Buying second hand AVR; newer mid-range or old high-end?

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  • Nordskov
    Junior Member
    • May 2016
    • 24

    Buying second hand AVR; newer mid-range or old high-end?

    Hi there.

    I am upgrading my old Technics SA-AX6 surround receiver for something less ancient and more powerful.
    Currently I only run 2.1, but I plan building a center and rear speakers. So 7.1 will suffice.
    It will be used 50-50 music and HT.
    I am about to build The Finalist by Jim and Curt, so high power output and good stereo sound is important.
    Network is mandatory, but not WIFI.
    Most of my music is on a NAS-server in various formats, so I need support for multiple formats.
    Phone input is a must.
    The advanced room calibration found on newer models intrigues me.

    I have my eyes on Onkyo, and several models are for sale second hand in my country.
    I am interested in these models:
    NR809 at £395 (my favourite so far)
    NR5007 at £518
    NR5009 at £676
    NR636 at £282

    What is your take on these?
    Problems?
    Build quality?
    Sound quality?


    Best regards,

    Nordskov
  • Alaric
    Ultra Senior Member
    • Jan 2006
    • 4143

    #2
    I would avoid the lower end Onkyos. Cheap binding posts and, to be honest, they're lower end gear. Good stuff tends to be good stuff far longer than cheap stuff remains a bargain. I would take a 30 year old McIntosh over a 5 year old Onkyo without question. Of course all this depends on your budget. You don't always get what you pay for, but you almost never get what you didn't pay for.

    I had a lower price Onkyo 7.1 receiver a few years ago. It didn't sound particularly bad, it just didn't sound all that good. No major weak points (except the lousy binding posts) but no real strong points, including sound quality. They do tend to have a lot of features, though, if that is a priority.
    Lee

    Marantz PM7200-RIP
    Marantz PM-KI Pearl
    Schiit Modi 3
    Marantz CD5005
    Paradigm Studio 60 v.3

    Comment

    • wkhanna
      Grumpy Old Super Moderator Emeritus
      • Jan 2006
      • 5673

      #3
      Originally posted by Nordskov
      Hi there.

      ......high power output and good stereo sound is important.......

      Best regards,

      Nordskov


      not normal things associated with AVR's, especially mid to lower end units, imho.

      if you are seriously concerned about 2ch sound quality for music, i.e., it is a major priority for you, then you may want to consider other options for integrating multi-channel into your system.
      _


      Bill

      Practicing Curmudgeon & Audio Snob
      ....just an "ON" switch, Please!

      FinleyAudio

      Comment

      • Nordskov
        Junior Member
        • May 2016
        • 24

        #4
        Thanks for the input Alaric and wkhanna.

        I have to go second hand as my funds are limited. So a seperate stereo amp is out of reach. The AVR must do the job.
        And I'm restricted to what is on sale locally.

        So none of you would recommend any of the Onkyo models listed?
        There is some old and newer Denon and Yamaha models on sale too.
        Denon:
        3808Cl at £259
        3803 at £259
        3310 at £225
        4310 at £562
        Yamaha:
        A1020 at £394
        V3067 at £416


        Thanks,

        Nordskov
        Last edited by Nordskov; 04 August 2016, 06:10 Thursday. Reason: Typo

        Comment

        • wkhanna
          Grumpy Old Super Moderator Emeritus
          • Jan 2006
          • 5673

          #5
          will you also be relying on the AVR DAC for your 2ch music audio files?
          _


          Bill

          Practicing Curmudgeon & Audio Snob
          ....just an "ON" switch, Please!

          FinleyAudio

          Comment

          • Nordskov
            Junior Member
            • May 2016
            • 24

            #6
            Originally posted by wkhanna
            will you also be relying on the AVR DAC for your 2ch music audio files?
            Yes and no. My CD-player has optical out. Playing files from my NAS are digital all the way through. But my turntable will be analogue. Do you foresee any problems?
            As said, I cant afford seperate systems.

            Edit: Oh my CD-player also has digital out via coax IIRC

            Comment

            • Ovation
              Super Senior Member
              • Sep 2004
              • 2202

              #7
              I have the Yamaha RXV-A1000 (pre-cursor to the A1020) and am in no hurry to trade "up". I use it for MCH audio (SACD and DVD-Audio fed via HDMI), 2 channel (fed via HDMI or SPDIF/toslink), so I use its DACs for all my audio. Also use it for all movie audio. I'm far pickier for audio than video and tend to choose things to last at least 10 years (often last 15-20). I'd get another Yamaha A10X0 in a heartbeat if I needed to replace what I have. Save myself the usual 18-24 month research I do when I move from one brand to another. Just my 2 cents.

              I also have a nearly 13 year old Integra (Onkyo) AVR in my secondary system, and I've had no issues with it. No HDMI, though, which is why I moved to the Yamaha. The equivalent Integra, by then, was out of my budget. Of the two, though, I'd choose Yamaha again, given current product offerings.

              Comment

              • Nordskov
                Junior Member
                • May 2016
                • 24

                #8
                Hello Ovation. Thanks for your review.

                I think its a real pain in the butt trying to figure out the classification on the myriads of models from every manufacturer; highend-lowend, new-old.
                The Yamaha A1020 seems like a good receiver. I like the reviews it gets.
                I too like things that are so well build it lasts forever.
                One thing I notice is that it deliver 110W in stereo where NR809 deliver 135W. Jim says the Finalists are power hungry, but maybe Im too anal :roll:

                Oh I just realize that it will cost me more than £75 to pick it up 8O

                Comment

                • Ovation
                  Super Senior Member
                  • Sep 2004
                  • 2202

                  #9
                  Don't know those speakers but the Yamaha should handle them to decent volume and, if needed/wanted, a two channel amp can be added later while the Yamaha takes care of rest of the speakers for MCH audio. Besides, the difference between 110 and 135 watts isn't likely to be audible.

                  As far as amp power goes, I'd imagine the Onkyo would be ok as well, with same options noted above. I've become a bigger fan of Yamaha's ergonomics and prefer YPAO to Onkyo's proprietary room EQ. YMMV.
                  Last edited by Ovation; 07 August 2016, 17:57 Sunday.

                  Comment

                  • Nordskov
                    Junior Member
                    • May 2016
                    • 24

                    #10
                    Ovation, you almost got me sold on that A1020
                    You are right, the 25W difference only gain 1dB or so.
                    I have read that Yamahas tonal character is on the bright side compared to ie Onkyo. But I also read, that Yamaha changed their tonal character a few years back.
                    I like tonal balance tipping slightly to mid and low. Whats your opinion on that?

                    Comment

                    • Ovation
                      Super Senior Member
                      • Sep 2004
                      • 2202

                      #11
                      I'm of the opinion that speaker design and speaker/room interaction is responsible for any tonal character in a system with a properly designed and built amplifier. A good amp, played within its limits, should not have any sound of its own. I noticed no tonal changes between my Integra, which lacks any room eq feature like Audyssey or YPAO, and my Yamaha with my speakers. I did notice an improved sound with the Yamaha after engaging YPAO (smoother high frequencies, mostly, without a loss of the clarity my speakers' tweeters are known for). The effects were subtle but noticeable (and easily checked by turning off YPAO). In a different room, YPAO might make a bigger or smaller difference--haven't tried. But in my living room, the Integra is running similar speakers (different brand) and I hear nothing that makes it "bright" or "dark".

                      I know my views on amps being neutral is not universally accepted but I've not heard anything to suggest otherwise. Differences in speakers? Yes. Differences with eq? Yes. Differences in rooms? Emphatically yes. YMMV

                      Comment

                      • Nordskov
                        Junior Member
                        • May 2016
                        • 24

                        #12
                        Then I dont have any hesitations to make a move on the A1020.

                        But now theres a Pioneer LX57 on sale. According to tests and reviews its a close contender and more powerful.
                        Argh those descisions...

                        Comment

                        • wkhanna
                          Grumpy Old Super Moderator Emeritus
                          • Jan 2006
                          • 5673

                          #13
                          argh! indeed!

                          International Talk Like A Pirate Day is soon to be upon us!
                          _


                          Bill

                          Practicing Curmudgeon & Audio Snob
                          ....just an "ON" switch, Please!

                          FinleyAudio

                          Comment

                          • oldbob
                            Member
                            • Aug 2016
                            • 53

                            #14
                            Just my 2 cents by one of my systems had a Onkyo AV receiver and after only about two years the HDMI board started having problems. I discovered that it was a fairly expensive fix and after searching the internet that it was a very prevalent problem. Might consider something else because of it.

                            Comment

                            • Nordskov
                              Junior Member
                              • May 2016
                              • 24

                              #15
                              Originally posted by oldbob
                              Just my 2 cents by one of my systems had a Onkyo AV receiver and after only about two years the HDMI board started having problems. I discovered that it was a fairly expensive fix and after searching the internet that it was a very prevalent problem. Might consider something else because of it.
                              Hi oldbob.
                              Thanks for the update. Thats exactly what I found out about the Onkyos. But as I understand, its only some years.
                              I'm still hooked on a Yamaha Ax0x0 though.
                              A A1030 has come up for sale, but reviews mention a weak midrange for both this and the A1040. How audible is that?
                              On the other hand they support Spotify which A1020 doesnt.
                              Pioneer is a no-go as it is missing grounded phono input for my turntable.
                              The seller of the A1020 is eager to sell. He has dumped the price a couple of times.

                              Comment

                              • Ovation
                                Super Senior Member
                                • Sep 2004
                                • 2202

                                #16
                                Originally posted by Nordskov
                                Hi oldbob.
                                Thanks for the update. Thats exactly what I found out about the Onkyos. But as I understand, its only some years.
                                I'm still hooked on a Yamaha Ax0x0 though.
                                A A1030 has come up for sale, but reviews mention a weak midrange for both this and the A1040. How audible is that?
                                On the other hand they support Spotify which A1020 doesnt.
                                Pioneer is a no-go as it is missing grounded phono input for my turntable.
                                The seller of the A1020 is eager to sell. He has dumped the price a couple of times.
                                I have no issues with the mid-range on my A1000. I cannot imagine the 1030 or 1040, each with more sophisticated DACs than mine, would have such issues. As far as reviews go generally, I have a few reviewers whose work I find reliable, but I also find some reviewers tend to forget the intended audience for the gear they review. Does a Yamaha Aventage AVR compete with something like Classe or McIntosh at the finest points of fidelity? No. If those are one's reference points, then a Yamaha AVR is likely to disappoint in some fashion, I guess. But within its own category, Yamaha more than holds its own (it's not the only game in town, of course, but it's not outclassed by the Denon, Marantz, Pioneer, Onkyo AVR crowd).

                                As for the A1020 and Spotify--there are multiple solutions (which will likely prove less expensive than going with a more recent Yamaha--though, if your budget allows, by all means go with a newer model). Only my personal choice, but I'd never buy (or not buy) an AVR because of a particular streaming service, especially since they are easily accessed with other gear, which can be more readily (and more cheaply) upgraded as needed than an AVR.

                                Comment

                                • Nordskov
                                  Junior Member
                                  • May 2016
                                  • 24

                                  #17
                                  Hi again Ovation.
                                  According to the different reviews I read, they all think the 1020 is very good sounding (havent read anything about the 1000). The issue is solely with 1030 and 1040, maybe because changing DAC from Burr-Brown to ESS Sabre, I dont know.
                                  The smart thing about having the streaming done in the AVR is that you dont have to turn on any monitoring og having the streaming done from another device to the AVR. And Spotify is really all I need.
                                  How do you get around ie Spotify?
                                  And who do you trust in reviews?

                                  When we talk sound quality, Im not spoiled. I have an old Technics AX6 which sounds ok but not in the least stellar. The good thing is it has an onboard subwoofer amp as my sub is passive.
                                  So any upgrade will be better than what I have now. But Im the kind of guy who wants the best for my money.

                                  Comment

                                  • Ovation
                                    Super Senior Member
                                    • Sep 2004
                                    • 2202

                                    #18
                                    Originally posted by Nordskov
                                    Hi again Ovation.
                                    According to the different reviews I read, they all think the 1020 is very good sounding (havent read anything about the 1000). The issue is solely with 1030 and 1040, maybe because changing DAC from Burr-Brown to ESS Sabre, I dont know.
                                    The smart thing about having the streaming done in the AVR is that you dont have to turn on any monitoring og having the streaming done from another device to the AVR. And Spotify is really all I need.
                                    How do you get around ie Spotify?
                                    And who do you trust in reviews?

                                    When we talk sound quality, Im not spoiled. I have an old Technics AX6 which sounds ok but not in the least stellar. The good thing is it has an onboard subwoofer amp as my sub is passive.
                                    So any upgrade will be better than what I have now. But Im the kind of guy who wants the best for my money.
                                    Sorry for the delay. Was away on vacation with very limited internet access.

                                    Sabre DACs are generally considered superior to Burr-Brown (but, much like with amps, in most cases I think DACs have matured to the point where, sonically, there should not be any differences between properly functioning units, though the ability to work with various formats [DSD, high bit PCM, etc.] stands as a good reason to explore other DACs--otherwise, outboard DACs can offer conveniences that make them worthwhile). Again, not a universally held opinion.

                                    I don't use Spotify, but I know there's an app for it for iOS and Android devices. Such devices can stream to the AVR or be plugged into the USB input in front. Using that input and the device, one can avoid the use of a display to navigate the service. Just an option. I see the appeal of having Spotify onboard (I believe it's available on the Yamahas, but I'm not certain) and, if present and something I used, I'd be happy to have an "in box" solution. It's just that I wouldn't avoid an AVR that lacks such a service if it had all the main things I look for.

                                    As to your passive sub, you'd need to get an outboard amp for it to truly benefit from its potential. It's quite possible the AVR could drive it, but a significant benefit of an active subwoofer is removing the power demands from the AVR. It would also make bass management much easier to do if you had an outboard amp for your sub.

                                    Comment

                                    • Nordskov
                                      Junior Member
                                      • May 2016
                                      • 24

                                      #19
                                      No sweat Ovation, hope you enjoyed your vacation

                                      The prime benefit of onboard Spotify is, at a party everyone can add to the play list. Streaming from phone, pc etc, if you leave the network, you take the music with you.
                                      I think you are right that DACs have reached a level where normal ears cant hear any difference. Actually I didnt mean the DACs were causing sound degredation, but the circuit may have changed causing the mid bump some talk about.
                                      How would you drive the sub from the AVR? (guess you mean the Yamaha, not my old Technics)
                                      I have given the Behringer INUKE NU3000dsp a very close look as a sub-amp. It will double as PA sub-amp when I play live music. Its so cheap.

                                      Comment

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