Minimum wattage for speakers

[John Holmes]

When I listen to music or movies, there seems to be a certain volume level where the speakers come to life. When the pluck of a guitar or gunshot becomes involving and not just heard.

Is this the point where the speaker is getting the minimum watts it needs to "turn on" so to speak? If so, where does current play in?




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[Andrew Pratt]

I'd say it has to do more with SPL then wattage...of course they're related but given the different kinds of amps you can use (tube vs solid state) I'd venture to guess that it has to do with energizing the room

[John Holmes]

That maybe, however, with so many audiophile type tube amps that only put out 8 watts or so, how can they achieve this with a speaker which states it requires 25watts min?




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[JonMarsh]

They can't, John. The SET amps are designed to be used with speakers which are in the 93-96 dB/watt sensitivity range, which does limit the field of application.

The phenomena you're experiencing is based on human hearing and that old familiar Flether-Munson loudness curve.

For playback to have the same perceived loudness and dynamic constrast as the original performance, it should be at close to the same SPL- not louder, not softer.

This is actaully a problem for high accuracy speaker systems, like dynamic diple speakers, which don't interact with a room in a way to create the perception of extra bass. This extra bass makes music sound a little louder than it is- hence, the typical extra boom or thud of many speakers is a type of loudness compensation, just as the bass boost switch common on old recievers and amplifiers did the same thing. (Am I dating myself a bit, here?

Many reviewers of Linkwits's dipole systems, such as the Vivaldi or Beethoven, have commented on how they seemed to need to be turned up a little more than a "standard" box system to come alive- this is because they minimize resonance and room interaction in the bottom end. (Of course, they also sound more lifelike and natural, and much more detailed, once you reduce the peaks and dips from room interaction. The latter can be managed with correct room placement, but most folks don't or won't do it, because they don't like where the speakers wind up). :roll:

So, in summary, it's your ears, and the ear-brain interface. Not the speakers, really- their linearity at low levels is good, much better than at high levels, in fact!

Regards,

Jon




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[John Holmes]

Thanks Jon,

It now makes sense to me. I was unable to put my finger on it before.

For playback to have the same perceived loudness and dynamic constrast as the original performance, it should be at close to the same SPL- not louder, not softer

I guess here is where the real issue begins. This has been something I have asked myself a thousand times. With music and movies, who really knows what the artist or director's intent was at it's creation. I'm sure the overall level as well as specific passages, were designed to be a far cry different than what we play them back at in many cases.

As for room interaction and placement, I know how critcal it is. After you gave me the heads up about speaker placemant referenced at the Cardes site (a few months ago), I have played with placemant quite a bit. With my room now being almost square, it became more important to get the speakers placed correctly. My speakers are very accurate in tonal quality (I like it that way). And I always run my sub since they roll off at 80hz. But, I do have to get them up a little in volume, to give me that tactile feel of the instruments. Which surprises me with my room being so small and having more than enough power.

I guess I should feel as you about "dating yourself". I recall when having it (Bass Boost) was a must have in my youth. ops:




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[Brandon B]

How come there is no word for dating one's self? There's one for having sex with yourself. You'd think there'd have to be at least one date first.

BB

[Kevin P]

How come there is no word for dating one's self? There's one for having sex with yourself. You'd think there'd have to be at least one date first.

Well, I suppose since you have to live with yourself... :?

And yes, I've had (and still have) receivers with the "loudness" / "bass" button. And I admit to having used it in my youth. Heck, I even had a graphic equalizer! ops:

KJP




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[Burke Strickland]

After you gave me the heads up about speaker placemant referenced at the Cardes site (a few months ago), I have played with placemant quite a bit.

So the rest of you won't have to go through the same wild goose chase I did earlier today, the name is "Cardas" -- actually George Cardas -- and the information he gives is VERY useful -- I followed the formula for planar speakers quoted here (emphasis added for the planar formula-- and box speaker formulas left in the quote since most of you will be more interested in those): http://www.soundstage.com/audiohell/audiohell200111.htm

RW x .276 = Distance from the center of the woofer face to the side walls

RW x .447 = Distance from the center of the woofer face to the wall behind the speaker

This applies to box speakers only. Dipole or panel speakers cancel side waves, so a multiplier of .618 x the ceiling height will give you the distance from the rear wall.

and got an immediate improvement in my Magnepan's soundstage -- even though my "intuitive" trial-and-error placement was just a couple of inches away from the "formula-specified" position. (It wasn't all that "bad" before, but following the formula noticeably increased the "sweet spot" to a "sweet area"(tm) and widened the sound stage overall).

The full article with a lot of supplemental material for various room configurations can be read here: http://www.cardas.com/cgi-bin/main_c...ing=Room+Setup

Note that he refers to "rear wall" as the wall behind the main left and right stereo speakers -- many of us with a home theater orientation refer to that as the "front wall". You sure don't want to use his measurements to pull your speakers too far toward the wall behind where you sit. :>)

Burke

[John Holmes]

Thank you Burke for keeping me honest! 8)

Yes, there is a ton of useful info there. It's a great read for novice and pro a like.




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