DVD Players....

[BladeRnR]

Ok LEVESQUE I can honestly say you've lost the plot and the point of this discussion.

Any Audiophile can OBVIOUSLY see our space is limited and therefore our equipment is not performing under optimal conditions. You seem relentless in trying to compare your system/room with ours and it's starting to bore me :Z . Again anybody can see from your pics that you are in the fortunate position of hearing your equipment in ideal conditions. We never said that nor did we ever claim that! All we've said is that in our OPINION (And negating any other relationships be they Room acoustics, Projector/TV comparisons, Link comparisons and whatever else you've come up with) the Marantz has the better Video/Audio compared to the A11. As for our setup, making personal comments about it's deficiencies (Or anyones for that matter) is just not on in this forum. Have you ever seen Sithlord or myself belittle somebody elses equipment here? We wouldn't dream of doing it! Everyone has there own passions, and means to obtain their 'dream' system. If somebody goes out and spends $5000 on their entire setup who are we to question that or consider them inferior? I detest class based comments and I just won't tolerate it (Nor will the moderator).

I'll try to answer the rest of your questions:

- No we don't have a DVI connection. No the Hitachi 57" Rear Projection TV doesn't have a DVI connection. Yes it is capable of 720 and 1080. Yes it does 480 to HD upconversion.

- The native reoslution of our display is 480 I believe. Not sure if on DVD/Component source it's doing any upconversion to 720/1080. I doubt it but then I can't be sure.

- Comparison to 1:1 pixel mapping? Lost me there.

- No I don't think an analog TV can show what a Digital DVI Player can do. Already explained that - we don't have a digital capable connector on the display. We will with whatever projector we get.

- Yes we compared the both players in the Analog section (We have no choice due to lack of digital connection). Marantz is superior hence the reason for our change (As well as the bugs).

- No we don't think comparing 2 players using an RPTV is the best way to compare two players. Would you like to buy us something that allows us to compare in the digital domain?

- No we don't think using a Digital player using a digital connector on an Analog player is the best way to compare a DVD player nor is it the optimal way. I've already explained this due to lack of digital connection. What I have heard is the DVI connector on the A11 connected to a digital capable projector was 'awful' - straight from our Audio guy who knows more about this stuff than you or I put together. Until I see it for myself I cannot comment on either Firewire connectivity for the Audio or DVI for the video. Until then there's no need to keep repeating yourself - we don't have it.

- Do we know if your room is acoustically treated/isoltated from your house? Ummm why would we? What are you - some kind of Audio HT celebrity or something? Congratulations if it is *shrugs*. We intend doing the same thing but aren't in that position yet. When we are we'll repost an evaluation. The room is still in the planning stage. Be assured it will be done properly along with 3-Phase power. Until then - no point in discussing it.

- Do we know if a room adds negatively to the soundstage? If you were asking a 10 year-old I'd say no. You're not and yes we do. Why these repeated basic questions - are you keeping score here? Ok you have some knowledge, congratulations. I see no point in trying to highlight knowledge deficiencies. If there were any (Firewire) I've already investigated it and again cannot say 'yes' or 'no' to you because we don't have the facilities to compare.

- We didn't make any BOLD statements about the player. We posted a comment about 2 players tested under the SAME conditions. Using your rationale car manufacturers would NEVER loan their cars to journalists to test in ALL conditions. A good product perfoms well under ALL conditions not just OPTIMAL conditions. We tested (I will admit not totally objectively because hell - who has the measuring equipment that real reviewers have? If you have them again congratulations! Gees :roll. And lack of seriousness? Huh? How serious do you have to be to simply have an opinion that Product A was/is better then Product B? Last time I saw this was ONE of our hobbies not a thesis being written to earn a degree :W

Ok this has really gone way to far and you're obviously a very passionate individual who loves his equipment and - whatever, words fail me here. Now if we were to discuss Artifical Intelligence, Structured and Object Oriented code practices, experimental logic branching, CMOS programming in Assembler, Binary Encryption techniques you might be on equal footing with me in my REAL job. HT is a hobby - no more and no less. It's quite apparent it means a LOT more to you than it does me.

So if you want to get really serious I suggest you download some white papers from Denon and Marantz and knock yourself out. For me I'm happy to test with what we HAVE and not try to extrapolate on testing methods we cannot meet.

This is THE last post on the subject :roll:

P.S John Holmes our sincere apologies if these posts have tarnished this great forum. It was never our intention to turn this into a slinging match. We just love our HT and simply enjoy helping others enjoy theirs.

[BladeRnR]

Posted twice in error.

[John Holmes]

Levesque

Maybe I was unclear in my earlier post. The fact that you are a "boss" has no meaning here! We are not your employees. And the fact that you are someone's boss, you should know better when it comes to treating people with due respect.

Bladernr nor Sithlord, need not in anyway meet your standards before they can pass judgemnt on a piece of gear. If you have a dislike of how it was handled or they're outcome, fair enough. However, you "will" treat them with respect!

This is your final warning.

[Aussie Geoff]

Bladerunner,

Now if we were to discuss Artifical Intelligence, Structured and Object Oriented code practices, experimental logic branching, CMOS programming in Assembler, Binary Encryption techniques

I love it when you talk dirty... :T

Geoff

[Sithlord10]

Levesque

First off obviously I don't have a dedicated HT room as my brother has already made clear. My room is not properly setup like yours and I don't consider myself an audio/video guru unlike yourself. When I buy a product and use it with the same conditions previously used and I notice a diffference without changing anything other than in this case the dvd player,then well I'm afraid thats what is. I use component connections for video b/w tv and dvd player (Audioquest YIQ-1) I've never used anything else. As for the digital connection I use the Audioquest Optical 5 which is their best and found it to be brilliant and I have used other optical connections. The RPTV was calibrated for convergence only so not sure if ISF was addressed will investigate thank you for bringing it to my attention.

Now in regards to you changing dvds player purely on my opinion and thats all it was then I would encourage you not to nor would you due to your obvious preference. When this player gets more readliy available then I would advise you to test it and form your own opinion. The review on the Marantz site (Link provided in earlier post) would have been conducted in proper conditions but I guess we wont know for sure what equipment they were using at the time unless we inquire.

Well it's been fun but I know my brother and I will not be losing sleep over this so good luck to you and I hope we can discuss further equipment evaluations on this forum in the future.

[BladeRnR]

Bladerunner,



I love it when you talk dirty... :T

Geoff

You know you want me Geoff :W

[DrJRapp]

n. fo·rum pl. fo·rums, also fo·ra [ fôr, fr ] 1. a. A public meeting place for open discussion. b. A medium of open discussion or voicing of ideas, such as a newspaper or a radio or television program.

David... Just here we need to be sure that our "open discussion/our ideas " don't disagree with views of the sponsors. ....See new rules. :E

[mattstacey]

Guys....I must say this is one of the most amusing threads I have read in along time. It reminds me of some of those old DD vs DTS threads floating around the net a couple of years back......

It goes to show how passionate some people can be. Regardles, some of the info in this thread was very informative.

Bottom line is I will consider a Marantz player the next time I upgrade. Before reading this thread I don't think I would have given them a seconds glance.....Great work Sithlord and Balderunner........

[LEVESQUE]

Just another quickie. Please moderator, be kind!

Owning the Marantz for around 3-4 days, you know for sure it won't have any bug like the 5900, and that it will never skip freeze or play everything flawlessly?

You are surprinsingly confident here... Particularly after talking about all the 5900 "bugs" on all your posts, it's really surprinsing, don't you think?...

After 3-4 days, you know for sure it won't have worse problems then the 5900?

You did listen to 300, 400 hundred titles in 3 days to be sure it,s totally free of bugs? :E

BTW, I made a mistake. After looking around, i discovered your Marantz is a rebadge Pioneer 59avi with a slightly better analog section.

Here's what kris Deering from Secrets has to say about the Pio 59avi "T-Rex" deinterlacer:

"The de-interlacer did the same as previous Pioneer's. It passed the film based material but failed the mixed modes and 2:2 material. The chroma bug is not present like the 563a but there is a slight flicker with Monsters Inc and I noticed banding in color on some video based menus (The Big Lebowski) that isn't there with other players tested.

The de-interlacer is motion adaptive but does not pass the Faroudja flag test like the DCDi chips do."

Secrets score of the 5900: 96.

Secrets score of the 59avi: 82.

"What I have heard is the DVI connector on the A11 connected to a digital capable projector was 'awful' - straight from our Audio guy who knows more about this stuff than you or I put together. "

Secrets did report that the 5900 using the DVI connection gives the BEST PQ on the market right nowfor a single box solution, bar none. Directly form Kris Deering.

My opinion:


Using the 5900 with the 480p component connection was like trying a Porsche with 12" LADA tires...



My last post also on the subject.

But if you ever buy a digital projector and are serious about HT, do yourself a favor and try a 200$ Bravo D1 or a 200$ Zenith DVB318 with a the DVI connection and your mouth will drop on the floor compared to your Marantz 480p connection letting all those DACs and conversion in your RPTV messing the picture around...

You won't believe it. :T

[BladeRnR]

I'll address your points as best I can:

- I don't need to test for days on end to come to the conclusions I already have. I used several reference disks to test both the Marantz and A11. I am not going to belabour the point here 'again'. We have yet to come across any bugs with the player as yet. We have a 400+ DVD collection so admittedly this will take sometime to get through. So far DVD-A and SACD sound superb. The Marantz was/is superior on our RPTV. Accept it or don't accept it. Question - did you watch 300-400 titles before you purchased the 5900? I think not. You read some favourable reviews like we did and perhaps sampled the player beforehand and made a decision based on that. This is how 95% of Audiophiles would buy their equipment.

- I couldn't give a hoot if the Marantz D12 S2 was a rebadged VW Beetle. It does what we expect from a high-end transport and it does it very well. One could argue the A11 (5900) borrows technology from their 3800 and other players in the line. So what? *shrugs*

- Your source was not comparing a Marantz D12 S2 to the 5900 he was comparing something else. That is not an apples-to-apples comparison and is therefore invalid. Come back to me when you have a Marantz D12 S2 vs 5900 (We already provided you with a link to ONE review which couldn't possibly be as comprehensive as a Secrets review). I await such a comparison with baited breath. I'm sure more reviews of the Marantz D12 S2 will be available soon. Did you even read the review in the link we provided? The Marantz D12 S2 performed VERY favourably against the A11!

- Are we serious about HT? Well I'd say an outlay of $60,000 so far could be deemed 'serious' but it depends on your perspective :roll: Give me a break please - of course we are!

- You reiterate DVI and 480i et all yet again. I thought I made it really clear in previous posts we do not have the means to test DVI. The Marantz D12 S2 already has DVI output so I don't see the point of listing alternative transports here? When we buy a projector we will be going totally digital (DVI) as I've already stated. OBVIOUSLY RPTV is not the optimal way to enjoy a digital source as I've already explained in previous responses. If anything our RPTV is simply a stop-gap solution until we DO get a projector. Looking at our system one can see we've concentrated on Audio fidelity FIRST - not VIDEO.

LEVESQUE if you think the 5900 is the best thing in DVD Players since sliced-bread then that is your OPINION and you are welcome to it. If it floats your boat and makes you a happier HT enthusiasts then what possible argument could I have against that?

Until we have access to a pure digital video source I cannot compare, test,pre-suppose, extrapolate or guess how much better it's going to be over what we have. All I've read points to the digital domain as being superior for Video but until we have access to it *shrugs* - no comment.

On a LIGHTER note we are now considering the Anthem D1 as a Processor upgrade. I'm sure you'll be happy to hear that.

[BladeRnR]

Guys....I must say this is one of the most amusing threads I have read in along time. It reminds me of some of those old DD vs DTS threads floating around the net a couple of years back......

It goes to show how passionate some people can be. Regardles, some of the info in this thread was very informative.

Bottom line is I will consider a Marantz player the next time I upgrade. Before reading this thread I don't think I would have given them a seconds glance.....Great work Sithlord and Balderunner........

And mattstacey I'm not Balderunner I'm Bladerunner :B

Got a real laugh out of that!

[jimmyp58]

But not the Bryston SP 1.7?! :M

(Just kidding!!!) :T

[Sonnie Parker]

Concerning what you guys are testing these units on and the surrounding conditions:

Personally I think you should by all means test or compare your players on what you intend to use them with including the surroundings. I'm not going to buy a player just because it looks better on a 100" screen than it does on my 57" RPTV if a different player looks better on my 57" RPTV. If a 57" RPTV is what I've got to live with then I could care less how good another player looks on a 100" screen. If player A sounds better than player B in a perfect environment and my environment is not perfect and player B sounds better in my environment then I'm buying player B. Did I say that right?

IOW's... I'm buying based on what works best with what setup I have not based on what works best in the most perfect conditions somewhere else. Or at least that's what I think I would do... knowing me I'd screw up somehow. :roll:

[David Meek]

Sonnie, you nailed it pretty firmly. We ALL buy for our own circumstances/conditions. We ALL need to remember that.

[brucek]

......with the sub in a CORNER......
Did you know your sub is in the worst place possible in your room?

Levesque, could you expound on this statement further?

brucek

(8:55 edit fixed my quotes)

[BladeRnR]

[QUOTE=brucek][quote]......with the sub in a CORNER......
Did you know your sub is in the worst place possible in your room?

Levesque, could you expound on this statement further?

brucek

What's most ironic is the manual for the Anthem D1 has the subwoofer exactly where we have it - in the corner of a room. This pretty much reflects every other HT Speaker Placement guide I've ever read. Subwoofer placement is highly subjective and depends on the room. Our situation dictates it's placement as we have no other option. For the record I've never heard better bass from the B4+ - any other subwoofer I've heard is pretending.

Cheers

[brucek]

This pretty much reflects every other HT Speaker Placement guide I've ever read.

As you say Blade, it's generally accepted practice to corner load a sub.

It's quite difficult to obtain both maximum radiation and a smooth response from a subwoofer but you can usually obtain fairly good results with corner placement. This provides the maximum accoustic coupling, exciting all resonances in a room which in turn provides the most gain in all axial, tangential, and oblique first order modes.

Combine this with some necessary equalization and you stand a good chance of getting good bass response.

Most members on this site enjoy the results of equalization from a relatively inexpensive parametric amplifier from Behringer. See link.

http://www.snapbug.ws/bfd.htm

I've certainly done enough 1/6 octave frequency responses of my system using the rather cumbersome manual method and also used ETF software to be quite convinced that the only logical starting point for a subwoofer is the front corner of a room..... Floyd E. Toole certainly supports this idea.

I thought perhaps Levesque had some new info on the subject.

brucek

[LEVESQUE]

Bruceck.

Read this:

http://www.harman.com/wp/index.jsp?articleId=1003

I use 2 subs and fallow those guide lines.

Alot of professional HT builders are fallowing those standards.

And my subs are NOT in corners...

And my ETF5 plots are telling me my subs are in the right place...

But more power to you if your sub is in a corner...

[David Meek]

Due to a fairly small room, I've wound up with my Velodyne FSR-15 in the right front corner. It's not a 2" from each wall placement - the side of the sub is 3" out from the side wall and the back is 12" out. The reason being that this asymmetric placement smoothed out my response curve a bit.

[brucek]

I use 2 subs and fallow those guide lines

Yep, absolutely. But the white paper you reference deals with the problems and locations in placing multiple subs. That situation as I'm sure you realize is fraught with trouble - tried it myself and gave up, concluding one single large sub to be a better situation.

Here is a white paper from the same Harmon site by Floyd E. Toole which addresses locating a single subwoofer.

http://www.harman.com/wp/index.jsp?articleId=122

In part:

However, where we place the woofer with respect to the adjacent
room boundaries does matter. The least effective location is in the
middle of a room. It gets better on the floor, still better on the floor
against a wall, and best in a corner. This is “best” in the sense of
maximizing the quantity of bass radiated into the room.

So I guess Sithlords single sub in a corner isn't a bad thing after all and certainly isn't in the "worst place possible in your room"...........

brucek

[Sonnie Parker]

I can vouch for a single sub being in the corner at least for my HT room.

If I pull mine out from the corner (and I tried around 7-8 locations) I get a response that my BFD absolutely can not tame.

Nope... it's not perfect in the corner (without the BFD) but it's much worse anywhere else.

I've never tried 2 subs because one is all I've been able to stand thus far.


Alain... do you have a graph of your sub response that you can post?

Here's mine from the primary listening position (house type curve intentional):

[aud19]

Didn't read all the way through this thread but I remember someone writing about the 5900 having a "macroblocking" problem.

Just read the review of the 5900 in WS Review (July issue) and I don't have it front of me but it seems it's a feature of the FLI2310 chip used that comes with the noise reduction feature enabled from the factory. This causes the mpeg artifact that looks like macroblocking. Apparently you can contact Denon for a firmware update to disable the function hence removing the artifact.

Jason

[BladeRnR]

Didn't read all the way through this thread but I remember someone writing about the 5900 having a "macroblocking" problem.

Just read the review of the 5900 in WS Review (July issue) and I don't have it front of me but it seems it's a feature of the FLI2310 chip used that comes with the noise reduction feature enabled from the factory. This causes the mpeg artifact that looks like macroblocking. Apparently you can contact Denon for a firmware update to disable the function hence removing the artifact.

Jason

What worries me most about the A11 (5900) problems we saw is that perhaps there are actually differences betwen the stateside version of this player and the Aussie version. Sith and I have noticed several firmware upgrades specifically for the 5900 and not for the A11. We had to pull teeth out to get the latest firmware update from our local Audio/Video store via their Denon rep. This was supposed to speed up menu navigation and it didn't. The Marantz absolutely trounces the A11 for menu access speed and chapter skip speed - it is just INSTANT. As for the FLI2310 chip problem that REALLY worries us since we have heard nothing about it! Perhaps if we had persisted we may have been able to circumvent these problems? No matter. The Marantz thus far is performing admirably.

Thanks for the new information mate.

[Sithlord]

Hey all just a quick update. I'm having a Hitachi tech come over (Friday afternoon) and check over the tv just to be sure all is well. I have spoken to my dealer who sold me the Marantz player and I'm going to organise someone more knowlegable and qualified than me to setup the player particularly with the video settings.

Levesque I asked the Hitachi tech about ISF for the RPTV and he knows nothing about it but I will print some data from the net about it and show him. He said all they go by is the service manual and setup the TV accordingly but we will wait and see. From what I've been reading it's another service which is provided by certain companies to further enhance your tv. I have read that Pioneer have certain models that can be ISF treated and they provide the contacts to get the job done if the customer wants. In regards to the dvd players I have asked the dealer to bring over an A11 (5900) when he sends someone to address the video settings and I can compare the video. This is another dealer I'm using not the one where I had the issues with the first A11. When I mentioned the issues I was having with the player they were suprised but said in their side by side comparison b/w the Denon and the Marantz they prefered the Marantz for sound but the picture was too close for them to decide ( no idea what the conditions were and what connections they were using). The company is Carlton Audio Visual and they have a web site found here:

http://www.carltonaudiovisual.com.au/

As I work for a newspaper (The Heraldsun) in the production advertising area I get to see their ads before publishing and they sell some of the best speakers I've seen way beyond my price range. Unfortunalty they don't have every single item they sell on their web site probably don't wont to scare people away . With their help hopefull I can decide which player to keep as long as I don't have the same issues with the Denon as before. If it turns out that the Denon performs as it should then the Denon may find a home. Your input regarding the digital connection was quite a eye opener and very informative and as the Marantz does not have a firewire connection it may just turn me towards the Denon. Both my brother and I are still very pleased with the Marantz so it will be hard to decide which one to keep.

In regards to sub position I was quite limited with my room with the B4+ as you can imagine have you seen one or tried one? Very impressive IMO. Clearly using 2 subs as opposed to one does dictate their optimum seating. So in your situation I'm sure it's perfect but for me I was just lucky that the bass sounds simply surperb were it is otherwise I would have been stuffed. I just can't believe some people own two of those SVS B4+ subs in their HT. I look forward to your review for your new projector when you get it. Hope all goes well with that :T

[mattburk]

New marantz!

I don't believe the dv12s2 is based on a pioneer. It seems as if the dv12s2 is similar to the the new marantz sr9500, which looks awesome.
I for one would pick that marantz over denon too. The transport is based on their high end sacd player(not the same as the dv8400).

The new dv9500 sounds impressive. Here is a link to some specs:

http://www.homecinemachoice.com/cgi-bin/shownews.php?id=6595

And no it is not a pioneer based player. Here is a quote form Kris Deering in regards to the 9500:

"This Marantz player is not based on the Pioneer units. It is the first player built from the ground up by Marantz for both video and audio. I saw it in action at the Definitive show in Seattle, but didn't really learn much. I am arranging for one to test in a future benchmark.
The HDAM reference is Marantz's solution so that they don't use Op Amps, it is a direct coupling.
According to the Marantz rep I spoke with, this player will do DVD-A via HDMI, but I can't confirm it yet."


sithlord, Good pick on that marantz, keep us updated.

____ ______________

[Sithlord]

Marantz

Thanks for that Matt very interesting. From the picture though the unit is slightly different from mine in that it has 3 extra buttons on the right and two more below those one looks like a phono input the other a dial. I contacted a place called Qualifi who are the suppliers of Marantz (In Australia) and I need to e-mail them if I require my questions to be answered regarding the difference in models. It seems to have the same specs just the face plate is different. The sales and service of some places leave alot to be desired here and this place was one of them. :roll:

I'm hoping they are the same as my player came out in February and this other player comes out in September in the US and the US normally gets HT equipment before us most of the time. I will have to wait and see what Qualifi have to say as well as my Hi-Fi shop contact and see if they can clear things up a bit.

Thanks again for the info. :T