Differences between RCA Video and Audio Cables?

[riceaterslc]

I need to purchase RCA type cables for a SACD player. I was looking for cables for the easiest setup. I can get two 3-wire component video cables or three standard audio cables. what will the sound quality difference be between the two? these are the two sets of cables I am currently looking at. Thanks in advance :T

Links not needed here: Admins

[Alaric]

http://www.catcables.com/

[Kal Rubinson]

I need to purchase RCA type cables for a SACD player. I was looking for cables for the easiest setup. I can get two 3-wire component video cables or three standard audio cables.

RCA cables are audio cables. The video set would probably be fine, too.

Kal

[Lex]

If you are going to buy cheap cables, why not support our sponsor Parts Express? They have budget offerings.

video cables have foil shielding, yes they work for audio, no they are not optimized for audio. Audio only cables do not have foil shielding, rather have wire mesh shielding only. They just sound better this way.

at 20 bucks a set of 6 cables though, or 2 bucks a pair who freakin cares... you get what you pay for, no doubt. honestly. Fact is, at these prices they are probably all made out of the same old wire anyway, nothing special about it... They are little more than what is included with components when you buy them, if anything.

Click on Parts Express banner in top left, then input:

DAYTON RCAV-3 RCA AUDIO/VIDEO CABLE 3'

Into the search window. Like 13 bucks for a 3 cable 3 feet set, so you can get 6 cable connections for 26.00. Dayton makes pretty good stuff.

Doug

[riceaterslc]

thanks for the replies,

Alaric: i would love to have some catcables but a) i honestly doubt i could tell the difference and b) george bush need to give me a raise before i can afford them

Lex: thanks for the explanation. i wouldn't call monoprice "cheap" rather "inexpensive" i use one of their 50' DVI-D cables which actually performed better than my 25' bluejeans cable which cost more, so its hard for me to buy into the hype of good cables unless i am spending hundress of dollars which i (read: my wife refuses to let me do) cannot justify.

[Alaric]

Sorry , rice. The CAT Cables thing is kind of a knee-jerk reaction for me. I appreciate the cost aspect-I'm trying to figure out the purchase of my next set now! I will say I heard a difference , and major improvements in equipment are waaayyy down the road for me-so I treated myself to very good cables so I don't have to upgrade when I win the lottery. :rofl:

[riceaterslc]

Sorry , rice. The CAT Cables thing is kind of a knee-jerk reaction for me. I treated myself to very good cables so I don't have to upgrade when I win the lottery. :rofl:

no worries alaric :T good luck with that lottery thing, i buy a ticket every time it goes over 100 million but the odds just seems against me :B

[Alaric]

Yeah , I don't even buy the tickets anymore. I can not win and save the dollar! I bought a cheap amp , good CD player , and moderate speakers (though I love 'em). The only "high-end" stuff I own is the cables!!!

[bigburner]

If you are going to buy cheap cables, why not support our sponsor Parts Express? They have budget offerings.

video cables have foil shielding, yes they work for audio, no they are not optimized for audio. Audio only cables do not have foil shielding, rather have wire mesh shielding only. They just sound better this way.

at 20 bucks a set of 6 cables though, or 2 bucks a pair who freakin cares... you get what you pay for, no doubt. honestly. Fact is, at these prices they are probably all made out of the same old wire anyway, nothing special about it... They are little more than what is included with components when you buy them, if anything.

Click on Parts Express banner in top left, then input:

DAYTON RCAV-3 RCA AUDIO/VIDEO CABLE 3'

Into the search window. Like 13 bucks for a 3 cable 3 feet set, so you can get 6 cable connections for 26.00. Dayton makes pretty good stuff.

Doug

Hi Doug,

If you have the time I'm sure that a lot of the members here (including myself) would appreciate some education about interconnects. For example:

* What are the differences between analogue and digital coax cables? Are they both 75 ohm? How does the internal construction differ? Can you successfully use a digital coax cable for an analogue connection? If not, why not? What about the other way around?

* Why do some cables need shielding? When don't they need shielding? Why do some cables have double shielding?

* What's the difference (if any) between a subwoofer cable and a regular analogue cable?

* What's the difference between video cables and audio cables (analogue and digital)? When can they be interchanged and when can't they be interchanged?

* Is the gauge of the cable important? Is this related to the length of the cable?

* Are there some connections between pieces of equipment that you think are more important than others, i.e. are there connections where a buyer should spend more on cables if their budget is limited?

* What is the cooking process and why is this important?

* In the CAT Cables product set are there any particular cables that you recommend for specific applications? Conversely are there any cables that aren't well suited for some applications?

A bit more education might get the hit rate up on the CAT Cables web site, which may even lead to more business!

Many thanks,
Nigel.

[bigburner]

Doug, ve have vays of mecking you talk

Hi Doug,

If you have the time I'm sure that a lot of the members here (including myself) would appreciate some education about interconnects. For example:

* What are the differences between analogue and digital coax cables? Are they both 75 ohm? How does the internal construction differ? Can you successfully use a digital coax cable for an analogue connection? If not, why not? What about the other way around?

* Why do some cables need shielding? When don't they need shielding? Why do some cables have double shielding?

* What's the difference (if any) between a subwoofer cable and a regular analogue cable?

* What's the difference between video cables and audio cables (analogue and digital)? When can they be interchanged and when can't they be interchanged?

* Is the gauge of the cable important? Is this related to the length of the cable?

* Are there some connections between pieces of equipment that you think are more important than others, i.e. are there connections where a buyer should spend more on cables if their budget is limited?

* What is the cooking process and why is this important?

* In the CAT Cables product set are there any particular cables that you recommend for specific applications? Conversely are there any cables that aren't well suited for some applications?

A bit more education might get the hit rate up on the CAT Cables web site, which may even lead to more business!

Many thanks,
Nigel.

Tell us everysing.

[Sdiver2489]

I can answer some of your questions with a good amount of detail

Hi Doug,

If you have the time I'm sure that a lot of the members here (including myself) would appreciate some education about interconnects. For example:

* What are the differences between analogue and digital coax cables? Are they both 75 ohm? How does the internal construction differ? Can you successfully use a digital coax cable for an analogue connection? If not, why not? What about the other way around?

Analog video cables and Digital coax cables are usually all 75 ohm cables. Analog audio cables are typically 50 ohm. At higher frequencies, reflections caused by impedence mismatches could seriously negatively effect the signal received from the source. Because of this 50 ohm cables should not be used for video. It is generally accepted that video cables can be used for audio purposes as the reflections caused by the impedance mismatch will not greatly effect low frequency audio signals.

* Why do some cables need shielding? When don't they need shielding? Why do some cables have double shielding?

Cables need shielding when interference can negatively effect the carried signal in a serious way. Video and audio signals in RCA cables are low voltage and therefore a small amount of noise can result in a large corruption of the audio or video. This is why there is so much noise in analog broadcasts. There is a very low voltage signal being picked up by the antenna(noise is already present due to transmission) and any noise added along the way are clearly visible in the picture.

Speaker cables are generally not shielded as they are an amplified signal. The signal carried is high enough in voltage that the signal to noise ratio will be high even with some noise induced. I could be wrong on this point but I believe the parallel transmission line configuration also lends itself to noise rejection

* What's the difference (if any) between a subwoofer cable and a regular analogue cable?

Occasionally a subwoofer cable can be "directional" which means that only one end of the shield is connected. This generally has no effect on the signal and any analog or video cable can be used as a sub cable with no change from a "subwoofer cable"

* What's the difference between video cables and audio cables (analogue and digital)? When can they be interchanged and when can't they be interchanged?

As mentioned before analog audio cables are 50 ohm. Digital audio cables(digital coax) are the same as 75 ohm video cables. The shielding on digital cables is less critical as a digital source would have to have a 1 or 0 induced in order to affect the output. This is different from a analog source where any noise induced will be present at the output. Toslink digital cables are unaffected by noise as the signal is transmitted via light and light cannot be induced by noise sources. In general video cables can be used as audio cables but the opposite should be avoided.

* Is the gauge of the cable important? Is this related to the length of the cable?

Gause of coax cable directly affects its bandwidth. The larger the gauge the more bandwidth it is capable of transmitting. This is useful for digital sources which require a large bandwidth to avoid detrimental effects to the carried signal.

Speaker cable gauge directly affects the resistance of the cable. The higher the gauge the more resistance will be present. With a 4 or 8 ohm nominal load, a small amount of resistance present in the cable can result in an inaccurate voltage measured at the speaker. As such it is always recommended to use a fairly large gauge wire(16 or so) for short to medium length runs and even 12 gauge or higher for long runs of cable.

* Are there some connections between pieces of equipment that you think are more important than others, i.e. are there connections where a buyer should spend more on cables if their budget is limited?

Digital connections should theoretically cost the least. Do not be afraid to buy a $8 HDMI cable. Provided that it has SOME shielding(which most do) there is little worry about noise presenting itself in these cables. The same goes for digital coax, DVI and Toslink(some claim to hear a difference between glass and plastic fibers...I doubt those claims)

* What is the cooking process and why is this important?

I assume you are talking about cable "burners"....in which case you are diving into the world of the bad type of audiophiles where physics no longer matters. In short...I don't believe these products claims or their customer's testaments.

* In the CAT Cables product set are there any particular cables that you recommend for specific applications? Conversely are there any cables that aren't well suited for some applications?

A bit more education might get the hit rate up on the CAT Cables web site, which may even lead to more business!

Many thanks,
Nigel.

I have never used CAT cables so I cannot provide feedback on them. I would caution you to avoid "boutique" cables which have very high markups and often rediculous claims. I have not looked into CAT cables so I will not claim they fit this catagory.

EDIT: I looked into their offerings and I must say I would caution anyone that doesn't have an unlimited budget from buying their cables. I will likely get kicked off this site for saying these things but a .5m cable for 170 dollars is rediculous. Plus advertising use of a cable cooker and silver solder is also an attempt to justify the cost. Cables cookers...well...like I said before...there is little in physics which support audible/visual positive effects. In addition silver solder is fairly cheap. Silver does have a lower resistance per unit length than copper...however the differences are fairly minor and would not be discernable in a A/B blind test.

But if you don't believe me, do your own blind test. I don't see any return policy on their site based on "not seeing results" so I would not buy ALL the cables initially. Have someone switch the two cables without your own observation and guess which cable is connected each time. See if you beat a 50/50 average after say...10 switches.

I won't argue that their cables appear, as all boutique cables are, to be very finely constructed. I would bet their cables would never break. Then again, I have never had a $7 cable break and even if it did...it would still only be $7 more dollars to replace :-p

Good luck.

[bigburner]

Thanks Sdiver2489. Interconnects are such a controversial subject. Opinions as to their importance vary dramatically. I've tended to lean towards believing that solid construction, shielding and good connections are all that's required, but perhaps there is more to it than that, hence my post. I was hoping that Doug would put forward some good technical reasons why quality interconnects such as CAT Cables - and using the correct CAT cable - pay off in terms of improved sound quality. I'm aware from Doug's posts that CAT Cables are going through a difficult period and I thought that sales might improve if HTG members have a better appreciation of why quality interconnects - and using the right interconnect for the right job - make a positive difference.

Nigel.

[riceaterslc]

SDiver, great informative post!

[Alaric]

Bought the Silvercats , with a great "try 'em" policy. They sounded better than what I had so I kept them and will buy more. Don't know about the technology behind cable "cooking" , I do know silver is a far better conductor of electricity than most metals , and expensive. My amp can tend towards a dark sound and the Silvercats really cleaned up the detail. Did I try a bunch of cables? No. I found an improvement over what I had and am satisfied. I've heard a few cables in and above Doug's price range and have no difficulty recommending CAT Cables. My $.02

[Lex]

Nigel, right now, I am on vacation, so I don't have time to devote to this at present...

I figure if sales are low now, it's as good a time as any to lay low and enjoy a few days off. Yeah, if someone orders, I'll crank up production, but my normal at the forum will be not so normal at present.

Thanks Lee for your support.

Riceatersic, statistics say here at HTGuide, that buying CAT Cables is not buying into the hype of high end cables. It's achieving high end cable performance at a budget that does not sink a battleship. Our silver cables for example are some of the best overachievers money can buy, and offer excellent detail and clarity, that you will not achieve with most of these so called "hype cables" you speak of.

CAT offers the real deal. Added performance and value at a fair price.

[riceaterslc]

This is getting kind of off topic but..

i have no doubt in the quality of products CAT cables produces. for me however i do not think i could tell the difference between cables that are inexpensive and the ones you provide. this is based off a few things:
1) equipment. i run entry level separates and speakers that are roughly 10 years old.
2) experience. even though i have been listening to music on decent (relative to my parents income) equipment my whole life, i am by no means and audiophile.
3) income. if i were to notice a difference with using high quality cables, i would need some sort of justification for spending 50x the price of what i paid for another cable. there are more important things in life that i need to save for, like my children's education and my retirement.

when i'm 60 and have collected all that compounding interest for the past 35 years, i'll splurge a little and get some CAT cables

[Alaric]

In short...don't believe these products claims or their customer's testaments.

Also , I'd be willing to bet that if your CAT Cables break you wouldn't even be out $7. I believe Doug stands behind his product.
Can we get some CAT customers to speak up?

[Lex]

Ricey. (it would be nice to have an easier name to call you!)

I don't get the feeling your a CAT customer at this time, looking at 6.00 cables. I'd as soon tie fishing flies for a living than sell AV cables for 6 bucks, lol. So, buy something that carries a signal, and let the rest go.

I frequently assist customers Lee. Most things are situational. It's a 90 day warranty on parts and labor, but typically we don't do the shipping thing except back to the customer on our nickel. It is the customer's resposibility to get product back to us is all. We do handle our half on warranty repair though.

Doug

[Sdiver2489]

Also , I'd be willing to bet that if your CAT Cables break you wouldn't even be out $7. I believe Doug stands behind his product.
Can we get some CAT customers to speak up?

looks like I was correct actually

[Alaric]

looks like I was correct actually

Oooohhhhh...You the man.

In short...don't believe these products claims or their customer's testaments.

And now that you've lit my fuse , I don't appreciate my honesty or integrity being questioned. I also don't believe I paid more than $7 shipping. I can't speak for Doug , and I won't try. I can speak for myself-and myself thinks you spend too much time reading spec sheets and not enough testing cables. :F

[Sdiver2489]

Oooohhhhh...You the man.



And now that you've lit my fuse , I don't appreciate my honesty or integrity being questioned. I also don't believe I paid more than $7 shipping. I can't speak for Doug , and I won't try. I can speak for myself-and myself thinks you spend too much time reading spec sheets and not enough testing cables. :F

Wow...

Forgive me for believing science over advertising

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrical_resistivity

Resistance of wire is a function of the resistivity, length and cross sectional area. Lets calculate the difference in resistance between copper and silver.

RG6 cable which is commonly used in video cables has a wire diameter of 1.0237 mm.

(1.0237 mm/1000)^2 = 1.048*10^-6 m^2

Silver:

R = (2m * 1.47 × 10^−8) / (1.048*10^-6 m^2)
R = 0.028 ohms

Copper:

R = (2m * 1.72 × 10^−8) / (1.048*10^-6 m^2)
R = 0.032 ohms

I sure hope that .004 ohms of resistance makes a $130 difference

I won't even get into advertising the benefits of a cable cooker...

Also, Catcables advertises use of "Pure Teflon Dielectic" in their optical cables...last I checked dielectric material does not affect light. Why advertise a "feature" that has no purpose?

I won't argue that the cables look very nicely constructed. However, if they are perfectly constructed why not offer a longer warranty? I would say most cables would make it 90 days without breaking. I'll leave you to your opinion.

[Kal Rubinson]

Also, Catcables advertises use of "Pure Teflon Dielectic" in their optical cables...last I checked dielectric material does not affect light. Why advertise a "feature" that has no purpose?

Makes them dish-washer safe. :W

[dyazdani]

First, in principle, I don't believe in someone crapping on what someone else chooses to purchase with his/her own money. If you don't want to buy CAT Cables (or any other cable) then don't.

Second, take a look at boutique cable prices - ~$200 for a high quality silver IC isn't too bad. If you want to be objective about it, make a list.

I sure hope that .004 ohms of resistance makes a $130 difference

Sure, 0.004 Ohms doesn't sound like much, but it's 12.5% less than copper. Silver costs more than copper so no surprise the cable is more. If you don't think it's worth it then don't buy it. Some people have actually tried them and believe that the silver has had a positive effect on the tonal quality of their system.

If we all had the time or knowledge, we'd build our own cables and try to get specs we thought gave the best performance. Since most of us don't have the time or maybe don't care to take the time, we're trying to find some decent cable and still have enough $$ left over to eat.

[Lex]

Sdiver, who the heck cares if you were correct? I'm just a small company, I can't do it all and hold my margins down in the cellar. We've absorbed cost increases on materials, on connectors, shipping increases, you name it, so I really don't need my balls busted by you on this. So, lay off my customers and lay off me too or we are headed for a showdown you cannot win for sure. I'll remind you now that you are my guest here at HTGuide.

I could warranty them from now on I guess, I could, but in 6 years, I've had few cables come up for repair. So, in general, if a cable lasts 90 days, it's gonna last a long long time unless it's ABUSED. The 90 day clause gets us out of abuse repairs, plain and simple. If it's something simple that was my fault, I fix those things. My customers and I have a relationship that goes far beyond what you are used to with Best Buy. Until you are one of my customers, you will not know or understand this.

My fuse is short right now anyway, don't light it.

Kal, as funny as your dishwasher statement is, if that statement was on the optical page, it was a pure oversight being carried over from another page. The optical has glass, no teflon. I'll run one though the next cycle to see though!

Forum Owner
CATCables Owner

[Kal Rubinson]

Kal, as funny as your dishwasher statement is, if that statement was on the optical page, it was a pure oversight being carried over from another page. The optical has glass, no teflon. I'll run one though the next cycle to see though!

It was meant only in jest and in response to the previous post.

Kal

[Sdiver2489]

Sdiver, who the heck cares if you were correct? I'm just a small company, I can't do it all and hold my margins down in the cellar. We've absorbed cost increases on materials, on connectors, shipping increases, you name it, so I really don't need my balls busted by you on this. So, lay off my customers and lay off me too or we are headed for a showdown you cannot win for sure. I'll remind you now that you are my guest here at HTGuide.

I could warranty them from now on I guess, I could, but in 6 years, I've had few cables come up for repair. So, in general, if a cable lasts 90 days, it's gonna last a long long time unless it's ABUSED. The 90 day clause gets us out of abuse repairs, plain and simple. If it's something simple that was my fault, I fix those things. My customers and I have a relationship that goes far beyond what you are used to with Best Buy. Until you are one of my customers, you will not know or understand this.

My fuse is short right now anyway, don't light it.

Kal, as funny as your dishwasher statement is, if that statement was on the optical page, it was a pure oversight being carried over from another page. The optical has glass, no teflon. I'll run one though the next cycle to see though!

Forum Owner
CATCables Owner

All I said was in my own opinion which is in general what is exchanged on forums. If you will also notice, I suggested people that don't believe my opinion to go and buy your cables and try them. If they like them, then good. I gave my general opinion about boutique cables and brought up some of my issues with the advertising behind them.

That's all.

[wkhanna]

Can we get some CAT customers to speak up?

My hobby budget is very tight, like many others here, and more that $30 for one cable is a lot for me. But I have been building/upgrading my system for years, and it has reached a point that probably 90% of the average ‘man on the street’ people would not recognize the brand name of any components I now own. I would call it slightly above average, and say that it can be revealing to slight changes in components and, yes, cables.

Actually, many of the components were purchased used, but I don’t put run-of-the-mill recaps on my ‘83 Porsche 944, just cuz it’s used. Oh, they might be fine for 80% of the time, but when I want to extract the last bit of performance from it, the difference would negate the purpose of the car’s design and limit its ultimate performance.

So I bought some Cat Cables feeling that they were a viable addition for extracting the ultimate performance from my components. Relative to the cost/performance of my system, the cost of Cat Cables seems very reasonable to me. I think spending 15 to 20% of your systems value on cables is a safe and practical policy.

As far as the Cat Cables, the wife asked, out of blue and not knowing if or when I had changed anything, if I got a new piece of equipment. Nuf said.

[Alaric]

Forgive me for believing science over advertising

You are perfectly entitled to believe anything you wish. My commentary concerning CAT Cables wasn't an advertisement. It was my experience with the product. I don't work for Doug and I don't get a discount because I stepped up to the plate when my intelligence and hearing was questioned.

As for the aforementioned science , I could build an IC of cotton thread and as long as I keep it wet it will conduct electricity with very minimal resistance. You can prove that on paper-what do you think it will sound like? I have some uncles that are engineers , and they can draw the prettiest pictures you ever saw.Turning those pictures into functioning reality always falls to us in the field , and frequently those pictures bear no resemblance to the end product . Spec sheets are a nice starting point , but the game is played on the field. If you can find two speakers with identical specs (from different manufacturers) , will they sound the same? If the crossover specs are the same and use the same drivers my TI calculator can prove they sound the same. :W
I'm quite sure I overreacted initially , but I counted 20+ positive responses to the CAT surveys concerning ICs only , and checking the Who's Online has shown this thread garners it's share of observers. I guess I just expected a little more support for a forum sponsor (owner ) who also provides a great audio product- as well as being a friend to almost all. Okay , I'll get off the soapbox. I don't like high places anyway. :W
I do like dancenanas! :dancenana: :dancenana: :dancenana:

[Sdiver2489]

You are perfectly entitled to believe anything you wish. My commentary concerning CAT Cables wasn't an advertisement. It was my experience with the product. I don't work for Doug and I don't get a discount because I stepped up to the plate when my intelligence and hearing was questioned.

As for the aforementioned science , I could build an IC of cotton thread and as long as I keep it wet it will conduct electricity with very minimal resistance. You can prove that on paper-what do you think it will sound like? I have some uncles that are engineers , and they can draw the prettiest pictures you ever saw.Turning those pictures into functioning reality always falls to us in the field , and frequently those pictures bear no resemblance to the end product . Spec sheets are a nice starting point , but the game is played on the field. If you can find two speakers with identical specs (from different manufacturers) , will they sound the same? If the crossover specs are the same and use the same drivers my TI calculator can prove they sound the same. :W
I'm quite sure I overreacted initially , but I counted 20+ positive responses to the CAT surveys concerning ICs only , and checking the Who's Online has shown this thread garners it's share of observers. I guess I just expected a little more support for a forum sponsor (owner ) who also provides a great audio product- as well as being a friend to almost all. Okay , I'll get off the soapbox. I don't like high places anyway. :W
I do like dancenanas! :dancenana: :dancenana: :dancenana:

I appreciate what he provides here for the sake of audio discussion. I really do.

In fact, I didn't even know he was the owner of this forum.

However, I will still give my opinion to people to generally avoid spending their money on higher priced cables. It's just too easy to spend too much money in my opinion when it could go elsewhere for a larger gain. I am not on a mission to end all boutique cabling companies. Just if someone asks questions about cables and when they can and can not be switched(and when shielding is needed) I will give my opinion from both my experience and my education. That's all.

Like I said before, if people want to give CATcables or any other cables a try, go for it. We're all entitled to our opinions. :T

[Kevin D]

Like I said before, if people want to give CATcables or any other cables a try, go for it. We're all entitled to our opinions. :T

It's when you pretty much say our own opinions are crap,

In short...don't believe these products claims or their customer's testaments.

that we have an issue.

Kevin D.

[Sdiver2489]

It's when you pretty much say our own opinions are crap,



that we have an issue.

Kevin D.

Ok...then have issues with me. :huh:

I have already pointed our my issues with the advertising behind the products and, in my experience, the mental game played when swapping to "high quality cables" interfere too much in the process of evaluating for real sound quality changes. But that's just me.

I made a rather extensive post about the details of the basics of cables and what is needed for different connections. You choose to ignore all the help I was trying to provide and pick one sentence where I should have said "In short, I wouldn't believe the advertising or customer testaments". Which, previously to this post, I have already changed my post to reflect.

Just reply quoting my post and tell the OP to ignore my attempt at help. Won't bother me that you don't agree with me.

[Alaric]

Terms like "boutique cabling companies" tend to sound condescending , and tone of voice doesn't convey well in posts. I've been guilty of the same thing before so I shouldn't have taken it personally , but please try to understand comments like 'don't believe their customers' comes across as calling someone a liar. I notice you continue to stick with that assertion. You have to expect people to unload when you insinuate they are dishonest or stupid. My $.02