Martin Logan Clarity or B&W XT4

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  • SanJose-Ty
    Junior Member
    • Jan 2006
    • 3

    Martin Logan Clarity or B&W XT4

    I'm looking to buy a set of speakers to replace the old Bose AM10 that we had. At any rate, my wife prefers a specific look and she has pre-approved the B&W. It's my choice to select which ones. I've heard the B&W 604, 703, 704, XT4, ML Clarity and Aeon i. Frankly, I can't really tell the difference with the exception that they all sound better than my Bose. Must be the busted eardrums from scuba-diving

    Anyway, here's what I'm considering:

    Set 1: B&W XT4 LR, XTC
    Set 2: ML Clarity LR, Fresco C
    Set 3: B&W 703 LR (used), HTM7 C (used)
    Set 4: ML Aeon i LR (used), Fresco C

    These 4 options all have similar cost so it's not a factor. My concern is buying used ML. Anyone has bad experience with used ML? Will I still be covered by the warranty if I buy used sets?

    I would love to get the ML Theater Center but it's definitely more $$$. I'm thinking about going cheap for the rears (Mythos Gems) since we mainly watch movies.

    I'm not sure about the sub yet. Will pick one later. If I go the ML route, may pick up the Grotto. For receiver, I'm looking at Denon 3806, Pioneer 74txvi or similar.
  • Kevin P
    Member
    • Aug 2000
    • 10809

    #2
    It's not your eardrums, Ty. Any of those speakers will blow the Bose away.

    Martin Logan has an owner transfer form on their website, so I presume this means their warranty is transferrable. AFAIK they will take care of you, and can get parts for even their older discontinued speakers.

    I'd say go with what sounds and looks best to you.

    I'm not all that familiar with B&Ws but MLs need good amps to drive them effectively. They have wild impedance swings; my SL3s are nominal 4 ohms but can drop down to 1.5 ohms at higher frequencies.

    Comment

    • Karma
      Senior Member
      • Nov 2005
      • 801

      #3
      HI Ty (hey, that rhymes),
      As was said, watch out for the amps with ML's. In fact, watch out for the entire electronics chain. ML's are so good that they will show any wart in the system. This is good.

      I have ML full range electrostatics and the experience of getting them to sound right. Don't buy ML's unless you are prepared to buy excellent (expensive) amplifiers. AV receivers are not an option. The up side is they will repay you with unbelievable sound. But you have to do it right and not cut corners.

      Because the electrostatic panels are so fast, integrating them with conventional speakers is an exercise in frustration. Buy the ML center speaker. I also think the Grotto will save you from hours of frustration. You will finally get it anyway so why not start with it? The surrounds are not as important. You might be able to get away with conventional speakers.

      I would call ML and get their advice. They are good folks. While you are talking to them you might mention that they should reinstate the CLS's. If you go this route you will be on your way to a world class system.

      Sparky

      Comment

      • Joey_V
        Senior Member
        • Jul 2005
        • 436

        #4
        Yup... I got the ML Vantage electrostats and I compared them against their contemporaries (in price). Against the VW 803S/804S/803D, Von Schweikert VR4jr, JMLabs 918Be, and many more... yet I still chose it.

        Once you go electrostats, you dont go back... you just go higher on the ladder. Hehehe..

        But seriously, I would go with the Clarity (mains), Vignettes (surrounds), and Fresco (center). If you can spring for a nice 2 channel amp (just for the Clarity) and use the preouts off a receiver (the receiver powers the rest of the Frescos/Vignettes)... you should be done.

        I vote Clarity, but the 703 aint bad at all.
        Analog: VPI Scoutmaster w/ Steel Delrin clamp + Dynavector 20XH cart
        Digital: SB3 + PS Audio Digital Link III DAC
        System: Cary Audio SLP-98P Tube Preamplifier w/ Sylvanias -> Plinius SA102 Class A amplifier -> Martin Logan SUMMITS/Strata Minis -> 8O (me)

        Comment

        • SanJose-Ty
          Junior Member
          • Jan 2006
          • 3

          #5
          The local dealer is recommending the following set:

          Clarity LR
          Cinema i C
          Depth sub

          Since I will mostly use them in an HT environment, I can see the benefit of a better center speaker. However, is the Depth sub a little too much? Is Grotto good enough?

          I heard your advice. I'll get a good amp (Rotel ???) and use my current Sony STR-DB940 as the Pre/Pro and get a better one later. BTW, the local dealer is saying the Denon 3806 is good enough. I believe he's just trying to push his sale total.

          Comment

          • Joey_V
            Senior Member
            • Jul 2005
            • 436

            #6
            The dealer is an idiot. He is trying to push his sale, like you said.

            Clarity + Depth + Fresco should be good... the Cinema is an underperformer for the price... the Fresco will suit better IMO. I would get the Vignettes for surround unless you can afford more Frescos.

            The Rotel will power them no doubt. With the clarities at the helm, you'll be listening to your music collection all over again (in stereo).
            Analog: VPI Scoutmaster w/ Steel Delrin clamp + Dynavector 20XH cart
            Digital: SB3 + PS Audio Digital Link III DAC
            System: Cary Audio SLP-98P Tube Preamplifier w/ Sylvanias -> Plinius SA102 Class A amplifier -> Martin Logan SUMMITS/Strata Minis -> 8O (me)

            Comment

            • Karma
              Senior Member
              • Nov 2005
              • 801

              #7
              HI Ty,
              Rotel is a place to start but I think you are wasting your money. You need to be in the Krell, Classe, Levinson, Rowland class equipment.

              Listen carefully: you are considering a throughbred race horse. If you don't take them seriously or can't afford to put the right kind of electroncs on them, go to another speaker brand. Rotel will sound grainy and you will soon be looking for another amp. No kidding!

              I agree. Your dealer is an idiot. I would go elsewhere. He is not being honest. He is not looking out for your interests. He is trying to be price balanced. That is not going to work with ML.

              I have a Denon 3805. It is a good AV receiver with decent sound. Use it for your surrround channels and its preamp. I bought Krell for my L. R, and Center speakers after listening to and rejecting Rotel. I am using B&W 805S speakers in the front. They are good but nowhere as demanding as electrostatics.

              Call ML. Have you done that yet? Do it!!!! Report back and tell us what they said.

              Sparky

              Comment

              • SanJose-Ty
                Junior Member
                • Jan 2006
                • 3

                #8
                I just call ML. The rep said either Cinema i or Fresco will match with the Clarity, although Cineman i is better. Grotto is fine too. He also recommend the Fresco for the rears, although Vignette is good also.

                There's a deal for used Cinema i at the same price as the new Fresco. Should I get it or buy the Fresco new? My wife likes the look of the Cinema i. It's probably the deciding factor here .

                I'll get the Grotto for now. I can always upgrade to Depth later. I'll hold off on the surrounds for now.

                Comment

                • Joey_V
                  Senior Member
                  • Jul 2005
                  • 436

                  #9
                  Originally posted by Karma
                  HI Ty,
                  Rotel is a place to start but I think you are wasting your money. You need to be in the Krell, Classe, Levinson, Rowland class equipment.
                  Sparky
                  Sparky,

                  You're suggesting amps that are far beyond his budget... besides, he is getting Claritys and not the Summits. There is a large difference and there is no point in powering them with a Krell multichannel amp that will cost more than or equal to his entire system.

                  If he was getting a full Summit/Vantage HT set, then I would agree with you.. but come on now.

                  Anyway, for the same price, get the Cinema.

                  Joey
                  Analog: VPI Scoutmaster w/ Steel Delrin clamp + Dynavector 20XH cart
                  Digital: SB3 + PS Audio Digital Link III DAC
                  System: Cary Audio SLP-98P Tube Preamplifier w/ Sylvanias -> Plinius SA102 Class A amplifier -> Martin Logan SUMMITS/Strata Minis -> 8O (me)

                  Comment

                  • DrJRapp
                    Super Senior Member
                    • Apr 2003
                    • 1204

                    #10
                    Originally posted by Joey_V
                    Yup... I got the ML Vantage electrostats and I compared them against their contemporaries (in price). Against the VW 803S/804S/803D, Von Schweikert VR4jr, JMLabs 918Be, and many more... yet I still chose it.

                    Once you go electrostats, you dont go back... you just go higher on the ladder. Hehehe..

                    But seriously, I would go with the Clarity (mains), Vignettes (surrounds), and Fresco (center). If you can spring for a nice 2 channel amp (just for the Clarity) and use the preouts off a receiver (the receiver powers the rest of the Frescos/Vignettes)... you should be done.

                    I vote Clarity, but the 703 aint bad at all.
                    I fully agree that once you go to ESL it's hard to ever go back. Years ago I had some Infinity's with electrostatic mids and tweets and have tried to duplicate the haunting airiness of that sound for years. Most recently I returned to electrostatics by purchasing ML Summits. I also own B&W XT4s and must say that the upper mid and high frequencies sound very congested IMHO.

                    I also need to agree with the need for quality electronics. All the MLs are so revealing of upstream electronics that the ultimate sound gets determined by the sound of your electronics. I also think that Rotel may come up a bit short.
                    Jerry Rappaport

                    Comment

                    • Joey_V
                      Senior Member
                      • Jul 2005
                      • 436

                      #11
                      Doc,

                      I agree that one needs better electronics.... but not to the point where the Krell amp is more expensive than several pairs of the Clarities that the OP was inquiring about. Moderation is key. Of course, even a pair of cheap $200 bookshelves sound better with better amplification - case in point, I hooked up my $1200+ Rotel gear to my brother's Klipsch B2 set (that he uses on his computer) and we immediately noticed a change for the better.

                      So, OP is going for Clarities... there is no need to overly spend on the amp unless the OP wants to.
                      Analog: VPI Scoutmaster w/ Steel Delrin clamp + Dynavector 20XH cart
                      Digital: SB3 + PS Audio Digital Link III DAC
                      System: Cary Audio SLP-98P Tube Preamplifier w/ Sylvanias -> Plinius SA102 Class A amplifier -> Martin Logan SUMMITS/Strata Minis -> 8O (me)

                      Comment

                      • DrJRapp
                        Super Senior Member
                        • Apr 2003
                        • 1204

                        #12
                        I'm just making the point that he will want to. Buying my MLs made me painfully aware of how inadequite in detail and clarity my Rotel amps are. One can actually hear the fuzziness around musical notes. That is how revealing the MLs can be. With a little research in the used market one can find some really good deals on outstanding amps. For example I found a deal on eBay on a brand new Aragon 3005 with warrantee for $1600. With the 4 ohm Summits the 3005 puts out 500 glorious clean clear wpc.
                        Jerry Rappaport

                        Comment

                        • Joey_V
                          Senior Member
                          • Jul 2005
                          • 436

                          #13
                          Doc,

                          What would you recommend in the $1500 range for my Vantage? I am looking at the Rotel RB1090 to complete the set.... what do you think?

                          Joey
                          Analog: VPI Scoutmaster w/ Steel Delrin clamp + Dynavector 20XH cart
                          Digital: SB3 + PS Audio Digital Link III DAC
                          System: Cary Audio SLP-98P Tube Preamplifier w/ Sylvanias -> Plinius SA102 Class A amplifier -> Martin Logan SUMMITS/Strata Minis -> 8O (me)

                          Comment

                          • DrJRapp
                            Super Senior Member
                            • Apr 2003
                            • 1204

                            #14
                            The RB 1090 is probably a decent choice as would be any of the better used amps out there such as Classe or Krell or Anthem Statement. Or pehaps you can be luckey enough to get one of the few remaining Aragon's.
                            Jerry Rappaport

                            Comment

                            • Joey_V
                              Senior Member
                              • Jul 2005
                              • 436

                              #15
                              Originally posted by DrJRapp
                              The RB 1090 is probably a decent choice as would be any of the better used amps out there such as Classe or Krell or Anthem Statement. Or pehaps you can be luckey enough to get one of the few remaining Aragon's.
                              Doc,

                              You think an RB1090 would outperform the Krell Integrated 400ix?
                              Analog: VPI Scoutmaster w/ Steel Delrin clamp + Dynavector 20XH cart
                              Digital: SB3 + PS Audio Digital Link III DAC
                              System: Cary Audio SLP-98P Tube Preamplifier w/ Sylvanias -> Plinius SA102 Class A amplifier -> Martin Logan SUMMITS/Strata Minis -> 8O (me)

                              Comment

                              • DrJRapp
                                Super Senior Member
                                • Apr 2003
                                • 1204

                                #16
                                No, I don't. That also depends on what your sorce and preamp are. Example, if you use a DVD player as a sorce and a mid line receiver as a pre then they become the limits of the system capabilities.

                                With all ML speakers the detail is such that they will reveal the defficiencies of every upstream component, and the deficiencies in the original recording. Any system is only as good as it's weakest link.
                                Jerry Rappaport

                                Comment

                                • Chris D
                                  Moderator Emeritus
                                  • Dec 2000
                                  • 16877

                                  #17
                                  Hear, hear, doc. (no pun intended) More and more I'm finding that original recordings are the weakest link for me.
                                  CHRIS

                                  Well, we're safe for now. Thank goodness we're in a bowling alley.
                                  - Pleasantville

                                  Comment

                                  • richv5254
                                    Junior Member
                                    • Jun 2006
                                    • 2

                                    #18
                                    Home Theater Set Up

                                    Hey guys I'm new to the forums and was hoping you could help me out.

                                    Here is the set up I'm considering.

                                    Samsung 71" HL-R7178W Television
                                    Panamax 5510
                                    Pioeer Elite VSX-74TXVI A/V Receiver (Let me know if this will be ok)
                                    Martin Logan Clarity (L/R)
                                    Martin Logan Fresco (Center)
                                    Martin Logan Vinette (Rear Speakers)
                                    Denon 1920-DVD

                                    Any suggestions would be greatly appreciate it.

                                    Comment

                                    • Azeke
                                      Super Senior Member
                                      • Mar 2003
                                      • 2123

                                      #19
                                      Richv5254,

                                      First of all welcome to HT Guide :welcome:

                                      That seems like a very nice system setup, however the only thing I would reconsider is the Pioneer receiver. I really enjoy separates (Pre-pro and amps) as opposed to avrs, so therefore I would consider that option, depending on your budget and logistics. Also consider the new Toshiba HD DVD player, it is capable of 1080p, which will make you HDTV shine. Just my humble opinion, YMMV.

                                      Peace and blessings,

                                      Azeke

                                      Comment

                                      • richv5254
                                        Junior Member
                                        • Jun 2006
                                        • 2

                                        #20
                                        Home Theater Set Up

                                        Azeke,

                                        Thanks for allowing me to join this great site.

                                        What kind of (Pre-pro and amps) would you recommend?

                                        I'm pretty excited about it and I've done a lot of research, but my knowledge is nowhere close to everyone else on this site.

                                        Thanks again for your help.

                                        Rich

                                        Comment

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