LPs vs CDs

[DrJRapp]

Stan

Most of what I picked up are insignificant titles, but I did get a couple of old broadway shows, some early Streisand, Niel Diamond, Bread, Seal, Herb Alpert and a few classical discs. I made an additional trip to another Goodwill where I picked up 15 more albums.... and they ripped me off for $.59 each !...lol At least I have something to spin when my gear get's here on monday.

I still owe you a response on the amps....it's long and informative, and I promise I'll get it out NLT tomorrow AM.

[Arneson]

My own very old collection has travelled with me many times back and fourth cross country. There have been some misshaps that damaged a lot of them.
For example after a sand storm in the Nevada dessert that took the paint off my car, I arrived in LA to find my albums full of sand. Gee I wonder why they pop?

[Andrew M Ward]

Stan

Most of what I picked up are insignificant titles, but I did get a couple of old broadway shows, some early Streisand, Niel Diamond, Bread, Seal, Herb Alpert and a few classical discs. I made an additional trip to another Goodwill where I picked up 15 more albums.... and they ripped me off for $.59 each !...lol At least I have something to spin when my gear get's here on monday.

I still owe you a response on the amps....it's long and informative, and I promise I'll get it out NLT tomorrow AM.

about $500 in record cleaning gear should be your next purchase... 8)

[DrJRapp]

about $500 in record cleaning gear should be your next purchase... 8)

Ya got that right! but....That's already been done with the tt purchase. Stan drilled home the importance of that when he was down here. I bought Audio Advisors Spin Doctor III which is a house branded Nitty Gritty 1. I also have a 20+ yo zerostat kickin around somewhere (hope it works) along with an old "Discwasher".

Andrew, what are your impressions of the Totem's?

[jayhawk75]

http://www.elusivedisc.com/prodinfo.asp?number=SHE9000


I had an $80 dollar cartridge on my table (and you know what that table was) see first post: and I had guys guessing in the thousands upon thousands as to what the cartridge was….

ok which $80 cartridge since i assume you save the $2500 for new 1 time use 200g vinyl

[David Meek]

I also have a 20+ yo zerostat kickin around somewhere (hope it works) along with an old "Discwasher".

Jerry, the Zerostat gun is still available at places like NeedleDoctor although they are a LOT more expensive than when we bought ours. Mine's stil working after all this time so hopefullly yours is okay, too.

[David Meek]

Gang, if your albums are warped, one way to correct that is to place one between two 1/4"-thick panes of glass and put that in the oven with it set at no more than 150 degrees for about 5 minutes. Pull it out, let it cool and check the warp. Adjust and repeat as necessary to flatten the disc. Try this with a throw-away album (or two) first. Once you are comfortable with the time and temp settings proceed on to your keepers.

As always, YMMV.

Lawyer-ese: HTGuide is not liable for any damage to any albums. :nonod:

[Andrew M Ward]

Ya got that right! but....That's already been done with the tt purchase. Stan drilled home the importance of that when he was down here. I bought Audio Advisors Spin Doctor III which is a house branded Nitty Gritty 1. I also have a 20+ yo zerostat kickin around somewhere (hope it works) along with an old "Discwasher".

Andrew, what are your impressions of the Totem's?

Love 'em
a great little LP set-up would be like the Sttaf and any sub you like, I tend to enjoy a sub-sat type system for LP's anyway... the Sttaf (or an older Totem equivelent) works like a satellite (no real bass) find a sub and you're on your way... However, I'm not sure you'll find Sttaf's to be an improvement over XT4's...

(this is where Doc tells me he already has some giant pair of Totem's and a REL sub... 8) )

[Andrew M Ward]

ok which $80 cartridge since i assume you save the $2500 for new 1 time use 200g vinyl

Sumiko Pearl...







:roll: (I know - I know...But it sounds great)

[alebonau]

Gang, if your albums are warped, one way to correct that is to place one between two 1/4"-thick panes of glass and put that in the oven with it set at no more than 150 degrees for about 5 minutes. Pull it out, let it cool and check the warp. Adjust and repeat as necessary to flatten the disc. Try this with a throw-away album (or two) first. Once you are comfortable with the time and temp settings proceed on to your keepers.

As always, YMMV.

Lawyer-ese: HTGuide is not liable for any damage to any albums. :nonod:

thanks for the tip david. will try. do have a treasured lp with a bit of a warp on it. which I think it got in transit somehow.

[DrJRapp]

(this is where Doc tells me he already has some giant pair of Totem's and a REL sub... 8) )

Guessed wrong this time Andrew.

The XT4s went by-by because they were just tooo big for my 13x14 study. They were also just a tad harsh on the very top. My study lib has far from ideal acoustics..ie: lots of hard reflective surfaces. I think the Arro or Sttafs and a small sub will fit much better. The trouble with my room is where the speakers have to go is basically the walkway between my desk and the side wall.....so I need something really small. I'm also considering wall hung Sats and a sub.

[Andrew M Ward]

I, myself, have been concerned about this very fact for a while, now.
Hence, my motive for hiring a PI to investigate these unnatural similarities.
Preliminary findings reveal that it appears we may be twins separated at birth.
It was cheap research lab working on cloning, old vacuum tubes were being used for gestating cells to supplement equipment costs, we got dropped on the floor, swept to the dumpster, found and saved by a used-record store owner, then deposited in the child welfare system, and now we have found each other again!

Hey Bro!, can I come over Thanksgiving dinner?

8O it is you............

[DrJRapp]

Well Fedex brought several boxes today. One contained the tt and another the preamps and a third all the rest of the "stuff".

Wen I came home I eageraly opened the box containing the TT to find that the tonearm counterweight had come loose from it's designated spot in the styrofoam packing and made it's way "throught" the dust cover which now has a huge chunk broken out of it. I should have stooped there, but after having waited nearly a week I just couldn't. I proceeded to assemble and set up the tt. Next I found the spirit level was missing so there was a hole in the plinth with nothing to put in it.

I next started the motor and it hums...not thru the audio, mind you, the motor just hums. Then the real torture started. They have this tiny counterweight that is used for antiskateing control that is on the end of some of the thinnest fishing line I've ever seen. There is a small loop on the end that one is supposed to thread over a small post about the size of a 6 penny nail in thickness. I must admit this kind of thing was much easier to do 20 years ago before my eyes started to age.

Well, I wired everything up, and after solving a simple ground loop issue was able to play my first LP in 20 years. The first thing I heard was....rumble. I'd almost forgotten what that sounded like. The subsonic filter on the back of the CA preamp didn't help much.

So, I decided to take the record off and let the platter run over night to see if anything improves.

to be continued.....

[Andrew M Ward]

Well Fedex brought several boxes today. One contained the tt and another the preamps and a third all the rest of the "stuff".

Wen I came home I eageraly opened the box containing the TT to find that the tonearm counterweight had come loose from it's designated spot in the styrofoam packing and made it's way "throught" the dust cover which now has a huge chunk broken out of it. I should have stooped there, but after having waited nearly a week I just couldn't. I proceeded to assemble and set up the tt. Next I found the spirit level was missing so there was a hole in the plinth with nothing to put in it.

I next started the motor and it hums...not thru the audio, mind you, the motor just hums. Then the real torture started. They have this tiny counterweight that is used for antiskateing control that is on the end of some of the thinnest fishing line I've ever seen. There is a small loop on the end that one is supposed to thread over a small post about the size of a 6 penny nail in thickness. I must admit this kind of thing was much easier to do 20 years ago before my eyes started to age.

Well, I wired everything up, and after solving a simple ground loop issue was able to play my first LP in 20 years. The first thing I heard was....rumble. I'd almost forgotten what that sounded like. The subsonic filter on the back of the CA preamp didn't help much.

So, I decided to take the record off and let the platter run over night to see if anything improves.

to be continued.....

Doc!
I just had the same experience with FedEx...
Two weeks ago I recieved a Qsonix Media Server (Via FedEx) totally trashed... the damage was bad...

Your TT rig needs to go back! (exchange)

[gostan]

Then the real torture started. They have this tiny counterweight that is used for antiskateing control that is on the end of some of the thinnest fishing line I've ever seen. There is a small loop on the end that one is supposed to thread over a small post about the size of a 6 penny nail in thickness. I must admit this kind of thing was much easier to do 20 years ago before my eyes started to age.....

My MMF-9 had the same fishline counterweight. I could not stand looking at it or its' design, so I sold it along with the rest of the TT and went the vintage route. If I wanted to go fishing, I would have hired a captain and a good boat.

As for the rest......Oy Vey :banghead: I suspect that you put it together to refresh your vinyl memory banks before even thinking about an exchange of TT.

[DrJRapp]

As for the rest......Oy Vey :banghead: I suspect that you put it together to refresh your vinyl memory banks before even thinking about an exchange of TT.

My thoughts exactly. I did spin several discs and it's very obvious the motor on theis player suffered due to shipping and is creating the rumble. I can feel it in the spindle when I turn the motor shaft by hand.

Several of my Goodwill vinyl purchases were of Neil Diamond albums that I also own on CD. So I got to play Cracklin Rosie (how approriate a title...lol) and a few other cuts a/b with the CD on my Shanling. No comparison...matching levels was difficult since the midrange from the Shanling was much warmer and fuller. It almost sounded like the LP was at the other end of a hallway by comparison. And, Eileen and I both preferred Rosie without the crackle! In fairness perhaps I should wait till the player gets exchanged and preamp gets some time to break in before making any other comparisons.

[gostan]

In fairness perhaps I should wait till the player gets exchanged and preamp gets some time to break in before making any other comparisons.

In fairness, you should be comparing a turntable more equal in price to your Shanling CDT100. I would suggest that the following would likely provide a more equal comparison based on cdp price for tt price: http://www.musicdirect.com/products/...ku=AMARATT15S1

After all, it would not really be fair to compare your former Rotel 1077 amp to your existing Aragon 3005 amp.

[DrJRapp]

That's the clearaudio emotion. This weekend while listening to speakers I got to listen to it with a Benz Glider ho cartridge before switching to a project with the same Goldring cartridge on the mmf5se. Since I was listening to speakers I really don't recall the differences, but I wouldn't really call it night and day. More like dawn and sunset., each representing different perspectives of the same thing. I was told that all Clearaudio cartridges are made by Benz.

I'm not sure a different tt would make all that much difference. Once I get one that hasn't udergone shipping damage that is. The cartridge and preamp on the other hand.... .

If I go any direction, it may be downward to the mmf5 (non se) and put the $$ into a better cartridge.

[Brandon B]

Doc!
I just had the same experience with FedEx...
Two weeks ago I recieved a Qsonix Media Server (Via FedEx) totally trashed... the damage was bad...

Your TT rig needs to go back! (exchange)

Same with UPS. Second attempt in the last few years to buy a used turntable from someone cross country for me has just resulted in a shattered dust cover, and tonearm and stylus that spent the trip being bounced into the plinth by the glass platter.

Guess it's new at the store and drive it home for me next time.

BB

[DrJRapp]

Well I've evaluated the MMF5se and all I can say is that anyone considering a tt should avoid the entire Music Hall line. From an engineering perspective the MMF5 is built very crappy, and I've been told that the rest of the MH tts and many Project tts built in the same Chezk plant are similarly lacking quality. Very disappointing!

I like the sound of the Goldring cartridge that came with the tt, but would like something with a fuller, lusher sound. If I can remember way back cartridges I liked were the Shure and the Grado.

[David Meek]

Jerry, I'm running a Grado Reference Sonata and it should fill your need for something fuller and lusher sounding - it's not lacking in detail either FWIW. I could keep babbling, but won't.

[gostan]

Jerry, I'm running a Grado Reference Sonata and it should fill your need for something fuller and lusher sounding - it's not lacking in detail either FWIW. I could keep babbling, but won't.

David,
Your Rega RB-250 tonearm and Nottingham Horizon TT are also far superior design and sound-wise to the MMF-5 TT and Tonearm combination. But Jerry would have to get used to no power on/off button on the Nottingham and practice the manual spin of the platter.

[DrJRapp]

I'm getting enough practice manually spinning the record cleaner...lol

[DrJRapp]

David,
Your Rega RB-250 tonearm and Nottingham Horizon TT are also far superior design and sound-wise to the MMF-5 TT and Tonearm combination. But Jerry would have to get used to no power on/off button on the Nottingham and practice the manual spin of the platter.

Stan,
Well I'm sick and tired of paying good money for junk, so out I went to find a RAT (Real Audiophile Turntable).

David,
I hope you are right about the Grado because I just got back from Hollywood Sound (yes the same guy who has tons of ads on A'gon) where I purchased a JA Michell Technodec with a Rega 250 arm and a Grado Sonata Wood. Larry is setting it up for me tomorrow and I'll pick it up in the PM.

But, David, I won't blame you if it doesn't sound good...cause...it's all Stan's fault....lol.

[David Meek]

Whew. . . dodged that one.

Seriously though, I've had albums around since about 1970-71 and listened on what I thought were reasonably good sounding 'tables. But when I heard the Horizon/Rega/Grado at a local hi-fi (well, local in Houston) retailer I knew that I was listening to something a cut above what I'd owned/heard before. It's funny, in a good way, how a better turntable/arm/cartridge that can pull more music out of an album really gives you the ability to appreciate your music collection on a different level.

Is it as convenient as CD? No, not even close. Can the pops be irritating? I suppose, but a good cleaner REALLY makes a difference. Is there something about pulling an album out, cleaning it, putting it on and sitting back for 20 minutes or so to revel in a very different feeling sound? For me - absolutely. Maybe it's the ritual - I don't know. I do know that it is purely and simply enjoyment. Jerry, I hope you find it too.

[gostan]

David,

JR is a glutton for my advice. I know that his return to vinyl and TT choice will turn out much better for him, than did my glowing reviews of the Anthem D2.

I had considered the Mitchell Technodec myself, but I am more of a retro-turntable guy. But I have already told Jerry that if he is not satisfied and decides to sell his new vinyl setup, that I might just purchase it from him. Not to keep him quiet, but because he picked such a winning combination.

Playing LP's is definitely a back in time ritual in today's fast paced world. The sound of the LP is smoother and less fatiguing than the cd. And now that I have modded my AR platter to be able to take a Merrill outer ring platter, the number of steps in my ritual have been increased. It only makes the ritual and the sound better.

Gotta go clean some records no

[DrJRapp]

All kidding aside...I have to rely on others advice because I live in a part of the country where Best Buy and Circuit City reign, and high end audio salons just plain don't exist. We used to have one chain called (we give) Sound Advice that had some really decent equipment and equally decent and knowledgeable salespeople. However, about 4 years ago Tweeter came along and bought them out, so even though SA still exists, it's but a shadow of their former selves. If you walk into a SA store today, you won't find a tt, or even most of the salespeople won't even know (or remember) what a phono cartridge looks like out of the tt arm.

So, I'm left with getting my advice from a few trusted friends online. For example, I've heard that the Grados can be the best phono cartridge out there...with the right tt. Now just how does one determine what the right tt is???? When I went down to Hollywood Sound, i had in the back of my mind David's success with the Grado Sonata and the Rega 250 arm...well 2/3 the battle at least, so I knew that to be a viable combination...plus I used to own a Grado cart which I was pleased with about 25 years ago, but for G-d sakes don't ask me about it's sound character. I've been told that the Grados are lush sounding but not highly detailed in terms of resolution, which may be a good thing for my vinyl system since it won't show up all the defects from my Goodwill album collection quite as fast as would a Dynavector or Benz or Clearaudio. Factor in the high rez speakers I'm going to use for this sytem... Maggie MC1s, something less aggressive in a cartridge may be just the ticket.

So my thinking...I'll leave the hi-rez up to the digital gear and buy vinyl for it's easy listening qualities.

I need to go pack pack up the MMF5 and send it back.

[Rael]

Playing LP's is definitely a back in time ritual in today's fast paced world. The sound of the LP is smoother and less fatiguing than the cd. And now that I have modded my AR platter to be able to take a Merrill outer ring platter, the number of steps in my ritual have been increased. It only makes the ritual and the sound better.

Gotta go clean some records no

Y'know, another interesting thing about vinyl and equipment: the more you continue to invest in a stereo system, the better the vinyl sounds, while CDs start to sound WORSE! This is especially true of poorly mastered CDs, which has become the majority of them, imo.

[DrJRapp]

Y'know, another interesting thing about vinyl and equipment: the more you continue to invest in a stereo system, the better the vinyl sounds, while CDs start to sound WORSE! This is especially true of poorly mastered CDs, which has become the majority of them, imo.

I don't agree 100%, at least from the equipment standpoint. I think much of CDs poor rep comes from people have been doing their listening of $99 Walmart players, or if one is an A/V freak, then the majority of us listen to CDs with our universal DVD/DVDA/SACD/CD spinner. Nothing could be farther from the right thing to do! I discovered this quite by accident about 2 years ago when I decided to set up a 2 channel system in my study/library and bought a moderatly priced but well received dedicated CD player made by Cambridge Audio. I had been listening to my CDs like everone else...on a universal player....not a bad one mind you... a Denon 2900 which was known for it's exceptional audio reproduction on CDs. Well, the difference with the CA over the Denon was just plain AMAZING!

This has gotten me started on an odyssey thru many players ending in a separate DAC, the Benchmark DAC1, and transport...a Theta Data basic in one system and a tube output Shanling CDT100 in another. Now, none of these players can do anything about a poorly produced CD, just like a RAT won't improve a poorly produced LP, but the higher end equipment makes most of my vintage CD collection sound damn good.

[Rael]

Oh, I agree with just about everything you're saying, DrJ. Vintage CDs will probably always sound great on a Benchmark. That baby is hard to beat, certainly at its price point! I'm finding, and many others are finding, that older CD pressings are much easier on the ears than modern remastered "improvements" that crop up year after year of vintage artists.

But in my experience, a poorly mastered CD (i.e. most rock/pop albums these days) will actually sound worse on a high end source than on a $99 machine from Walmart or in a boombox. On the other hand, a poorly pressed LP played on a Linn Sondek can actually sound more "forgiveable" than if the same LP were played on an entry level Technics.

[gostan]

JR is a glutton for my advice.

Just to further this comment. I am a glutton for his advice, as Jerry's technical knowledge along with his concise explanations have led each of us to speak to each other often and listen more carefully. :T

[DrJRapp]

Stan

How's the amp swap goin?

[gostan]

Stan

How's the amp swap goin?

Very interesting results. h: I will pm you.

[DrJRapp]

Well, the Techno is spinning......

[David Meek]

Thoughts Jerry? Inquiring minds. . . .

[DrJRapp]

It's very quiet, which the Music Hall was not. I like the overall sound of the Grado, but I need to give it more than 30 mins run in time before I make any real judgements.

[DrJRapp]

I've been spinning discs all day.

I took a two hour break and went to another Goodwill store where I was able to pick up a near pristine copy of Herb Alpert & TJB's "What Now My Love" album. I think I just heard my first really clean low bass notes out of vinyl in many a year.

[gostan]

And, are you able to really hear the individual horns and other instruments??

I am listening to a Mobile Fidelity remastered version of Gerry Mulligan Meets Scott Hamilton. Nothing like listening to the individual baritone notes of Mulligan and the tenor notes of Hamilton.

Jerry, enjoy your latest audio toy. Who ever would have thought that the king of digital would go analog and enjoy it. :lol:

[DrJRapp]

Jerry, enjoy your latest audio toy. Who ever would have thought that the king of digital would go analog and enjoy it. :lol:

Yes, I can hear the individual horns on TJB. I'm not a fan of loosy-goosey or booming bass. I like mine solid as a brick foundation. So far i'm impressed at what the Grado Wood combined with my Cambridge Audio preamp can do. The Grado is lush and musical and the 640P is musical but tight in the mids and lows.... very much like the Southerland PH3D I recently heard.

I do like the stability and isolation of the TechnoDec, no microphonics from the bass feeding back from the room.

I just ordered a bunch of "audiophile" discs online so that I can have some decent pressings. This week my new speakers should arrive for this setup. Then I can really see what this all can do.

[David Meek]

That's great Jerry! :T Plus, it's always nice to hear that advice/opinions given do meet expectations.

What did you order? 180-gram, virgin-vinyl?

[DrJRapp]

What did you order? 180-gram, virgin-vinyl?

No, just regular stuff from elusive disc. Some old titles that I used to enjoy and don't already have on CD. At least they won't have been previously mauled on someone's "victrola".

[DrJRapp]

Got my new speakers this week....apair of Magnepan MC1s that I have wall mounted across from my desk. I like the detail of planar and esl speakers and the MC1s bang for the buck is hard to beat ($750 pr). They do need a sub down below 80hz, so for the time being I have an older Energy 10" that's been kickin around doing nothing, that's filling in that job. The Energy is a bit boomy in this small room though. I think I need to look for an 8" in something newer and tighter.

One of the things I really like about the Maggies for this setup is that they seem to minimize the presence of the clicks and pops on the vinyl.

[Chris D]

Oooooooooh, I REALLY want a set of electrostats or magnetic planars...

[DrJRapp]

Yup...they're the best for music IMHO...now I have both , esl's (Marting Logan Summit) in my theater/family room, and the Maggies mentioned above in my study/library. The performance of the 2 channel s/l system is astonishing considering most of my components, although audiophile grade are not really super high cost. For less than $5K (my cost) I have assembled the following: Magnepan MC1s, Cambridge Audio Azur 640A amp, Shanling CDT100A, JA Michell TechnoDec with Rega 250 arm and Grado Ref Sonata cartridge and an HSU ST1 8" mini sub (on it's way).

[DrJRapp]

Got the HSU sub...great little sub for $300. Very musical yet plenty of punch. Anyone with a small space desiring to end sound the MC1s and the ST1 can't be beat...and all for only $1050!!!!!