So who's winning the high def dvd race ?

[Andrew M Ward]

And when DVD first came out it was the HT junkies that bought the new tech, just like they are doing right now. And there buying HD-DVD :T

Actually that's not quite correct...
For the first 9 months Toshiba could not make their SD-3000 (The worlds first DVD player) fast enough, also Sony had the 9000ES that they had trouble keeping up with production on...

DVD was and is the fastest growing new product in history - strangely enough - many companies such as Paramount, New Line, Warner, Universal and even Sony Pictures believe standard DVD has years (I repeat) YEARS of growth left...

When I say growth I mean DVD (movie discs) this year will out sell DVD's sales from last year, and DVD sales next year are projected to significantly out sell this year... and so on (for several years)

The standard DVD is not going anywhere for a while, other than UP!

I would love to see a new format succeed, but it has to be handled better than this cluster f@&k called HD-DVD Blu-Ray

[Brandon B]

well...it is cheaper.

Not than the $500 Toshiba.

[Brandon B]

Two problems with this tho...
1. Sony has never in its history been a loss leader and never will be.
2. PS3 estimates have already been cut in half and they are still having massive production problems.

?

The PS2 was a loss leader as will be the PS3. And they are pursuing extremely aggressive pricing in the front projection market as well, although not "loss leader" pricing, they are still maintaining a small profit margin. Why would they rule out that strategy to kickstart the BR market?

I agree the formats are both in trouble, but I think it's unrealistic to count Sony out of whatever race there is.

BB

[Race Car Driver]

?
I agree the formats are both in trouble, but I think it's unrealistic to count Sony out of whatever race there is.

BB

I totally agree with every word said there. :T

[Burke Strickland]

Of course look on the bright side if you buy the loser in this fight the titles that are available will become pretty cheap....... Think Laser Disk!!!!!

The problem with that "consolation prize" is tha lack of titles in either HD-DVD or Blu Ray. When laser disk died in the US, over 10,000 titles had been released in the format. I still have nearly 400 LDs in my collection that still have not been duplicated in DVD, even with its 55,000 or more titles.

Neither HD-DVD nor Blu Ray have all that many total titles out yet, (Projector Central says "The outlook for the holiday season is that there will be over 400 HD-DVD titles released, while Blu-ray will be lucky to have 200.") and when one or both of them finally folds, there still may not be much to choose from (a.k.a. "movies you want") even at "give away" prices.

BUrke

[aud19]

But it never will be HiDef and the cost off the 2930 is more than a Toshiba A1. Just doesn't make sense to by the Denon :agree:

Not true. There is WMHD on standard DVD's... which a) can be played on a HTPC and b) would not be that difficult to make SD-DVD/WMHD-DVD capabable set top player. The problem there is a lack of WMHD titles though with HD-DVD utilizing that format - if the higher capacity discs fail - perhaps that knowledge etc could be applied to standard DVD's and could flourish there....?

As for computer media and it's larger capacity etc.... honestly I don't see it. Frankly if you need more capacity than a CD or DVD there are PLENTY of inexpensive, portable, flash or disk drives etc for this need. So in all honesty while a larger capacity disc is cool and everything it's not really necessary in the PC world as far as I can see.

[ht_addict]

Actually that's not quite correct...
For the first 9 months Toshiba could not make their SD-3000 (The worlds first DVD player) fast enough, also Sony had the 9000ES that they had trouble keeping up with production on...

What was the price off these units? Certainly out of the J6P price range. The scenario you mentioned is exactly whats happening with the Toshiba A1. They just can't keep them on the shelves

DVD was and is the fastest growing new product in history - strangely enough - many companies such as Paramount, New Line, Warner, Universal and even Sony Pictures believe standard DVD has years (I repeat) YEARS of growth left...

When I say growth I mean DVD (movie discs) this year will out sell DVD's sales from last year, and DVD sales next year are projected to significantly out sell this year... and so on (for several years)

The standard DVD is not going anywhere for a while, other than UP!

Never said it wouldn't.

I would love to see a new format succeed, but it has to be handled better than this cluster f@&k called HD-DVD Blu-Ray

The only cluster f@&k happening is with Blu-Ray.

[ht_addict]

?

I agree the formats are both in trouble, but I think it's unrealistic to count Sony out of whatever race there is.

BB

HD-DVD is delivering, Blu-Ray isn't. Sony has alot off hurdles to overcome between now and the christmas season. Production problems with their expensive PS3, BR50 production issues, use of MPEG2 resulting in sub-par PQ on the Samsung BR player. Not looking good.

[ht_addict]

Not true. There is WMHD on standard DVD's... which a) can be played on a HTPC and b) would not be that difficult to make SD-DVD/WMHD-DVD capabable set top player. The problem there is a lack of WMHD titles though with HD-DVD utilizing that format - if the higher capacity discs fail - perhaps that knowledge etc could be applied to standard DVD's and could flourish there....?

As for computer media and it's larger capacity etc.... honestly I don't see it. Frankly if you need more capacity than a CD or DVD there are PLENTY of inexpensive, portable, flash or disk drives etc for this need. So in all honesty while a larger capacity disc is cool and everything it's not really necessary in the PC world as far as I can see.

All I said was that if someone is going to spend $800US on the 2930, why not get the Toshiba A1 for $500 and under. The PQ of an upconverted SD-DVD is not going to be on the same level as a HD-DVD version.

[eddiem67]

Has anyone played with either HD or blu-ray, I really want to know if my 100" wide picture will look any different than my current oppo upconverted pic.

And want I'd really like to see is OPPO come out with a player that will play both formats and cost under $300.....

Of course look on the bright side if you buy the loser in this fight the titles that are available will become pretty cheap....... Think Laser Disk!!!!!

I hooked up a HD-A1 to my brothers Panny AE900, looked really nice even though it was at 720P. He has a 105" screen

[eddiem67]

With HD-DVD players at $500, $600 for a BR player that also dishes out kick@$$ games (PS3) is actually a pretty good value. I know plenty of people who got into DVDs with the PS2, so it's not that much of a jump at all.

Toshiba has an upgrade for Xbox 360, so you can play HD-DVD's

[sikoniko]

Actually that's not quite correct...
For the first 9 months Toshiba could not make their SD-3000 (The worlds first DVD player) fast enough, also Sony had the 9000ES that they had trouble keeping up with production on...

The SD-3000 was my first DVD player! I think I paid $500 for it too, come to think of it.

I have an hd-dvd player. I sold my onkyo sp-1000, bought the xa1 from toshiba, and still had money left over.

the way I see it, even if hddvd goes away, I have a great sddvd player, and I can play any hddvd's I own, so its not a loss.

Im enjoying HD movies that I own NOW, while everyone either on the fence or on the other side can peek through the window! but oh, my blinds are down so my projector doesn't get light! too bad. I'll just enjoy the best of both worlds.

[eddiem67]

I still have my SD-3000, paid about the same. now its in my garage, for when I want to watch movies when Im working in there.

[Gene Simmons]

?

The PS2 was a loss leader as will be the PS3. And they are pursuing extremely aggressive pricing in the front projection market as well, although not "loss leader" pricing, they are still maintaining a small profit margin. Why would they rule out that strategy to kickstart the BR market?

I agree the formats are both in trouble, but I think it's unrealistic to count Sony out of whatever race there is.

BB

They clearly don't have any intentions of being a loss leader with Bluray, their entry level machines are $1200.

This is a horrible time for Sony to get caught in another (ad nauseum) format war, they never win and never will win. Bluray will most likely end up like SACD as previously mentioned. And PS3 will not have an effect on the format war because by the time it hits north america, it will be all over.

The only time Sony has ever been successful with their electronics is when they use other's technologies, VHS, MP3, DiLA. Their R&D is an embarassment! I would count them out and I would bet against them, their history with this stuff is abyssmal.

[Alaric]

They clearly don't have any intentions of being a loss leader with Bluray, their entry level machines are $1200.

This is a horrible time for Sony to get caught in another (ad nauseum) format war, they never win and never will win. Bluray will most likely end up like SACD as previously mentioned. And PS3 will not have an effect on the format war because by the time it hits north america, it will be all over.

The only time Sony has ever been successful with their electronics is when they use other's technologies, VHS, MP3, DiLA. Their R&D is an embarassment! I would count them out and I would bet against them, their history with this stuff is abyssmal.

Yeah , they really screwed up with that silly CD format.....

[Brandon B]

You seriously think the format war is going to be over in 4 months?

BB

[Arneson]

I AM winning the high def race.
One ear is half gone and the other has lost the highs.
What did you say, ay, ay.

[Andrew M Ward]

What was the price off these units? Certainly out of the J6P price range. The scenario you mentioned is exactly whats happening with the Toshiba A1. They just can't keep them on the shelves



Never said it wouldn't.



The only cluster f@&k happening is with Blu-Ray.

Whose shelves?

They haven't even sold 1200 units... and the projection for the first 12 months is less than 5000 units... that's 5X less units than the original SD-3000 did in its first 12 months and we're not even counting the Sony ES9000 DVD player sales on top of the SD-3000...

By any standard this is a lack-luster launch, but I'm sure it will all work out fine...

! One issue has been consumer awareness:
Some of the marketing data from the first DVD player launch - was a high level of consumer knowledge, people knew that "this disc that looked like a CD but was a movie" was coming out and people were interested... Time magazine and news week as well as every electronics magazine had all covered it pretty well.

HD-DVD has not really captured mass-consumer imagination, and competing formats has served only to confuse and annoy the average consumer... that combined with the fact that I can take a regular scaling DVD player and put a regular DVD in it right next to the HD-DVD player with the same movie and a huge percentage of consumers see too little of a difference to even register nominal interest…

In one location an HD-DVD movie was playing on a 60 inch plasma with no signage or information, when consumers were asked they though it was a regular DVD. What this points out is that it’s just not compelling enough of a difference, people are not “Blown away” enough to do further research.

But – Like I said, I’m sure everything will work out fine.

[Andrew M Ward]

Hey!
Today I saw the Blu-ray machine right next to the HD-DVD machine; the picture was very close, closer than I thought previously... both looked very good to me

The sales staff felt the Blu-ray was a better picture... interesting and surprising...

(The Samsung Blu-ray was $969.oo the Toshiba HD-DVD was $599.oo)

Interesting to note: The Blu-ray unit takes about 12 seconds to boot a disc, the HD-DVD took a really long time on most discs (over a minute)

This is going to be a fascinating debacle to watch.... Oh, and they had stacks of both available (no shortage of either unit) and when I say stacks I mean stacks…

[eddiem67]

Theres stacks because everyone is waiting to see who will win, hence inventory at a stand still=prices will start to decline

[Brandon B]

Costco.com is carrying both the Tosh HD DVD deck for $450 and the Samsung BR for $899.

BB

[ht_addict]

Hey!
Today I saw the Blu-ray machine right next to the HD-DVD machine; the picture was very close, closer than I thought previously... both looked very good to me

The sales staff felt the Blu-ray was a better picture... interesting and surprising...

(The Samsung Blu-ray was $969.oo the Toshiba HD-DVD was $599.oo)

Interesting to note: The Blu-ray unit takes about 12 seconds to boot a disc, the HD-DVD took a really long time on most discs (over a minute)

This is going to be a fascinating debacle to watch.... Oh, and they had stacks of both available (no shortage of either unit) and when I say stacks I mean stacks…

Were they showing the demo discs or actual movies?

[Andrew M Ward]

Actauly it was some kind of a demo disc with movie clips, because I don't believe there are any matching titles or complete films available in both formats?

I could be wrong...

But needless to say both machines pictures looked better than I'd previously ever seen them look...

but that said:
Not dramatically better than standard up-scaled DVD (to my old eyeballs) keeping fully in mind that I'm not a video-phile, I don't "search for the chroma bug" or run test patterns and take measurments, I just watch and consider - making mental notes.

I do see motion artifacting , or should I say I seem to notice it more than some people do, but I'm not hyper about color temperature... anyway you get the idea. My point is (and I do have one) that I could get either unit at dealer cost and I don't feel compelled to own either, or should I say neither...

and I believe the average consumer feels the same way, in fact I know the average consumer feels the same way because they are not buying them.

it's just not a compelling product - either of them - at a consumer level

[slowrey]

Yeah , they really screwed up with that silly CD format.....

I think it was Philips who truly invented the CD. Philips brought it out in 1970's or a ideation of it and then Philips and Sony came out with the CD's as we have today.

[Alaric]

I think it was Philips who truly invented the CD. Philips brought it out in 1970's or a ideation of it and then Philips and Sony came out with the CD's as we have today.

To the best of my knowledge you are correct. I don't recall the particulars , but I thought Sony had a large hand in the format as it exists today. I guess I'll have stop being lazy and actually research it. ops:

[sikoniko]

Actauly it was some kind of a demo disc with movie clips, because I don't believe there are any matching titles or complete films available in both formats?

I could be wrong...

But needless to say both machines pictures looked better than I'd previously ever seen them look...

but that said:
Not dramatically better than standard up-scaled DVD (to my old eyeballs) keeping fully in mind that I'm not a video-phile, I don't "search for the chroma bug" or run test patterns and take measurments, I just watch and consider - making mental notes.

I do see motion artifacting , or should I say I seem to notice it more than some people do, but I'm not hyper about color temperature... anyway you get the idea. My point is (and I do have one) that I could get either unit at dealer cost and I don't feel compelled to own either, or should I say neither...

and I believe the average consumer feels the same way, in fact I know the average consumer feels the same way because they are not buying them.

it's just not a compelling product - either of them - at a consumer level

The average person still has not bought an HDTV yet either. What is market saturation? like 25%?

so, the early adopter of either format is a SMALL fraction of that.

[M.Roberts8]

This is a horrible time for Sony to get caught in another (ad nauseum) format war, they never win and never will win.

I have to disagree with this statement.No one thought that sony could take on nintendo when the first playstation was launched.
Then they thought sony couldn't compete with the microcrap xbox. The ps2's had extremely low production at first and allot of problems but there is still more of them than xbox's.
To right of the ps3 as a non factor would be a major mistake. I have had playstations since I was about 19 I am 30 now and I still game not as much as before but madden and ncaa football are sure things with me.
I am also into HT so a gaming console that does double duty as a HD disc player is just icing on the cake plus I can use the HD feature as bargainig chip with the gf :T "but honey it plays HD movies too!" Its also not that much more than the HD-DVD player and cheaper than the blu-ray player.

I have seen HD-DVD and blu-ray both and the load times on the HD-DVD player is awful. The first time I saw HD-DVD it was at a "magnolia" in best buy on a 80+" mitsubishi dlp tv and it was "Phantom of the Opera" which I had just recently watched on HBO or Showtime via sat. To tell you the truth I was really disappointed big time. I thought some of the colors looked richer and more vibrant but there was a "softness" to some scenes that I didn't remember. It was the graveyard scene which was foggy.
The colors looked just as good on the blu-ray display I saw which was playing "50 first dates" but still I wasn't blown away.
Blu-ray is supposedly switching to the newer codec so maybe that will change things. If I come across the article I will post a link.
All in all I dont see a clear winner right now or anytime soon for that matter.

[M.Roberts8]

Here is the link
I guess its mainly 20th century fox.

[ht_addict]

I have to disagree with this statement.No one thought that sony could take on nintendo when the first playstation was launched.
Then they thought sony couldn't compete with the microcrap xbox. The ps2's had extremely low production at first and allot of problems but there is still more of them than xbox's.
To right of the ps3 as a non factor would be a major mistake. I have had playstations since I was about 19 I am 30 now and I still game not as much as before but madden and ncaa football are sure things with me.
I am also into HT so a gaming console that does double duty as a HD disc player is just icing on the cake plus I can use the HD feature as bargainig chip with the gf :T "but honey it plays HD movies too!" Its also not that much more than the HD-DVD player and cheaper than the blu-ray player.

I have seen HD-DVD and blu-ray both and the load times on the HD-DVD player is awful. The first time I saw HD-DVD it was at a "magnolia" in best buy on a 80+" mitsubishi dlp tv and it was "Phantom of the Opera" which I had just recently watched on HBO or Showtime via sat. To tell you the truth I was really disappointed big time. I thought some of the colors looked richer and more vibrant but there was a "softness" to some scenes that I didn't remember. It was the graveyard scene which was foggy.
The colors looked just as good on the blu-ray display I saw which was playing "50 first dates" but still I wasn't blown away.
Blu-ray is supposedly switching to the newer codec so maybe that will change things. If I come across the article I will post a link.
All in all I dont see a clear winner right now or anytime soon for that matter.

Worst thing you could do is critique something running on a set at BB/CC or anyother big box store. Not to mention the Toshiba HD-DVD has already had a series off firmware upgrades to remedy a few issues as well as to implement Dolby TrueHD audio.

[Brandon B]

Not the most stunning lineup of titles at that link.

When are either format going to release an appreciable number of movies people might actually want?

BB

[M.Roberts8]

I did take into account where I was seeing it but unfortunatley I don't have much of a choice as the only non box stores around my area are in Chicago 90 miles away.
My point was simply I am not really all that impressed.
I currently dont have a HD display hoping to remedy that when I am done remodelig my living room. My brother was early on the HDTV display bandwagon he has a 65" mitsubishi diamond series with a dvdo iscan HD scaler and regular dvds look great. I was expecting to see a huge step-up from that to HD-DVD/blu-ray it just wasn't there for me.
If it was a jump in picture quality like I saw from watching a movie on his HDTV before the iscan and after the iscan one of us would probably own one of the formats already.
Like the saying goes, thats just my opinion and its exactly what you payed for it.

[Brandon B]

Well, well, lookee -Blu-Ray goes VC-1.

BB

[ht_addict]

Well, well, lookee -Blu-Ray goes VC-1.

BB

But can Blu-Ray offer backwards compatability with regular DVD players? NO. Check this out from the HD-DVD camp. Triple layer HD-DVD to offer 2 HD-DVD layers and 1 SD layer on same side of disc.

[George Bellefontaine]

That's good news and could well position Toshiba and the HD DVD camp in the winner's circle because I'm sure many would buy HD DVD disks now if they were compatible with their current standard def player. I know I for one would definitely buy them. It is a no risk situation ( regardless of who wins between Bluray and HD DVD ) as long as you can play them on your standard def player.

[aud19]

What George said :agree: HD-DVD keeps looking more and more like it's going to "win". Though I'm still not confident either will really win anything yet :roll:

[Brandon B]

But can Blu-Ray offer backwards compatability with regular DVD players? NO. Check this out from the HD-DVD camp. Triple layer HD-DVD to offer 2 HD-DVD layers and 1 SD layer on same side of disc.

So which do you prefer - single layer HD-DVD with overcompressed quality on the HD feature, or single layer DVD with over compressed quality on the regular def feature?

But ignoring that question, from last year:

JVC

JVC was showcasing their BD/DVD hybrid media (33.5GB), which was developed to ease the transition from DVD to Blu-ray by creating a disc that will play in both BD players and DVD players. The hybrid disc is basically a single-layer BD-ROM (25GB) and a dual-layer DVD-ROM (8.5GB) in the same disc, which can be read in both players as the Blu-ray layer is transparent to the red laser used in a conventional DVD player.

A JVC representative offered a live demonstration where he first put the hybrid disc in the BD player and played the video in high definition (HD), he then transferred the disc to the conventional DVD player which seamlessly played the same video in standard definition (SD). According to the JVC representative the BD/DVD hybrid will be part of the BD-ROM specification, which was also confirmed by a BDA representative at the show.

http://www.blu-ray.com/ifa2005/

ANd what's with the combativeness, anyway HT? I was just posting some info, and found it amusing that someone was offering VC-1 BD titles which you KNOW is giving Sony fits.

BB

[ht_addict]

So which do you prefer - single layer HD-DVD with overcompressed quality on the HD feature, or single layer DVD with over compressed quality on the regular def feature?

But ignoring that question, from last year:



http://www.blu-ray.com/ifa2005/

When has HD-DVD been said to be overcompressed?

ANd what's with the combativeness, anyway HT? I was just posting some info, and found it amusing that someone was offering VC-1 BD titles which you KNOW is giving Sony fits.

Whose been combative ;zx :f> :bash: :fight: :grab: :frypan: :B

[peterS]

But can Blu-Ray offer backwards compatability with regular DVD players? NO. Check this out from the HD-DVD camp. Triple layer HD-DVD to offer 2 HD-DVD layers and 1 SD layer on same side of disc.

um yes

[ht_addict]

um yes

So you can play BluRay disks on your SD dvd player? :rofl:

Straight from the BR page:

Can I play a Blu-ray Disc on my DVD player?
No. As DVD players use a red laser to read the information from a disc, they are not capable of reading the very fine pits of a Blu-ray Disc, which requires a blue laser. Furthermore, DVD-Video players lack the advanced technology to decode the High Definition picture from a Blu-ray Disc

[Brandon B]

Did you read the link in my last post? There is a BD/DVD hybrid that is readable by normal red laser DVD players, and it is part of the BD spec. It is equivalent to the dual format HD DVD format you posted, and has been released just as many times (zero).

When has HD-DVD been said to be overcompressed?

All the HD DVDs released thus far have been dual layer (30GB). In the hybrid you posted, either the HD portion has to be single layer (15GB) or the DVD layer does. So one or the other is going to look a little worse. Either way, it's a compromise. This applies to the TDK BD solution as well. The only purchaser who would not mind this is the one using the DVD layer for a portable situation like the minivan screen, but personally, my hidef disks aren't going out of the house, so I am not sure what percentage of the market that really is.

Come on, at least read before you retort.

BB

[David Meek]

Let's keep it civil folks.

HTG Administrator

[ht_addict]

Did you read the link in my last post? There is a BD/DVD hybrid that is readable by normal red laser DVD players, and it is part of the BD spec. It is equivalent to the dual format HD DVD format you posted, and has been released just as many times (zero).

Actually I did read your link and your correct that the HD-DVD/BR hybrids are currently at zero, but HD has been releasing a two layer disc which has had good reception in Japan and NA. So this new format just puts everything on one layer.

All the HD DVDs released thus far have been dual layer (30GB). In the hybrid you posted, either the HD portion has to be single layer (15GB) or the DVD layer does. So one or the other is going to look a little worse. Either way, it's a compromise. This applies to the TDK BD solution as well. The only purchaser who would not mind this is the one using the DVD layer for a portable situation like the minivan screen, but personally, my hidef disks aren't going out of the house, so I am not sure what percentage of the market that really is.

Come on, at least read before you retort.

BB

2+ hour movies are maybe 5-10% of the total available and alot off these can fit just nicely on a 4.7G single layer.

Backdraft 135min 4.37 gb
The Longest Yard, 123min, 4.29 gb
Phenomenom, 124 min, 4.29 gb
Son of the Bride, 123min, 4.25 gb
National Velvet 125min, 4.12 gb
A League of their Own, 128 min, 3.91 min
Emma, 121 min, 3.48 gb

Even if they had to compress on the single layer are the majority off owners of 27-25" SD tv's going too notice? Don't think so.

[Brandon B]

You lost me, HD-DVD has released a hybrid HD/SD disk in North America? I wasn't referring to BD/HD-DVD hybrids (?), but rather BD/DVD and he 3 layer HD-DVD/DVD being at zero.

Almost every DVD I have (300+) is dual layer. Technically, any movie CAN fit in a single layer. Wouldn't buy them though, unless they were something very short, like 70 minutes or so. They look like crap.

You're right, not an issue for the small screen SD CRT people, but one of the other groups they are targetting is those (like me) who are definitely going HD with one format or the other in the next year or so, and want to avoid knowingly double purchasing (i.e. I have not bought King Kong yet for this reason), but I would not buy a single layer compressed DVD version of that movie (ignoring that it is 3 hours, I realze it is a bad example from that standpoint, it is just the first to come to mind where I have made that decision).

So for me, the choice between a BD/DVD hybrid (where the BD movie is getting 25GB and the DVD is getting 8.5GB) and and HD-DVD/DVD hybrid (where either the HD layer is cut to 15GB or the DVD layer is crappy) would see me more likely go towards BD. And I fdon't think 25" SD se owners buy expensive HD hybrid disks, I think they pick up $7.99 copies at Walmart.

Anyway, my basic point is, there is an equivalent hybrid in the Blu-Ray camp, and it does suffer from being single layer in the BD area, but this is a smaller compromise with the 25GB/layer, and the DVD layers give full capacity.

Even more to the point though, I think the hybrid disks are an extremely insignificant factor in the format contest either way.

BB

[Brandon B]

Let's keep it civil folks.

HTG Administrator

Was I not? I certainly didn't feel HT was being anything other than civil.

BB

[Andrew M Ward]

So you can play BluRay disks on your SD dvd player? :rofl:
[/I]

I don't mean to be a rube;
but why in the world would you buy a Blu-Ray or HD-DVD disc if you didn't have one of the machines?

I'm sorry but that strikes me as odd... really odd

Key Point:
Nobody is buying either format in any kind of quantity... when PS3 launches I suppose that will change

But

Today, both formats are "sucking wind" :rofl: