M8ta - Listening Impressions??

[ColoradoTom]

Pass Amps.....:drool:

But Hey! When are you going to stop being such a piker and step up to the plate for some Boulder 2050 Mono blocks? ...... :wedgie:

Good GOD!!

Those Boulder amps are massive - 332 lbs shipping weight!! I can't imagine how pissed off my UPS guy would be with those - when the three 150 lbs Pass boxes came he wasn't too happy at all :rofl: Getting them into my basement and lifting them into thier final position without any help pretty much sucked. It was worth the effort - they are making SWEET music right now as I'm typing. Those Kimber discs are really well recorded!

Speaking of massive - during glue-up of one of the M8ta's I dropped the speaker on my left hand from a height of about 8 inches. ops: I spent the next two hours icing my hand wondering if I had broken two of my fingers. I won't be making THAT mistake again!

Tom

[ThomasW]

I can't imagine how pissed off my UPS guy would be with those - when the three 150 lbs Pass boxes came he wasn't too happy at all

UPS doesn't need to worry, with the Boulder amps we're talking big-rig freight delivery. So buy a forklift along with the Boulder amps. (the forklift expense will seen cheap in comparison.... :rofl: )

Those Kimber discs are really well recorded!

Yes the recordings are amazing. The sample cut titled "The Janitor" is a riot, IMO.

It would be heaven to have that recording quality of bigtime professional performances. I might just pop for the Stereophile Iso-Mike Piano disc.....

I dropped the speaker on my left hand from a height of about 8 inches. ops: I spent the next two hours icing my hand wondering if I had broken two of my fingers. I won't be making THAT mistake again!

Let's see....

To Tom H.

Re: the M8ta cabinets.

Please note these cabinets are quite heavy, the design team recommends you do not drop them on anything.....

Glad to hear you didn't break anything.... :T

[oxcartdriver]

Tom we had swapped emails on the Mt8a earlier this year. Which Inductors did you go with for your Mt8a Low pass x-over implementation? Did you use an audiocap or other cap on the tweeter? I'm curious what you think of the sound once fired up. I've used the dayton drivers in all my projects to date and would like to hear your impression of the excel tweeter.

I choose to start with several of the simplier projects first. My wood working skills needed (and still need) some brushing up prior to tackling the Mt8a.

[JonW]

Veneering underway and almost completed.

Tom-
Those really look super! :T You workmanship is *very* impressive. :T (Sorry about the hand, though.)

And don't listen to Thomas about the Boulder amps. He's just trying to bankrupt you. :P I'm sure your Pass amps will be fine to start with.

[ThomasW]

I'm sure your Pass amps will be fine to start with.

Starter amps? His 'starter' amps are from Krell and Conrad-Johnson. He saw the cool blue LED dials on the Pass Labs and fell in love. They are pretty neat, (color me jealous). And since the Pass run only pure Class "A", he doesn't need to turn on the furnace in winter AND can use them heat the wok for stir-fry whenever the mood strikes ... :B

[JonW]

I see. That's a nice progression (ahem). Those Pass amps should last him at least a little while.

He saw the cool blue LED dials on the Pass Labs and fell in love.

I got to hear a pair of McIntosh 501 monoblocks once. Talk about power. (500 W, I think) And the coolest looking amps with their version of a blue glow. My gal still talks about them and asks when we can get some. I tell her as soon as she gets a second job.

[ColoradoTom]

Oxcartdriver - I'm using Solen caps bypassed with Kimbers in critical areas and the inductors are Perfect Lay's. BTW in trying to keep crosstalk between inductors low it makes the crossovers damn large - the layout I've got right now is ~10 inches wide by ~20 inches long and ~4 inches high.

ThomasW, does this sound reasonable to have the crossovers be so large?? If I remember correctly the original Eclipse design had a rather large external crossover so I'm probably not too far off!!

The Pass amps are replacing Krell MDA-300's. I may move the Krells into service running the bass panels that ThomasW has suggested. I've had the Krells for 10 years - don't think I'll be lookin' for amps for a while. :B

Tom

[Evil Twin]

The Ascent and Eclipse had external crossovers, the three way for the Ascent was 55 lb each! And they used Hepta-Litz Perfect Lay coils, Solen caps, and very nice construction.

The current crossovers are normally inside, and, well, they're not as nice. That doesn't mean they're not good enough, but ah, I'll reserve judgement on that.







Conventional sand cast resistors were never used in the older models.

[ThomasW]

the layout I've got right now is ~10 inches wide by ~20 inches long and ~4 inches high.

ThomasW, does this sound reasonable to have the crossovers be so large?? If I remember correctly the original Eclipse design had a rather large external crossover so I'm probably not too far off

It all the components are on a single board yep that sounds about right.

[ColoradoTom]

It all the components are on a single board yep that sounds about right.

Well... I'll try to get an photo of my layout tomorrow between turkey and nap time. Does it make any sense to allow for passive biamping?? With all these spare amps around my wife is going to make me sell them if I can't find a use for them.

Tom

[ThomasW]

Having the crossover sections separate makes troubleshooting easier. I'm not sure passive bi-amping this speaker makes much sense....

[Evil Twin]

Could make sense with amps with matched gains or input level controls, but mainly I'd guess if you wanted to have a real "tight" solid state design on the woofer and a non-feedback or vacuum state amp on the tweeter...

[ColoradoTom]

Crossover Initial Layout

Here's my current layout for the high and low pass crossover for the M8ta. The length of the components is about 20". This is just a general layout to get a rough placement and to start thinking of a suitable enclosure.

Tom

[ThomasW]

Layout looks OK. You can stack caps to tighten up things. All the components on the right side can slide to the left a little, starting with the horizontal inductor at the bottom of the picture.

[jdybnis]

I heard a pair of Ascents with the outboard crossovers last week. I was very impressed. They were incredibly coherent. I would not have guessed they were three ways without seeing them.

[ThomasW]

I heard a pair of Ascents with the outboard crossovers last week. I was very impressed. They were incredibly coherent. I would not have guessed they were three ways without seeing them.

That echos my experiences with them as well. The crossover is 'invisible' as it should be in any well designed speaker

[ColoradoTom]

Unexpected problem with M8ta

So.... I go out to the garage/workshop this afternoon to work on the crossovers and I hear this wierd sound. Sort of a muffled scratching sound. "What the heck is that", says I. :E Well, this is the time of the year that all of the local field mice make their annual trek into my humble abode and I guess one of them thought that the M8ta made for a classy bedroom. Unfortunatly the walls/bracing of the speaker are so good that it really didn't bother him/her much when I knocked on the sides. Smell of peanut butter in the snap trap worked MUCH better! :rofl: I'm amazed the little bugger could make it up the sides of the port.

Geeze... I just had a thought, you don't think this could have been a spy sent by the Empire do you!!

ColoradoTom

[ThomasW]

Too funny.... :B

When my cats were kittens, they liked to play in the AS-15 port. Now that their older and a bit more plump, that's not an option....

Geeze... I just had a thought, you don't think this could have been a spy sent by the Empire do you!!
ColoradoTom

According to "The Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy", mice effectively control much of what happens in our galaxy. So be careful what you do to and with them.... :E

[ColoradoTom]

Crossovers

Hi Guys......

Probably not the most visually exciting part of the design (I think I'm a better woodworker than electronic assembler). Anyway, one set built - one to go. Should have a listening impression this weekend. :P

PS - Working with hot glue should be done in an environment where people cannot come up behind you and scare the crap out of you!! I put these together in my audio room and just as I was putting glue onto one of the coils my daughter came up behind me and I jumped.... by the time I got the glue off my finger it had pretty much burned through several layers of skin all of which came off when I placed my hand under cold running water. 8O Building these speakers seems to invite personal harm!!

[JonMarsh]

Ouch! I feel for you, having dropped (just a short distance) an X1 bass bin on my big toe, took almost a year to heal. Hot glue is something I take for granted, but take carefully- especially with the big B&D gun I have, it's VERY hot!

Hope you heal quickly.

~Jon

[ColoradoTom]

Ouch!!!!!

Had to change bandages.... a visual warning to say focused when working with ANY tool.

[TacoD]

That's why I use hot glue which is not hot enough... cheap $5 glue gun which barely melts the glue. I didn't know it's that dangerous -> good gloves.

[dyazdani]

One thing you can do if you drop hot glue on a finger is to quickly spread it around, allowing it to cool much faster. Of course, if you're to slow, or the glue is simply too hot, you can end up burning more skin area - should be less severe though.

[ThomasW]

Ouch!

Been there, done that, not the least bit interested in doing that again....

And to add insult to injury are you right handed?

[ColoradoTom]

Ouch!

Been there, done that, not the least bit interested in doing that again....

And to add insult to injury are you right handed?

Actually, it's a picture of my left ring finger - the same one that I dropped the speaker on a few weeks ago! :E I'm hoping that I won't be doing either of my "accidents" again.

I'm pretty sure my daughter won't be sneaking up on me in the near future. The look of horror on her face when she saw the blood running down my hand has probably reduced any chances of her becomming a second DIY speaker builder in the family as well!

Tom

[ThomasW]

I remember well my first and only major burn from hot glue. That never happened again...Sometimes once is enough...:wink:

BTW the burn from hot glue is worse than that from welding slag. Since the slag is so much hotter (5000-10,000 degrees), it wipes out the nerves instantly.

[kingpin]

A friend of mine just before Christmas one year was working with hot glue.
He was curious if the glue had any odour to it, so he held the hot glue gun up to his nose.
He couldn't smell much of anything so he pressed the trigger to release some glue.

You guessed it.

He ended up squeezing out about the size of a dime on the tip of his nose.
Let's just say we called him "rudolph" for a long time.

BTW: He said there was not much odor to the glue.

Mike

[ColoradoTom]

Question finally answered

So.... about 8 months ago I asked the question "What do these M8ta's sound like". Last night I finally got my answer.

I've been holding off listening until I could get the front felt grills made so that I could do a "real world" listening - I wanted my first listening impressions to be as accurate as possible. In the picture you can see that I only have the base veneer on the sides, back and top and the front felt grill doesn't have the grill cloth attached.

I have to admit that I decided to give the speakers a listen before I committed to any further work. This project has been a difficult but enjoyable journey and I needed to convince myself that it was going to be worth the additional time and effort required to put on as professional a finish as possible. If the speakers turned out not to sound as good as expected I was going to finish them off with truck bed liner and banish them to doing surround duty in my HT room.

The speakers sound wonderful!! I have them set up according to the method found at the Cardas site and I must say that they sound better than I though they would. They easily compete with my pair of Dunlavy SC-IVa's in every area except in ultimate volume. In the mids and highs they are smoother and more refined than the Dunlavys. Like my Sound Lab M1's they completely disappear - you do not have any impression that sound is originating from the speakers themselves.

I'm using a Theta Miles connected to a Bryston 4B ST as a quick test setup, but will be trying my Esoteric SA-60 with the Pass amps and later KT88 fitted Quicksilver M135's this weekend (hopefully Evil Twin will not be to upset with me using TUBES).

I have REALLY got to thank JonMarsh and ThomasW as I couldn't be happier. I am tempted to go all out and build three more M8ta's as a highend 5.1 system............

I'll post pictures when I complete the veneering/finishing process.


ColoradoTom (a very satisfied DIYer)

[ThomasW]

Hey! Congratulations..... :T :B

ET doesn't mind high-quality tube gear, but he's not a fan of minimalistic SET stuff....

Yes they would make an interesting 5.1 system if one didn't need high SPLs.

And BTW for future projects, we need to have a litte chat about upgrading your camera...... :W

[chasw98]

You look at the room Tom has. You look at the instruments, you look at the amps, you look at the speakers he is building and YOU (you curmudgeon) b*tch about the camera! Man, this is tough Great work Tom and I am very jealous of those PASS amps you got.

Chuck

[Evil Twin]

So.... about 8 months ago I asked the question "What do these M8ta's sound like". Last night I finally got my answer.

I've been holding off listening until I could get the front felt grills made so that I could do a "real world" listening - I wanted my first listening impressions to be as accurate as possible. In the picture you can see that I only have the base veneer on the sides, back and top and the front felt grill doesn't have the grill cloth attached.

I have to admit that I decided to give the speakers a listen before I committed to any further work. This project has been a difficult but enjoyable journey and I needed to convince myself that it was going to be worth the additional time and effort required to put on as professional a finish as possible. If the speakers turned out not to sound as good as expected I was going to finish them off with truck bed liner and banish them to doing surround duty in my HT room.

The speakers sound wonderful!! I have them set up according to the method found at the Cardas site and I must say that they sound better than I though they would. They easily compete with my pair of Dunlavy SC-IVa's in every area except in ultimate volume. In the mids and highs they are smoother and more refined than the Dunlavys. Like my Sound Lab M1's they completely disappear - you do not have any impression that sound is originating from the speakers themselves.

I'm using a Theta Miles connected to a Bryston 4B ST as a quick test setup, but will be trying my Esoteric SA-60 with the Pass amps and later KT88 fitted Quicksilver M135's this weekend (hopefully Evil Twin will not be to upset with me using TUBES).

I have REALLY got to thank Jon and ThomasW as I couldn't be happier. I am tempted to go all out and build three more M8ta's as a highend 5.1 system............

I'll post pictures when I complete the veneering/finishing process.


ColoradoTom (a very satisfied DIYer)

Your lack of faith is disturbing, but can be excused considering all the ridiculous claims made for products actually sold on the Internet. You can hardly be faulted for questioning something given away for free...

I am most pleased that you took the trouble to use the Cardas setup guides, as this IS the recommended configuration for this configuration of monople speaker.

As long as you use a vacuum state amplifer strong in the Force (lowish output impedance), you should be quite satisfied with the results.

Note that "points" are used to provide a triangulated coupling to the floor and raise the base of the speaker another inch - inch and a half to allow the port to "breathe" (think red wine).

Congratulations, Tom, you are graduating from being merely a Padawan learner in speaker building. :T

[ColoradoTom]

Well...... to the "curmudgeon in training"

Since there is a limit on the size of an upload I've been ripping out pixels to get the photos to the proper size. Camera rig is a Minolta Maxxum 7D with a Minolta wide angle lens for that particular shot. :W If I was able to upload the original shot you could tell that I hadn't dusted the Martin D42 in a couple of weeks and you'd see the small blood smear on the right crossover board where I "hot glued" myself. :rofl:

Chuck, thanks for the kind words... been working/saving for a long time to get where I am, but really have WAY too much audio stuff. ops: Of couse, I can't find a way to get rid of anything when something new comes along and at this point I could probably open a highend used audio store and fully stock it. :B

Evil Twin - Sorry about the lack of faith, but you summed it up perfectly - there are WAY too many claims with little substance behind them on the Net. Please accept my apology and my pledge of support to the Empire. Ironically, the speaker cones arrived from Parts Express about an hour after that picture was taken and the M8ta's are breathing just fine now.

Anybody even thinking of building these speakers should just do it... do it NOW! :twisted:

ColoradoTom

[ThomasW]

Well...... to the "curmudgeon in training"

Since there is a limit on the size of an upload I've been ripping out pixels to get the photos to the proper size. Camera rig is a Minolta Maxxum 7D with a Minolta wide angle lens for that particular shot. :W If I was able to upload the original shot you could tell that I hadn't dusted the Martin D42 in a couple of weeks and you'd see the small blood smear on the right crossover board where I "hot glued" myself. :rofl:

Oh OK, I thought you were using the camera in your cell phone... :W

BTW, the attachment size limit is ~100k so you don't need to shrink the image down quite so small

[chasw98]

Oh OK, I thought you were using the camera in your cell phone... :W

OK, you're forgiven :B

[ColoradoTom]

Oh OK, I thought you were using the camera in your cell phone... :W

Great timing Thomas!! Read this just as I took a big sip of my morning java and I laughed so hard I've now got coffee dripping out my nose!! :x

ColoradoTom

[JonMarsh]

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:


I know the problem-- it's tough downrezzing enough and maintaining a decent image size, and hitting that 100 K barrier.

When you finish them up, and take pics, send me some high res versions by email, and I'll set them up to a good size and res and upload them to my hosting service, and provide you with links for posting. I use Virtual Avenue and my .MAC account for this stuff- might even get a speaker building website finally up next year (I have a lot of out layed out, just haven't had time to put the content together for the pages yet).

[ColoradoTom]

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:


I know the problem-- it's tough downrezzing enough and maintaining a decent image size, and hitting that 100 K barrier.

When you finish them up, and take pics, send me some high res versions by email, and I'll set them up to a good size and res and upload them to my hosting service, and provide you with links for posting. I use Virtual Avenue and my .MAC account for this stuff- might even get a speaker building website finally up next year (I have a lot of out layed out, just haven't had time to put the content together for the pages yet).

Will do..... don't know if this makes sense to you but if you'd like I can consolidate all the info I accumulated on the build and design into a document that can be given out to people. I know I had to pull together a lot of info from various sources to fully understand what I was getting into as well as all the various components (cabinet/drivers/crossover)..... just looking to make it to Jedi Knight status!!! :B

BTW - now that these are getting finished that Isis clone is looking a lot more interesting!!

ColoradoTom

[ColoradoTom]

Things to do during a blizzard!!

Not too much to do but veneer, drink, and take pictures. Everything veneered except for the fronts. All sides are bookmatched Santos Rosewood..... I might have the veneering done before Xmas, although the numerous parties I'm attending are taking up a lot of my time. Would post a picture of the 5 foot drifts outside my house but it's snowing too hard!! 8O

ColoradoTom

PS - Sent ThomasW high res pictures so he wouldn't make fun of me!! :rofl:

[ssabripo]

nice freaagin' work Tom!!! :T

that Santos Rosewood looks superb!! Did you buy a specific stain, or did you cook up your own? I went a little too red/maroon in my mixture (see Avatar) trying to get that Rocket's Rosewood look, but the more orangy look would have been better, and I really like how yours is looking!

good stuff man....please post more pics! and obviously, more listening impressions when you are done.

[ColoradoTom]

nice freaagin' work Tom!!! :T

that Santos Rosewood looks superb!! Did you buy a specific stain, or did you cook up your own? I went a little too red/maroon in my mixture (see Avatar) trying to get that Rocket's Rosewood look, but the more orangy look would have been better, and I really like how yours is looking!

good stuff man....please post more pics! and obviously, more listening impressions when you are done.

The picture is just of the raw veneer with a VERY light sanding....if I get a chance I'll post a picture of what it will look like finished.. I can mimic the look by just wiping on mineral spirits!

Has anyone figured out the wine label?? :rofl:

ColoradoTom

[chasw98]

Has anyone figured out the wine label?? :rofl:

ColoradoTom

Avalon?

[ColoradoTom]

Avalon?

Yup... I was picking up wine for one of our clients and I saw the bottle and figured I'd use it in one of the final photos. It actually turned out to be a pretty good cabernet.

ColoradoTom

[cjd]

Yeah, that speaker cabernet is sure looking good.

Um... funky accent though.

C

[chasw98]

Didn't find any "Patel", huh?

[ThomasW]

Oh sure! What are you 'finishing', the speakers or the bottle of wine? ...... :B :B :B