A prototype product, requesting input

[Lex]

Ok, the moment you have been waiting for, or not, lol.

If this product goes "online", they will be called Twisted Kitty Digital Interconnects!
It was originally suggested as a name by Andrew Pratt. He said Twisted Kitties. Well, we ordinarily think of digital interconnects as a singular item, not in multiples as we think of Silvercats. Yes, we do offer 5 SCs, but that 5th one isn't much good without the other 4.

Let me know your thoughts please on the planned Twisted Kitty Digital Interconnects, you guys that might be interested in digital interconnects and perhaps component video. They have not been tested for component video as yet. I hope to complete that test early this week. I was quite impressed with their capabilities as a digital interconnect. My results are:

1. Very nice cymbal reproduction.
2. transparent at the top, excellent vocal renditions.
3. No loss in the mid-range area, excellent.
4. Bass is solid. I didn't have my subs on, and never lacked for bass last night auditioning:
Jazzmasters I
Stan Getz
Diana Krall Stepping Out
Sarah McLachlan's Fumbling Towards Escacy








The Rooster says these rock! :B My daughter did the rooster in art class this year. That should gum up the works real good.

There's a lot of work associated with one of these cables. I won't divulge exactly what all at this time. But the coax's conductor core is 26awg, so it's very fine wire. The wire is copper core and silver coated. So, the silver tradition continues at CAT with this latest prototype product. Later, we may add yet another video product, that will be a solid silver core center. I will try to hold the price down on short lengths of this product. But longer lengths may require an additional charge for the labor involved. These are hand braided, and if you look closely you may notice that the cable that is finished is a looser braid than the two without connectors attached. Any thoughts on which looks better, the loose braid or the tigher braid? Obviously, the tighter the braid, the more wire it takes, but that doesn't concern me at this stage as much as just getting the product right. There could be some changes as the product evolves. But first I just need input on the look of the product, assuming the performance is of a high standard.

FYI, each of the braided wires is of coaxial design, so that the possibility of noise, video or audio noise is greatly reduced. It uses coaxial wire for the double ground as well as the center conductor.

Thanks,
Lex




Cable Guy DVD Collection

[John Kotches]

Lex,

Have you gone cross-eyed yet from doing all that braiding?

Looks quite nice, and it'll be good to see you getting product #2 out the door.

Nice connectors -- and hopefully a real world instead of a real crazy price.

Given that you have a 3 conductor architecture, are you considering adding apropos termination for use as an AES/EBU cable?

Just curious.

Regards,




---
Editor, PC/Home Theater
Secrets of Home Theater and High Fidelity
My Home Theater
NEC LT-150 specific page.

[pf]

Doug:

I guess John beat me to it. When are you going to make some balanced SilverCats? Though it may still be a while, as soon as my new amps come in I need to get my hands on at least a pair.

I thought the individual strands for the SilverCats are 22g but you mention the ones you have on the digital cable in the picture is 26g and yet they look thicker. Is it because as you said each individual strand is a coaxial wire by itself? I think the tighter braid will be less prone to bending unless you are going to put a clear coat on it like you know what.

Btw, I tried the audiosurvey thing but it wouldn't work for me. Will go back again later to give it another try.

Have fun braiding! Lol.

PF

[Lex]

John, thanks for the complement on my prototype. Coming from you, that means quite a lot.

Fact is, I don't even have the wire to build these yet, as I said, these are prototypes built from sample wire. So, I don't quite have product 2 ready to go out the door just yet. Of course, a real benefit of 75 ohm cable is it can work for digital and video applications. So, it actually could be products 2 and 3. Even 4 if I decide to punish myself by doing S-video applications.

Next, the AES/EBU, can you expand on that? Are you speaking basic 3 conductor balanced there, just not XLR? so far, the only AES/EBU reference I see is digital audio adapters in my Neutrik book.

Po-ming, nice to see you on the Guide! Don't sweat it man, I will figure this balanaced stuff out, and get the connectors soon. When your ready, just let me know, and if I don't have them yet, I will arrange to get some.

Regarding the wire diameter of Silvercats vs. the new coaxial product. That's right, the conductor is surrounded by a plastic insulator on the new wire, which is then wrapped by a metal shield (sheathing), then wrapped by the colored plastic cover. All this means even though the center conductor wire is smaller in diameter, it's actually a much fatter total cable. That's the difference between standard audio and coax. Of course, some coax does have a thicker conductor wire, but that in and of itself isn't all that meaningful. I am not sure about convering this wire with the same clear cover. For 1 it would have to be a larger diameter cover, meaning there is a termination issue with the end of the RCA plug. Not necessarily that it's not doable, but it does present somewhat of a challenge to do this. The other consideration is the hand braid of coax is fairly uniform, but there can be some variations in the braid size. That could spell trouble for the sheathing. The Silvercat braid is machine done, meaning it's a much more controlled braid.

Anybody got ideas for a good balanaced connector supplier? How about the Neutrik X or X1 series? What's the configuration most folks need 3 pin? I notice they come in 3,4,5,6, and 7 pin.

How about XL series connectors, anybody use those?

Balanaced connectors is not an area of experience for me, but it shouldn't be a problem once I get them. I do know they are a bit more trouble as they usually add to the price of most cables.

Lex




Cable Guy DVD Collection

[Lex]

Oh yeah, as John and Po-min both said something about the braiding-

Well, I tell ya, braiding 2 meters of it today, it's hard on the fingertips. Tends to rub you a bit raw feeling! The fist one it was like, how did I braid my daughter's hair again? lol.

By number 3, I was braiding without even looking at the cables, just by feel. Not bad ey?

Lex

[pf]

Doug:

Wow, I always thought balanced & XLR are the same although I recall when I got my pair from BC, they do call it AES/EBU and they have a female connector @ one end & male connector the other. I also think they are of the three pin variation. As for sources, I am sure places like Markertek or partsexpress carry consumer grade stuff but figure you may get better quality/price from your supplier. I recall seeing a few ads on Stereophile about balanced connectors and am sure Cardas is one of them.

As for braiding, if this ever gets going you should make yourself some sort of braiding device for those fingers do get sore not to mention something call Carpel Tunnel.

Btw John, I am beginning to collect basic info on planar/electrostatic speakers and may need your valuable expertise later on.

PF

[John Kotches]

Lex,

For consumer audio equipment, XLR connectors are 3pin.

Characteristic impedance for AES/EBU (digital) cable is 110 ohm. I'm fairly certain Balanced Audio cables also have 110ohm characteristic impedance.

Neutrik is the XLR connector of choice for good reason, they're rock solid, with a build to last for a long, long time.

Regards,




---
Editor, PC/Home Theater
Secrets of Home Theater and High Fidelity
My Home Theater
NEC LT-150 specific page.

[Lex]

Well, honestly Po-ming, I just read the catalog wrong tonight, guess I was more tired tonight than I thought from my day's golf adventure. lol.
One of the reasons I have forstalled getting into XLR was I just didn't know what connectors to get. I mean, when you haven't used something, it's better to wait until you know what to get instead of just picking some.

John, thanks for the info, I really just don't know about the 110 ohms, whether this cable would suffice or not, I assume that if standard silver audio cable can be XLRd, then the coax could as well, but that's just a hunch. Need more info.

At any rate, we can discuss this more tomorrow.

Lex

[Lex]

Well, a change in things, it looks like all my strands that I purchase will actually be white in color. Of course, there's two things I could do.

1. leave them white
2. cover them with a wire cover and then braid them. That would give the cable a nice finished look. Of course, it adds to the price.

comments?

Checking on the Neutrik connectors now...

Lex




Cable Guy DVD Collection

[efarstad]

Albino Twisted Kitty Digital Interconnects? :B

Hey why not! There are albino cats out there! The cables look good Lex...white might be kinda cool too (Tell me who has just white cables???? Noone I can think of....)!

Perhaps you could put the same transparent sheeth around these as you did your Silvercats...that might look cool too (but don't know how hard that would be)!

I still like my Albino idea though!

E





The Norwegian A/V Nut!
E-Cinema

[P-Dub]

Well, white would be a very nice marketing touch. Can't think of anybody else that has it. Then you could just add colour indicators at the ends, either on the connector itself, or use colour shirnk where you connect the wire to the rca connector.

Did you make that connection?




Paul

There are three kinds of people in this world; those that can count, and those that can't.

[Lex]

Thanks guys, great idea, albino cats, lol. Ha E!

The real catch is, if I do the multi-color, I have prep work to do just to get to the point to braid. This is very difficult and time consuming. the white enables me to just run with it and braid right away.

Lex

[P-Dub]

Let me ask, does the outside colour have anything to do with performance?

Will making the wire have different colour increase cost? Probably, definitely increases labour. So why not be distinctive. Or how about just painting a colour stripe down the white wire to indicate which is which? Just some more ideas.




Paul

There are three kinds of people in this world; those that can count, and those that can't.

[Lex]

Actually no Paul, no correlation between the jacket color and performance. Thanks for all the ideas, I love ideas! After all, that's where the name Twisted Kitties came from.

This just in-
I tested the Twisted Kitties in a video application tonight. Component video from a Sony DVD player with the pulldown, and a huge Sony Wega widescreen flatscreen set. The ste was running Monster component cables when I got there. The Rep wasn't particularly keen on the idea of changing them out on anything, and as you know most video stores are not setup for short cables. So, I said, hey, I can change this Wega without moving it, no problem. Had a DVD player right below it.

I hooked them up first without viewing the setup with the Monster component set, so I had no preconceived notions of what I should be seeing. I wanted my impression to be fresh.

My first impression was, hmmm, very nice! I looked closer for shadows, artifacts, anything indicative that the picture was not clear and concise. I saw nothing. All I was was liquid imaging, and 3d dimensionality to the characters against their backdrop. A pool of water came on the screen, and it looked very realistic. this was a Clint Eastwood flick of some kind, though not sure what film. I looked at it, talked to a guy that was shopping with his rep. (you know us HT types, we have to listen in, and finally jump in, lol. I tried not to be obtrusive, but the guy kept asking me questions! LOL.

Ok, when all was said and done, I reconnected the Monster cables, and left the set with the inferior image quality due to cabling, lol. No, seriously, I thought I saw more granularity to the screen, not nearly as liquid and 3 dimensional. In short, I think the Twisted Kitties purrrrrrred.

I had two sales reps look at them, and they saw nothing bad at all. One of the reps was going to show me how sharp he was, and spoted some red at the top of one side of the screen, and some blue at the other, and he said something about my cables caused this, as he didn't remember it before. I was ready to leave anyway, so I just freeze framed it right on the scene, unhooked my cables and reconnected the Monsters. What do you know, the monstersh showed the same colorations. Either in the DVD or it's a mis-match of the TV/DVD player/media in image size. He was right that something was wrong, but it wasn't the CATs. :B

I was busy tonight. I had to finish 2 pair when I got home, talked to a Rep for wire, did some other things, ate, and jetted to the A/V store at 8. Whew!

Lex




Cable Guy DVD Collection

[Lex]

I am further considering an option that will enable me to have the multi-color for digital interconnect Twisted Kitties only. Not for component Video unless it's 1 meter or less.

The good news is, I would offer the all white in component video in lengths up to say 5 meters. That works out to 16.4 feet. Beyond that, it's a custom cable and will cost extra due to braid time. But there will likely be a graduated price scale as the length's get longer. Lot of work there folks.

Now comes the hard part, plopping down the plastic to get all this wire. lol. It's leveraging a bit, to try and grow my business. I honestly need more products, and this is a very viable option.

What you think guys, should I go on this deal?

Lex




Cable Guy DVD Collection

[KennyG]

I think the white will actually look better, give them a "high class" look.
I'd also twist them loose...less stress on the wires. (facts taught in avionics)

[efarstad]

I'm for the white...it's classy...the albino's are purrrrrfect! :B

E





The Norwegian A/V Nut!
E-Cinema

[Andrew Pratt]

Doug I wouldn't braid them too tight...to much stress on the cables...but for reducing interference from the other cables getting them to cross each other at 90 degree's is optimal. Of course since you're using coax cables this shouldn't be a problem for this application. Maybe you can offer them with or without the mesh sheath over top..add on $X for the mesh if clients want it (I would)

PS is there a royalties for coming up with names

[GregoriusM]

White. Loose. Easily bent. Very nice product. Outer clear plastic would be cool, but not needed.

I'd even like the short ones to be white! Nice distinctive product line!

When I get my Kenwood Mega Changer, I want Twisted Kitties Albino Digital Interconnects for my component connection!!!

... Greg

[Lex]

Thanks guys for all the friendly advice! I love this board, especially when it comes time to brainstorm, you guys are awesome!

Well, it's nearly a done deal, I call tomorrow to confirm last details of the order, and it's in the mill. Meaning, as long as it takes to ship it, is about all it will be until the wire is here. It's being shipped direct from the manufacturer. I have 7,000 feet coming. You say, huh? Why so much?!? Well, since I wanted to keep the silver tradition going, but at an attractive price, I saw this as an opportunity to insure stock for Twisted Kitty Digital Interconnects and Albino Twists Component and perhaps S-Video, well into the future. (You can't hold me to that S-video thing yet, lol.) This is the best braid wire I have seen, out of all the samples I have had. So, I am damn excited to have the entire stock that is left going to CATCables.com!

What lies beyond these cables? Well, time will tell, but a lot can happen in a year or two regarding various suppliers. Today, this was the right cable for CAT. I am just glad that I was the one that found it.

To consider just how much wire that is, I purchase my Silvercat wire in 100 foot rolls. 7000 feet, is 70 times more than that! Ack, I sure hope you guys need some DICs (digital interconnects) and video cables, lol. Pllllllease!

I promise to keep the prices just as inexpensive as I can. Right now, I am guessing, that I will have the best prices for triple braided coax around. Heck, not sure anyone else is triple braiding coax to begin with. I swear the picture through these cables was breathtaking, and the audio just as pure as what your feeding it.

Also, I am going to be offering Nuetrik's best LXR connectors. Any ideas on color keyed ends, or "rings", anything to that or just as soon have color keyed shrink?

Thanks,

Lex




Cable Guy DVD Collection

[Lex]

Gregorius, I can take care of that need when your ready. What length? 1 meter? 2? Just let me know.

Oh, I forgot to mention another possibility, all blue, all green, all red. These won't always be able to be accomodated, but occasionally, I could fill this request in shorter lengths such as .5, 1, and 2 meter.

Lex

[pf]

Lex:

You can count me in for at least a 10 foot pair of the BALANCED SilverCats, just like the one I bought in my first order except different connectors of course.

What colors other than the red & black heat shrinks are we talking about? I don't think there can be too many variations on that although like to see chrome/gold other than the traditional black connectors but ultimately it's the quality instead of color of the connector that counts.

As for the twisted kitties, sorry I am not the type (into video that is) plus I should have enough SilverCats to carry me through most analog/digital coaxial applications. Don't you agree?

P.S. 7000 ft! Now that is twisted.

PF

[GregoriusM]

Lex: You've got my order when the Kenwood Sovereign line hits Canada which apparently won't be until just before Christmas.

I'll start with a set of Albino component video, and see about other interconnects later. I've got some pretty good ones right now.

But, UltraLink just doesn't sound as cool as Cats or Kitties!! ;-)

Plus, I need that length of time to save up for the Mega Changer!

And I don't buy anything less than 2 meter. I like flexibility in my placement. Especially when you're buying high quality interconnects, that length is no big deal.

Becaue I know as soon as I buy a shorter pair, I'm going to get another component, shift them all around, and have some interconnects way too long and some too short. So, I buy all 2 meter puppies.

[Lex]

Po-ming, the Silvercat XLR connectors are on the way. Of course, termination of the CATs with the balanced connecctors is TBD. I have not previously terminated these, so I don't know how the standard tubing will fit up, but I will let you know as soon as I am ready. If not next week, likely the week after. It shouldn't take to long to get that worked out.

So, you don't do digital out of your CD player to your processor? Or to your DAC? I don't really recommend the Silvercats for that application, but the new cables are excellent for digital to digital connections. But whatever you need, you got. Your such a good customer already! Just a few folks may need these digital connections and component feeds, I hope, lol. Beauty is, if you have a projector and are building, I recommend long runs of my coax during the building stage. After all, I can certainly supply whatever length you require, lol.

I know some of you guys think I am crazy, but I plan to build a lot of products around this cable, and since digital and video is half of what we do, I don't anticipate a problem selling it at attractive prices. After all, it offers silver conductivity at attractive prices. For digital and video, this is the stuff. High res 75 ohm cable.

Lex

[pf]

Doug:

Take your time on the XLR SilverCat for looks like my amps will be awhile away. You know I will be honored to own the first pair but still want to make sure it works and with your signature workmanship. Yes, I do have a DHLab coaxial digital cable b/w the Planet & the Perpetual Technologies P-1A but not in a hurry to change it over. Well, may be if when the XLR cable is ready and you also have a twisted one in store then may be.

Believe me, when it comes time for me to dump the RPTV for a projector, you will hear me knocking on your door.

Btw, have you ever heard of minimum length for a coaxial digital cable? There's a post on HTT from a guy who read contrasting info from different sources about too short a cable may be affected by 'reflective waves'. What do you think?

PF

[Lex]

Thanks Po-ming. I think you know me well enough to know I won't rush anything. I try to do it right, or not at all. Yes, I am getting faster at designing products, but that's due to having been through it before, and knowing up front the ideas I want to execute. I have so many ideas flowing right now with the new wire, it's very exciting. Of course, when it gets right down to it, very little performance difference in them as they will all incorporate technically the same wire. But I can do quite a lot with the appearance, and that's what I am focused on with the technical decisions mostly made. As I said, I ordered Nuetrik's best black and gold contact XLRs today, and they will be in house next week. From there, dressing up the ends shouldn't take over a week or so, even if I decide I need an additional shrink product.

Thanks for your confidence in CAT and me Po-ming, and of course, the many other customers that I have had so far. You folks are what really makes this fun.

Regarding the comments on to short of a DI, well, that's interesting, I will have to look that up tomorrow. Tonight tis late, and must get some rest. But no, I have not heard anything to this effect.

A quick run down on products by name coming up:
Twisted Kitty digital Interconnects, available in red, white, blue, green, and black wire and multicolor, the base product.

Albino Twist component video, Blackcats will be a covered cable design available for component video or for DI. There's another product or two in the works, but it's to early to say anything about that.

Lex




Cable Guy DVD Collection

[pf]

Doug:

This is the link.

http://www.hometheatertalk.com/ubb/Forum10/HTML/000385.html

PF