58** · 02 April 2005, 07:50 Saturday

Elephant farts Nick???

**Nick M** · 02 April 2005, 11:42 Saturday

Elephant farts.

**junior77blue** · 03 April 2005, 21:08 Sunday

So, does the BFD perform like a digital room eq, but manually calibrated, i.e., no microphone feedback?

I've been considering the new B&W subs and Velodyne DD series subs. But, they are outrageosly priced.

**junior77blue** · 03 April 2005, 21:20 Sunday

Page not found | Behringer

http://www.behringer.com/FBQ2496/index.cfm?lang=ENG

The page you're looking for doesn't exist or has been moved.

New BFD on the way? I'm guessing no improvemements for HT applications.

**Nick M** · 03 April 2005, 21:43 Sunday

The nice thing about the BFD is how adaptable it is to your conditions. You pick the frequency, how wide of an area you affect, and the extent to which you cut or bump your chosen frequency. You will need an SPL meter to measure your frequency response, and then you determine/verify the changes you make.

I believe the new unit has more filters you can set. The version I bought has 12.

**Nick M** · 03 April 2005, 21:59 Sunday

I just boxed up my SVS PB10-ISD to ship back tomorrow morning.
SVS is going to pick up shipping costs for the return. I just printed out a pre-paid UPS return label. Class A service.

Lately I've been drooling over these...
Paradigm Signature S2's

Images not available

What a nice setup that would make x5. My local dealer quoted me $4200 (without stands). Too much money, but I can dream. This is terrible. I haven't even gotten my setup fully finished, and I'm dreaming of upgrades already... :roll: :B :P

**Nick M** · 03 April 2005, 22:56 Sunday

Image not available

:drool: :drool: :drool: :drool: :drool: :drool::drool: :drool: :drool:

Ok, thats enough! :rofl:
If you can't tell I took another listen to these the other day.
While I love my Ascend Acoustics 170s, these babies are just fantastic.
I'm going to try and put these out of my mind (and change my desktop...)!

**Nick M** · 04 April 2005, 13:27 Monday

Just talked to Erik at SVS, he told me to call back in a few days once they receive it. Then they will credit my account, charge me for the new sub, and ship out my 16-46 PC+. I'll probably get it sometime next week.

Oh the waiting...

:B

I just got a butt-load of DVD-As and SACDs in the mail today though... :E

**Patt** · 04 April 2005, 14:09 Monday

Nick,

You are in for a big suprise with the cylinder. :bluezoned:

**Kevin P** · 04 April 2005, 14:25 Monday

Good move Nick. I think you'll be a lot happier with the 16-46PC+.

As the performance car and HT-sub enthusiasts agree, there's no replacement for displacement.

You must work at the zoo if you know what elephant farts sound like.

**Nick M** · 04 April 2005, 14:45 Monday

You are in for a big suprise with the cylinder.

I can't wait to test it out!!!

46" Tall!!! :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
You should have seen the look on the guys face in the UPS store when I lugged in the PB10-ISD box. I'm not exactly a small guy, and I was struggling with the 75lb box (no handles, or places to grip it). He went white... :B

Good move Nick. I think you'll be a lot happier with the 16-46PC+.

My fingers are crossed!

You must work at the zoo if you know what elephant farts sound like.

Nope, just thought it would convey the sound better with an image... :lol:

**Nick M** · 04 April 2005, 19:15 Monday

Woo-hoo!
Just emptied my checking account!

The SVS 16-46 PC+ is on its way!
It's Ramen noodles and orange soda until Wednesday!

Images not available

EDIT: Just found a case of Amber Woodchuck Draft Cider in the bottom of my fridge... everything is ok! :W

**David Meek** · 05 April 2005, 07:41 Tuesday

Congrats Nick! :T (on the sub, AND the cider)

**Pieter** · 05 April 2005, 09:39 Tuesday

A day at the Forum

Nick,

There's only one other HTguide-member whose posts are as entertaining as yours; Bing.

**Nick M** · 05 April 2005, 11:28 Tuesday

Originally posted by David Meek

Congrats Nick! :T (on the sub, AND the cider)

I was getting nervous there looking through the fridge. I've got a bunch of frozen Dashi in the freezer though, so I'll be going japanese style with Miso Soup, Rice, and Pickles. :B

Scheduled delivery date for the 16-46 PC+ is this Thursday!
Can't wait to try this baby out...

Nick,

There's only one other HTguide-member whose posts are as entertaining as yours; Bing.

I'm just tellen' it like it is... and sticken' it to the man! :rofl:

**Nick M** · 07 April 2005, 11:38 Thursday

Images not available

More to come...

**junior77blue** · 07 April 2005, 12:03 Thursday

I'm eagerly waiting a 'review'!!

**Nick M** · 07 April 2005, 13:35 Thursday

I can't use the same near-field position between my left surround and couch due to the shear height of the 1646+... it interferes with the SL output!

I'm going to try it between the center channel and right main.

With the BFD in bypass mode I ran a few sine waves with the 1646+ (w/one port plugged in 12Hz mode) calibrated to 70dB with the mains...
Note that these are UNMODIFIED readings, no RS SPL fudge factors!

75dB @ 10Hz
87dB @ 15Hz

HOLY LOW FREQUENCY BATMAN! SECURE THE HATCHES!

Once the peaks are knocked down, and the sub rematched to the mains, these figures should be even higher! I had readings (albeit much lower) down into the single digits! I'd also like to note that the sub seems much less stressed than the PB10-ISD did in this frequency range.

I'm going to calibrate the sub w/BFD in a couple hours, I should have a final FR chart up tonight with some comments.

Rotel vs Outlaw

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Comment

Related Topics