What would you buy among these for your home cinema?

[Ovation]

I'm contemplating a refresher of some sort for my home cinema. Nothing NEEDS to be upgraded, but it's always nice to get new things every once in a while. I'm not sure I'll actually go through with it, but I've been mulling it over anyway:

Option 1: a new subwoofer. My current subwoofer is a ten year old Boston Acoustics PV900. At the time, it compared well in performance with others of its type (even with entry level SVS back in the day) but not in price. However, I did not pay anywhere near MSRP, so in that specific instance, cost/performance was quite good. It remains satisfactory today, though I'm curious as to what a new sub would do in comparison. Additionally, a new sub for the home cinema would allow me to move my PV900 into the living room, where its duties would be lighter and thus, likely extend its useful life.

Option 2: an Oppo BD-103D. This would replace several devices I use now (one for BD, one for DVD-A/SACD, one for CD) and consolidate my gear. It would also place me in a good posture when I upgrade my display--something I will do in the medium term regardless of anything else. On the other hand, an Oppo would not alter my actual viewing or listening experience at present.

Option 3: a power amp. Probably the least practical addition in the short term, but would allow me to consider a pre-pro for my next upgrade and would possibly extend the life of my receiver's amp if I relegated it to surround duties only.

Option 4: a new receiver. Bit of a contradiction with Option 3, but would serve a different set of purposes. IF I were to do this, I am aiming very specifically for the Anthem MRX710. I nearly went with the MRX700 a few years ago, but needed more HDMI in/out than were available then. The MRX line is very attractive to me for its advanced room EQ and its beefier amp section than my current AVR. Getting the MRX would also allow me to move my current AVR to the living room, thus making it ready for the eventual HDTV upgrade in there (and simplify my current logjam of cabling with my 10 year old non-HDMI AVR that sits in the living room at the moment).

Upside of new sub is immediate upgrade of low frequency performance in both the home cinema and in the living room. Downside is the need for another Anti-Mode 8033 to EQ the sub (I have one in the home cinema at the moment and I would not go without sub EQ ever again).

Upside of Oppo is a simplified setup in the home cinema, along with excellent video performance when I upgrade the PJ. Downside is no immediate improvement in SQ and delay in benefiting from better PQ.

Upside of power amp is, well, more power and more choices when upgrading later one (AVR or pre/pro). Downside is I don't know to what extent I will actually benefit.

Upside of new receiver is immediate improvement of several audio aspects of the home cinema. Downside is it is the most expensive option by a considerable amount (50-100% more, depending on which option I compare to).

Thoughts?

[Hdale85]

Build a new subwoofer

[Ovation]

Build a new subwoofer

I'm afraid I have neither the tools nor the skills to do that. That is the kind of thing I could do in retirement (I'd have the time to learn the skills), though who knows? By then I might have gone all minimalist with a pair of headphones and a Buttkicker attached to my chair. :lol:

[Hdale85]

Well PE makes it pretty easy with their pre-fab enclosures, they even have flat pack enclosures that you just glue together and then paint or vinyle, cover in carpet, whatever you want to do. I think there are some others out there that do flat pack kits for subs as well. If none of this works for you I understand, it's just the best way to get the most for your money by a long shot.

[Ovation]

Well PE makes it pretty easy with their pre-fab enclosures, they even have flat pack enclosures that you just glue together and then paint or vinyle, cover in carpet, whatever you want to do. I think there are some others out there that do flat pack kits for subs as well. If none of this works for you I understand, it's just the best way to get the most for your money by a long shot.

At some point I wouldn't mind trying my hand at such a project. However, a few obstacles (aside from lack of tools and skills) still remain. One--the US market offers a lot of options along the lines you mention. Canada has far fewer such options and importing stuff from the US (exchange rate plus import duties and taxes) will diminish the savings considerably (which then makes the cost/benefit of the homemade version dwindle). Two--it is very likely that I'd need to do it more than once in order to "get it right". That is time (mostly) and more money. The money part isn't really the issue (I can afford all the options I listed above simultaneously--I'm just not in any hurry to spend that much all at once) but the time crunch is going to become intense in the next few years (I'm in the early stages of applying to a PhD programme--at 47 by the time it would start, with a job and two children and a wife whose job requires her to travel, I may not even have enough free time to post in here :lol: ).

But who knows? It's just as likely that I keep the status quo for a while longer and by the time I do decide to upgrade, I'll be able to tackle a DIY sub.

[Dmantis]

I'd say do the Sub first, Blu ray player second then follow up with a new AVR. Upgrading is fun, beneficial and always worth it.

[Hdale85]

Well I agree, the sub is certainly the weak link in your system. What kind of commercial offerings do you have up there? Do you have SVS?

[madmac]

I think your sub is fine..... 12 inch driver.....300 watt self powered. Nothing wrong with that!. At the end of the day, your not going to get much improvement in low freq sound by buying another one. If you currently had an 8 inch sub then yes, I would recommend getting a bigger, powered one. Oppo makes great players and they produce a great picture but they can be finicky. I had one and it broke down twice on me in less than 3 years. However, I'm not claiming that they all do, but I gotta' say I was disappointed that I paid for a premium player that didn't last that long.

Since you mention Home cinema as your main goal, A new AVR would be my choice as an upgrade. You also don't mention what you are using for speakers now. At the end of the day, the biggest improvement in any home audio setup can be found in a speaker upgrade.......subs less so. Your sub is a great quality, well powered 12 inch sub.

[Hdale85]

I doubt his 12" sub goes much below 20hz. If he upgraded to a SVS PB13 or something or some other ~15" sub he would get a lot lower.

[aud19]

Shoot for the "brown note" eh Dougie? :lol:

[Hdale85]

Just saying, a 12" sub is nice.....in a car..... in a HT you need bigger imo

[Ovation]

I'd say do the Sub first, Blu ray player second then follow up with a new AVR. Upgrading is fun, beneficial and always worth it.

The sub is what I'm leaning towards.

Well I agree, the sub is certainly the weak link in your system. What kind of commercial offerings do you have up there? Do you have SVS?

SVS has been available through a Canadian distributor for a little while now. Before, it would have been prohibitive to import. Other commercial offerings are standard brick and mortar affairs, for the most part. Axiom Audio also does the internet direct thing, but to get SVS-like performance costs quite a bit.

I think your sub is fine..... 12 inch driver.....300 watt self powered. Nothing wrong with that!. At the end of the day, your not going to get much improvement in low freq sound by buying another one. If you currently had an 8 inch sub then yes, I would recommend getting a bigger, powered one. Oppo makes great players and they produce a great picture but they can be finicky. I had one and it broke down twice on me in less than 3 years. However, I'm not claiming that they all do, but I gotta' say I was disappointed that I paid for a premium player that didn't last that long.

Since you mention Home cinema as your main goal, A new AVR would be my choice as an upgrade. You also don't mention what you are using for speakers now. At the end of the day, the biggest improvement in any home audio setup can be found in a speaker upgrade.......subs less so. Your sub is a great quality, well powered 12 inch sub.

My sub is still quite good, I agree. However, I think some of the recent offerings would give me greater "slam" in the home cinema room AND I would also be able to add my current sub to the living room system (where it would be more than ample in that space). As for speakers, I have Boston Acoustics VR-M 60s FL/FR, VRC centre, VR-M50s SL/SR, with the PV900 as a 5.1 configuration (the VR-M series was the top BA series at the time). I am as pleased with my speakers today as I was when I bought them 10 years ago. Won't be changing them for a while.

I doubt his 12" sub goes much below 20hz. If he upgraded to a SVS PB13 or something or some other ~15" sub he would get a lot lower.

True. Best I've consistently measured was 19hz, but down quite a bit (with its current placement, 22hz is pretty authoritative, measured with test tones after EQing with Anti-mode 8033--best sub EQ under 500$ I've heard that requires almost zero effort to implement). I'm not necessarily seeking to go too much lower (not seeking single digit hz performance) but I would like more output at the lowest end. If the PV900 was still on the market, I'd get a second one, but it's been discontinued for years and, as far as I know, if one is going for multiple subs, the subs should be identical. So, still torn on whether I go for one bigger SVS or two smaller. Decisions, decisions.

Thanks for all the suggestions. Will post if and when I do make an upgrade. In the meantime, further suggestions are welcome.

[aud19]

I believe HSU ships to Canada as well.

[Hdale85]

Bigger is always better than dual smaller generally. The bigger sub will play lower louder. HSU has a nice 15" sub but SVS also has some crazy nice stuff. The PB13 Ultra has some mighty fine room eq as well I believe.

[Ovation]

I believe HSU ships to Canada as well.

I think so, but you still have to go through customs and a broker. SVS has a Canadian distributor where you avoid all of that.

Bigger is always better than dual smaller generally. The bigger sub will play lower louder. HSU has a nice 15" sub but SVS also has some crazy nice stuff. The PB13 Ultra has some mighty fine room eq as well I believe.

I always thought a dual sub setup would make it easier to get a flatter response across the frequency range (but it's been awhile since I read up on sub performance in any great detail--my current setup has been set for nearly ten years regarding sub placement as I left it in place when I added the 8033 EQ and changed my AVR a few years ago [it doesn't EQ the sub]). Guess I'll have to read up before making a choice.

[Hdale85]

It could, but it could also cause more issues due to cancellations, but it all depends on how well you're able to set it up. With auto room EQ you can shape some of that a bit. So I guess it depends on what you're planning to do with it? You can get a lot of low output from some of the modern 12" subs though.

[madmac]

I doubt his 12" sub goes much below 20hz. If he upgraded to a SVS PB13 or something or some other ~15" sub he would get a lot lower.

There is little or no audio from any source below 20hz. If the dude is getting what he claims is 19hz then that's good enough. However, a sub's driver is never too big in my opinion. I mean, if he wants to get a 15 inch powered sub (and it better be well powered!) then more power to him. All I'm saying is that most audio/ video players poop out at 20hz (Hence the 20- 20khz ratings of most modern equipment) . Also, any equipment that claims it goes higher than 20khz is laughable because we can't hear it anyway!.

[Hdale85]

He said this is for HT, there are plenty of HT soundtracks that go WELL below 20hz. Many of them even go into the single digits. Plenty of modern HT equipment plays below 20hz and can output below 20hz as long as the sub can handle it. Look at all the reviews that use things like War Of The Worlds for the 8hz bass test located in it.

Also not all 15" subs require gobs of power. There are lots of subs that get quite loud at the 15" size with only 300-500 watts.

[Ovation]

There is little or no audio from any source below 20hz. If the dude is getting what he claims is 19hz then that's good enough. However, a sub's driver is never too big in my opinion. I mean, if he wants to get a 15 inch powered sub (and it better be well powered!) then more power to him. All I'm saying is that most audio/ video players poop out at 20hz (Hence the 20- 20khz ratings of most modern equipment) . Also, any equipment that claims it goes higher than 20khz is laughable because we can't hear it anyway!.

The 19hz is measurable with test tones, one hz at a time, but it is down nearly 10dB from 22hz (at least in my current room placement and EQ), so it's not all that useful (except to indicate the sub goes close to 20hz when, back then, relatively few commercial subs, even at much higher prices, managed to break 27 or 26Hz as a low end). As to sub-20hz material, as noted below, lots of movies have it (and I've experienced it in setups a lot more high end than mine). However, movies are not the only source--a lot of pipe organ recordings contain sub-20hz material and I like to give some of those the occasional whirl in the system. Wouldn't mind reaching down to the lower registers.

He said this is for HT, there are plenty of HT soundtracks that go WELL below 20hz. Many of them even go into the single digits. Plenty of modern HT equipment plays below 20hz and can output below 20hz as long as the sub can handle it. Look at all the reviews that use things like War Of The Worlds for the 8hz bass test located in it.

Also not all 15" subs require gobs of power. There are lots of subs that get quite loud at the 15" size with only 300-500 watts.

True. That much I remember from researching subs for a friend of mine about 5 years ago.

[Ovation]

Pretty much settled on getting a new sub (or two--still debating that one) and I've settled on SVS as the best commercial option available in Canada without customs hassles. Trying to decide if I go ported or sealed (always something :lol: ). Most likely I will get the SB2000 and maybe add another one in a year or two. Sadly, unlike SVS in the US, there is no free return shipping with the Canadian distributor, so ordering an SB2000 and its ported cousin the PB2000 for a comparison would be a costlier affair.

May not happen until the fall anyway, so maybe I can justify the extra cost by then.

[Hdale85]

Not sure about over there, but over here you get a discount if you buy 2 lol.

[Ovation]

Not sure about over there, but over here you get a discount if you buy 2 lol.

There is a discount for two (not huge, but better than nothing). Still have to factor in a sub EQ, though. Neither my receiver in the living room (where the old sub will go) nor in the HT will EQ the sub and, having lived with the benefits of my Anti-mode 8033, I won't go without EQ for the sub again. Sadly, the special price I paid for my 8033 at the Montreal audio show a few years ago is no longer available.

[Hdale85]

Can you not run both subs off the one EQ?

[Ovation]

Can you not run both subs off the one EQ?

I could if I were keeping them in the same room. However, my intention is to move the old sub into the living room, so I would need an EQ for each room.

[Hdale85]

Oh ok, can you not get a decent enough setup on the secondary system without the EQ?

[Ovation]

Oh ok, can you not get a decent enough setup on the secondary system without the EQ?

I won't know until I try, but my experience with an EQ'd sub does not inspire me to go back to any system that does not have EQ for the sub. Perhaps it will be fine without one in this case, though, as the living room is on the main floor which is basically 80% open, and in such a large space, lower end bloating is not going to be an issue. Also, I'm looking to supplement some stand-mounted speakers on the low end for 2 channel music (with very occasional DVD/BD viewing). I'm not looking to create the "slam" of a home cinema setup (that's what the "man-cave" is for, of course). My main concern, though, is the limited placement options I have for the sub, as it is a multipurpose space that I cannot simply re-arrange for "best sound" without regard to other things. Guess I'll see when I get around to the upgrade.

[Ovation]

Decided to play around with my sub placement and EQ to see if I could improve the SQ I get from my current sub before dropping 1000$ on an upgrade. First I tried a feature on my EQ I'd left alone until now--lift 25hz and lift 35hz. Each one applies a roughly 7db boost centred on the labeled frequency. First time my sub ever made undesirable noises so I went back to the original setting (fortunately only takes a push of a button).

Next up was moving the sub. Very minor decrease in slam at main listening position, so original placement works best (among my limited options). Then I tried sitting in the various seats (also limited in number--small space). Depressing result is the best seat for bass is worst for other five speakers. If I got that performance at the MLP I might not change my sub. However, I'm stuck with the current layout of furniture and rest of stuff in that room for at least another five years, so I'm going to go with new SVS PB-2000. Besides, I've had the other one for ten years. It's not like I upgrade every six months.

[Ovation]

Officially pulled the trigger on an SVS PB-2000. Looking forward to setting it up when it arrives.

[P-Dub]

Nice! :T Looking forward to your thoughts once you get it installed.

[Ovation]

Will have the house to myself for two weeks, so I should be able to experiment to my heart's content (assuming I can wrestle the thing into the basement--shipped weight is nearly 90lbs and I'm no Ahnuld).

[John Holmes]

I'd be interested in knowing how it works out for you. Hope you have fun!

[Ovation]

PB-2000 in the house! Thankfully, the Purolator guy helped me carry it into the basement (he was probably happy I helped him get it off the truck). Big box! Sadly won't be able to really play with it for a couple of days, but I'm sure it'll be worth the wait (wasn't expecting delivery, when I ordered it, until Thurs. or Fri. anyway).

[Ovation]

Got the best result from the PB-2000 by keeping my PV900 as a second sub (low output level placed next to the main listening position--kills a nasty null that would otherwise be there if the SVS was by itself).

The first graph shows the SVS alone with EQ (pinkish trace) vs. the two subs without EQ (yellow trace). The two subs without EQ are reasonably flat above 40hz but there is a sizeable hump between 20 and 40hz. Adding the EQ (red trace in second graph) flattens it further (though there is still a bit of extra energy below 40hz that I guess I'll have to live with). The green trace shows the SVS alone without any EQ (the hump below 40 hz is a lot worse and there is a nasty null at about 43hz--made deeper, though narrower, with EQ, but without the second sub).

Bottom line, after much measurement and placement experimentation (within my feasible options), I'm pretty happy with the results. I could tweak further (naturally), but I think I'll just enjoy for now. This setup give me a LOT more low end grunt and, with the EQ, a more articulate bass across the spectrum. The EQ is an Anti-mode 8033C (older model). Easiest auto sub EQ to use (not attached to an AVR) by far. I think I'd have to spend a lot more money to get better results out an EQ (or no money if I had more placement options, but's that not on the table).

This thing is a beast (weighs twice as much as my old sub and takes up about 3 times the volume).

Oh, on the second graph, the red trace measurement was accidentally taken at a higher volume setting on my AVR (so it's about 7dB "hot" compared to the green trace, but the shape of the trace remains accurate).

All measurement done with REW and my Antimode mic (with calibration file for REW engaged).

[Ovation]

A revised graph, showing the SVS alone without EQ, alone with EQ and combined with the PV900 with EQ. The scale of the graph is logarithmic, rather than linear, as, apparently, this makes for a better graph according to those who take of REW. So far, sounds great. Green trace was recorded with a lower volume setting, so the peak at 22 or so hz would be about 7dB higher than it is, just to give an idea of how effective the Anti-mode 8033C subwoofer EQ system is for taming big peaks.

[John Holmes]

Glad you're happy with the purchase. Thanks for letting us know how it worked out.