Next HT upgrade/update -- Speakers?

[Stoopalini]

You guys have been a big help in the past assisting me with picking out a new receiver and TV. Now I'm wanting to upgrade my speakers.

My system now consists of:

• Denon AVR987
• Sharp 46D62U
• BIC America DV52CLR center
• BIC America DV52si fronts
• Sound Dynamics RTS-RS1s rears
• DIY 12" Shiva Sonotube Sub (powered by an Adcom GFA-545)

I'd like to replace the front stage, at least, due to the center speaker not performing as well as I'd like. During high volume situations, the center seems to pop, or distort somewhat, during pans. Example, is the DTS into trailer on the Eagles DTS DVD. The sweep across the front stage just sounds horrible when it hits the center speaker.
I'm thinking of picking up 4 NHT Superone's and a Supercenter. I would move the Sound Dynamics to the additional 2 channels the Denon provides as side speakers, and use the NHTs for rear surrounds and the front stage.

I'm curious if the change from my current setup to the NHTs will be worth while? The current center I have has 2 5.25" drivers with a 3/4" tweeter; while the Supercenter has 2 4.5" drivers with a 1" tweeter. Will the quality increase of the NHT out perform the larger driver's in the BIC speakers?

any opinions are greatly appreciated!
Thomas.

[Stoopalini]

Any help is appreciated guys.

I have a line on 4 superones and a supercenter for $400, and am wondering if this will be worth it; or if I can find a better setup for $400.

Thanks!
Thomas.

[John Holmes]

Stoopalini,

I've not heard either speaker so, I'm really in no position to comment on which is truly better. I do know that, the NHT's have received solid reviews. And there also appears to be quite a few satisfied BIC owners.

Your point about going to the smaller drivers are valid. Not only does this change the amount of air/volume/sound the speakers are able to produce, it may also mean using a higher crossover point. Which may or may not cause other changes in the response in your room.

If you have no doubt the center is bad but, are happy with the BIC's, you could try to find a replacement. If you just want to go a different route in sound altogether, then give the NHT's a shot. I would try to audtion the NHT's first if possible.

You've by now, become very used to the BIC sound. The NHT sound maybe different, but not better. Especially depending if using your speakers near-field.

[Stoopalini]

Thanks John.

The smaller drivers in the NHT had me wondering about the response of the speaker, but the specs show it to be right in line with the BIC; just not sure if I should be considering other factors as well.

I did listen to some NHT Superones a few years back when helping my uncle search for speakers. I remember leaving the store trying to figure out a way to sell my BICs and get the NHTs. That said, I'm fairly confident the Superones will outperform my BIC mains.

I'm not sure my center is bad, as in damaged, just not up to what I would like in terms of quality. Not only do I hear artifacts when played at high levels, but when played at low levels it is very muffled. This makes it difficult to watch movies at night when the little one is in bed. A quiet scene comes on, and we have to turn it up to hear the dialogue, then an explosion happens and my sonosub wakes the kid up if we don't get to the volume in time!

The room is 24' wide x 17' deep, and the mains are aprox 6' on eiter side of the center. One drawback is I have the speakers in a 13'
wide built in entertainment center. The BIC mains are rear ported, and the center is front ported. The ports combined with the fact they are sitting in basically a bookshelf, may be adding to the muffled dialogue sound we're hearing. I know the Superones are sealed, which I assume is the way to go with my kind of setup, but not sure if the Supercenter is sealed or ported. I assume it is sealed, but not sure?

I guess I am convinced I need new speakers, it's just a matter of which to get at this point. $400 for the 5 NHTs seems like a good deal, but the question I now ask myself is if I can find a better deal on just 3 front stage speakers for $400?

Thansk for the input,
Thomas.

[John Holmes]

You're welcome, Thomas!

That's why we're here. A confirmation or different point of view can go a long way in assisting us in narrowing down our options.

I also agree with you. The entertainment unit is a contributing factor to you problems. As is the rear ported speakers in them.

The dynamic range in Dolby and DTS will do the loudness vs. quiet dialog thing. It's designed that way. You'll need to use your Dynamic Range Compression scheme on the Denon. It maybe called 'Night Mode" or something different ( different mfg's use different names) but, the results are the same. It will balance the sound so that, the dialog and loud passages are about the same level. I've used it many times. And it works well.

13' might be a strecth for the NHT's. You may want to give them a call or send them an email. Ask about Superones meeting your needs in that application. They should be able to give you good advice about the Superones or the need to step up to the next level.

[H.T.C]

Midnite cinema is also a name it may go by for dynamic compression.

[Stoopalini]

Ya, the dynamic range feature in the Denon does compress the signal and make a difference, but the volume still needs to be up pretty loud to get clarity out of the center for dialogue. It's one of the main reasons I want to replace it. At one point, I turned the center off which routed the signal through the mains; but with them so far apart, I really didn't like the imaging it created.

Another option I've been thinking about, is to buy a nice center now, and replace the mains at a later time with a timbre matching pair when I have more cash to dedicate to the HT.

Any suggestions on a sub $400 sealed center which can be run directly off the Denon?

Good idea on calling NHT to ask them about the positioning. If the guy selling these NHTs still has them next week, I'll do that.

Thanks!
Thomas.

[gd]

A bunch of stuff you don't want to hear...

Lose the Entertainment Center – it is Your Single Biggest Obstacle To Good Sound... I know, it's built-in; lose it anyway, or try to find a way to position speakers out and in front of the EC... even sealed speakers are compromised in an EC, it's a cabinet inside another cabinet... as for that pesky $400 budget – there are a few speakers designed for EC compatibility (Aerial, Meridian), but at a way-high price... good speakers were just never intended to be used in these things... Entertainment Centers are where speakers go to die.

However... your immediate issue – muffled dialogue center – has been a recurring problem for many people for years, regardless of system configuration... and 9 times out of 10 you should be able to calibrate your way out of this, but it will take some trial and error – including a willingness to try several tilts and other repositioning of the center speaker... you may not need new speakers if you're otherwise content.

If you ultimately feel you need new speakers anyway, don't feel rushed to cash in on a 'deal'... deals come and go – lotsa great used speakers on http://www.audiogon.com ... figure out your other issues first... start with your room – sizewise, it sounds like it's medium-on-the-brink-of-large... small-profile speakers have limits when it comes to rich, room-filling sound... you might need to consider something bigger than tiny satellites.

I'll leave you with mild good news... NHT makes great speakers!... dunno if those older ones are sealed designs, even if the current models are (if their definition of "acoustic suspension" is the same as mine).

Did I mention lose the Entertainment Center?

[Stoopalini]

Unfortunately, removing the built-in is not an option. This pic should give you an idea of what I'm dealing with.



FYI: The couch is usually facing the TV, but we turned it 90* recently due to having the family Easter gathering over at the house.

We also have a 16mo old in the house, so I'd really like to stay away from towers. Having the speakers in the EC really help to keep her away from them.

Thanks for the advice on reducing the muffled sound. I've tried different placement, but haven't had much luck. Actually, removing the center's speaker cover has helped the most. I also have the shelf it is sitting on tilted higher in the back to aim the speaker down towards the listening position.

The Supoerone speaker is a sealed design, although I'm not sure about the Supercenter.

Thanks again guys,
Thomas.

[Chris D]

Thomas - you a pilot? I noticed the model. I see a Matroshki doll next to the TV, too.

I'm guessing that's a Salamander rack you've got the TV on. Fits in nice with the center!

[Stoopalini]

No, not a pilot, although sometimes I feel like one with all the travel! The model is a wooden B29 I picked up in Dubai a few years back, and my wife had the Matroshki doll when we married.

Salamander rack? No, it's actually a custom design I removed the foot from the Sharp stand, and cut the EC's molding to recess the TV back. Then I drilled 6 holes (3 for each foot) into the bottom shelf and bolted the legs of the stand through. The EC was originally built for a 36" tube TV, so I had to figure something out.

Thomas.

[gd]

Wow... and a vaulted ceiling... that is one difficult room for audio.

Given all your deciding factors, I'd focus on troubleshooting the center speaker... at least eliminate it as a source of the problem before rushing out to replace speakers.

Having re-read your post (pop/distort/pans), I think you should switch out existing speakers and cables to test if the center speaker is indeed distorting – or if it is rather a receiver problem... then consider replacing the center... maybe one model up in the BIC line, just to get a heftier delivery (I'm not familiar with that brand, btw).

One more thought... it might seem radical with the rigid EC, but is it possible to try raising the TV and place the center speaker below?... it would then be at the same height as the L/R fronts and would likely throw much better imaging, esp for your stated panning issue.

Good luck.

[John Holmes]

Thomas,

I figured from the begining, the EC had to be worked with . But, as gd and I pointed out, it is the root of your problems. Especially with the tv section extending so far out between the L/R speakers.

Thanks for posting the pic. It helps a lot. From it, it seems your speakers are flush or slightly recessed in the unit. If you could postion them to overlap the edge of the shelves and tv an inch or two, you should get a little better sound from them.

Also, your center needs to be aimed downward to your ear level. Ideally, all the speakers across the front should be at or around ear level. You may even try a little toe-in of the left and right. Though, with the middle section of the EC positioned as such, you may actually reflect more sound away from the listening area.

As gd stated, the majority of speakers on the market will not perform well in an EC. Your setup even adds to that because of the design of the center section. You'll just have to do the best that you can. You could also run your center channel level a db or two higher than the others speakers. While it won't be as "Dolby" accurate, it may help overcome some of the issues in the setup.

[Stoopalini]

Wow... and a vaulted ceiling... that is one difficult room for audio.

Ya, not to mention I took the pic standing in the kitchen; the whole back of the room is open to the kitchen and the foyer!

I've had these speakers for a while, but recently (within the year) upgraded the receiver from a Yami RX-V795 (now performing garage duty) to the Denon. The center issue was present with the Yami as well. I suppose it could be the cables? I haven't tried replaing the wires yet.

As for the fronts all being the same height, I did consider placing the center on the bottom, then lowering the shelf whcih the speaker is currently on all the way down and mounting the TV on it. I decided against it because the TV would then be mounted on a movable shelf (less rigid); and also would have made it more difficult to get the cut measurements just right so the TV's trim would hide the cut ends.

I suppose I could go through the Audyssey setup again, and then manually EQ the center a bit to compensate. Sure is much easier with this Denon then it was with the Yami (SPL meter and tape measure)!

In the end though, I would really like to replace the speakers. I originally bought the BICs as a temporary solution, knowing I would replace them down the road. I suppose my system has grown to the point where I'm ready to do it. Plus, by purchasing new front's, I'll be able to add on and finally have 7.1!

Thomas.

[Stoopalini]

The mains are currently hanging over the edge of the shelves by about 1". The depth of the EC's sections will not allow for the speakers to be pulled out farther than the TV. I could move the mains in to the next section in the EC, closer to the center? Another option, is to mount the mains on the rear wall, or corner load them; but I thought that would be no better (or maybe even worse) than my current setup.

I know the pic doesn't show it, but the center is actually aimed down towards the seating position, and it does seem to help a bit. Good idea on the center level. I actually have it about 4dB higher than the mains, and also boosed the upper mid range (1-3khz) a bit to try and clean up the dialogue. Every little bit seems to help somewhat, but the muddy dialogue is still present.

Thomas.

[John Holmes]

Well, it seems you've pretty much maxed the postion of the speakers. And yes, the wall or corners will probably not yield better results.

You seem set on getting new speakers. That's fine. However, in the end, your basic issues imo will be the same. As Scotty would say " you can't change the laws of physics". Keep us posted on how it goes.

[gd]

Scotty: "hull breach in 30 seconds"

Ya... the whole back of the room is open to the kitchen and the foyer!

Yipe... the hits just keep coming.

That room is - by definition - gigantic.

The fact that you mention it at all tells me you know what you're up against... and it seems you've re-re-recalibrated and are willing to try it once again... all I can suggest is to troubleshoot everything before spending money... and your quest of a sealed speaker is a logical one, though the EC will compromise things as noted.

I looked at the NHT center link... unless things have changed in the last decade, "acoustic suspension" describes a sealed box design... but I would confirm it with NHT anyway.

Heck, just build a false wall around the EC and install BIG in-walls... :twisted:

Happy hunting.

[John Holmes]

Scotty: "hull breach in 30 seconds"

Good one.

[Stoopalini]

I definitely understand this room is not desirable for great audio, but I'm just working with what I've got. The built in EC, vaulted ceiling, open rear wall, stone fireplace on side wall flanked by dual glass french doors and windows on other side all contribute to a horrible room to setup a theater system in! (ie: I'm givin' her all she's got, but she can't take much more!)

I suppose all of this should be my reasoning for building an addition strictly for a dedicated theater room

In the meantime though, I'd like to make what changes I can to improve the sound in the room. Obvisouly, we agree a sealed speaker setup would be better than these rear ported speakers, but what else can be done to help?

I know room treatments can help a lot, but not sure how to go about determining what to use and where to place them? Are there any good write-ups/white papers on acoustically treating a room? Do you basically follow the line-of-site of the driver and dampen the area?

Thomas.

[gd]

This oughta keep you busy...

http://tinyurl.com/26bx66

http://home.comcast.net/~thomasw-2/SubwooferSetupandEQpage9.html

http://www.sbrjournal.net/journalsite/archives/acoustics/Acoustics.htm

http://www.realtraps.com/

But again, room treatments may not necessarily be a miracle cure for that center dialogue issue... and it doesn't help that some movies' sound mixes are difficult under any circumstances... I still think re-calibrating is the best (and cheapest) approach, even if it ultimately minimizes rather than resolves this issue.

Also note the form factor on room treatments... I'm the last guy to consider room decor over acoustics, but even I think most traps & treatments are pretty ugly.

(I've done virtually no room correction, it should be noted... I've been lucky to maintain systems in relatively small, varied-surface rooms.)

Good luck.

[Stoopalini]

Great articles, thanks!

The 1st article is very informative, and also practical.

This sounds like my room, almost exactly! (except I have porcelain tile and a large area rug on the floor)

At the other extreme, a room with painted drywall on the walls, drywall or plaster on the ceiling, linoleum over concrete on the floor, and no sound absorbing drapes or rugs, would sound extremely bright, thin and echoey. And as we discussed, too many echoes can negatively affect movie dialogue, making it more difficult to understand.

Also, this chart shows I EQed the center in the wrong freq range:



The 2nd link has great info, but not very practical for my family room

Really enjoyed Link #3, and wish i had the equipment to take room measurements like that!

The real traps product seems interesting, although I can't see the wife agreeing to make our living room look like this: LOL!



We actually just started repainting the living room last night, and we're discussing putting up window treatments (some sort of curtains). So I think I will install coverings over the windows and both sets of french doors, then go through the Audyssey setup again, and if the dialogue is still muddy, will try EQing the center in the vocal range referenced above.

Thanks for the help guys, I'll let you know what happens (I still want new speakers though! : )

Thomas.

[John Holmes]

And the Scotty lines just keep flowing! :T

As a note, be sure your HVAC is off during calibration. Not sure if you thought of that or not. Just trying to cover all bases.

[Stoopalini]

....be sure your HVAC is off during calibration.

No, I hadn't thought of that, great tip!

Thomas.

[Stoopalini]

Well, yesterday I picked up 4 Superones and a Supercenter for a heck of a deal. the guy I got them from was nice enough to come down to $300 for all 5 (Sure made the WAF easier to deal with!) I went through the Denon's autosetup, and it sounds great! I do have to turn the volume up a bit higher to reach the same levels in the room, but I've read this is normal due to the NHT's lower effeciency rating.

We haven't watched a movie yet, but during normal TV watching, the dialogue is much clearer! I did pop in the Eagles -- Hell Freezes Over DTS disc yesterday, and wow, the sound is much more defined with the NHT's over the BICs. I'm sure this is in part to having 5 matched speakers, as I replaced the rear Sound Dynamic speakers as well.

Next question is where do I place the rear surround and back surround speakers? I'll start another thread on this, after I draw up a quick diagram of the room shape.

Thanks for the input guys, I know I still need to get some window treatments for the room, but for now, the speakers really made a nice improvement.

Thomas.

[John Holmes]

You got a damn good deal! Glad everything fell into place for you.