High-Def Formats, Casualty of War

[Chris D]

An amusing/tragic story you guys can either relate to and/or laugh at:

- For Christmas, my well meaning in-laws gave me "V for Vendetta", which is a movie I really like and had on my wish list. Thing is, they gave it to me on HD-DVD, not knowing anything about current disc formats.

- Currently, I don't own a HD-DVD player, I have a BD player in my Playstation 3.

- Can I take it to a local store and exchange it for the same movie on BD? No, "V for Vendetta" is currently only available on HD-DVD.

- While my in-laws were here, they wanted to watch "V for Vendetta" on my big theater screen. Being unable to play the new HD-DVD, we went to a local movie store and rented it on standard DVD. Therefore, we paid to watch the movie in standard-def, even though I already owned it on HD.

- My wife was unable to watch it with us, but does want to see the movie. It's due back tomorrow, though, and we're out of time for today. So, I either (a) pay ANOTHER rental fee so she can watch the rental movie, (again in standard-def, when I already own the movie) or go out and buy a HD-DVD player, just so we can watch it in HD and use the disc I own.

:roll: I'm a casualty of the HD format wars. Certainly not the first, and certainly not the last.

[David Meek]

Wanna borrow my standard-def DVD?

Seriously though, we are all hostages of sorts to the competing high-def camps and their arrogance. I'm a hostage because I don't want to have to invest in two different players in order to own the movies I really want. I'm trying to hold out until a viable universal player is released - if ever.

[George Bellefontaine]

I'm a hostage because I don't want to have to invest in two different players in order to own the movies I really want. I'm trying to hold out until a viable universal player is released - if ever.

Yeah, same here. This format war thing really has me pissed. A lot of us are missing out on hi-def because of two greedy a-holes: Toshiba and Sony.

[Hdale85]

Well Toshiba was ok with creating a universal player a while back it was Sony that was being a greed a hole and said no.

[Nolan B]

even if you invested into both formats by buying two players I am convinced that for the APX $1000 (to buy both players) there is no other HT upgrade you could do today for 1k which would give you more return in quality home theater veiwing.

having said that I only own an HD DVD player because there are only 5 BD movies I would want to own.

[comeup]

Is it true that hd dvd can be played in both hd and sd format on a hd dvd player? and if that is true can a hd dvd disc be played on a standard dvd player?

[Nolan B]

Is it true that hd dvd can be played in both hd and sd format on a hd dvd player? and if that is true can a hd dvd disc be played on a standard dvd player?

HD DVDs can not be played on standard DVD players.

HD DVD players can play HD DVDs in 720p, 1080i, 1080p and can downconvert to 480p. HD DVD players can play standard DVDs.

Some HD DVDs (the actual disc) are known as Combo discs meaning on one side of the disc is the HD version and the other side has the SD version. The SD version is no different then a regular DVD and can be played in standard DVD players.

[Chris D]

Very true, which might add another wrinkle to my story above in that "V for Vendetta" is NOT a combo HD-DVD.

[comeup]

Good to know that might make me lean towards a HD DVD if they come out with more combo disc. We have an XBOX 360 now and thinking of getting the HD DVD ad on. I have over a thousand discs at home need a player that will play both formats. What about HDCP my monitor is not HDCP compatible I read somewhere that if your monitor is not HDCP it will not pickup the HD signal and would be down converted to a standard picture or no picture at all if thats true I believe the real reason for HDMI is to control what we do. Also for us that don't have HDCP compatibility it forces us to buy new monitors seems like a scam especially if you have a fairly new monitor without HDCP one would think that it would come with it. I just learned about this.

[Chris D]

Yes, that's one of the plus points about HD-DVD over Blu-Ray, although it doesn't seem to be making a difference to consumers right now. (on that note, it's my impression that NONE of the HD disc selling points are really making a difference to the vast public right now)

[Lex]

That pretty well sucks Chris. It is a drag for people trying to buy gifts, it's like, well I think he does HD, but I wonder which HD? Huh, there's 2?

I got a little confused by some of what is being said here. Blake, what would make you lean toward HD DVD? If you are saying because the HD DVD player can play your regular DVDs, well, supposedly the Sony can play regular DVDs. I am not sure about the HDCP thing. I seem to recall hearing some of this, well it is true the studios refused to release HD to the public without content control. We all know this is true, don't we? I mean the whoe reason of the conversion from component video HD sets to first DVI, now HDMI, was about content control, and prevention of someone recording HD content from an HD player, be it blue ray, HD DVD, or even HD from satelite or cable.

They are not going to give us material without full copy protection in HD format, they just won't. It is the equivilent of releasing studio masters to the public, and as such, they must be protected.

Oh, on the BD vs HD thing, well this one is heated, and I don't think the fight is going away any time soon.

even if you invested into both formats by buying two players I am convinced that for the APX $1000 (to buy both players) there is no other HT upgrade you could do today for 1k which would give you more return in quality home theater veiwing.

Vancouver, we all love to bicker and argue about stuff, putting that aside, I tend to agree, we, as one or two people, or even we as a forum collectively are not large enough to influence manufacturer actions, so we can either sit on the fence and wait, or we can jump in and enjoy content now, in all it's high definition glory. It's what we wanted at one time, right? We've got the diplays and prices coming down to a point where you can buy HD TVs and the HD/BD players BOTH for less than what the HD sets alone cost us 2 years ago. We are just moving some of that money to player investment from TV investment, and we can figure, one will win, either way, I have a player to handle both, can enjoy both, then when it settles down, I've got some of both yes. But I can still enjoy both now, and they can argue and bicker as long as they want to, in the end, the impact on us will be controlled.

[JonMarsh]

I have a player to handle both, can enjoy both, then when it settles down, I've got some of both yes. But I can still enjoy both now, and they can argue and bicker as long as they want to, in the end, the impact on us will be controlled.

Life's too short to sit on the fence (besides, as Brandon pointed out, it's kinda uncomfortable there.

Recalling what my first Sony DVD player cost (S7000, ThomasW still has that puppy), and what the subsequent Toshiba DVD player with DD decoding builit in cost (daughter has that one), current HD-DVD pricing isn't too bad. Have an XA1, and a Xbox 360 HD-DVD add on.

Still waiting on a decent BR player that has something better than just pass through support on advanced audio codecs; they're STILL working on the BR standards, and the final configuration seems due around June 2007.

Yeah, life's complicated, but what's the alternative?

[comeup]

LEX,

I want high def dvd but I want to be able to play the rest of my dvd collection when I do make the conversion. I didn't know Sony makes a blue-ray that plays regular dvd's (interesting) i'll have to look into this. From what i've seen from both they equally look good in my opinion. How does both formats stand up against a high end upconverting player like my Denon 3910 that cost more than both HD DVD & BLUE-RAY? I still will probably lean torwards HD DVD since I do have the XBOX 360.

[Nolan B]

Good to know that might make me lean towards a HD DVD if they come out with more combo disc. We have an XBOX 360 now and thinking of getting the HD DVD ad on. I have over a thousand discs at home need a player that will play both formats. What about HDCP my monitor is not HDCP compatible I read somewhere that if your monitor is not HDCP it will not pickup the HD signal and would be down converted to a standard picture or no picture at all if thats true I believe the real reason for HDMI is to control what we do. Also for us that don't have HDCP compatibility it forces us to buy new monitors seems like a scam especially if you have a fairly new monitor without HDCP one would think that it would come with it. I just learned about this.

HDCP has not been enabled for HD DVD as of yet, and may never. Right now you are safe.

[comeup]

I didn't find out about this HDCP thing until I bought my ViewSonic HD 22' monitor. Someone asked was it HDCP and I responded what is that then I did my research and learned a little about it and found out that my monitor is not HDCP compatible. It has a DVI connector why wouldn't ViewSonic make it HDCP Compatible? (so we will buy another monitor in the future). If HDCP is put on the HD discs alot of us will be upgrading.


Vancouver, I hope your right

[comeup]

Info on HDCP

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-Bandwidth_Digital_Content_Protection

[Lex]

I have an S7000 too Jon, DVD first came out I think around Jan or 1997, maybe it was as late as March. The S7000 was the first player available and retailed for 1000.00. I bought mine by June 1997. DVD picken's were slim! But there were some titles, among the first of which was Twister I think. It was fun being in on the innovator stage of this product introduction. Video displays were a ways behind the products for the most part with S-video the video cable of choice.

Anyway, I keep mine for a backup CD transport. There were several people buying them in 1997-1998 for CD transport alone, they were that good, and with seperate optics for both, it was understandably so. Quite mechanics, low vibration, excellent isolation. Made it as good as many CD players costing much more I think. I loved the ergonomics on it as well, though the drop down door was a little slow.

Anyway, I agree with Jon, life is to short to sit idly by and let the others have the fun.

Blake, the Sony BDP-S1 player does handle standard DVD, verified.

[Nolan B]

Vancouver, I hope your right

I am. For now HDCP has not been enabled for HD DVD. HD DVD is also region free.

[Nolan B]

LEX,

I want high def dvd but I want to be able to play the rest of my dvd collection when I do make the conversion. I didn't know Sony makes a blue-ray that plays regular dvd's (interesting) i'll have to look into this. From what i've seen from both they equally look good in my opinion. How does both formats stand up against a high end upconverting player like my Denon 3910 that cost more than both HD DVD & BLUE-RAY? I still will probably lean torwards HD DVD since I do have the XBOX 360.

My personal opinion. HD DVD looks better then the most money you could possibly spend on upconverting a DVD.

The Xbox 360 has got very good reviews in terms of HD DVD video quality. Keep in mind you wont experience the next gen sound formats, however, I have read that there may be an update that will down convert DD+ to DTS very soon for the 360 which will definately offer an improvement.

Another plus is that the Xbox 360 ouputs 1080p via its VGA if thats important to you.

[gostan]

Chris:

I am sure that there must be many hddvd's and bd's being returned this holiday season. Bummer.

By the way, I thought that you were going to be reviewing the Brian DiPalma movie of the same title: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0097027/

[George Bellefontaine]

Anyway, I agree with Jon, life is to short to sit idly by and let the others have the fun.

I used to have that philosophy, too, when I was gainfully employed. But when you are retired and on a fixed income, philosophys have a way of changing. Yeah, life is short, especially at my age ( 70 ) but I am not about to spend umpteen dollars on two players. The whole format war is just plain ridiculous IMHO and is keeping many average Joes from going the hi-def route. So as uncomfortable as sitting on the fence may be, there I will remain.

[Kevin P]

I agree with George. Life may be short, but I've survived 40 years without high-definition DVDs so far, and I can surely continue to do so for another year or two while the dust settles.

I'd rather wait until the 2nd or 3rd generation players come out. By then, they'll be cheaper, and the bugs will be worked out by then, not to mention performance issues. Also, by then, one format will likely have won out over the other (I'm betting on HD-DVD), or a good universal player will come out.

Also, I want to see what happens with this HDCP quagmire. Right now, no discs are HDCP-enabled, but we'll see how long that continues. Hopefully it'll stay that way, or maybe only a few discs will have HDCP and the studios will realize how stupid it is after seeing sales and piracy figures. I for one don't want to replace a bunch of my equipment just because the studios are paranoid, or tear my soffit apart to run HDMI cable, or have to resort to illegal tactics to watch (yes, watch, not pirate) protected discs on my existing equipment. What's ironic is, if discs start using HDCP, a lot of us would have to acquire pirated copies in order to watch them on our existing equipment.

I just have to hope that no one accidently gives me a HD copy of a movie as a gift. I would have to exchange it, or hang on to it until I get a player. It's like when someone gives me a "full screen" version of a movie instead of the correct version. :roll:

In the meantime, I'll enjoy my 480p scaled to 720p on my CRT projector.

But in your case Chris, think of it as an excuse to pick up an Xbox360. :B

[Lex]

The two sides it seems are getting to firmly entrenched I believe for their to be a clear winner. it's looking more and more like DVD Audio and SACD, both will live, until both die either to lack of interest/use or are obsoleted by next generation products.

With BD included in Playstation3, Sony has to much riding on BD, and will not fold. The fact the user does not have to buy a secondary box weighs in favor of BD. (why people call it BD and not BR is beyond me.)

[George Bellefontaine]

If there is to be no clear winner, then a player that plays both formats is the only way I see any kind of acceptance by Joe Public. If they came out with one tomorrow, I'd be first in line to buy one.

[Evil Twin]

I just have to hope that no one accidently gives me a HD copy of a movie as a gift. I would have to exchange it, or hang on to it until I get a player. It's like when someone gives me a "full screen" version of a movie instead of the correct version.

If you can provide an interstellar freight routing service number, I'm sure we can arrange a small shipment of HD-DVD disks to suitably modify your priorities. :twisted:

[JonMarsh]

I'd rather wait until the 2nd or 3rd generation players come out. By then, they'll be cheaper, and the bugs will be worked out by then, not to mention performance issues. Also, by then, one format will likely have won out over the other (I'm betting on HD-DVD), or a good universal player will come out.

Also, I want to see what happens with this HDCP quagmire. Right now, no discs are HDCP-enabled, but we'll see how long that continues. Hopefully it'll stay that way, or maybe only a few discs will have HDCP and the studios will realize how stupid it is after seeing sales and piracy figures. I for one don't want to replace a bunch of my equipment just because the studios are paranoid, or tear my soffit apart to run HDMI cable, or have to resort to illegal tactics to watch (yes, watch, not pirate) protected discs on my existing equipment. What's ironic is, if discs start using HDCP, a lot of us would have to acquire pirated copies in order to watch them on our existing equipment.

I just have to hope that no one accidently gives me a HD copy of a movie as a gift. I would have to exchange it, or hang on to it until I get a player. It's like when someone gives me a "full screen" version of a movie instead of the correct version. :roll:

In the meantime, I'll enjoy my 480p scaled to 720p on my CRT projector.

But in your case Chris, think of it as an excuse to pick up an Xbox360. :B

2nd Gen HD-DVD players are out- from Toshiba, more in January.

It's not whether the disks are HDCP enabled- they all are, and only with a DVI or HDMI input with HDCP can you watch on the digital output.

However, at this time, the ICT (Image Constraint Token) is not being set on any disks- this controls whether the analog output (on component or VGA) can be full resultion or must be downrezzed from 1080P to 540P. There's much speculation about how long the disk folks will go this way.

Another nice thing about the first and I believe, 2nd Gen HD-DVD players is that there's no regional coding. BR does have region encoding in place, though.

I have an Oppo Digital 971 player, which does a pretty nice job of upscaling to DVI, but my Toshiba XA1 seems to do an even better job, so the Oppo is going to my daughter this week to use with the Westinghouse 1080P display which should be delivered for her today to my home. It's the baby 37", but it should work well at her place, and being a Comcast employee, she's got the platinum service set top box, and doesn't need an HD tuner. Maybe we'll find enough time to load the 2.0 Toshiba firmware and watch an HD movie at her place. I'm not sure most of what I've got would appeal to her; not many romantic comedies!

Christmas isn't over yet by anymeans! We really believe in the 12 days of Christmas around Casa de Juan.

Dad has a new Samsung desktop HDCP enabled 1920X1200 display on the way (DVI, Component, VGA inputs) as well as some more Accuton drivers for the new three way design study for Duelund crossovers.

Unfortunately, next week (Jan 8) it's back to work and reality! Hopefully by then I'll be over this cold I picked up New Years Eve.

[Lex]

George, I believe you will get your wish sometime next year, guessing. Public pressure will likely force Tosh and Sony to support dual disc players. Don't you think so Jon?

[Hdale85]

I think thats whats going to happen as well. Especially with the new chip that was developed to play both. I believe they are just trying to get some bylaw changed in the formats to allow a dual format player.

I went to walmart the other day and on the shelf they had an HD-A2 and some Panasonic (i think it was.) Blu-Ray player.

Edit: Just looked it up and it was a Phillips player. Costs more then the Samsung though at 898 bucks. The fact that Walmart carries next gen players says something I guess?

[Kevin P]

If you can provide an interstellar freight routing service number, I'm sure we can arrange a small shipment of HD-DVD disks to suitably modify your priorities. :twisted:

Sure, throw in a free player as well and I'll rethink my stance. :B

As for the HDCP thing, yes it's the ICT that JonMarsh mentioned that's currently not set on current discs. But, if they start flipping that bit, then HDCP becomes the issue as I'd have to "illegally" circumvent it to watch movies in HD on my CRT.

With no ICT: I buy player, I buy a CatCables Tigress, plug into an open switched component video input on my pre-pro, and I'm good to go.

With ICT and HDCP: I would have to tear a wall apart to run a HDMI cable from the gear cabinet to the plasma. If I want to stay legal, I can only watch in HD on my 50" plasma, not on my 6-foot wide screen w/CRT projector. If I go illegal, I would have to get a black box to either strip HDCP or convert to component or RGB, or download pirated unencrypted copies of movies, hardly what the studios would want me to do. Or replace a perfectly good projector with a little digital box with lesser image quality, and then have to run a HDMI cable through a concrete slab to get the studio-sanctioned, encrypted, Fort Knox locked down digital video signal to said little digital box.

Whoever invented the HDMI spec should have specified good old regular RG6 coax as the cable of choice instead of YASPC (Yet Another Special Proprietary Cable). I've got plenty of that in my walls.

One last little tidbit to add: the format that succeeds will likely be the format that has the Star Wars movies released to it first.

[Hdale85]

Have they said what format it will be on? Thats probably when I will buy the Starwars set is when its on a hidef format.

[Lex]

Lucus is so funny about his stuff, you may never see Star Wars in high def-

[basementjack]

Chris, I'm surprised you have a PS3, but not an Xbox 360. If you like games, there a ton of good titles on the 360 right now.

[Lex]

Actually Jack is right. The beauty of the 360 is you can buy last year's games too, at less than 30.00 each. Example, PGR 3 I have had such a BLAST with since Christmas cost me 30.00. Not bad, not bad at all. In fact, I have not bought a game over 30.00 for Xbox 360. Even got PGR 2 at BB which is a first gen platform for 10 bucks the other day. I figured for 10.00 would be worth checking out.

Chris wanted what was new and hot I guess, like most others, the PS3. It was the hot ticket this year. But then some people buy PS3 on the basis of Sony's gaming reputation with PS and PSII. Their prior systems really were rock solid.

[Chris D]

Chris: By the way, I thought that you were going to be reviewing the Brian DiPalma movie of the same title: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0097027/

Aha! I haven't seen that movie for quite some time.

(why people call it BD and not BR is beyond me.)

BD stands for Blu-Ray Disc.

the format that succeeds will likely be the format that has the Star Wars movies released to it first.

Very likely so, or if not, a good chance it will be the one that releases the first "gotta have" blockbuster like the Matrix trilogy or Lord of the Rings trilogy, unless the other format counters with another blockbuster at the same time.

As for Star Wars, Lucas originally refused to put out any SW movies on DVD until they could be released in HD. I think we'll DEFINITELY see them in HD, it's just a question of when and what format. Perhaps he's waiting through the format war like many others.

Chris, I'm surprised you have a PS3, but not an Xbox 360. If you like games, there a ton of good titles on the 360 right now.

Ah, I wish I had the money for several! However, I chose the PS3 for many reasons, such as the technology, game quality, BD capability, and ability to play 100% of old PS games.

If I had the money, I'd get an X360 for sure, too.

[Lex]

Well, why not BRD then, huh huh huh?

[wildfire99]

While my in-laws were here, they wanted to watch "V for Vendetta" on my big theater screen. Being unable to play the new HD-DVD, we went to a local movie store and rented it on standard DVD. Therefore, we paid to watch the movie in standard-def, even though I already owned it on HD.

Though I'm coming to the party late, I have to say that you weren't really a victim of the format wars. Instead, you were a victim of the current media industry licensing scheme. You don't own anything, you only lease the physical, plastic (and metal) circle it's on.

Edit: Just to be productive and not be a total whiner here's my actual solution to this problem. I intend to just spend the money I'd have spent rebuying/triple dipping on discs and purchase a BR player as well as an HD-DVD player. That way, I can watch whatever I want, and not worry about it. When a format winner emerges, if it emerges, then I might start to buy media again. Until then I have no real need to 'own' titles as long as Netflix or a competitor exists.

I know that makes me a pirate/communist/file sharer to the movie studios, who won't see my revenue from movie sales, but I do know they are smart enough to understand what their customers are doing and why. Whether or not lack of sales will be enough to motivate studios/IP owners to do the right thing and make money remains to be seen.

(I still can't believe how many companies walk away from cash on the table because they can't be bothered to pick it up. I literally do not have a HD-DVD player or a BR player right now simply because after 2 weeks of haranguing a sales person at a popular online store, they failed to call me back or email me back with a price for items listed on their site as 'call' and never offered any other models despite my request, except discontinued models.)

Warning: More drum beating on media monopolists below

If the industry could figure out how to force you to pay the rental fee for every showing of the movie, including a 10 cent fee for pausing, you know they would. Though the format wars are terrible (especially since they only hurt the consumer as you're only buying the physical disc itself anyway), it's eventually the outdated intellectual property 'protection' schemes that are at fault.

Ideally, you should have been able to download the movie to your PS3 in any format you please, be it VC-1 or MPEG2, because the movie itself is what you are leasing, not a plastic disc.

Just be grateful your disc wasn't broken, or you'd find out what you really 'bought'. Or if you think that your poor transfer of 'Fifth Element' somehow gets you a discount on the fifth re-release. Or that your multi-thousand dollar investment in regular DVD means anything once the industry moves to a new format.

(Yes, I've been burned by double-dips, bad discs, format problems, and price inflation, plus the impending trash binning of my SD DVD collection. As are we all.)

I'm just tired of all this media protection silliness and adolescent territorial marking by large corporations that you'd think already learned how to socialize on the playground. Meanwhile, I'm *still* waiting for some titles to be released on DVD or any digital media at all, and for others that have gone 'out of print', even though nothing was ever printed except sleeve art, to be available again.

I don't care what format the movie comes on, as long as I can actually get it for a decent price and keep it that way. Actually, that reminds me that we haven't even seen the start of license revocations. How about buying 'V' on blu-ray and then having it stop working a year or 2 from now because some bored kid in Indonesia cracked the key?

Oops.. that'll be a $10 disc replacement fee. And you have to send in your original receipt to prove you bought it. And sign a document saying you'd never cause the studio any financial loss by having a dodgy disc.

None of this has to do with format wars. We can have a movie released on any media that is available, or even downloaded, and disc pressing is just not that expensive. This is all cash grabs and people protecting their guaranteed income streams. What other industry but the media industry actually goes out and gets legislation requiring consumers to pay them usage fees (such as blank media surcharges) in the absence of actually buying product? Even the monopolist telcos couldn't bill people without telephones just because they 'might' be using the phone lines somehow.

I love film, and I think it's an art form that warrants protection. But make no mistake, this is all a business to the people making film, including Darth Lucas. That means whatever makes the most money wins, not what makes the fans happy or is best for the field. Fortunately the interweb, including YouTube, is leveling the playing field. At least until they get legislated under too.

I just went back to listing an item on Ebay, and after seeing the ridiculous amount of nickel-and-dime fees, plus watching that terrible documentary about the bay on CNBC (I think), and then the repeat of Frontline's documentary on Wal-Mart, I have severe doubts about the ability of corporations to sustain their markets before imploding, and that includes the largest conglomerates in existence, which are record and movie studios. The format war is the least of our worries, since for now you can sort of get the movie at least in some way.

No matter what format wins or what side you're on, you're only spending money to rent a video in the short run. And it's probably a rate of depreciation that makes computer equipment look like a good investment. I don't feel good about any of it, which is why I already made the choice to rent only and not to buy anymore. Except the studios will just make renting illegal, since it doesn't increase their revenue.

I think I'm almost starting to get paranoid.

[comeup]

Sure, throw in a free player as well and I'll rethink my stance. :B

As for the HDCP thing, yes it's the ICT that JonMarsh mentioned that's currently not set on current discs. But, if they start flipping that bit, then HDCP becomes the issue as I'd have to "illegally" circumvent it to watch movies in HD on my CRT.

With no ICT: I buy player, I buy a CatCables Tigress, plug into an open switched component video input on my pre-pro, and I'm good to go.

With ICT and HDCP: I would have to tear a wall apart to run a HDMI cable from the gear cabinet to the plasma. If I want to stay legal, I can only watch in HD on my 50" plasma, not on my 6-foot wide screen w/CRT projector. If I go illegal, I would have to get a black box to either strip HDCP or convert to component or RGB, or download pirated unencrypted copies of movies, hardly what the studios would want me to do. Or replace a perfectly good projector with a little digital box with lesser image quality, and then have to run a HDMI cable through a concrete slab to get the studio-sanctioned, encrypted, Fort Knox locked down digital video signal to said little digital box.

Whoever invented the HDMI spec should have specified good old regular RG6 coax as the cable of choice instead of YASPC (Yet Another Special Proprietary Cable). I've got plenty of that in my walls.

One last little tidbit to add: the format that succeeds will likely be the format that has the Star Wars movies released to it first.

Kevin P.


You tought me some naughty stuff here :evil:

[Hdale85]

Well, why not BRD then, huh huh huh?

Cause people would call it Bird or something stupid...lol

I can just imagine walking into walmart and hearing some guy saying "do you guys have the bird ray player?"