11.1 Surround Sound

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  • wettou
    Ultra Senior Member
    • May 2006
    • 3389

    11.1 Surround Sound

    Ok, I would like to start this thread as one of my goal is to develop a room wher I can install the ideal 11.4 surround sound system for movies.

    Using either Audyssey DSX 11.1 surround sound or DTS Neo:X

    "Experiments have shown that human localization is better in front than to the sides or behind. This means that for front-weighted content such as movies and most music, good engineering dictates that we employ more channels in the front hemisphere than the back. Imaging is also better horizontally than vertically and so good engineering also dictates that channels must first be added in the same plane as our ears before going to higher elevations.

    Perception is not the only factor. The physics of room acoustics for music have been well studied, and their correlation with subjective impression increasingly understood over the last 30 years. This research has shown that we have strong built-in preferences for the direction, frequency response, and time of arrival of reflected sound. Additional channels and surround sound processing are needed to properly render these components.



    Audyssey DSX Configurations

    11.1 SURROUND: A

    Wides before Heights

    One key finding from the research is that first side wall reflections play a great role in determining subjective impression. The most important direction of reflected sound was found to be ±60° relative to the front. Audyssey DSX provides a pair of Wide channels (LW and RW) at ±60° with appropriate frequency response and perceptual processing to match these requirements of human hearing. These Wide channels are much more critical in the presentation of a realistic soundstage than the Back Surround channels found in traditional 7.1 systems. Adding surround channels behind the listener has a very small impact compared to the increase in envelopment and soundstage width that the Wide channels provide.


    The next most important acoustical and perceptual cues come from reflections above the front stage. Audyssey DSX provides a pair of Height channels (LH and RH) that should be ideally positioned at a 45° elevation angle.
    "
    Farming looks mighty easy when your plow is a pencil, and you're a thousand miles from the corn field."Dwight D. Eisenhower
  • wettou
    Ultra Senior Member
    • May 2006
    • 3389

    #2
    So with That here is what I am thinking about

    - 11 B&W 805Diamond
    - 4 JL Audio F113
    - Onkyo PR-SC5508
    - 2 Classé CA-5300

    - JVC DLA RS60U
    - 150" 2:35 Stewart Filmscreen
    Farming looks mighty easy when your plow is a pencil, and you're a thousand miles from the corn field."Dwight D. Eisenhower

    Comment

    • Hdale85
      Moderator Emeritus
      • Jan 2006
      • 16075

      #3
      I haven't experienced this yet, but my friend has and he loves it. I have experienced 7.1 with wides or heights which was interesting. I plan to go 11.1 when I have my own theater though for sure!

      Comment

      • Silver1omo
        Senior Member
        • Sep 2010
        • 430

        #4
        My math is failing here.
        The pre is advertised as 9.2 and the amps are 5 channel each (10 total).

        I'm I missing something?

        Originally posted by wettou
        So with That here is what I am thinking about

        - 11 B&W 805Diamond
        - 4 JL Audio F113
        - Onkyo PR-SC5508
        - 2 Classé CA-5300

        - JVC DLA RS60U
        - 150" 2:35 Stewart Filmscreen
        Ivan.
        My Statement monitors

        Comment

        • wettou
          Ultra Senior Member
          • May 2006
          • 3389

          #5
          Originally posted by Silver1omo
          My math is failing here. The pre is advertised as 9.2 and the amps are 5 channel each (10 total).

          I'm I missing something?
          There are no 11.1 pre/pro yet

          I will add the CA-M300 for the center channel
          Farming looks mighty easy when your plow is a pencil, and you're a thousand miles from the corn field."Dwight D. Eisenhower

          Comment

          • Silver1omo
            Senior Member
            • Sep 2010
            • 430

            #6


            In the audyssey forum they say that the only DSX 11.1 pre/pro out there are denon 4810 and 4311.
            Ivan.
            My Statement monitors

            Comment

            • wettou
              Ultra Senior Member
              • May 2006
              • 3389

              #7
              CEDIA 2011 we will see new pre/pro with 11.1 channels, Onkyo, Denon with DSX and DTS Neo:X maybe even Marantz?
              Farming looks mighty easy when your plow is a pencil, and you're a thousand miles from the corn field."Dwight D. Eisenhower

              Comment

              • Hdale85
                Moderator Emeritus
                • Jan 2006
                • 16075

                #8
                The 4311 is a 9.2 channel receiver with the ability to shut off all internal amps and run as a true pre/pro. The extra channels come from pre-outs so you have to add an amp.

                There are a few new options coming out soon from Onkyo and Pioneer. The Onkyo options are rumored to have 11 channels of onboard power as well though.

                Comment

                • wettou
                  Ultra Senior Member
                  • May 2006
                  • 3389

                  #9
                  Originally posted by Hdale85
                  The 4311 is a 9.2 channel receiver with the ability to shut off all internal amps and run as a true pre/pro. The extra channels come from pre-outs so you have to add an amp. There are a few new options coming out soon from Onkyo and Pioneer. The Onkyo options are rumored to have 11 channels of onboard power as well though.
                  Cool let us know
                  Farming looks mighty easy when your plow is a pencil, and you're a thousand miles from the corn field."Dwight D. Eisenhower

                  Comment

                  • Hdale85
                    Moderator Emeritus
                    • Jan 2006
                    • 16075

                    #10
                    Probably won't hear about the 11.2 capable ones until we get closer to Septemberish.

                    Comment

                    • Chris D
                      Moderator Emeritus
                      • Dec 2000
                      • 16877

                      #11
                      I've never experienced a system with the extra front width channels, but have previous used front height channels myself. While they're not overwhelming, I do think they're useful, as they stretch the front soundstage in the vertical direction. I have to think we're reaching the point of diminishing returns, though.

                      If it were me, I'd add a ceiling speaker like THX experimented with years ago. But i can see why that would raise safety issues for many systems.
                      CHRIS

                      Well, we're safe for now. Thank goodness we're in a bowling alley.
                      - Pleasantville

                      Comment

                      • Hdale85
                        Moderator Emeritus
                        • Jan 2006
                        • 16075

                        #12
                        I think getting much more then 11 channels would start to be past that point Chris. But I think a properly setup room with 7.1 + the wides and heights has a lot to offer. The only other thing I could see as being useful maybe is an overhead channel above the listener and even that I'm not sure. I think the height channels can give you that same sort of experience if setup properly.

                        Comment

                        • wettou
                          Ultra Senior Member
                          • May 2006
                          • 3389

                          #13
                          I am not sure height channels are worth it Yamaha used to have ambiance channels equivalent to height channels and that didn't work very well.



                          What if the 11 channels are just around at -150º, -120º,-90º,-60º ,-30º, 0 Center, 30º, 60º, 90º, 120º, 150º. Then the money seat is equidistant to all channels like seven to ten feet away from the central seat.

                          In addition the four subs are either in each corners of at the mid point in each wall


                          Farming looks mighty easy when your plow is a pencil, and you're a thousand miles from the corn field."Dwight D. Eisenhower

                          Comment

                          • Hdale85
                            Moderator Emeritus
                            • Jan 2006
                            • 16075

                            #14
                            Well from what I've heard the DSX heights are supposed to be better then what Yamaha used to do. Just because they both used the same positions doesn't mean they perform the same.

                            Comment

                            • wettou
                              Ultra Senior Member
                              • May 2006
                              • 3389

                              #15
                              Originally posted by Hdale85
                              Well from what I've heard the DSX heights are supposed to be better then what Yamaha used to do. Just because they both used the same positions doesn't mean they perform the same.
                              Agreed, I need to experience it that's all :B
                              Farming looks mighty easy when your plow is a pencil, and you're a thousand miles from the corn field."Dwight D. Eisenhower

                              Comment

                              • Hdale85
                                Moderator Emeritus
                                • Jan 2006
                                • 16075

                                #16
                                Yeah I'll definitely be looking for an 11 channel pre/pro or receiver when I finally do my HT so at the very least I'll have the option. But I rarely have the option and don't use it

                                Comment

                                • Bob
                                  Senior Member
                                  • Jul 2000
                                  • 802

                                  #17
                                  In your average home, not in a large commercial theater, what do all those channels do? Not trying to start a negative debate. Am honestly curious.

                                  Comment

                                  • Hdale85
                                    Moderator Emeritus
                                    • Jan 2006
                                    • 16075

                                    #18
                                    Through DSX or NeoX it uses algorithms to try and help place sound in movies better where they are supposed to be. An explosion may expand much higher then what your front speakers are able to simulate, there for it may send some information to both the heights and wides to give you a better sense of how big the explosion is.

                                    Comment

                                    • wettou
                                      Ultra Senior Member
                                      • May 2006
                                      • 3389

                                      #19
                                      Originally posted by Hdale85
                                      Through DSX or NeoX it uses algorithms to try and help place sound in movies better where they are supposed to be. An explosion may expand much higher then what your front speakers are able to simulate, there for it may send some information to both the heights and wides to give you a better sense of how big the explosion is.
                                      Cool, here we are Onkyo TX-NR1009 has it all :T and for $1400

                                      TX-NR1009
                                      9.2-Channel Network A/V Receiver
                                      • HDMI Support for 3D Video and Audio Return Channel
                                      • High-Quality HQV® Vida™ VHD1900 Video Processor
                                      • Marvell Qdeo™ 4K Upscaling and Processing
                                      • Network Capability Delivers Internet Radio and Network Streaming
                                      • Compatible with UWF-1 Wireless LAN Adapter (via Front-Panel USB Port)
                                      • ISF (Imaging Science Foundation) Video Calibration for Optimal Video Performance
                                      • THX® Select2 Plus™ Certified
                                      • DTS Neo:X™Adds Extra Dimensions to Surround Sound
                                      • Audyssey MultEQ® XT Advanced Room-correction and Speaker Calibration
                                      • Direct Digital Connection of iPod/iPhone via Front-Panel USB Port
                                      • Onkyo Remote App for iPod/iPhone
                                      http://www.us.onkyo.com/prod_class.cfm?class=Receiver

                                      Too bad the high end companies can't keep up with technology I am curious to hear how it sound?
                                      Farming looks mighty easy when your plow is a pencil, and you're a thousand miles from the corn field."Dwight D. Eisenhower

                                      Comment

                                      • Hdale85
                                        Moderator Emeritus
                                        • Jan 2006
                                        • 16075

                                        #20
                                        Except the 1009 doesn't do 11 channels, you're limited to 9.2. So you can have say the standard 5.1 setup and then have heights and wides, or you can have 7.2 with either heights or wides.

                                        The 3009 and 5009 are the ones that may have 11 channels of onboard amplification. At the very least the 3009 will be 9.2 with pre-outs to expand to full 11.2.

                                        Comment

                                        • Kevin D
                                          Ultra Senior Member
                                          • Oct 2002
                                          • 4601

                                          #21
                                          The problem is it's all assumptions. Even if we had discrete 11 channels, we still can't be sure.

                                          A year ago I would have said 11 discrete channels and it would probably be worth it. That's before I sat through a class with a guy that mixes a lot of the 7.1 channel blu-ray mixes. He did the new Sound of Music and a lot of other movies.

                                          Basically I was under the assumption that if you had one of the recommended 7.1 channel setups and a 7.1 channel DTS-HD or TrueHD signal, you were experiencing what the mixer wanted. Unfortunately this is not the case. Each mixer mixes with the setup they prefer. This guy uses two side channels and two rear channels. It will not sound the same when played back through a system with two rears and two center rears.

                                          He said the new formats support flags to tell the processor where the rear channels were positioned during mixing, and originally the new DSP's were to have a position setting and dynamically adjust the sound to fit. That of course never happened.

                                          So you can have two setups and switch between them depending upon who mixed it, you can pick one and have the sound correct roughly half the time, or you can skew the setup and compromise both mixing techniques.

                                          So off the bat, a 9 or 11 channel system will be guessing at what to put where. Later on, you might see matrixed or discrete 9/11 channels sound tracks. Unless you have your speakers placed exactly the way the mixer had his, you'll still be guessing at what's right.

                                          So long story short, it's hard enough to get 5 and even 7 speakers positioned right. 9 or 11 will be a nightmare.

                                          Kevin D.

                                          Comment

                                          • Bob
                                            Senior Member
                                            • Jul 2000
                                            • 802

                                            #22
                                            I dunno about more channels. When I went from 5.1 to 8.1 with very careful speaker placement including heights I personally felt I gained nothing. But, maybe my room was to small (20x24). I understand the reasoning but, well, what the heck. Whatever floats your boat.

                                            By the way, nice CAD drawing. I think if you play around a little with placement you will find that 90° isn't the best for the side speakers though. When I fiddled with them they seemed to work better slightly behind my head.

                                            Comment

                                            • Lex
                                              Moderator Emeritus
                                              • Apr 2001
                                              • 27461

                                              #23
                                              I am happy with Pseudo 7.1, in fact, gain not so much from sides very often, occasionally only can you really tell the difference, yes if discrete, might gain a bit more, but my space is to inhibiting for additional channels and my sides and rears are really to close to gain maximum benefit anyway.
                                              Doug
                                              "I'm out there Jerry, and I'm loving every minute of it!" - Kramer

                                              Comment

                                              • PanteraGSTK
                                                Junior Member
                                                • Aug 2009
                                                • 27

                                                #24
                                                I'm about to get my avr-4311ci and use my existing 5.1 receiver for the extra channels. My room barely accommodates the correct angles for width and height placement so it should work very well. My width will end up somewhere around 55 degrees so it will be pretty nice.

                                                I won't use anything other than 7.1 for a while until I build my speakers.

                                                I'm eager to see what you guys do.

                                                Comment

                                                • rickyo
                                                  Junior Member
                                                  • Jul 2006
                                                  • 26

                                                  #25
                                                  Hi guys,been away for so loooong. Really interested with this topic. Since I have my 5.1 set up for the longest time, I was looking for a new COST effective alternative. Although my 5.1 still gives me pleasure I was still looking for ways to improve how I hear sounds from it. Then one day my sister commissioned me to built her an ht in her new house,wow my chance to experiment. Got her 3 pieces of JBL LC2 wall hung speakers for the front left-right-center and 2 pairs of JBL in ceiling speakers for the side and rear surrounds to complete a 7.1 system. I hung the fronts 5ft from the floor tilting down a bit to the listener and directly to the side of the projection screen so that the sound may seem really coming from the screen. The center I hung underneath the screen but tilting a bit up towards the listener. I then placed the side surround on the ceiling a bit behind the listening position and the rear surround directly behind the LP. For the ceiling speakers I aimed the tweeters towards the LP.
                                                  The result was good based from my past listening experiences. It's more enveloping now compared to setups using floorstanders for the fronts. For my next adjustment, I will try to place the center speaker directly above the screen and tilting down towards the LP so as to make the dialogues more in placed with the visuals. I hope I made sense.
                                                  I'm sure getting the proper 9.2 and 11.4 would be awesome, but not at the moment for me. No time a.k.a money

                                                  Comment

                                                  • madmac
                                                    Moderator Emeritus
                                                    • Aug 2010
                                                    • 3122

                                                    #26
                                                    I recommend the opposite with the center channel. Putting it high above the TV and listener 'thins' the sound of what is the most important channel in multi channel music and home theater. Put it lower than higher. This will give the center more bass and presence.
                                                    Dan Madden :T

                                                    Comment

                                                    • rickyo
                                                      Junior Member
                                                      • Jul 2006
                                                      • 26

                                                      #27
                                                      ^thnks bro, now I don't need to experiment further and spend on ceiling speaker mount.

                                                      Comment

                                                      • wettou
                                                        Ultra Senior Member
                                                        • May 2006
                                                        • 3389

                                                        #28
                                                        The SRS Circle Cinema 3D Audio Listening Experience

                                                        SRS Cinema 3D

                                                        Farming looks mighty easy when your plow is a pencil, and you're a thousand miles from the corn field."Dwight D. Eisenhower

                                                        Comment

                                                        • wettou
                                                          Ultra Senior Member
                                                          • May 2006
                                                          • 3389

                                                          #29
                                                          Here is the new
                                                          Onkyo TX-NR5010 11.2-Channel THX ULTRA 2 Certified

                                                          http://www.onkyousa.com/Video/TX-NR5010.swfThe first to incorporate DTS NEOX 11.4 look at the specs all that for a third of an SSP-800, now I wonder how it sound?


                                                          Tradition Meets Technology in Our Stunning New Flagship Model

                                                          The culmination of nearly 70 years’ audio engineering experience, our flagship model celebrates Onkyo’s proud heritage while pushing the boundaries of technology even further. Behind the thick anti-resonant exterior panels, you’ll find a massive toroidal transformer—assisted by separate transformers for audio and video processing—to power the Three-Stage Inverted Darlington Circuitry. Both are fundamental to achieving THX® Ultra2 Plus certification.


                                                          Crucial details such as the premium 192 kHz/32-bit DACs, gold-plated speaker posts and terminals, and differential DAC mode will not escape the audiophile’s attention.


                                                          Nor will the Audyssey MultEQ® XT32 and DTS Neo:X™ systems.


                                                          Video processing is incomparably good, with technology from HQV®, Qdeo™, and ISF upscaling video sources to 4K.


                                                          With HDMI® support for two displays, 11.4-channel pre-outs, and powered audio in three zones, your entertainment options extend throughout the home, yet are easily managed with our convenient remote apps and HDMI-enabled GUI.


                                                          A total of 11 HDMI ports (including MHL™ for smart phone), DLNA, and ample legacy connections allow your media to be played with exhilarating power and accuracy.


                                                          Special Features
                                                          • 9in/2out HDMI Support for 3D, Audio Return Channel, DeepColor™, x.v.Color™, LipSync, Dolby® TrueHD, DTS-HD Master Audio™, DVD-Audio, Super Audio CD, Multichannel PCM, and CEC
                                                          • THX Ultra2 Plus Certified
                                                          • Massive Toroidal Transformer and Two Separate Transformers for Audio and Video Processing
                                                          • 11.4 Multichannel Pre-Outs
                                                          • Network Capability Delivers Internet Radio and Network Streaming
                                                          • Dual Core Video Engine w/ HQV Vida and Marvell Qdeo™ Processing
                                                          • MHL™ (Mobile High-Definition Link) for Smart Phone Content on HDTV
                                                          • Picture-in-Picture Input Source Preview with InstaPrevue™ Technology
                                                          • Zone 2 HDMI Output for HD Video in a Second Zone
                                                          • Digital Crossover Processing Network to Cancel Crossover Interference
                                                          • Direct Digital Connection of iPod/iPhone via Front-Panel USB Port
                                                          • Onkyo Remote App for iPod/iPhone
                                                          • DTS Neo:X, Dolby® Pro Logic® IIz and Audyssey DSX Add New Dimensions to Surround Sound
                                                          • Hybrid Standby Function to Reduce Power Consumption
                                                          Farming looks mighty easy when your plow is a pencil, and you're a thousand miles from the corn field."Dwight D. Eisenhower

                                                          Comment

                                                          • aud19
                                                            Twin Moderator Emeritus
                                                            • Aug 2003
                                                            • 16706

                                                            #30
                                                            Originally posted by wettou
                                                            Personally I'm more interested in this route for future equipment. You get a full "3D" audio environment regardless of your speaker count (to a point obviously). More speakers will likely equate to a "fuller" experience, sure but it's a much smarter overall approach IMO.

                                                            I'm apparently not alone as DTS has apparently acquired this tech.


                                                            DTS to Acquire SRS Labs in Cash-and-Stock Transaction

                                                            CALABASAS, Calif. and SANTA ANA, Calif., April 17, 2012 (GLOBE NEWSWIRE) -- DTS, Inc. (NasdaqTSI), a leader in high-definition audio, and SRS Labs, Inc. (Nasdaq:SRSL), a leader in audio processing and enhancement technologies, today announced that they have entered into a definitive agreement under which DTS will acquire all outstanding shares of SRS Labs in a cash-and-stock transaction valued at $9.50 per share, or a total of approximately $148 million in aggregate equity value, including acquired net cash of approximately $38 million as of December 31, 2011. The consideration represents a premium of 38% per share over SRS Labs' stock price as of the close of trading on April 16, 2012. Under the terms of the agreement, the cash and stock components will each equal 50% of the aggregate consideration paid by DTS for SRS Labs' outstanding shares. The DTS common stock to be issued in the transaction was valued at $30.52 per share, the closing price per share of DTS common stock on April 12, 2012. All SRS Labs options and restricted stock units will fully vest immediately prior to and be canceled upon the closing of the transaction, and the holders thereof will be entitled to receive the $9.50 price per share (less the exercise price of any option) payable in cash... (more)
                                                            Jason

                                                            Comment

                                                            • madmac
                                                              Moderator Emeritus
                                                              • Aug 2010
                                                              • 3122

                                                              #31
                                                              Originally posted by Bob
                                                              In your average home, not in a large commercial theater, what do all those channels do? Not trying to start a negative debate. Am honestly curious.
                                                              Agreed Bob...... :roll:
                                                              Dan Madden :T

                                                              Comment

                                                              • Chris D
                                                                Moderator Emeritus
                                                                • Dec 2000
                                                                • 16877

                                                                #32
                                                                Huh. I was curious what the 11.4 configuration would be, so I watched the swf video. I think it says it's 9.2.

                                                                I did see that it has a dedicated zone 2 HDMI output. That's cool.
                                                                CHRIS

                                                                Well, we're safe for now. Thank goodness we're in a bowling alley.
                                                                - Pleasantville

                                                                Comment

                                                                • Hdale85
                                                                  Moderator Emeritus
                                                                  • Jan 2006
                                                                  • 16075

                                                                  #33
                                                                  All those speakers just even out the sound field and give better positioning of sound all around you. It's basically a 9.1 setup with a set of height speakers at the front, and a set of wide speakers at the front.

                                                                  Comment

                                                                  • wettou
                                                                    Ultra Senior Member
                                                                    • May 2006
                                                                    • 3389

                                                                    #34
                                                                    There is a great article about SRS new technology called MDA



                                                                    Farming looks mighty easy when your plow is a pencil, and you're a thousand miles from the corn field."Dwight D. Eisenhower

                                                                    Comment

                                                                    • aud19
                                                                      Twin Moderator Emeritus
                                                                      • Aug 2003
                                                                      • 16706

                                                                      #35
                                                                      Yup, that's the future IMO.
                                                                      Jason

                                                                      Comment

                                                                      • wettou
                                                                        Ultra Senior Member
                                                                        • May 2006
                                                                        • 3389

                                                                        #36
                                                                        I am not sure it will be available any time soon but who knows in 3 or four years when OELD TV are approachable and 8K is the norm.
                                                                        Farming looks mighty easy when your plow is a pencil, and you're a thousand miles from the corn field."Dwight D. Eisenhower

                                                                        Comment

                                                                        • Chris D
                                                                          Moderator Emeritus
                                                                          • Dec 2000
                                                                          • 16877

                                                                          #37
                                                                          I wonder what the time-shifting sound is. Speakers on motorized tracks, that move based on what the sound field is?
                                                                          CHRIS

                                                                          Well, we're safe for now. Thank goodness we're in a bowling alley.
                                                                          - Pleasantville

                                                                          Comment

                                                                          • madmac
                                                                            Moderator Emeritus
                                                                            • Aug 2010
                                                                            • 3122

                                                                            #38
                                                                            Originally posted by Chris D
                                                                            I wonder what the time-shifting sound is. Speakers on motorized tracks, that move based on what the sound field is?

                                                                            ......and they should call it 'Wobulation technology' !! :T
                                                                            Dan Madden :T

                                                                            Comment

                                                                            • baranowski
                                                                              Junior Member
                                                                              • May 2012
                                                                              • 20

                                                                              #39
                                                                              wow I can barly get my 7.1 to work great

                                                                              Comment

                                                                              • baranowski
                                                                                Junior Member
                                                                                • May 2012
                                                                                • 20

                                                                                #40
                                                                                And that is with a 7.1 recording. and there are not that many

                                                                                Comment

                                                                                • baranowski
                                                                                  Junior Member
                                                                                  • May 2012
                                                                                  • 20

                                                                                  #41
                                                                                  One more thing, running the B&W's would require more current for good sound than the A/V receiver.

                                                                                  Comment

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