The 'cymbal' effect!

[madmac]

Hi All,

Would like to discuss the 'cymbal' effect in regards to digital audio......specifically in regards to digital audio......everything from MP3 format to hi-res formats like 96/24khz reproduction.

Lately, I've been listening to music via my Samsung Note II phone at night (Convenient and with variety!) via my higher end Grado headphones in MP3 format and I've noticed that the high frequency end of things (ie...cymbals) are what I can describe as 'dirty'. Being a musician I have heard cymbal's in many 'live' situations and the whole timbre and decay that happens live is missing in this digital format. It basically sounds like a 'dirty' crash with little or no decay.

Obviously in higher end formats like SACD or DVD audio, the cymbals sound more or less better with a certain amount of 'believe-ability' in their sound....timber and slow decay. The rest of the audio seems to sound remarkibly fine in MP3 otherwise though!.

I wonder why cymbal crashes seem to suffer in the lower end digital formats??.

[mjb]

I wonder why cymbal crashes seem to suffer in the lower end digital formats??.

Because a cymbal crash covers practically DC to light (simultaneously) with an extremely fast attack and slow decay. Exactly where a lossy format is going to cut corners. It's actually amazing how much data you can throw away, but still recognize a cymbal, albeit one thats "not quite right".

[JonMarsh]

That's certainly a BIG part of it for MP3's. For nominally higher quality digital, it can still be a problem. But then, it's also in a frequency range where the ear is quite sensitive, and jitter in the playback as well as recording system has a big effect.

And don't forget what compressors and limiters in the signal chain can do to mangle the sound-

On top of that, it's in a range where many microphones and playback devices (speakers and earphones) can have issues, not just in the obvious frequency response, but with resonance amplification of distortion projects. This causes increased IM, in my experience. As dome tweeters go, for example, two things seem to make the biggest difference in the sound quality- the inherent linearity of the motor structure, and how high up the inherent cone breakup resonance is. Scanspeak makes a lot of tweeters with good motor structures, but it takes something like BeO to push the resonant break up well above 30 kHz. Also, the first time you hear a diamond tweeter and realize what you aren't hearing, you'll appreciate the typical upper break up mode being pushed up to between 50 and 100 kHz. You can't hear that high, but the typical resonance in the 25 kHz to 30 kHz area causes audible problems, IME, in the range you can hear.

[PewterTA]

I really have to agree with Jon on the Diamond Tweeter part. Even though the B&W 802D2s not the best diamond tweeter out there. That's probably the first thing people say about my speakers... "Wow, that Tweeter is something special, I've never heard cymbals so life like and yet not being harsh or overly bright."

What's funny is back in '96 when I started messing around with Mp3s, that was my first issue with them is the fact that cymbals suffered the most with compression. Now there's different versions of Mp3 encoders and some do things better than others. That's why I'm still (if I ever really do anymore) covert to Mp3 I still use Lame 3.98.4 because with the settings I use, mp3s come out much better in the high end. It's taken me a few years to find the best sound out of an mp3...and that was just at the time I realized how much better lossless was.

Luckily, storage is starting to get ahead of the curve to how large our hi-res files are. I'd say within another year or so our "portable" music systems, phones, whatever, will basically have the storage capabilities to really hold large amounts of hi-res files on them. Which is what I'm happy to have happen!

[madmac]

Call me old school but......I still can't get over the fact that music can be played from a 'static' hard drive or SD micro card!. I grew up with stuff moving or spinning to produce sound (ie...cassette tape....vinyl....spinning CD's). I know your all laughing now but every time I listen to MP3 music on my phone, I stare at it and go.........FASCINATING !!.......nothing's moving!!??.

But back to topic......the cymbal crashes are very noticeably wrong......but of course, not so bad as they are not recognizable.

[JonMarsh]

Yeah, recognizable as something more resembling sandpaper than metal? :W

You can get good cymbals on digital- even from standard CD's. But the DAC and source are critical. Keep in mind that people also play games with the gain structure on mixers (see my post re video for Neve plugin on Audio Hideout) and do this to create dynamic limiting (but with added distortion) without even using a separate compressor.

Some disks with great cymbals include "Flute Dreams", "The King James Version", "Just a little Lovin'", "Ambrosia", some of the Police disks and Animal Logic. There are many others. But forget MP3's, and forget the DAC's in most portable players. I've been messing around with music playback from dedicated PC's and Macs since the early 2000's, but now use a dedicated music server with an ARM processor and dedicated digital output section. DAC separately...

[madmac]

Of course, all 24 bit sources from DVD audio and Blu Ray produce excellent high frequency reproduction and the cymbals sound correct. I just watched Diana Krall, Live in Rio and was very impressed with the audio across the board!.

However, my MP3 stuff does not cut it with the cymbals !!. Understandable really, both with the medium and the headphones playing it.

[Lex]

to much compression would be your problem. Cymbals are very relaxed sounds, that extend, and taper after a resounding tap to start. That's a lot of detail to capture.

[Alaric]

Funny this should come up now. Since getting my gear back I've noticed cymbals sound much better , especially on material that sounds iffy on lower grade equipment. Nirvana's Nevermind album is one example. Most of the times I've heard that album it has sounded awful , except for a 180 gm Japanese vinyl pressing that sounded very good. My CD player manages to do a decent job with it , also , with the cymbals being a notable point. The decay actually sounds like a high hat has been hit , with a very dimensional , "full" tone , instead of the flat and brittle sound common to digital reproductions. I think Doug nailed it. I burn my own CDs from uncompressed files. MP3s make me cringe enough to delete them if they show up in my computer. (usually from syncing family member's portable music gizmos)
The above being stated with the limitations of my aluminum tweeters in mind! (Although , they are pretty good speakers , all things considered)

[jim1961]

When I added a outboard DAC, cymbals was one of the things that I noticed improved the most. Getting natural sounding highs is an area where digital can struggle, especially lower grade sources such as mp3.