Rotel vs Outlaw

[Nick M]

Denon DVD-2900 Initial Impressions

Images not available

My initial impressions...

Build quality is good. It's nice and heavy too, which I like. Faceplate is sturdy, and the button layout is near perfect. I plugged it in just to extend and retract the disc tray. Its not as sturdy as I had hoped. A little bit of a dissapointment. I was expecting a dense incredibly smooth unit. I was suprised to find a cheap plastic tray. It does seem to be damped well though, which is a plus. Display is a bright dot-matrix layout, not as big as the Outlaw 950's, but plenty large enough to read. Remote is very poor. No backlighting, cheap feel, and $0.99 build quality.

I hope the sound quality is up to par from the reviews I've read.
Probably gonna get an amp the Sunday after the big game.

[BobD207s]

Hi Nick

Just food for thought but have you considered the B&K amps - I have a 5 channel Octave that I purchased over 10 yrs ago and it works great - sound is so sweet. Check out www.cinemasource.com - they are right here in NH excellent folks to deal with

Good Luck,
Bob

[Nick M]

Checked out the B&K Bob.
$2500 is a little rich for my blood.
I only need 5ch of 100-120W power anyways.
My price range is $1000-$1200.

[Nick M]

Speakers

I just ordered five Ascend Acoustics CBM-170 2-way monitors. I'm going to test them out to see if all the raves are true. They are compared with the Paradigm Studio 20s that Im also considering.

http://www.ascendacoustics.com/pages/products/speakers/cbm170/cbm170.html

AA says they will ship them out Monday (from the west coast, bummer!).

I also have enough money for an amp, but have yet to decide. I might be working out a deal for a used Outlaw 755. More power than I need, but the asking price is good. I'm also going to head down to the local hifi shop again to check out some anthem amps, along with the 1075 again.

Should have some DVD-A and SACDs cranking in a week or so. Then I have to start saving again for a subwoofer. Still debating on various SVS units, but I'm leaning towards the bank-breaking (atleast in my case) PC-Ultra.

Debating on what stands to get for my monitors. They are 12" tall, so I think I'll need about 30" of stand, does that sound right? Any stand suggestions?

I'm chomping at the bit to hear some tunes from this equipment sitting in front of me! :twisted:

[Nick M]

The Rack O' Goodies

Started the day off by going to work on a call in, then replacing a hard drive in my mothers computer and going through the rigamarole of reinstalling XP Home and all the endless drivers. The town my mom lives in has an absolutely phenomenal sushi bar that I visit everytime I go see her. I visit so often that the sushi chef knows me by name, and gives me all kinds of free stuff. Blew about $25, and oh was it good! I can't move I'm so full... :eating: 8O :throwup: :T

Then I visited Spearit Sound in Northampton to check out the Rotel RMB-1075 again. Had it powering some Studio 20s. I still loved its sound, and listened to some 2ch along with some Master and Commander in 5.1. Then he tells me this week only its on sale 20% OFF! :E Guess what I came home with this afternoon...
(I won't be running them stacked like this, I just like the look.)

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I'm a very happy camper. With tax it only ran me $838.95. Thats pretty good for brand spankin' new in the double-box if you ask me. Just waiting for my Ascends to come in next week sometime (hopefully). I need to pick up some speaker stands and a component rack now. Looking for suggestions from you HT experts. Stand budget is $150 or less per pair, and I'd like to stay around $300 for a small rack. Then I'm broke for a few weeks :P

While I was there, I asked him if we could do some listening to other stuff for an hour or so. Testing blind, my favorites were Thiels powered by Krell monoblocks. Worst were new B&W Nautilus powered by Conrad tube amps. I almost cried when I heard the Paradigm Signature S2s again. I might slowly upgrade to the five signature S2s. What a great little bookshelf...
Almost had a heart attack when he told me the cables used in the hifi room were "only" $2,500.00 per pair.

I'm ready to rock! ;b> opcorn:
Have to save up for a sub after I get stands and a rack.

[Dave G]

I use Wood Technology MU-30 stands with my Ascend 170s. I believe 30" is about what Ascend recommends for the 170. They've worked fine for me -- they look nice with the 170s, they're stable, they're fillable, and you can route the speaker cable down through one of the support columns and out through the base. I got them about a year ago for about $90 delivered. Try this link: http://www.hififorless.com/categori...?categoryid=696

I know that SVS and other make great subs, but I've been real happy with the Hsu sub (VTF-3 Mk2) I use with my Ascends in a 5.1 setup.

Good luck.

Dave

P.S. I've had a lot of fun following your posts on putting together a system. Keep 'em coming!

[Nick M]

Thanks Dave, I've found comments from other members very helpful in my planning process. I hope others interested in making a "bang for the buck seperates setup" get something out of it too. I just can't wait until its all hooked up and running!

Thanks for that website too, it was just the kind of place I was looking for. They nail you on the shipping, but the product prices are way below MSRP. I ordered three pairs (couldn't buy five singles) of 30" high StudioTech model SP30 all metal stands. They're hollow so you can fill them with sand, have a cable routing system and brass carpet spikes. I guess I can use the extra one as an end table or something...

Also ordered the AVIA DVD system calibration disc along with a rat-shack dB meter from SVS. Figure this way I can get the most out of everything I've bought.

Still need a component rack... gonna keep looking.

[Dave G]

I had the same reaction, Nicholas -- they DO nail you on the shipping, but the delivered price still comes out better than anything else I could find. I hope the stands work out for you.

The thing I like best about your thread is that you've kept posting throughout your search. Most of us (me included) post once or twice about particular issues and then many of us (me included) neglect to post back with the results. And you're even including pictures!! You've done it the right way. Good luck with the rest of your search.

Dave

[vaa]

Hey Nick,
Just wondering what Thiel's you listened to. I have Paradigm Studio 20's and want to upgrade. I've been looking at Thiel 1.6's, 2.4's and Tannoy TD10's. Where in Mass do you live? I'm in Mass too. Goodluck with your system.

[Kyle]

Wow, you got a good deal on that 1075 nicholas! I got mine for $900 shipped from an authorized dealer and I thought I made out

[Nick M]

Thanks for the comments Dave. Its just great to have a place to chat about HT and music with people who understand the sickness. "Hello, my name is Nick and I'm a home theater addict". Only problem is we encourage each other to go further! :B

Not sure what model Thiels I was listening to vaa, they were floorstanding with 2 or 3 drivers, one of which was white and had a huge excursion! They were in the room with $3-$5k speakers. I demod them with the 1098/1095 rotel stuff, and then with krell monoblocks and classe pre/pro. Their accuracy and soundstage depth were breathtaking. The guy who was helping me out said he used those and a 1095 in his own home setup.

EDIT:
Yeah I was watching/listening to Master & Commander when the salesman told me this week only, 20% off. My jaw practically hit the floor. $799+tax is the best I've been offered. They even keep 3 or 4 in stock, so I didn't have to wait for one to be shipped. Very pleased with the guys at spearit sound. They have a website too...
http://www.spearitsound.com. Check out the used stuff.
I live in Athol by the way.

[Nick M]

Thiel CS2.4

These are the badboys I heard at Spearit Sound.
Best speaker I've ever heard.
That white driver has like a 3" travel :rofl:
http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volum...rs-7-2003.html



Absolute clarity and soundstaging that makes you stare dumbly, puts speakers in my price-range to shame...
I want to stop talking about them, and wish I never heard them! :evil:

Maybe next year...

[vaa]

Nice. Those are the 2.4's. I may have to make a trip to hear them. They are $4400 retail. I've listened to the 1.6's and they are nice.

Have you gotten the speakers yet? What are you going to get for a Subwoofer?


I'm in Westborough BTW.

Later.

[Nick M]

Speakers

I don't have the kind of budget that can afford Thiels for 5.1 audio, so I'm going to start in the $1000-$1800 range with 5 identical monitors. I ordered 5 Ascend Acoustics CBM-170s last week to try out. Supposedly they are "Giant Slayers", but I'll find out when I get them. 30day trial, so after break-in if I don't like them I can send 'em back (have to eat shipping). They look promising from the reviews they got at audioreview.com, and I'm hoping they are neutral. I prefer a little edge like the Paradigm Studio 20s have (my choice of speaker if the CBM-170s don't work). I think the guys at Spearit Sound said the CS2.4 pair sells for just under $4k MSRP, and even less with the standard 15% discount they give. Still way out of my league.

http://www.ascendacoustics.com/pages/products/speakers/cbm170/cbm170.html

I've been buying my setup piece by piece (I refuse to make payments on anything), so I have to save up for my subwoofer now. I'm looking at different powered cylinders from SVS, and leaning towards the PC-Ultra.

http://www.svsubwoofers.com/subs_pc_ultra.htm

I hope you get the Thiels. If I was going pure 2ch rather than 5.1, they would be in my livingroom!

[Nick M]

Rotel RMB-1075

Ok, I've already auditioned this Amp alot at the dealers and know it sounds great (thats why I bought it), but now I've had it at home for awhile to really roll it around and get a good look at it. Thought I'd post a couple odd-angle shots and give my impressions.

Images not available

I'll have to be honest, and say that the build quality isn't "great" as others have commented. Other than the heat sinks and speaker connections, its built like any other walmart box. Thin sheet-metal with cheap screws and a poor black paint-job. The silver bezel in the center is hollow and capped (on top and bottom) with a couple pieces of scrap. My Outlaw 950 pre/pro has a similar build. Oddly enough, the Denon 2900 uses a thicker gauge sheet metal and has sunken screws. Looking through the vents, the layout also lacks the discreet looking layout seen in Outlaw or Anthem amps. The case also flexes when you move the amp around.

All that aside, it sounds fantastic, which is the important part. Shoved in a component rack, it also looks nice because all you can see is the heavy duty front-end (depending on your rack design of course).

Also received my Avia calibration DVD and Radio Shack dB meter. Came nice and quick from SVS. My speakers and stands should arrive on the 22nd. Can't wait! Still looking for a component rack...
Any suggestions on a $300 or less component rack guys?

Image not available

[Nick M]

Ascend Acoustics CBM-170 - Initial Impressions

Well for some reason I received one speaker today (WTF?).
The other four along with my stands should arrive tomorrow. However, this gives me the chance to have a good look at the build quality. Some pictures...

Images not available

Package was single boxed with foam corner braces. No damage. I was immediately suprised at the density of this little speaker. Cabinet is rock solid, with rounded corners and a textured black laminate of some sort. Binding posts are gold plated and of good quality. The grill is cheap (like most speaker grills I've seen), but I plan on using them without the grills anyways. The 6.5" driver has a very nice rubber surround. Actually quite impressed by it for the money. Phase plug seems to be solid using the finger tap test. Everything is secure, and there is nothing loose internally (using the shake test haha). Build quality is definetly on par with speakers such as the Studio 20. Definetly not a furniture grade appearence, but I kinda like the simplicity of it. Hopefully I'll have everything hooked up tomorrow for my initial review of how they sound, the real reason why I bought them...

So far so good though! :T

[Nick M]

Ascend 5.1

Received all my speakers and stands today. Just finished assembling everything, and I'm ready to place/hook-up/calibrate.

Also picked up a little 13" TV to display menus and what not until I have the bucks for a nice projector.

Image not available

Dropped a 100' spool of wire on my big toe. :E

[Andrew Pratt]

And how do they sound?

[willbrosk]

Dont know how you do it man. It would have driven me nuts to have one piece at a time and not be able to listen or watch something. Now I think its better this way leads to slower upgraditis, but I couldnt do it

[mtodde]

And how do they sound?

This thread is useless without the final verdict on the system. He must be too busy putting it all together or enjoying it! :rofl:

[Nick M]

Oh man, just finished positioning eveything, running wire, and initial calibration using the pre/pro setup menus. I had the Outlaw 950 volume at +10dB when the first tone went off at 11:30pm. My landlord must have soiled his sheets upstairs. I inhaled a cheez-it and almost passed out. :E

Couldn't turn it up too much this late, so it will have to wait until tomorrow.

[mtodde]

Oh man, just finished positioning eveything, running wire, and initial calibration using the pre/pro setup menus. I had the Outlaw 950 volume at +10dB when the first tone went off at 11:30pm. My landlord must have soiled his sheets upstairs. I inhaled a cheez-it and almost passed out. :E

Couldn't turn it up too much this late, so it will have to wait until tomorrow.

LMFAO! :rofl: I know you'll be excited. I'd take the day off from work! Congrats. It has been nice following your thread. I've been going through a similar quandry about what to buy & how much to spend.

[Nick M]

Oh man, I love it! Makes my old PC setup seem like a HT-in-a-box. There is so much more definition and clarity in the music and soundtracks. I can also easily recognize poor DD5.1 mixing from good mixing.

Using the AVIA Disc, I got all the outputs for my five monitors within 1dB of each other from my sweetspot. Calibrated them to 85dB of output at the -20dB setting on my Outlaw 950. Using the sine wave output tone, I found the Ascends had an audible low frequency extension of 55Hz in my room. Thats pretty good when the reported anechoic response bottoms out at 69Hz.

Even though the Ascends aren't fully broken in yet, I'll give you guys an initial review of how they sound. The mid-bass/midrange is absolutely spectacular! The piano in "Rhapsody In Blue" from Fantasia 2000 sounds near perfect. I hope that tight accuracy doesn't burn off as it breaks in. I love it. The tweeter sounds very neutral as advertised. Combined with the accuracy of the midrange, the speakers sound great. Drums hit without any warmth or fuzzy decay. Can't emphasize enough how clear the midrange is. I think I ultimately prefer the edgy sound of metallic tweeters, but the neutral accuracy of these speakers so far is winning my heart.

I'm not sure how much of what I'm about to say is due to my equipment or the fact that I'm using five identical monitors placed in a semi-circle around me, but the soundstaging gives me a stupid grin. Closing my eyes and listening to Master and Commander in DTS almost made me lose my balance with the sounds of the ocean swelling back and forth. The use of the surrounds in Little Nemo is even further defined to my ears now. I think the AVIA calibration is an absolute must in acheiving a perfect soundstage. The gentle panning of the soundtrack like the sway of the anemone from the front mains to the surrounds and back is spectacular. I never noticed that subtle effect with my old setup.

Now that I'm unemployed ( :B ) I even spent time calibrating my 13" tv with the AVIA disc and filters. It makes a huge difference over playing it by eye. I'd have to say that of anything I've bought so far, the AVIA/dB Meter combo was the best money I spent.

Can't wait to get a sub to integrate with the Ascends. I'm taking a few weeks off before getting a new job, so I'll probably be calling SVS in late March/Early April. More to come as the Ascends break in!

I should also note that low frequency response isn't flat, probably due to my room. I think an equalizer between my pre/pro and future sub will be a necessity for good DVD-A and SACD. I can see how a pre/pro like the Anthem AVM30 could make the experience even better.

[Nick M]

I've found that running the center 2dB hot helps with making dialogue more intelligible when listening at volumes below reference. I also prefer the slightly forward nature this gives the center soundstage. Just enough to give the center onscreen action a little emphasis without ruining panorama effects.

I'm burning through my DVD collection re-listening to all my favorite scenes!

This is AWESOME!!! :-y

[Andrew Pratt]

Some how I figured that's what you'd say

I'd actually venture to say that virtually EVERYONE would benefit from a BFD before the subwoofer.

[mtodde]

Some how I figured that's what you'd say

I'd actually venture to say that virtually EVERYONE would benefit from a BFD before the subwoofer.

BFD? Please forgive my ignorance. :lol:

[Chuck G]

BFD= Behringer Feedback Destroyer....capable of removing dips and peaks in frequency response.

[Nick M]

Hey Andrew, I'm not sure I understand about the feedback. I thought feedback was sound from the speakers entering a microphone and being reamplified. I wasn't aware there was feedback in HT. Please explain.

Also, do you have any equalizers you could suggest to use between my pre/pro and sub? Behringer has a bazillion choices.

[Andrew Pratt]

The BFD we talk about is the Behringer Feedback Destroyer and you're right it was designed to be used to filter out true feedback in pro environments...where it comes for us though is that its also a 12 band parametric EQ that you can use between your pre pro and the subwoofer to remove peaks and nulls in your response. If you goto my website under the DIY area there's a graph of my subs response before and after the BFD was put inline as well as links to Sonnies BFD site which is the place to go to read up on the unit...they're reasonably priced as well at ~$120 USD

[Nick M]

Oh ok I see, you just use it for the EQ section. Thats what I kinda assumed unless we have some karaoke fans here :B

[Nick M]

I've been thinking about trying a HSU VTF-3 MK2. From the professional and consumer reviews I've been reading, it is tighter than the SVS PCi series in the 40-80Hz range. Its also the subwoofer Ascend Acoustics recommends to integrate with their (my) speakers.

Real confused on this one, but I have 5 or 6 weeks to figure it out before I have the cash.

I've noticed some slight changes in the ascends as they've broken in. I'll give an unofficial-official review tomorrow

[Nick M]

Ascend Acoustics CBM-170 Review

I've spent the past four days listening to the Ascend Acoustics CBM-170s and feel I can give a review on them. I'd say that I have about 48hrs on them (pretty much became a hermit the past week) listening to two channel redbooks, DD5.1, and DTS5.1.

I received one speaker single-boxed, while the other four came double-boxed in pairs. They were all packaged well, and no damage was found. The first thing I noticed when picking these small speakers up was their density. The cabinet really is rock-solid, and I can't detect any noises interjected into the sound by it. The exterior of the cabinet is quite plain looking. A black box with a flat textured finish. Personally I like the simplicity of it. If you're looking for Rosewood with pewter inlays, this isn't your speaker. From my height and seating position, I found that 30" stands place the tweeter at ear level. The StudioTech SP-30 steel stands have a similar design and finish to the CBM-170s at a reasonable price.

The front left and right speakers are angled directly at my seating position, while the surrounds are to my sides. As I said before, all of the speakers are at the same height, with the tweeters at ear level. Output was calibrated using the AVIA calibration DVD along with a Rat Shack SPL meter. I managed to get all channels calibrated within 1dB of each other from my seating position. I don't have a sub yet, so all speakers were set as Large. I found the audible low frequency extension in my room to be 55Hz, pretty good compared with the specs given by Ascend.

I started off with Master and Commander in 5.1 DTS. Immediately I was impressed with the seamless soundstage. The depth and ambiance was fantastic. The speakers dissapeared, and the walls of my room fell away. I was surrounded by the roaring ocean. Now I've come to believe through experimentation that the most important part of creating these effects are speaker placement and calibration. However, you have to have a good source, clear processing/amplification, and speakers that have quiet cabinets with a tone you like. Poorly mixed 5.1 tracks easily destroy this effect, and you feel like you're listening to speakers again. Some films even have scenes with good sound spaced with scenes with poor sound. This actually becomes distracting as the soundstage expands and contracts. I was dissapointed to find one of my favorite films Ronin does this in some scenes.

After letting the speakers break in, I'm still impressed with the midbass and midrange. It is some of the clearest, accurate sound I've ever heard. My other speaker consideration, the Paradigm Studio 20 isn't nearly as good in this area. On the tweeter end, I honestly have to say that I prefer the Studio 20's, but the difference in quality between the upper range is small compared to the difference in quality of the midrange. Even if the price were equal, I would still take the Ascends for the midbass/midrange. Drums, pianos, doors, and footsteps sound so real its incredible. Sometimes when someone knocks on a door I have to pause the film to make sure I don't have company waiting on the front porch, especially when its an offscreen sound effect that I didn't see an actor do. Fantastic!

In two channel recordings, I notice a huge difference in quality between older recordings and new. I also found that some of my artist compilation albums I've picked up in the checkout aisles have very poor transfers (which erks me). Listening to Hell Freezes Over, I had to get up and make sure the center channel was off because the imaging was so good. This effect carries over into 5 channel audio to create incredible panning effects of bullets and other objects that move across the room. While watching Little Nemo, I noticed for the first time during some scenes that the soundtrack pans back and forth between the fronts and surrounds. The effect is subtle, but gives you a floating sensation which adds greatly to the films feel. Little Nemo definetly has my favorite sound mix to date. I haven't gotten any DVD-A or SACD discs yet, but I have nothing but high expectations for them. I definetly need a sub because some instruments bottom out below what the 170s can produce. This affects the realism when it comes to critical listening in two channel.

I'm quite happy with the Ascends, and have no intentions of sending them back. I think the next step for me would be Thiels, but at their price point ($3000/pr) I'm quite satisfied with my 170s for the time being. Two thumbs up! :T :T

Info on the Ascend Acoustics CBM-170 if you're curious...

http://www.ascendacoustics.com/pages/products/speakers/cbm170/cbm170.html

My Equipment:
Outlaw Audio Model 950 Pre/Pro
Rotel RMB-1075 Amplifier
Denon DVD-2900 DVD-A/SACD Player
5x Ascend Acoustics CBM-170 Monitors

[Nick M]

I had to dig a couple pages down to revive this thread about my HT progress! :B

SVS PB10-ISD

I've pretty much given up on the discussion forums for getting info on these subs... :roll: The HSU/SVS war is being fought tooth & nail!

I'm attracted to the Hsu VTF3-MKII because of its depth of frequency response and reported clarity. Ideally I would listen to it, but I'm kind of swinging at a pinata blindfolded here with a million people telling me "Left!" and others screaming "Right!". Keeping with my price/performance guidelines I've been building my HT with, the PB10-ISD appears to have a similar depth to its response capability along with extraordinary distortion numbers and flat response curve tested by "Secrets". I know right off the bat that it can't fill a huge room like the VTF3-MKII, and it's maximum SPL level will be lower, but I'm not trying to fill a stadium with my small/medium enclosed room, and I'm in an apartment so it will probably be kept around 75-85dB anyhow. My hopes are to touch infrasonic pipe organ notes and have clean tight bass up to the crossover point with my CBM-170s at reasonable SPLs. The VTF3-MKII seems like the only sub by HSU that can play in the infrasonic range but is $275 more than the PB10-ISD shipped. I think I'm going to give the PB10-ISD a try. If it's loose in the 30-70Hz range or heavily distorted in the 17-25Hz range I'll kick it back to 'em. I'm confident the HSU could do the job (based on reviews that is), but I'd hate to find that the SVS could do what I'm looking for at almost $300 less.

Just a summation of my recent thoughts... :unsure: :tired:

EDIT: Here is a link to a review on the PB10-ISD...
http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volum...r-10-2004.html

[Andrew Pratt]

That unit did very well in a review on HTF a few months ago against some similar priced contenders (no HSU though) and it does go deep :T

As an alternative solution consider this...

Box

Amp

Driver

Total cost is about $350 so you've got some room for shipping and maybe to buy a router or jig saw to cut the driver hole.

If you wanted to make it even easier just get the Titanic cabinate instead that has the holes already cut out. Add the Titanic 12" driver and use the same plate amp above and you'd really have a nice sub that would walk all over most of the one's anywhere near this price point. The Titanic route is slighly above your SVS budget but it would be more inline with their Ultra models. The 15" DVC driver would be around the same SPL output as well given its larger diameter....either way you wouldn't be left wanting for bass If you can't swing the Titanic but wanted the Titanic box the 12" DVC driver would work in that box as well. It wouldn't be as good as the Titanic but it would still compare fairly well with the SVS ISD driver I think. Both of these would obviously be sealed sub's but they'll still reach down very deep and won't bottom out with that plate amp...plus you can be proud of something you've built :T If this is something you would actually consider start a thread in the DIY area and have the guru's there comment on the various options. There are other drivers around that you could use as well from Adire and Ascendant that may or may not be cheaper.

[Nick M]

I'm kind of nervous about pumping cash into something I'm not sure I'll like with no return policy... :B

After reading those reviews you pointed out, I'm now wondering about a lack of responsiveness causing drawn out decay in the upper ranges. If this turns out to be true, I'm worried how those swift double-bass' note stop/changes will sound on the Diana Krall DVD-A I just ordered.

I'm going to order one tomorrow morning. I have to go to some job interviews on Thursday & Friday, so hopefully if this sub meets my needs I will be saving for some sort of display next... :demon:

If not (), I'll get to eat a nice shipping charge and pout... :P
Oh wait, then theres the issue of an EQ for my sub (depending on how bad my room is).

[Andrew Pratt]

Well if group delay is a concern the sealed designs offer the lowest GD by a big margin and are always thought of been the most musical sounding subs. As for likeing the sound there's no way you wouldn't given how many people have gone down that path before you...I'd venture to say way more people have built sealed subs using those drivers then have bought the SVS sub.

[Nick M]

This has to be the hardest decision I've made so far. Every other category seemed to have a bargain that fell into place. I guess I'm sniffing around for one of those "diamonds in the rough" in the subwoofer category.

I crossed my fingers and ordered a PB10-ISD in black this morning.
I guess at the very least others will get an informal review of it from me... :B

[Nick M]

Received the SVS PB10-ISD today. UPS guy almost busted a nut getting it off the truck (75lbs). Nice and double boxed, and protected by foam corner braces. Only setup problem was getting the bass management set for DVD-A/SACD. The Denon DVD-2900's LFE channel is 15dB down for DVD-A/SACD (for some unknown reason... the manual even states it will do this). Level control is limited to -10dB to 0dB. So I adjusted the five main channels to -10dB which got me within 5dB. I got the sub matched with the mains by boosting it 5dB with the Outlaw pre/pro's analog volume control. Unfortunately this means when I use the 2900s digital out to the 950, I have to cut that 5db boost on the 950 or the sub will run hot for movies. But I did it this way so I never have to screw with the gain knob on the sub. Gain is set at a hair over 60% by the way. I'll have to wait for a friend to come over before I can properly set phase and then do a full FR measurement.

Haven't really got a chance to open it up, but I did verify a solid 20Hz with AVIA. More to come tomorrow...

Although I lent my camera out, I do have my miniDV sony which will take 1 megapixel shots. I'll have some pics tomorrow.

[Nick M]

Hmmmmm... mixed results.

First off, here are some pictures...
I loaned out my nice camera, so these are taken with my miniDV camcorder...

Images not available

Initial Impressions.

After working most of the bugs out last night, I used AVIA to get the phase set. I also re-verified the fact that this sub hits a solid 20Hz, pretty impressive for such a "little" tyke. The enclosure is actually bigger than 90% of the enclosures at my local hifi store

The finish is pretty nice on it, with good seams, even better than the Ascend CBM-170s in my setup. In fact, the texture is almost identical to the Ascends. The RCA input on the back seems a bit small in diameter. My interconnect has a screw down compression collar that gives a white knuckle grip on my components, but even fully screwed down the connection on the SVS can still be rotated. The knobs for gain/phase are proper size and have a nice resistance to their movement.

My first movie had to be the DTS track on Master and Commander. Infamous "Chapter 4" has some good bass. I found that while the sub certainly captured the cannonfire, it was more like being punched by a boxing glove than a bare fist. It seemed to handle single cannonfire alone quite well, but when things got down and dirty with multiple cannons and the ship falling apart it fell into a slight rumble. The chest thumping impact was lost, and a room rumbling hum took over. I could still make out the individual cannon shots, but they were blended with the other impacts and seemed to lose their punch.

Next was Pod Racing, Episode I. I experienced similar things here. At 59:40 where they zoom in on the pod racer engines, the low-frequency drone blends perfectly with the higher frequency whine. The individual flybys also sounded good. But during complex bass scenes such as when the racer falls victim to sebulba at 64:06, the initial clarity falls into mushy rumble as the scene develops.

Lord of the Rings: FOTR. When Sauron's finger hits the ground at the beginning of the film, the PB10-ISD has no trouble capturing the impact, but it was more like being hit with a pillow than a fist. Still better than most subs I've heard that cost much more.

Lord of the Rings: ROTK. Frodos heart-beat in Mt. Doom was there in all its glory, but it was definetly loose. It also lacked the devastating impact like Saurons finger impact did in LOTR. The oliphant collision had similar results.

Onto some DVD-A/SACD...

Telarc's SACD Classical Sampler #2. Rondeau from Abdelazer with the Empire Brass Quartet and a Pipe Organ sounded great. The organ was very well fleshed out and I ended up repeating it 4 times I loved it so much. Beethoven's Symphony #9 by The Atlanta Symphony Orchestra/Chorus had good solo percussion hits, but when everything rolled together harmony became bass chaos. Just one loud rumble. Very dissapointed on this one.

Diana Krall: Love Scenes (DVD-A). Individual bass chords sounded a little too warm but were set aside as the real focus is Diana. Soon I grew used to it and didn't notice as much. Unfortunately during some fast sections the bass got congested and I lost that immersed feeling.

Sting: Brand New Day (DVD-A). There is alot of bass on this disc. This is when I first noticed the PB10 actually drawing attention to itself. On track one "A Thousand Years", I actually spent 4hrs trying 3 different spots in my room for the sub (and recalibrated every time ), but I could still pick out the sub. I also tried running the sub at -3dB which helped a little, but still made the track all but un-listenable. Desert Rose was better, but also didn't have the same amount of bass.

More Thoughts
Compared to anything under $1000 I heard at my local shops, nothing can touch the PB10. It's extension is incredible for the price. During 90% of the films I watched, I was also happy with it. Its performance with pipe organs is also absolutely incredible. My enjoyment with it during DVD-A/SACD was less than satisfying unfortunately. The few annoying quirks it had during movies became magnified when all my attention was paid to the higher-rez audio. Fast heavy bass lacked clarity and impact. During real heavy bass playback, the PB10 also drew attention to itself regardless of location/level. It definetly has the capability to shake my room, but I'm looking for more than that.

I'm pretty critical of things, especially when I dole out hundreds of dollars for them. Often enough when I'm satisfied with things they go unsaid while I pick-apart other issues. The PB10-ISD is a good sub, but I was looking for a low-cost solution to my needs which apparently aren't going to be fulfilled with $475. I'm going to keep it a bit longer to see if I missed something, but I'm not leaning towards keeping it.

[Andrew Pratt]

Nick I still think a larger driver in a sealed box is going to be what you'll end up wanting.

[gd]

I agree with Andrew... but I still wouldn't dismiss the cylinders out of hand, either... in any event, I suspected you'd need a little more firepower... but that's a valiant effort to break the < $500 barrier.

After you do some more tinkering -- including repositioning -- launch some e-mail to SVS, and include your room dimensions (haven't read backwards here in a while, but I seem to remember your room not being particularly easy)... they're great at resolving in-room situations, even without being there.

[Nick M]

Fired a copy of this post I made at AVS forums to Ron Stimpson at SVS...

Here is a simple room plot I made with psp.

Image not available

I forgot to include that my ceilings are 8.5'.

There are three main issues I have.

1. Peak impact of quick blows such as cannonfire/and the sauron finger drop. You can feel it thump you, but I want it to hit me like I've experienced with some of the more expensive subs in hifi shops. Equally important, I want it to be a sharp & clean hit.
2. I'm getting congested rumbling during heavy, dynamic bass pieces. When this occurs I also have problems with the sub standing out in my room and drawing attention to itself.
3. While the extension is great for this price, I was expecting a little more presence in the infrasonics. With the Rondeau from Abdelazer Telarc organ/brass piece, the PB10 really brings the pipe organ to life, but it just doesn't have the ultra-lows you feel in your core that I've experienced before. Not the stuff you hear pressing your ear drums in, but the bass that seems to begin inside you. The PB10 only seems to flirt with these frequencies rather than dish them out with authority.

The sub has been calibrated via Avia & the RS SPL for DD/DTS +/-1dB of the 5 main channels using the provided pink noise, and phase has also been optimised using the provided tests. For DVD-A/SACD, I used the Denon 2900s analog output test tone setup to again achieve +/- 1dB using the provided pink noise. I've also tried adjusting these calibrations +/- 5dB in attempts to either increase the peak impacts, or decrease bass rumbling. I've also attempted 3 sub positions calibrating the sub after and achieving the same results.

Suggestions welcomed from anyone/everyone!
PS Ron> I shot you a copy of this via eMail along with the image.

Andrew, what type of sealed sub do you recommend that can really dish out infrasonics?

[Andrew Pratt]

What's your budget...ie can we sneak up over what you paid for the SVS? If you are truely interested start a thread in the DIY area and we'll help you get what you need

[Nick M]

Ok Andrew I'll head over there and start a thread.

[Nick M]

Here is my hand drawn FR graph. Its not exponentially compressed either. All of my readings were adjusted using the RS SPL meter table SVS provided. Plenty of Peaks/Nulls.

I wasn't feeling that inaudible bone marrow/soul moving sensation at the sub 20Hz infrasonics. You could feel it a tiny bit, but it wasn't anything powerful and dropped off quickly with each step down in frequency.

Image not available

You might need glasses for this one

EDIT: The link works off and on. My ISP sucks (verizon). :M