Subwoofer demands (first time sub buyer)

[kgveteran]

Do you feel that the consumer market is flooded with subwoofer designs that don't even come close to meeting the demands of most movies.

My thought is that the average person is unaware of the demand put on a subwoofer when the electronics are crossing over all the bass from six or seven channels plus the LFE channel.

Next this person puts this subwoofer in his system and expects chest thumping bass from 12' to 15' away.I see it mostly in the poor soul who is trolling for a 500.00 sub for his new video room.While 500.00 subs have passable bass responses, once you begin to extend the demand by crossing over all channels at 80hz the potential this once promissing sub had is now gone.

Where am I going with all of this...........education.Sticky threads for first time buyers on this subject.Some kind of thread that can offer a broad outline of supply and demand.Lets put our heads together so the reoccurring post of the first time sub buyer can get a quick or lenthy explaination of what he should expect......Your thoughts

[PewterTA]

I think this is more just the way society and everything works though...

Everyone is looking for the BEST deals. So places like BestBuy, Circuit City, Tweeter, etc. are there to cover people... Most people see the subs these places carry and are content with them...because they mostly have JVC, Sony, Bose, Yamaha, Pioneer systems. So they are looking to match the price of their entire system.

I mean if you think about it, if you spend roughly say 1000K on your system, why would someone then spend 1000 on just one component (ie subwoofer). It just doesn't make sense.

It's when people start entering the world of HIGH-FI that they realize that the smaller subs just don't suffice...and you have to move towards a better sub. The sub, however, is often the first thing that starts pushing people to the realm of high-fi (without really knowing it), because it is "often" the weakest link.

Now with that said... there are exceptions, the SVS PB10-ISD for ~$450 is one of the most amazing subs I've ever heard and felt for that price line... Will it shake the walls and foundation...well to be honest, set up correctly and not too big of a room, yep it will. But the bigger area you have, the more subwoofer you need, it's all science after that... and you need to step up into the 1K realm and beyond for subwoofers. But at the same time, you should also be working towards upgrading your speakers, amps, pre, CD, DVD, display at the same time...

Great bass isn't the whole experience to home theaters... it's just a small portion (hence the .1 as I like to say).

But the main couple points that would need to be said is this...

-Sealed subs work better for music, ported better for movies.
-Nominal 12" subs will give you the best overall sound, anything smaller is pushing the limits of what a sub can do (which is to move air). There are some good 10" ones, but never go below that.
-Power is a must... you need it to move the speaker quickly and thoroughly, so get a good power rating (300watts example).
-A good sub should be felt, not heard. Often people coming in think that subs are these big boomy things that they hear in cars riding down the road (which I don't know how those kids stand that)...when it's more about a tactile feel, then annoying boominess.
-A quality sub, should disappear in your sound stage, you should not be able to point out where the sub is located, nor indicate where the frequences of your main speakers end and your sub begins.
-Location, location, location. That can't be expressed enough...subs are very sensitive to where they are located. Corner loading them often gives much more DBs, but can lead to the muddy sound, where sometimes aligning them along a wall in the middle works much better.
-Calibration, calibration, and more Calibration. An SPL meter and setup DVD (Avia and the like) is essential since we are unable to properly calibrate the sub (nor any speakers for that matter).

Subs...one of the more difficult things when it comes to home theaters, making them sound like they belong there, is the hard part.

[gianni]

I think this is more just the way society and everything works though...

Everyone is looking for the BEST deals. So places like BestBuy, Circuit City, Tweeter, etc. are there to cover people... Most people see the subs these places carry and are content with them...because they mostly have JVC, Sony, Bose, Yamaha, Pioneer systems. So they are looking to match the price of their entire system.

I mean if you think about it, if you spend roughly say 1000K on your system, why would someone then spend 1000 on just one component (ie subwoofer). It just doesn't make sense.

It's when people start entering the world of HIGH-FI that they realize that the smaller subs just don't suffice...and you have to move towards a better sub. The sub, however, is often the first thing that starts pushing people to the realm of high-fi (without really knowing it), because it is "often" the weakest link.

Now with that said... there are exceptions, the SVS PB10-ISD for ~$450 is one of the most amazing subs I've ever heard and felt for that price line... Will it shake the walls and foundation...well to be honest, set up correctly and not too big of a room, yep it will. But the bigger area you have, the more subwoofer you need, it's all science after that... and you need to step up into the 1K realm and beyond for subwoofers. But at the same time, you should also be working towards upgrading your speakers, amps, pre, CD, DVD, display at the same time...

Great bass isn't the whole experience to home theaters... it's just a small portion (hence the .1 as I like to say).

But the main couple points that would need to be said is this...

-Sealed subs work better for music, ported better for movies.
-Nominal 12" subs will give you the best overall sound, anything smaller is pushing the limits of what a sub can do (which is to move air). There are some good 10" ones, but never go below that.
-Power is a must... you need it to move the speaker quickly and thoroughly, so get a good power rating (300watts example).
-A good sub should be felt, not heard. Often people coming in think that subs are these big boomy things that they hear in cars riding down the road (which I don't know how those kids stand that)...when it's more about a tactile feel, then annoying boominess.
-A quality sub, should disappear in your sound stage, you should not be able to point out where the sub is located, nor indicate where the frequences of your main speakers end and your sub begins.
-Location, location, location. That can't be expressed enough...subs are very sensitive to where they are located. Corner loading them often gives much more DBs, but can lead to the muddy sound, where sometimes aligning them along a wall in the middle works much better.
-Calibration, calibration, and more Calibration. An SPL meter and setup DVD (Avia and the like) is essential since we are unable to properly calibrate the sub (nor any speakers for that matter).

Subs...one of the more difficult things when it comes to home theaters, making them sound like they belong there, is the hard part.

To add to this list:

-Consider 2 subs - you may get better in room response.
-Look at many of the new models w/ EQ.

[jim777]

To add to this list:

-Consider 2 subs - you may get better in room response.
-Look at many of the new models w/ EQ.

For the 2 subs, that's true. Better listener envelopment. Should be at least tried each side of the room instead of both in front. They don't stop speaking about 2 subs in stereo (and even more) at the AES...

Anyway I prefer 2 floorstanders to 2 bookshelfs + 1 sub. The same must be true with 2 subs vs 1.

The question is for the same price, lets say 2k$, 1 sub or 2 ?

[RobP]

My wife and I were discussing the same issue about a week ago. We have a Parade of Homes tour here twice a year that we always attend to see the latest trends in the city. We visited this 1.5 million dollar home that had a "Home Theatre" featured. The decor was nice but the sound and display was utterly terrible. This home was packed with visitors, every person that walked in that room while we were there was just amazed with what they hearing. They had some off brand speakers mounted on the wall with this little cube subwoofer that resembled a Bose model chugging away in the corner sounding like a lead whisky jug blowing solo in a hillbilly speedmetal band. The worst part of it all that there was a person handing out business cards hoping to bring this dread to other peoples homes.
Unfortunately, these poor souls have been told by big box stores and great marketing campaigns that this is what good sound is. Its all about education of the consumer.

[kgveteran]

Then something must be done to inform folks of this. How does a sticky become a sticky.I think its worth while.

[jim777]

Then something must be done to inform folks of this. How does a sticky become a sticky.I think its worth while.

1- Forums like this one are there for those who *want* to be informed
2- The admin decides what is sticky and this thread won't do the trick. Anyway, newer threads like this one are already on the top of the list until no one replies to it anymore.

BTW, maybe you can never have too much bass "capability" but alot of systems I heard have too much bass period. Anyway I guess that 0.001% of sub owners used a SPL meter for calibration plus knowing what they were doing with it... (and near 100% of those 0.001% people probably being on htguide :B )

[whoaru99]

I've been trying to integrate two subs into my system and am having a hard time making it work. Cancellation issues, placement since they are both fairly large, etc.

I still have both subs, but am running just one. They are Paradigm Servo 15 (v1) and Definitive Tech PF-1500.

Currently using the Paradigm as it goes lower and is stronger overall than the Definitive.

[kgveteran]

(Quote)BTW, maybe you can never have too much bass "capability" but alot of systems I heard have too much bass period. Anyway I guess that 0.001% of sub owners used a SPL meter for calibration plus knowing what they were doing with it... (and near 100% of those 0.001% people probably being on htguide )

I can understand what you are saying about the bass in many systems today.Am I to understand that no one uses an SPL meter, pluys knowing what they were doing? I'm not sure I follow that last thing.

WhoarU99,
If you plan on using two subs you should be getting 6db more output if one is calibrated correctly and the second is next to it.If you plan on using two subs and in different locations the bass will not increase as much as blend better with the room and be more even throughout the listening positions.

[jim777]

just joking to see if you were as bass freak

[Tha Freak]

...with this little cube subwoofer that resembled a Bose model chugging away in the corner sounding like a lead whisky jug blowing solo in a hillbilly speedmetal band...

:rofl: that's just :rofl: the best one... :rofl:

[ThomasW]

If you plan on using two subs you should be getting 6db more output if one is calibrated correctly and the second is next to it.

Calibration has no relationship to increased output from multiple subs.

One gains +3dB of output from acoustic coupling when drivers are placed within 1/2 wavelength of each other.

Then one gains an additional +3dB of output, only if the amplifier powering the subs 'doubles down' with regard to it's output power with the addition of the second driver.

[PewterTA]

Also to consider is that the subs (if not co-located), must be made to be in phase with each other. ...and even when co-located, should still be slightly adjusted so they don't cancel the waves out....

[jim777]

Also to consider is that the subs (if not co-located), must be made to be in phase with each other. ...and even when co-located, should still be slightly adjusted so they don't cancel the waves out....

You can't adjust for all room modes like that. Two subs can give you half the number of room modes (in mono), but you can't avoid cancellation at all frequencies. And two co-located subs don't give any advantage over only one sub. Two subs, in stereo (not 2x mono), one each side of the room (given you always face your head forward), gives you both a pressure and a velocity field that isn't possible with only one sub, and that's the technical reason for 2 subs. For more scientific details, do a search for Griesinger, he's a one of many experts on this and much more.

[kgveteran]

Yes, eggzackly what you guys said.

[Rolyasm]

Just reading the part about .001% actually calibrating their bass correctly. I have been one of those in the past but soon hope to join the ranks of the few and the proud. Has anyone ever posted a good solid thread about the step by step procedure to calibrate and use the SPL meter correctly? Sure would be helpful to a lot of the bottom feeders in here, like myself. Most of the knowledge in here is highly intense and us poor souls with small brains have to struggle to keep up. Good post. thanks
roly

[Shane Martin]

-Look at many of the new models w/ EQ.

There are EQ's available for extra(Velodyne and the one that AV123 sells do the trick). You can also use a BFD if you are an experienced HT person. An EQ is not something you need to buy ON the sub. It is an extra. Besides the subs with the sophisticated EQ's are typically far more expensive than other designs.

We can't also forget that some of the newest room eq's like the Audyssey do EQ the sub.