HT'less, and thinking too much :( possible mind change on upgrade path

[Bob Santos]

Ok Guy's,
The zip tie thread somehow got me second guessing my decision in a new Pre/Pro.
I was dead set on getting the Ref 30, using extra money toward a new amp. My current amp is definately a bit lacking. It's a HK Pa5800. I bought back when they were beeing closed out. My intensions were use that to start off with, get a good Pre/pro, then buy a better amp. I use Definitive speakers which are reletively easy to drive. The HK drives them fine, but lacks the punch, and definition the better quality, and higher power amps do.
I decided a few weeks ago to sell my Casa Nova, and look for another Preamp that will offer me more formats, and faster upgrades to new technology. I listened to the B&K Ref 30, and very impressed, and at the price it sells for I will be able to do that long neglected amp upgrade as well. I origionally though about replacing the Theta with a Pre/pro in the same price range, but when I saw the B&K, and the price it dawned on... " hey I can get a amp too".
So here I am with my Casa Nova gone. There are two ways I can go from here.
One way ( the way I am planning now) is. Buy the Ref 30, and a new amp. Use them for a while, and make a judgment on weather or not the B&K is giving me the sound I am looking for, and used to. ( allthough the amp upgrade will certainly help it in this area). If a few months down the line I decide it's not for me I can sell it, and get a different unit.
Second would be to get a more expensive preamp now (Teg,Lex,etc..), and live with my current amp for a couple of months until I can replace it.
If I go with option 1. and I do end up loving the Ref 30 I have saved myself a ton of money.
If I go with option 2. I have the satisfaction of knowing I bought the best quality pre/pro I could afford. I have no doubt the higher priced units will give me the lavel of quality I am used to. My initial thoughts upon listening to the Ref 30 are it's not quite there, but damn close for a lot less money.
Sorry for the long post

What would you do?

[Lexman]

Bob, perhaps I should back off and let the guys pick up on this one. Who am I kidding? I can't let this go early on without commenting, lol.

I think first off, your accustomed to a pretty good pre-pro in the Theta. To "cross grade" or "down grade" might in fact wind up being a decision that costs you substantial coin if your dissatisfied. Simply, the pre-pro is then used, so top dollar may or may not be able to be had, and then your right back to buying what you had the opportunity to buy now.

I have never been one to purchase "systems" all at one time. Instead, it's historically been more of a constant shuffle in and out. First I like this method because I cannot afford to do differently. Second, it gives me a real opportunity to see the improvement of the 1 link that I change, (or not).

I realize in the BK thread you mention 2 channel not being as significant. Already knowing that your system with the Theta likely has better 2 channel than the BK will offer. (maybe)

However, I want to point out that as time flows, so to sometimes do your tastes. For example? 5 years ago, I listened to no jazz. today? I listen nearly exclusively to jazz on my system. The difference in my musical tastes means that I am listening to music which when optimized on an excellent 2 channel setup, I am experiencing sheer bliss in audio performance.

Now, a lower end pre-pro could offer me similar movie performance. But when I play jazz now? Let the big dog eat, cause my system is in total harmony with itself. Even now, with the Lex, some say I am sacrificing 2 channel performance, compared to Theta, Proceed, perhaps Tag, etc... But at the level I am at, the difference could certainly be partially if not totally gained back due to the complement of other equipment and cabling. In other words, perhaps my MC-1 rises to the occasion, because, the symmetry of my system is such it's able to do so. (Is that a bunch of bunk or what?!?

Bottom line, I don't like to change someone's mindset, just to suite my own needs. But I do want to point out the chances of your own needs changing. Plus in the end, IMO, there is no substitute for quality. I like it in the cars I drive, in the home I live in, and yes, in the audio video system of which I am so proud. Of course, a lot of guys are happy with the BK, and we have a home for you here if that's the way you go. Come to think of it, outside of Theta, we got you covered about any which way you go.

Guess I couldn't shut up huh? lol.

Lex

[Ken McDaniel]

There are few pre-pro's in the class we're speaking of. Theta, Proceed, Integra, TAG, Lexicon, and Meridian (the $4K club). Personally now that I've heard the Integra I'm convinced it's in a class of it's own.

But we're talking a level of refinement that's very difficult to percieve even with the finest amps and speakers. Lex is running Sonus Faber Grand Pianos with a Lexicon MC-1 and Proceed HPA amps. I think you could start discriminating the sound on that system. With the HK amp, I don't think you'd be doing either pre any justice (this also depends on the speakers).

Get the Ref 30; it has breathtaking cinema sound and the latest soundfield capabilities. I know more than a couple of happy souls that replaced big name pre's with it.

Go and spend the rest on a monster amp. For about $2K you can find a B&K Reference 7250 (7270 for a little more) or a Rotel RMB-1095. Both push the power into the 200 watt range. Believe me brother, they sound real. These are amps with ass that don't push the checkbook too hard.

I guess my other question would be to look at the speakers. I don't know which DefTech's you have, but I know a TAG could outpace a few pieces in their line.




Ken

[KennyG]

I like Lex am not sure I'd call this an upgrade.
I would see if the store your buying it from well allow the floor demo to be taken home over a weekend, live with it a couple days, you'll know if it's a pre/pro you can live with...it's alot easier to live with upgrades than downgrades.

[Bob Santos]

Thank's for the idea's guy's.
I am running the Definitive BP 30's for mains, CLR2000 center, and pro monitor 100's (high on my to be replaced list) for rears.
I'm sure my dealer would let me take the Ref 30 home to play with. They are pretty good about that. I have taken stuff to demo in the past. The only problem is they dont carry the other's that I am interested in. Ie. Tag, Lex, and integra. They have the Proceed, but that ones not high on my list. I bought the Theta over that one once before. They do have Meridian. I have never given them much of a listen. I do notice I dont see many people on the boards using Meridian. Wonder why?
I'm still not siure what I am gonna do. The B&K Ref7250, and the Rotel 1095 are the exact amps I am looking at. I also would like to hear the Anthem MCA5. I have heard that amp holds it's own against the others, and it is quite a bit cheaper. I heard it may be a bit on the bright side though. I cant have that with the Definitives. The Rotel, and the B&K both sounded great with my speakers (at the store).
Remember if I do go with a higher priced pre/pro a new amp would only be a couple of months behind.

[Lexman]

Bob, if you want one of the higher priced one's, I say go for it. A few months won't be that difficult to wait for power.

Also, someday a more audiophile brand speaker might be a nice addition as well. Sonus faber, Aerial, Linn, maybe B & W and many more I am sure.

Lex

[Bob Santos]

Yeah Lex I haven't slept since you called my Def's MIDfi is another thread
Good thing I found TTP to keep me busy.
Actually I am eye'ing a nice set of Dynaudio's. Would love to hear the Sonus Farbers as well.
That will be a while though. The DT's will have to do for now.

[Lexman]

Ooops, sorry Bob, I didn't mean to knock your Def Tech's. They are good speakers, but when you start taking the level up a notch, they could be replaced by more musical speakers. Dynaudio a definite possibility.

Lex

[Ken McDaniel]

If I were looking at an Anthem MCA-5 I'd transfer straight over to an Outlaw 1050. At $1K, I don't think anyone comes close to it's dynamic range.

Meridian is one of those brands that is an acquired taste due to it's cost. I don't quite remember, but they have a $5K entry fee. They use slot board upgrades in the rear and never really go out of style. They are the most computer-like of the pre-amps. They quality of the sound is undeniable when heard through the likes of Martin-Logans, Sonus Fabers, and Aerials.

I've heard the new Integra ($4K) and have come to the conclusion that it's the best thing since sliced bread. They built it to be Firmware and Software upgradable. They claim it's future proof.

The Dynaudio Countour series are some of the best speakers, period. They offer soundstaging and impact that very few can compete with. Throw in a Paradigm Servo-15 or a Bag End Infra Sub and I guarantee you'd be the baddest man on the block. I think they are one of the VERY few speakers I'd consider trading my Sonus Fabers for.




Ken

[Bob Santos]

Ken,
I have heard nothing but good things about the Integra. It seems that no one around here stocks them. The Outlaw sounds pretty good. I know there are alot of happy Outlaw users out there. When The time comes I will give it consideration. As of now with amps the two I am most considering is the B7K Ref 2750, and the Rotel RMB1095. I read some reviews on the Anthem that puts them close to the level of these, and at the price it sells for it has me a bit intrigued.
As far as speakers go I got a while before I can do a upgrade there. I would most likely be looking in the price range of the Dynaudio Audience series. But you never know.

Thanks for the help

[Lexman]

Ken, great and informative posts. I am impressed.

Lex

[Andrew Pratt]

yeah me too...good job Ken Bob what about keeping the HK to drive the centre and surrounds and pick up a nice 2 channel amp or a pair of monoblocks to power the mains? I've got the same amp as you and thats my battle plan

[Lexman]

Well, even better with Dynaudios in the future, perhaps a Proceed HPA-3 to power then entire front. Maybe the amp5 depending upon speaker efficiency.

Lex

[Bob Santos]

You guy's are awesome.
Andrew I was thinking the exact same thing today.
I think that may be a plan. I think I am going to do a 5ch, and a 2ch amp. I will probably get the 5 ch first, and use the HK for the rear surrounds.
For me it will be better to tackle the more expensive amp first I think. But then again as soon as I have enough for the 2ch compulsion will probably take over.
Ken I agree with the others.. Your posts in this thread were very helpful.
Lex, I may have to take on a second job as a Rep selling Silvercats if I am to even consider the Proceed amps
New speakers will be a while. I need to get past this pre/pro stuff, then get amps, then maybe a video upgrade first.

[Lexman]

Bob, glad we are able to help. Well, if you call stripping 10 grand out of your pocket helping, lol.

The Proceed's are pricey, but I was able to buy my HPA-2 for 2600 I think. Not really THAT bad.
My AMP5 was more like 3600. Ouch. Glad these things are built like tanks. Should last a very very long time. Retail on these was about 3300 and 5K respectively.

Lex

[Andrew Pratt]

yeah I was thinking along the lines of a nice 2 channel amp like a proceed, bryston etc and leaving the HK do the rest. Honeslty in 5.1 modes I'm too distracted by the video etc to worry about the quality of the amp driving the rears. Of course thats assuming its not clipping or running out of gas etc but the HK should do ok in that regard. Remember that according to sound and vision when only 3 channels are used on the HK its putting out 150 watts per channel(20 to 20,000 hz) which isn't bad at all

[Bob Santos]

Andrew.. Great info. I didnt know that about the HK amp. I figured it was 80w per channel no matter what.

[Andrew Pratt]

try this link HK review

[Ken McDaniel]

Bob, I love the idea of adding a 5 and a 2 channel amp. I currently use 2 and 3 channel amps. Flexibility is always good.

I think that is the way to go. Personally I'd consider 3 channel amp the power the 3 fronts equally. There are two amps a hold dear above all other: Aragon 8008x3 and the Proceed HPA3. You would have to look long and hard to find better amps, period. If you're looking for value check out the Aragon, it's quite a bit cheaper ($2.5K). On the 2-channel side, the Aragon 8008BB is balanced and can be had around $2K.

If you go BOFFO up front that would allow you to save on the other 4 towards the rear. If you had a 5 channel amp, then you'd have one left over for a passive sub like a Sonotube, Hsu, or SVS. In this case the Anthem would foot the bill quite nicely.

It's always easier to spend other people's money than it is to spend my own.




Ken

[Bob Santos]

You people are going to cost me alot of money!
Ken, The Aragon is at the top of my list. We'll see how things pan out with my Pre/pro decision.
My current train of thought will leave me saving
for a amp for a few months. I like the Idea of a Three channel for the fronts as well. My mains, and center speaker use the same drivers. I would definately want them using the same amp as well.
That leaves me needing 4 more channels. Maybe I can find a good deal on one of those Citation 7.1's that were blown out on U-bid a while back.
I hear those are excellent amps. My dealer has one brand new in his stockroom that he may be willing to let go cheap.
Does anyone know what they were sold for on U-bid?
Just a thought anyway.
Has anyone heard the Parasound 3 channel amp?200x3 ?

[RickS]

Bob,

I'm going to throw my 2 cents in here for another option. Have a look at the Cinepro 2K6III. It is a 6-ch amp that is perfectly suited to HT as well as music. It is very flexible in its design and will do 5-ch plus a passive sub or DTS-ES or a 6-ch configuration. I am driving two SVS 20-39's with the sixth channel of the Cinepro 3K6III amp. The list price for this 250 wpc/8ohm X 6 is $3295 and, street price is around $2700.00

I have been very happy with this product.
Just another option for you.


Thanks
Rick




The Home Theater
DVD Collection

[Lexman]

Bob, I own a Parasound 1500A 2 channel amp. It's the 2 channel 200 watt amp. Now, I will say this has been some time ago, but I demo'd it for my mains, as a test just to se how good an amp it was. The amp lacked the transparency and detail of my Proceed, and the sound stage was not as wide. Had good solid bass on the low end, just not as refined as the Proceed. A definite good amp, but not a great amp. I use mine to power my two "Velex" subwoofers. If you don't know what a Velex is, then you haven't toured my website.

I mean, if your going for top notch stuff that is-
My best advice is save a little longer. If good is well, good enough, then the Proceed will do you fine. It's all relative to level.

I see the Aragon as coming the closest to the Proceed, from everything I have heard.

Lex

[Trevor Schell]

Rick ,,I never noticed the Cinepro 2KII,,this must be a new model..Anyways would it be worth matching this up with the Denon 5800?. Just seems like it could be more suitable in my system than the 3KII.

Bob,,did you ever consider the Denon 5800. This is the most full featured product out there and would be suitable as a starter Pre/Pro. I am happy with mine..Very happy!




Trevor
My HomeTheater S.E.
Sonically Enhanced
C5

[Bob Santos]

Lex,
I hear ya on the quality thing. I tried to go lesser quality when I decided to replace the Casa Nova with the Ref 30, and I cant do it. I'm sure when it comes time to buy a amp I will want to get amplification that will match the quality of my Pre/Pro. By the way I think I have have made a decision on that.

Trevor,, The Denon is a great piece. I was just reading about it last night. I dont feel a receiver is the right way for me to go. Actually that may have been a better choice than my origional plan of getting a B&K Ref 30.

[Lexman]

Well? What the hell is it, don't just keep us in the dark Bob, lol.

Ultimately, I think you've made the right decision, by making a decision. We were almost ready to exaust possible solutions, lol.

Lex

[Lexman]

Oh yeah, I forgot to mention, that I left the Parasound in my system driving my mains for 2 weeks, to get a good feel for it- So, I feel fairly confident in my findings.

Lex

[Bob Santos]

Lex,, I was at Sears with my wife buying a new
mayTAG dryer. I saw a surround sound in a box system. It was $299.99 I am going to use that, and put all this nonscence behind me
Seriously I dont want to say until the deed is done. I did that once with the B&K, now I have to go take back my post in the B&K club
I am a few hundred dollars short, so I have a week or so to change my mind AGAIN.

[Lexman]

I read you loud and clear Bob. I hope the price TAG isn't tooooo bad.

Lex

[Bob Santos]

I have no idea what your talking about LEX. I dont think I made any REFERENCEs as to what pre/pro I am going to INTEGRAte into my system