DVD Players....

[Dmantis]

OK,
here is something going around.Dynamic range on Dvd players.Have any of you found one DVD player lacking dynamic range over another in it's class????Like Sony vs Pioneer(Elite and ES that is)?

My question is what dvd player are you using and why?What did you compare it 2 and what made you buy that one over others?

Dan

[Sonnie Parker]

Hmmm... don't know that I've ever compared dynamic range on my dvd players.

I think I've only ever compared two and that's the two I have now... Denon 2900 and Zenith DVB318 and I really only compared the video.

I purchased both of these based on user experiences and reviews from forums and because of the price I could purchase them for (2900=$550 / 318=$160) considering them a good bang for the buck.

A good reference tool for video is DVD Benchmark... not sure about audio.

[JonMarsh]

Are you talking about dynamic range control? Many DVD players have a setting in audio setup for dynamic range control; "Normal" is no modification to the dynamic range originally on the movie; the quiet parts are quiet; and the loud parts are as loud as can be. Then there is usually a setting called something like "night" or reduced or whatever, in which the quiet parts are made louder, and the loud parts are made less loud; i.e., dynamic range compression. Some folks prefer this all the time; it's more like what they're used to on network TV, for example, or listening to FM radio.

Others, like most of us HT nuts, like the quiet parts to be quiet (whispered dialog in a love scene?), and the loud parts (car wrecks, plane crashes, general explosions, space shuttle launches) should be LOUD!


~Jon

[Bam!]

Jon! You rule man! :T

On another note....let us say in the case of the receiver having these options:

none
low
med
high

which one would you put....what does what ?

I get :blink: on this one!

[Dmantis]

It's not a matter of proper setup.it's the overall ability to recreate the dynamics of a movies soundtrack.I don't see any articles or reviews concerning that of which I would like to read a review of,on a professional level.

Comparing Dynamic range of 2 different players running lets say the pod race in EP1.....which player does the scence better justice in dynamic output?No restrictions in the preamp or the player,running full bore.

Dan

[JonMarsh]

Well, since it's just encoded as bits, unless you're using the decoder in the player, it "shouldn't" have any affect.

In the real world, life is not quite that simple, and many folks report differences in the quality of macro and micro dynamics with different DACs and transports. The more immune the DAC reciever is to jitter issues, though, the less likely the performance of the transport (DVD player) will have an effect.

OTOH, DVD players are notorious compared with CD players for having relatively high internal wordclock jitter, and this normally shows up on the SPDIF output, too. But it's not something most manufacturer's want to talk about.

My old friend at Ayre spends a lot of time on these details with the gear they design and build, but ultra low jitter, 12 bit 220 MHz DACs (video), and SDI video outputs don't come very inexpensively.




DX7 DVD Player

• Modular design provides flexible video output options

• Available DVI and SDI digital video outputs

• Zero-feedback DC-coupled video amplifiers available

• Available RGB and component progressive scan video outputs

• Total electrical isolation between video and audio sections

• Supports both NTSC and PAL formats for world-wide compatibility

• Ultra-low jitter master clock

• Balanced digital audio outputs

• Proprietary SyncroLink high-resolution digital audio port

• Integrated control port for seamless interface with system controller

~Jon

[Sithlord10]

Well for me I just recently changed dvd players from a Denon A11 (5900) to the Marantz DV12S2. The differences of the video and audio was quite staggering for me with the Marantz very much in the lead. I was having the macro blocking issue with the Denon so I got a full refund from my dealer. The soundstage with the Marantz is more dynamic and the video is very impressive. I wasn't expecting huge differences b/w the players but both my brother and I noticed it straight away. I've never owned a Marantz player before but all I can say is they know how to build one

[jimmyp58]

That's interesting about the Marantz and Denon seeing that they are manufactured by the same company.

Jim

[Sithlord10]

Totally different specs and diffferent technology. I would think that may have something to do with it. I've compared them both and IMO the Marantz is a better player but I'm sure others will object to what I'm saying as they probably own the 5900. If I didn't have the issues that I was having with the Denon I would have kept it. I've owned the 900,2800,3800 and the 5900 and each one had a issue. I guess I just got tired of making excuses for my player and blamed it on something else (which normally was the display device or interconnects). I'm happy for the change and I encourage others to try out the Marantz and compare it for themselves. Clearly Jimmy I'm only one person sharing his experience which I believe I've had enough of to tell the differnce b/w a good player and great one.

[jimmyp58]

Sithlord:

Thanks for the info and setting me straight as I didn't realize there were that big of differences between the Marantz and Denon.

Jim

[Brian]

Sonny,

How's the zenith compare to the 2900?

I have the 2900 but just got a new projector that accepts DVI and was thinking of getting rid of the 2900 for the 318. I really don't listen to multichannel music so I'm just curious as to the performance on movies.

[LEVESQUE]

Sithlord10.

I know... I own a 5900 and must probably by full of bias...

But if the Marantz is so great, why don't we hear about it anywhere?

Strangely, for 1000 posts on the 5900 there is probably 1 post on the Marantz on the net... IMHO, with so many people comparing players and posting on the net, if the Marantz was that good it would be all over the net already...

Look at the Zenith DVB318. Who would have ever dream of seeing so many threads on so many sites about a ZENITH player! 8O Look on AVS! It's a ''Zenith'' invasion on the DVD-players forum. Why? because this player totally ROCKS for the price. I know, I own the LG counterpart.

There is thousands of post on the Denon 5900. How many on the Marantz? If it was ''rocking'', we would hear about it...

When people find something good, we know pretty fast on the net...

Better technology on the Marantz? I'm using the firewire connection on my 5900 right now. We did try it on the Pio Elite receiver and the Rx-Z9. Working flawlessly.

Does the Marantz has an active firewire connection?

I'm not picking on you. Just ''clarifying'' the comparison a little bit...

[Sonnie Parker]

Brian...

I'd say it's very close but it depends on what you are using it on.

On my Toshiba 65HDX82 widescreen RPTV it actually looks better than the 2900 to me.

On my 2HD FP it is a tie... but there is also an underscan issue on the PJ so that eliminates me from using it there.

What I'll be keeping my eye on is the new Denon DVD-1910 @ $269.00 MSRP (probably $200 street price). With DVI-D (HDCP) digital video output and selectable scaling, 480p, 720p, or 1080i, and features the new Faroudja FL12301 DCDi chipset.

Or maybe even the 2910 or 3910... I'm not sure if the 2910 will up-scale though. The 3910 will but it's still a little pricey for me. Even the 2910 is still pricey and it's on the 2200 platform but might be worth checking into if it up-scales. Possibly the only benefit would be SACD/DVD-A and if that's the case then it wouldn't interest me... the 1910 would suffice. They are supposedly to be released in August 2004.

[BladeRnR]

Sithlord10.

I know... I own a 5900 and must probably by full of bias...

But if the Marantz is so great, why don't we hear about it anywhere?

Strangely, for 1000 posts on the 5900 there is probably 1 post on the Marantz on the net... IMHO, with so many people comparing players and posting on the net, if the Marantz was that good it would be all over the net already...

Look at the Zenith DVB318. Who would have ever dream of seeing so many threads on so many sites about a ZENITH player! 8O Look on AVS! It's a ''Zenith'' invasion on the DVD-players forum. Why? because this player totally ROCKS for the price. I know, I own the LG counterpart.

There is thousands of post on the Denon 5900. How many on the Marantz? If it was ''rocking'', we would hear about it...

When people find something good, we know pretty fast on the net...

Better technology on the Marantz? I'm using the firewire connection on my 5900 right now. We did try it on the Pio Elite receiver and the Rx-Z9. Working flawlessly.

Does the Marantz has an active firewire connection?

I'm not picking on you. Just ''clarifying'' the comparison a little bit...

With respect LEVESQUE. I'm Sithlords Brother and believe me when I tell you - I'm fussier than what he is when it comes to HT components. The Denon 5900 (Quite frankly) for the money ($4000AU) was rubbish. The reasons:

- Shocking Macro Blocking problem that is yet to be addressed by Denon
- A picture that 'phased' in and out and shifted
- Detail was all over the place
- The slowest menu access on earth. I've seen $70 DVD Bargain bin DVD Players that do this faster. Hell my PC DVD-ROM is faster!
- Harsh, if not 'sibilant' sound.
- Even on brand new disks the picture would skip, freeze and the player locked up requiring a reset. This happened on the original AND replacement unit ops:

As for reviews the player has only just come out (February 2004) which explains their scarcity. If you go to http://www.marantz.com theres a review there somewhere and there's another one which I'll update this post with (The reviewer clearly favoured the Marantz D12 S2). The quality of a DVD Player is not assured because it has 1000+ reviews & comments. I have seen equally favourable and unfavourable reviews on the 5900(A11 in Australia).

By comparison the Marantz D12 S2:

- Has the best picture I've ever laid eyes on. The Blacks are just astounding as is the detail. NO Macro Blocking problems at all.
- The sound is so ridiculously good you'd think this was an Audiophile SACD/CD Player. No harshness at all yet retains all the detail (And more). By comparison the Denon 5900 sounded vapid. The Marantz D12 S2 creates a beautifully solid 3D sound field. Pink Floyd's Dark Side Of The Moon on SACD has NEVER sounded as good As for reference disks like LOTR - ROTK forget it - I'm hearing things the Denon simply did not relay to the audience. Prime example is in the tumult of battle where you can HEAR King Theoden marshalling his troops and them replying!
- The unit is built like a tank with a similar Copper Chassis to the Denon 5900. The remote is lightyears ahead in quality, layout and construction compared to Denon's flimsy plastic monstrosity. The tray action is far smoother than the 5900. Overall I think it weighs about 1Kg heavier than the 5900.
- The display is less obtrusive.
- Chapter skip is INSTANT (As in zero pause).

BTW why are using a Firewire connection?

Here's the link to the review:

Marantz D12 S2 Review

Note the comparisons he makes between the Marantz and the 5900 (A11) :T I think you'll be hearing a lot more about this player in future. For $200AU more the Marantz buries the Denon 5900 in all respects and when HD-DVD comes out this is the first manufacturer we'll be looking at.

[LEVESQUE]

With respect.

Macroblocking can be seen is on less then 1% displays out there by Secrets evaluation. I've never seen any after listening to over 200 DVD titles.

I just got my 5900 from Denon with the latest firmware upgrade. Lightning fast menu navigation now, no layer transition. I have never experience any freezing, skipping or any problems even after 200 titles.

Are you sure you are really serious here? You were not using the 3800 instead? Your description of bugs totally fits the Denon 3800.

Ok where do I start. This Marantz is a Pioneer 45avi with an improve audio section. And like all Marantz players, still having the CUE bug. Not even using DCDi. Please! This is an AUDIO player. That's all.

"BTW why are using a Firewire connection?"

Are you kidding me? You don't know why there is firewire connections on a DVD-player?

All the top end receivers have them now or will soon have them, the Anthem D1 will have it in less then 4 months, the Bryston SP1.7 also.

Never heard of the combination Pio Elite 59txi and 59ai in Australia?

Did you know there is a DVI connection on the 5900 upscaling to 720p and 1080i?

Do you know what a pure digital path is between a projector and a DVD-player?

Do you know what 1:1 pixel mapping is?

I use a HX1U 3chip LCOS calibrated by William Phelps. I did compare it in house with the new Marantz S3. The calibrated HX1U is simply better then the S3. I did try the Sharp 12K also. We were 5 poeple in the room, and the calibrated HX1U was totally better.

This guy calibrated more then 400 G90 all across the USA. He's the official calibrator of the Faroudja's own projectors.

The next big player will be the Denon 5910. Not the Marantz. Sorry.

I respect your opinion. No problem with that. But poeple all over prefer the 5900. The 5900 is not the be all end all for sure. But professionnal installers and HT builders were all over the place over that player for a reason.

And try to do some reading on firewire. It's what you will be using in a couple of years for audio instead of the bunch of cables dangling along in the back of your Marantz.

Sorry for the tone. But something doesn't seems right in what those 2 brothers are saying...

[Aussie Geoff]

Let's all respect each others experiences and opinions...

LEVESQUE,

Everyone has opinions and is entitled to them. You clearly have some strong opinions on the Denon 5900 and your experience is clearly different to Slithlord and Bladrunner. Who knows the Aussie batch of A11's may not be as good as the USA 5900s. That aside people are entitled to their opinions (good and bad) about the quality of what they own. Everyone’s experience is difference.

However we have a clear sense of respect for each other in this forum. It's one of the hallmarks of what makes HTGuide a close community. The tone you are starting to use in your posts on this topic is not in-keeping with this...

Please.... If this keeps up I would bet that the thread is locked...

I'm glad you've had such great experiences with your Denon 5900. I'm also glad that Sithlord was able to replace his (clearly problematic) A11 and is having such good experiences with his new toy...

Geoff

[BladeRnR]

With respect.

Macroblocking can be seen is on less then 1% displays out there by Secrets evaluation. I've never seen any after listening to over 200 DVD titles.

I just got my 5900 from Denon with the latest firmware upgrade. Lightning fast menu navigation now, no layer transition. I have never experience any freezing, skipping or any problems even after 200 titles.

Are you sure you are really serious here? You were not using the 3800 instead? I think you are not really serious with what you are writing here.


Ok where do I start. This Marantz is a Pioneer 45avi with an improve audio section. And like all Marantz players, still having the CUE bug. Not even using DCDi. Please! This is an AUDIO player. That's all.


The proof you are not serious: "BTW why are using a Firewire connection?"

Are you kidding me? You don't know why there is firewire connections on a DVD-player?

All the top end receivers have them now or will soon have them, the Anthem D1 will have it in less then 4 months, the Bryston SP1.7 also.

Never heard of the combination Pio Elite 59txi and 59ai in Australia?

Did you know there is a DVI connection on the 5900 upscaling to 720p and 1080i?

Do you know what a pure digital path is between a projector and a DVD-player?

Do you know what 1:1 pixel mapping is?

I use a HX1U 3chip LCOS calibrated by William Phelps. I did compare it in house with the new Marantz S3. The calibrated HX1U is simply better then the S3. I did try the Sharp 12K also. We were 5 poeple in the room, and the calibrated HX1U was totally better.

This guy calibrated more then 400 G90 all across the USA. He's the official calibrator of the Faroudja's own projectors.

You really made me laugh, because at first I taught you were serious.

The next big player will be the Denon 5910. Not the Marantz. Sorry.

I respect your opinion. No problem with that. But poeple all over prefer the 5900. The 5900 is not the be all end all for sure. But professionnal installers and HT builders were all over the place over that player for a reason.

And try to do some reading on firewire. It's what you will be using in a couple of years for audio instead of the bunch of cables dangling along in the back of your Marantz.

Your post was not respectful and Aussie Geoff clearly saw that.

There's no need to belittle somebody because of their opinion which is what you set out to do here. I'm an Analyst/Programmer so I do know 'something' about technology'. My post was attempting to show the strengths/Weakness of the old vs the new. If you feel you have to justify your purchase with a list of 5900 assets then that is of course your preogative.

Macro Blocking Link is precisely the video artifact I observed on the 5900. It was most apparent on Rambo III in the cave scene to the point where the camera would transition and you could clearly see huge 'blocks' between the varying contrast of the shadows. It's also apparent on Episode 1 Star Wars. I'm not going to list all the titles we've watched and where I've observed these artifacts but it would be in the region of about 20 titles.

Yes I know what Firewire is - there are 2 flavours - 400 & 800 I believe. I've only ever used this connection in the context of computing. Yes I did know of the DVI connection on the 5900 as well as the Firewire connection (It's called Denon Link isn't it? - a proprietry implementation of the Firewire standard therefore you won't be able to use it with the Anthem?). If I've missed the mark regarding Firewire then forgive me. We could see no reason to utilize it over a component connection after one of the Audio guys we buy from tried it and reverted to Component after 15 minutes stating it was 'terrible' (I'm referring to the DVI connector here not the Firewire). I'm 'assuming' the Firewire connection you're referring to is the transport mechanism for the digital signal between DVD Player and Processor? If it is then no we haven't tried it - we use optical. Edit - We would have needed a Denon Receiver that used Denon Link in order to use the Digital Link from the A11. If you mean there's a connection between Firewire and a Projector then I'll be the first to admit I didn't know that transport mechanism even existed. I won't comment on something I've not tried or seen. The Rotel 1098 processor doesn't have Firewire connectivity nor does the Marantz. I've not read that Firewire is the 'Future' of connecting HT components as yet. In fact the Processors you gave as examples were both 'upcoming technology' that would feature Firewire connectivity. That is not the 'all of the top-end receivers' (2 examples no less). The Rotel 1098 is top-end and it doesn't have it? (They might add it later via an add-on card) who knows?). If you're using it and your HT components have that feature then congratulations to you. But it's not 'current' - it's 'upcoming' and I quote from an Anthem D1 article:

i-Link, DVI, HDMI Features

We were curious to know why the new Anthem Statement D1 SSP shipped without an IEEE connection. There is a slot for it located on the back panel but at this time the connection is missing. Upon speaking to Anthem they have plans on activating this interface soon. Current D1 owners will likely have to ship their units back to the manufacturer or have their local authorized dealer handle the upgrade..

Yep that sounds like it's 'current' :wink:

As for being a standard it's not - it's computer connectivity being 'adapted' and applied using proprietry method (Denon Link, Yamaha i-Link). Consumers will have to be very aware that in order to utilize this pure digital domain they'll need to be aware that their source product will have to match their processor product. Again - proprietry - not a standard. This isn't going to be as easy as walking up to a PC with a camcorder and plugging it in :wink: And I quote from an excerpt of the Yamaha RX-Z9 Receiver:

i.Link / IEEE 1394 Firewire Digital Interface
In defense of the RX-Z9, not having multiple channel trim settings quickly became somewhat of a moot point since it did have i.Link (IEEE 1394) for digital transmission of DVD-A/SACD from i.Link compatible players. This is a tremendous feature and critical for those serious about high resolution multi-channel audio. The advantage here is you now divert the decoding, bass management and level controls to the receiver/processor where everything is processed in the digital domain, and theoretically already configured during the set up for DD /DTS (with exception to the subwoofer level balancing to compensate for format differences). There has been a lot of discussion on many internet chat groups about the capabilities of Firewire as a defacto digital standard for passing high resolution DVD-A/SACD formats. Most of this discussion seems to reside around the issue of jitter and how it affects the fidelity of these formats.

This also explains why there's a need for this proprietry implementation since transferring of digital media in a pure form is prohibited (Digital Rights Management). If it were just 'pure' Firewire then what's to stop something tapping in and recording it? It's not allowed ergo i-Link and Denon Link (And I'm sure there will be others) were invented.

What I will comment on is some subjective testing between two DVD Players that I've been fortunate enough to both see and hear. I related those differences so I won't belabour the point. Suffice it to say we've found the Marantz to be superior to the A11 in video & audio. If there are differences between the A11 and the 5900 'version' of the Denon product then we can't comment on that since we don't have access to the 5900.

We have yet to purchase a Projector therefore our research is limited. We currently have a Hitachi 57" HD Rear Projection screen that upscales to 720 and 1080. You lost me with the whole calibration HXU1 thing - I just said the Marantz has a better picture How it achieves this over the A11 I don't know (I rely on my Brothers judgement in this department since I'm a coder not a hardware guru). All I can relate to you is what I saw (Thus I did).

In summary yes I was serious about what I said and there was no need to go on the Offensive as you did . What would you say if I said your Subwoofer was a toy compared to the SVS B4+? No you wouldn't like it.

I will be researching the Firewire connectivity though as I'm now interested in that (Looks like I just did - note the quotes above). I suggest you view the Marantz in light of what I've related just for your edification. If the 5900 (A11) was the player you've suggested it is we would have kept it. It wasn't and we didn't.

Have a nice day.

[Sithlord10]

I've decided that in the future that if I do upgrade anything in my HT, I will not be posting my findings on this forum anymore. Of course there will always be people who will disagree, but their tones really make you want to just keep your findings to yourself and just enjoy. My dealer tried the dvi input to his projector with the A11 and he changed back to component. I also had the update performed on the A11 (activated the DVI and improved the menu speed) but I'm sorry the menu speed just isn't as fast as the Marantz. Levesque did you read the review that my brother provided you the link for? You should have a read

Geoff I totally agree with what your saying and I try to keep my post as civil as possible. I don't ever attack others or try to prove them wrong. It was just my findings and I'm entiltled to voice my opinion. If that rubs people the wrong way then they need to take a chill pill and see HT for what it is. I was a Denon supporter for ages but their top of the line player just didn't deliver IMO. Oh well just goes to show you can't please everyone all the time. :roll:

[Sonnie Parker]

Well I was thinkin' the 5900 would eventually be my dream machine (or whatever and if ever a newer and less expensive model replaces it on the DVD Benchmark (Secrets Shootout) list by the time I get ready to pull the plug.

I wonder when Secrets will test the Marantz D12 S2? If it is as good as indicated above then surely it will be atop the list and it could potentially be my next dream machine... although it doesn't appear to up-scale or up-convert to 1080i. That was a very interesting review of the Marantz none the less.

The only reason I haven't purchased the 5900 is the price and I figure they'll be newer models that do as good or better for a lot less very soon... thus I've been playing the waiting game. Plus I'm more interested in video alone and don't want to pay for the SACD/DVD-A portion if I can get an equal video quality with a less expensive model.



BTW: What is the American model # for the D12 S2?

[BladeRnR]

Well I was thinkin' the 5900 would eventually be my dream machine (or whatever and if ever a newer and less expensive model replaces it on the DVD Benchmark (Secrets Shootout) list by the time I get ready to pull the plug.

I wonder when Secrets will test the Marantz D12 S2? If it is as good as indicated above then surely it will be atop the list and be my next dream machine. That was a very interesting review of the Marantz.

The only reason I haven't purchased the 5900 is the price and I figure they'll be newer models that do as good or better for a lot less very soon... thus I've been playing the waiting game. Plus I'm more interested in video alone and don't want to pay for the SACD/DVD-A portion if I can get an equal video quality with a less expensive model.

BTW: What is the American model # for the D12 S2?

Gidday Sonnie

I believe the Marantz model designation is the same between Australia & the U.S as the Australian site where we first purchased it references a the Marantz U.S website

Cheers

[Sonnie Parker]

Hmmm... the players listed on the Marantz site are:

DV8400
DV6400
VC5400
VC4400

I can't find any mention of it on the site.

Ahhh.... just found it... it is listed only as an European and Asian product.

I was unable to find it on Yahoo at any Internet dealers in the U.S. It doesn't appear to be available here in the U.S.

[BladeRnR]

Hmmm... the players listed on the Marantz site are:

DV8400
DV6400
VC5400
VC4400

I can't find any mention of it on the site.

Ahhh.... just found it... it is listed only as an European and Asian product.

I was unable to find it on Yahoo at any Internet dealers in the U.S. It doesn't appear to be available here in the U.S.

Sorry about that - we looked at the 'Asia' arm of their site not the U.S one. I'd imagine it will be available fairly soon in the U.S (There's a turn-up for the books! Something available here first and not the U.S!). When it is released watch for the favourable reviews to roll in

[Aussie Geoff]

Sithlord10,

I've decided that in the future that if I do upgrade anything in my HT, I will not be posting my findings on this forum anymore. Of course there will always be people who will disagree, but their tones really make you want to just keep your findings to yourself and just enjoy.

Now... Please post - we like hearing about your new toys... I'm sure we'll all be hearing a lot more about the Marantz in the next few months... Don't let one incident spoil you sharing...

Sharing is what HTGuide is about....

PS - What do you mean "if in the future I do upgrade anything..." You clearly have the condtion. There is no cure (marriage sometimes is a temporary one). Let me suggest:
>> New speakers (JM Lab Electra series will be IMO a big step up for you)
>> A Krell Strereo amp for the front like the Krell FPB 400cx
>> 60 Inch plasma or maybe 3 chip DLP projector
>> DVD Recorder
>> Upgraded power cords (I know you don't have them on everything yet!)
>> and then - well we could have some fun...

Geoff

[Sithlord10]

Geoff I was a little rattled before so don't worry I will post my reviews on future updrades . Well I'm saving for a house (don't laugh) hopefully buy one around July next year and I will have a dedicated HT room. The next big updrade for me will be a DLP projector and sreen of course. I don't feel the need to update my speakers as I'm still blown away by their quality. I have updated power cords on the 1098 and the Marantz I'm using the power cord that came with the Krell very industrial. Those speakers you mentioned have you auditioned those yourself? I want these JM Labs . My brother keeps harassing me about getting another SVS B4+ but that will have to wait until the house because a reality. Thanks again you made me feel better and reminded me why we love HT so much :T

[Sonnie Parker]

I agree with Geoff...

I enjoyed reading and finding out about this Marantz player.

Hey... without folks sharing and reviewing new products we wouldn't know how well they perform before we purchased them. That's definitley part of why the forums exist.

Personally I think this Marantz unit could end up being a great find for us U.S. folks. As I stated above... who knows... it might just take over the #1 spot for DVD players.

Alain might even have a different view of it once he's had the chance to see it in action himself. Currently though he's pretty much on the money with the 5900 as far as what is offered to us here... I think it would be hard for us to find anything better right now.

[Aussie Geoff]

Sithlord10,

Those speakers you mentioned have you auditioned those yourself? I want these JM Labs . My brother keeps harassing me about getting another SVS B4+ but that will have to wait until the house because a reality.

The JM Lab Focal Electra 936 are in my house as we speak on demo. They are the most revealing cone based speaker I have ever heard - like electrostatic headphones in terms of speed and detail. Incredibly good on quality material. Very revealing of lesser material.... Well worth hearing just to know how clear speakers can be... They have very limited dealers so Email Nigel at Audio Marketing on nigel@audiomarketing.com.au for the name of the Melbourne dealer(s). They are worth hearing on familiar material just so you know how clear a speaker can be… (We have a family HT set-up with lots of Digital TV, Satellite TV and they are just too revealing for me for this - otherwise they would be staying...)

The JM Lab Utopias BE in your link are not stocked in Perth and have prices up to $140,000 so I haven't heard them - they are supposed to be "to die for" - the largest in the range being given several "Best speaker in the world" accolades...

PS - Two PB4+ will generate 130dB in a room your size. I’m sad to say that Bladerunner may be suffering from "Woofermainia" (a specialised form of “upgraditis” often caught by owners of SVS subs) Check out THIS THREAD. I hear that the hope of a cure is remote... You have my condolences…

Geoff

[John Holmes]

This is great is a great topic, on a great forum. And it will continue as such.

Everyone that post is entitled to their opinion. So please make sure that we remember to respect others and his or her position.

Have a great day! 8)

[Bam!]

hey duders!

I know Alain a little from other forums....he`s not an aggressive type and this is not really like him.....while he does totally get obsessed with what the internet provides him as information....he means well....I am not saying because he means well that his post to Silthlord was right.....

Actually I was kinda laughing when he said Marantz was better than his precious 5900 :lol:

Hey guys.....let`s take a pill and chill! :lol: This is just a hobby for cripes sake!

:roll:

[JonMarsh]

The really funny part here (in one sense) is that Marantz and Denon combined forces a few years ago, and have common engineering and development now.

Though originating in the US, Marantz seems to have more of a marketing push in the EU and Asia these days than in the US; there are some integrated amp units as well as DVD/SACD players which are well represented in the distribution change in EU, for example, and relatively hard to find over here. Don't know why that is. You don't see a lot of press or sales coverage of Marantz players in the US, in my experience, but they do make some good units, like the DV-8400 and SA-14v2.







I'm kind of "retro" myself, as everyone knows, so the idea that they offer an "improved" version of a flagship two channel SACD player, with no video circuitry and all the focus on wringing out the best two channel quality appeals to me, compared with what the competition is offering in this class.

~Jon

[Sonnie Parker]

Well Jon... they've got the looks down pat... beautiful unit indeed for a SACD player.

Bam... I don't know that we can actually laugh at the fact that he says the Marantz is better than the 5900 because we (here in the U.S. and Canada and anywhere else it's not available yet) have not had the opportunity to compare them head to head as he and his brother have.

Once it becomes available here in the U.S. then we can compare the two and I'm sure Secrets will be all over it asap as well. Then we can laugh, cry, shout with joy or whatever floats our boat... yes? :B

[Bam!]

...Jon good point! well said.

Sonnie....I know that is the real part....

I have reread this thread....I actually been lookin`at threads from Alain.

I think he thinks what he has is the best. There`s nothing better. The problem is, it`s audio...it`s personal...the best for one could be poop for another....

Anyways I won`t go further with this since I don`t want Alain to think I have a problem with him....cause I personally don`t. Do I personally really care about Anthem D1......no....does he recommend it to everyone....yes.....because he loves it...and for that good for him...as long as he is happy then all is well and ends well.



....on another note....the Marantz is actually way prettier than the Denon! :E but that`s a whole other topic!

cheers Alain.

[Sonnie Parker]

lol... I thought most everyone in the forums thought what they owned was the best bar none or the best bang for the buck and thinks everyone else should own what they have. :B

How else can we justify what we buy???? hee hee Aren't forums made to help us be happy with what we purchase? We look for good things said about our equipment and when someone dogs it we get defensive?

Okay... not everyone is really that way but some are very compassionate about what they own and we all have a right to be that way I suppose.

What we always seem to end up saying "it's whatever our ears and eyes like" and it is "in my opinion".

[David Meek]

lol... I thought most everyone in the forums thought what they owned was the best bar none or the best bang for the buck and thinks everyone else should own what they have. :B

How else can we justify what we buy???? hee hee Aren't forums made to help us be happy with what we purchase? We look for good things said about our equipment and when someone dogs it we get defensive?

Okay... not everyone is really that way but some are very compassionate about what they own and we all have a right to be that way I suppose.

What we always seem to end up saying "it's whatever our ears and eyes like" and it is "in my opinion".

Exactly Sonnie, exactly. We all want to think we have "the goods" in our systems - and generally, we do - within the framework of our individual budgets, likes and dis-likes. Sith' and Blade' please do continue to play with us and share your experiences, too. That's what a forum is all about:

n. fo·rum pl. fo·rums, also fo·ra [ fôr, fr ] 1. a. A public meeting place for open discussion. b. A medium of open discussion or voicing of ideas, such as a newspaper or a radio or television program.

[LEVESQUE]

Sorry to everyone I did offend. Tough day at work. 75 employes to manage (all women!). :B

And Bam! How dare you say those things on me after all we went through together? :lol: No BBQ with you anymore for sure!

The firewire connection of the 5900 works flawlessly with both the Pio 59txi and the Yammie RX-Z9 I did try. Yes, they have firewire connections, not only for cameras, but for audio... It's the future of audio here today...

BTW, if you REALLY did try the A11, you didn't notice the 2 firewire connectors behind it, AND the Denon link (because you seem to confuse both), and noticed they are 2 DIFFERENT connection types and use 2 DIFFERENT types of connectors? When you try a player, you don't look at the connections in the back? Strange that you are confusing a firewire connection with a network connection... for an Analyst/programmer... it's strange, no?

Using the composite video connection to compare both players? Did you even try the upconversion? You know the difference between a DVI connector and a s-video connector? I have to ask, seeing you don't know the difference between the firewire connectors and DenonLink connector in the back of the A11... You do know the biggest strenght of the 5900 is the upconversion over DVI, and the fact that you can modify the settings on the 5900 in the digital domain?

Does your display can use a DVI connection?

Sure you did try the A11? beeing an Analyst/programmer, you should know firewire is a standard... My friend. It's not proprietry, it's a firewire connection! Not the Denon link we are talking about. The 59txi and RX-Z9 BOTH work with the 5900 using the firewire connection, proving it.

The sound is totally awesome, cleaner, fuller and just plainly better using a digital firewire connection. That's my opinion. Who needs the "good" analog stage of the marantz when we can use a digital connection instead? We are bypassing DACs and digital to analog conversions. I'm sorry, but that's the future...

I'm sure I'm probably the only one here that was able to try those 2 firewire enabled receivers with the 5900... But I can tell you this, you need aan incredibly better analog stage (an almost perfect implementation...) then the one in the Marantz to just get close to the quality of that digital connection using the i-link...

I always said that comparing 2 DVD-players on a 57" doesn't really say anaything. My 5900 looks like a 25$ Apex player on my 40" set.

But on a 110" screen (that could fit 4 displays of 57" in it btw), all those differences between a good and a REALLY good player are getting clearer and clearer, and all the flaws are so much evident. So for me your evaluation on a 57" (was it even calibrated, ISF'd?) doesn't say anything.

BTW, all the bugs that were describe here were known bugs of the 3800. Secrets never talked (and not any 5900 users on the 1000 long posts and threads of the 5900 on AVS) about freezing and skipping...

And Sithlord. Why is it a Denon player in this (UPDATED on the 25th of july) picture of yours? Don't tell me you are pulling out a leg at us, don't you? Not anxious to show us that awesome Marantz of yours?



My equipment is not the best. I never said that. I like what I own. I know there is better thing out there.

But Sithlord post was sounding really strange, and all the bugs and problems he was talking about were not what people are reporting with the 5900. I'm sorry, but I taught it was a troll, or something related to that, like a Denon bashers, or a Denon nitpicker... or worst, a Marantz dealer or something like that!

And the "brother" coming to help was just... strange... 8O And this brother, beeing an Analyst/programmer, can't see the difference between a firewire connector and a network (DenonLink) connector in the back of the unit he did try? :roll:

Sorry everyone for my "tone". It's my "boss" attitude.

And just to counter balanced that photo of Sithlord set-up, here's mine...

[Bam!]

LEVESQUE!

Don`t ever joke about barbeques...EVER! :M : :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Good to see ya back duder!

You do have a really nice set up....don`t let anyone tell you otherwise! :lol:

[Aussie Geoff]

LEVESQUE,

Just to ease your concerns. Sithlord has been arround on forums for several years, and his brother Bladerunner. They have different nicknames in different forums (e.g Sithlord uses his real name Simon Brown on www.hometheaterforum.com) - but they're there. When Sithlord bought his Krell - we had lots of Krell posts. Before that, for the SVS PB4+ - lots of on "what to people think" and then after buying, more posts and photos (with brother) unpacking and installing... They (like most of us) love their HT and query a lot for info before buying, then share afte buying good and bad experiences... They also have good taste and buy some great gear.

Enjoy your system it looks great - you just need a few more chairs to have some friends over...

PS - How's that Anthem D1 doing for you...?

PPS - 75 Ladies and a tough day at work - ouch...

Geoff

[BladeRnR]

LEVESQUE thanks for your post. I'll make this point form to just make it easier.

- I didn't say Firewire wasn't the future. I said it was 'upcoming' technology and gave evidence to support that comment. Without doubt a pure digital connection is desirable and we'll pursure that avenue when it arrives. Who knows - Sithlord may even buy an Anthem D1 when they are released. Yes I'm sure you ARE the only one who's had the pleasure of trying Firewire given it's obvious infancy and lack of compatability with anything other than proprietry equipment. I'm curious - how did you test it with the Yamaha if their solition (i-Link) is proprietry compared to the 5900's (Denon-Link)? I'm asking from a purely technical basis now - how could they be compatable?

- I don't recall the A11 having 2 Firewire connections? I only ever recall it having Denon Link and thus dismissed it since we didn't have a compatible receiver. Perhaps my Brother can clarify this for me (I Hope). If it does have the standard Firewire connector then I apologise but as I said - I cannot recall it. I'll download the A11 manual to clarify. And no I dont look at the back of the units - that's my Brothers job - I just do the firmware upgrades As for knowing the difference between an RS232 Port and a Firewire port well - you're really having a go at me now aren't you? I programmed RS232 Port interfaces in Assembler so don't even go there. Suffice it to say YES I know what an RS232 port is. Edit - We just looked at the 5900 manual and sure enough there's Firewire on it :T. Oh well there was no way for us to know this since it's the U.S model. We are just checking the A11 manual (If we can find it on the net) to see if it does as well but I CANNOT recall if it did or not - Just the Denon Link.

- The Hitachi 57" was professionally calibrated in-house the day after we bought it buy an Hitachi technician. He was the most thorough technician I've ever seen. Having said that artifcats will be apparent on either display. We saw them and it's that simple. You don't have to believe that though - it's your preogative.

- Forget the projector for the moment. When we buy a house at the end of the year we will have a purpose built HT room. For now we simply don't have the room. Be assured when we do get around to it we'll be only looking at high-end. Marantz are ONE of the leaders in this field (VP12). And 4 57" screens into 110" doesn't go unless my Maths is out - try about 2 (Roughly) :wink:

- Regarding the bugs we found in the A11 (5900) I cannot vouch for other owners of the product - I can only relate our experience with it which was in the negative.

- We didn't try the DVI connector so I cannot comment on the upconversion.

- What are you trying to imply from Sithlord's HT pictures? He simply took those photos on the 25/07/2004 when we still had the Denon A11. He purchased the Marantz D12 S2 on the 30/07/2004. That's FIVE whole days between those old pictures and the Marantz purchase date :roll: What do you think we do - fabricate a purchase - HUH? We've JUST taken some new pictures which we'll post today. I'm very keen actually to show everyone the Marantz D12 S2.

- I don't 'come to the rescue' of my Brother. He relayed your post to me and I responded since it required clarification.

So look forward to some new pictures today of the Marantz D12 S2. Not only is it the better DVD Player (IMHO) it's also aesthetically superior as well (And built like a battleship). Sorry for the tone of some of my responses but WOW - some your responses needed it.

Cheers

Just checked the A11 specs. Yes it did have native Firewire. Wow I didn't know that! Very good then - Marantz doesn't so chalk one up for the A11/5900

[BladeRnR]

Pictures taken today (01/08/2004) of the Marantz D12 S2:









If you'd like a copy of the receipt LEVESQUE let me know

Regards

[Sithlord10]

Well I can see things are getting out of hand here so I will be straight to the point. When I make posts I don't make up anything :evil: When I say I bought a new player I mean it otherwise why would I make things up doesn't make sense that would destroy any hope of credibility. My Rotel 1098 does not have firewire so I was unable to try it. I'm glad you have and you like it so thats something for the rest of us to look forward to . With saying that clearly I wasn't able to utilise the full capabilties of the A11 but in reagrds to the video I still stand by what I said in that the Marantz has a better picture IMHO and I don't need a 110" screen to tell me that. The 57'RP that I own is able to display images very well and the differences were quite noticable.As to the sound with the same connections made with both players the Marantz IMHO does sound better than the A11 much smoother sound. But of course we all own different speakers/processors/amps so the sound is going to be different no matter what. Thank you Geoff and others for your contributions to this thread. I hope others are learing some invaluble information. :T

PS. I just went to the UK Denon site and looked at the back of the A11 it does have firewire connections so mine must have. I guess I only looked at connections I know I can use at the time . So if it improves sound even more than what I'm hearing then now WOW I cannot wait until it's readily available on all amps/recievers and dvds players. :T

[Bam!]

BladeRnR!

are those black wires Beldon 83803 ?

Really nice duder!

[Sithlord10]

Hey Bam,

No those are the Audioquest Slate speaker cables from the Krell going out the speakers. They are blue but in the pictures they look black. The other cables you can see are the Audioquest Diamondbacks (Blue) from the Krell into the Rotel 1098. Hope this helps. :T

[Michael Garrott]

Hi SithLord,

Just curious - how much did the Krell Home Theatre Amp cost? Looks like a beauty.

Cheers.
Michael.

[LEVESQUE]

Sithlord.

Give us some details on your video session to compare both players.

Did you used a component connection? 480p? Or did you use a digital connection, I mean a DVI connection?

Does you display can use a DVI connection?

Did you compare 720p and 1080i also?. Did you try to match your display native resolution? Do you know the native resolution of your display?

Did you try to compare both with a 1:1 pixel mapping?

Do you think an ANALOG RPTV can fully show what a digital DVI-player can do? Was the RPTV ISF calibrated?

Did you use 480p or did you bypass your RPTV analog conversion of the signal with a digital 720p or 1080i signal?

Did you compare the 2 players using the analog video section then?

Using a RPTV is the best way to compare 2 DVI players? Is it what you think?

Do you really think using a digital player with a digital connection to an analog RPTV can clearly show which player is the best?

Please give us some details. Your brother can chime in if he wants.

Did you ever read on the net that DVI players are shining with digital displays, and that it's a mix bag with RPTVs and analog displays? Yes? no?

I think we now all see through your "evaluation" of both players. You were using them clearly in sub-optimal conditions.

By the way. Do you think that evaluating the audio performance of 2 players with 2 speakers beside a big RPTV, with the sub in a CORNER, with the rack flanking the TV in a room that crowded, w/o any room treatments, with probably all the house noise around, can clearly show which player is the best sonically? Did you used a software like ETF5 to properly set-up the speakers in your room? Did you hired an acoustician like I did to help me set-up the room? Did you know your sub is in the worst place possible in your room? Did you made a plot of the bass response in your room?

Can we believe you when comparing the bass of both players?



This picture of your set-up shows us the best conditions to compare 2 players? Really? the mains are not at the same distance from the center. There is a window in this room. Total lighting control like in my room?

Do you think, honestly, that your room don't screw-up the sound? Can I honestly sell my 5900 to buy the Marantz with an evaluation of the 2 players in a room like this, and with an RPTV?

Did you know the room has a MAJOR impact on the sound?

Do you know my room is fully and totally dedicated and treated, isolated from the rest of the house, free of any noise from the house, even from the air circulation, making it the ideal room to compare 2 players sonically?

And that I did test the Bravo D1, the Pio 59avi, the Momitsu, the LG7832, and the 5900, all using the DIGITAL connection to a DIGITAL display before making comments on the 5900 video performance? I was not uising an analog RPTV...

We need to be more serious then that on the net. Come on. Show us some planning, some substance. Show us you are serious. I'm so tired of the lack of seriousness on the net. People hide behind and alias, don't use any method, place a player in the WORST possible environment, and then come here making bold statement about a player.

[Aussie Geoff]

Levesque - Please let it go....

LEVESQUE,

We know you love your player. But please – let it go... . This thread will degenerate if you continue…

Sithlord is not criticizing you or you player or your set-up. You seem to be taking the fact that he had problems with his Denon and now likes his Marantz better personally... He is not asking you to buy the Marantz. I’m sure you would listen and compare very carefully before buying anything new….

No one is criticising your set-up. We are all really glad that you like your system so much and your room is so perfectly treated etc...

Everyone is entitled to their opinion and pleasures… Lets please not attack each other in the forums…

Geoff

[Adz]

I love this forum! I just moved my popcorn machine from my home theater screening room to my upstairs computer room.
Doug - keep selling those silver digital lynx cables so we don't lose this place!!
Btw, can these guys post in 16:9 (that's 1.78:1)? I hate those bars that appear above and below my computer screen. :lol: