Rotel vs Outlaw

[junior77blue]

That sub is HUGE!! Is the outside covererd in fabric or other?

[Nick M]

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Yup, she's friggen huge. It looks even bigger in real life. I could fit one of my CBM-170s + it's 30" stand inside one of these no prob'.
(Also note my sexy widescreen 1080p 13" display mounted on an extra 30" stand). Yes, yes, the plasma/front projector is next.

Anyhoo, this is my initial frequency response with the BFD in bypass (modified using RS SPL meter fudge factors). I played with phase for awhile (which did little) and found this to be the easiest curve for me to hit with the BFD P-EQ. My attack strategy is going to be to place a nice n' smooth decline from 87dB at 30Hz to roughly 83dB at 90Hz. I'll be left with a slight 2-3dB null from ~90Hz to 103Hz. Then I'll put an aggressive cut in after that to battle the 105Hz to 120Hz peak (to eliminate whatever oomph if any that the sub is contributing in that range). Then the sub will get turned up a few dB.

Please note the 97dB peak at 10Hz...

Off to the BFD...

[Nick M]

Hmmmmmmmmmmm...

I decided to take a break from calibrating the BFD/1646+ and threw some DVDs in. Started with "The Incredibles". Please note the following...

1. BFD is in bypass.
2. Speakers are crossed over with sub at 80Hz.
3. Gain on sub is at 50%.
4. Pre/pro sub level is at +2.
5. Master volume is at -15.

I believe the sub is bottoming out. During the rocket lift-off scene where dash is in the blast tunnel the sub really gets going (shaking the light fixtures and pressing my eyeballs in kind of get-goin') and then I heard 2 or 3 clacks coming from the sub. These weren't the rocket clacks that come from the main speakers either. I tried it 3 times, and it occured 2 out of the 3 times.

[Nick M]

This also occurs on Disc 2 in the bonus short "Jack Jack Attack" where Jack Jack burst into flames after being shown the campfire flashcard.

I'm shutting it down until I speak with SVS.

[David Meek]

Nick, looking at the last image you posted, can I make a suggestion?

Buy a BIGGER TV. That little 13" just won't do justice to The Incredibles. :B

[Nick M]

Ok, ok, get the laughs out... come on, laugh it up... :B

As I said above, Plasma/Front Projection is next on the list. I'm not one to make payments, so I have to save first. I figure about $2k for either a 480p 42" plasma or 720p LCD projector. It'll take a few months. Sometime in early summer... :P

[Nick M]

Swapped eMail with Ron from SVS. He said that it's possible to bottom it out in 12Hz mode with one port plugged.

I'm going to try it in 16Hz mode with all ports unplugged tomorrow. It's getting too late here to crank it up much (almost 11pm).

I am a little miffed that I can't run it in 12Hz mode without bottoming though. Kind of a pointless feature if you can't use it safely...

This thing definetly belts out some serious infrasonic bass. I'll see what it can do with infrasonics tomorrow in 16Hz mode.

[Nick M]

I just removed the plug from the port (easier said than done, they go in alot easier ) and reset the 1646+ for 16Hz mode. I'll recheck the FR curve tomorrow. Atleast I didn't get too deep into creating filters with the BFD...

[Brandon B]

Just soz ya know, the rocket blast off in The Incredibles is a major test for a sub. It is one of the few times mine has clacked too.

BB

[Pieter]

Nick, stop fart-arsing about!

I'd suggest dropping the video and saving for a Velodyne DD1812, BUT you'd probably bottom that too!

I've a feeling that an IB will be the only thing to put a smirk on your face.

Pieter

[Kevin P]

Maybe you posted this before, but I'm too busy/lazy to search back through this thread, but how big is your HT room? WxDxH or cubic feet? Bigger rooms work a sub harder to push more air, and subsonics require the most movement of air (driver excursion). When you reach the Xmax of the driver, it bottoms out.

There are a number of solutions: 1) lower the sub level, 2) use a subsonic filter, 3) add a 2nd sub, or 4) upgrade to a CS-Ultra, IB, or a 15 or 18" sub

All the Pixar movies are low-bass fests. They can bottom a sub even if nothing else does.

[Patt]

Bottoming out? :bluezoned:

I get penetrated with sound waves if I crank it and stand close with the 2039+ but havent reached bottoming.
Says somewhere in the manual to be careful with the port plugs so something doesnt get damaged. Maybe removing the port plugs with a cork screw will work?

Happy shake your ribcage loose day!

[Nick M]

My room is ~1500ft^3 with one doorway.

I was using the sub in 12Hz mode with one port plugged. SVS' Ron Stimpson advised me to try it's native 16Hz mode with all three ports open. I'm working on it right now...

[Patt]

Sounds like youre having fun today.

I've got "about" 2300 cubic feet with a small hall and open doors at one end, and one open doorway at the other.
The house has a crawl space and all carpet with leather and cloth furniture. I hung a floor runner on the wall to help absorb even more sound and it looks OK to boot. Before the isolation with the slab squash balls and points it could do some extraordinary wall and floor shaking.
I get a kick out of these subs when the music is way down low and you crank up the sub to feel the compression and hear the bass.

Hey, youre a real tease :P with a picture of those 5 Paradigm s2's.....I have a couple 40v3's and have thought about going up to the s4's before trade in time runs out.

[Nick M]

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Dashed Line = 12Hz Mode
Solid Line = 16Hz Mode

My room's FR with the 1646+ in it's native 16Hz mode with all ports free.
Biggest difference was an increase from 17-20Hz and a loss of some infrasonic material. I also found a slight increase of SPL across many parts of the curve above 20Hz. I'm going to check if it bottoms out a little later.

[Patt]

Havent quite figured out this stuff yet but with AVIA when I do a frequency sweep with the 2 channel and sub that meter doesnt stay the same. It jumps up pretty high then levels off then drops down real low 4 or 5 times before it finishes. Is that what they call dips or peaks?

What the heck is a node? Maybe I should start a thread about that.

[Nick M]

I love the S2's. They simply dissapear and it's as though they aren't even there at all, its just the music...

Oh well, no way I'm dumping $5k into new speakers and stands... :B

Havent quite figured out this stuff yet but with AVIA when I do a frequency sweep with the 2 channel and sub that meter doesnt stay the same. It jumps up pretty high then levels off then drops down real low 4 or 5 times before it finishes. Is that what they call dips or peaks?

What the heck is a node? Maybe I should start a thread about that.

Yup those are peaks and nulls. The ideal response would be completely flat throughout the sweep, or gently increasing as you approach 20Hz. I believe nodes are parts of the room that excite or suck up bass.

[Nick M]

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The lower solid line that breaks off at 35Hz is the modified FR using the BFD-Pro pEQ. The null around 95Hz was very touchy. I tried to smooth the area before and after it the best I could without kicking it down further (which I did by about 1.5-2dB).

Overall it's very smooth out to 90Hz with a steep ramp in the 20-30Hz range that rolls out relatively gentle until the pothole noted above.

Listening impressions to come soon.

[Patt]

Well....it looks a bit smoother, I wonder what makes the null at 95 & 100?

[ekkoville]

Nicholas, what kind of tones ae you using and in what form are they, i.e. a pink noise or something more refined?

Erik

[Nick M]

http://www.nch.com.au/tonegen/index.html

This is a tone generator that Ron from SVS recommended. It works great!

[stantheman2]

Hey, looking at the posted photos of your large, cylindrical sub, I am reminded of one of Kate Winslet's lines from Titanic. Allow me to paraphrase:

"Mr. Mosher, are you aware of Dr. Freud's writings about the male preoccupation with size?"

[Patt]

If I had my way and 'not on the cheap' it would be a Martin logan. Pretty cool looking and small which would blend right in under the tv/stereo table. It's somewhere around 2000 bucks locally.

.....of course with SVS its not just bang for the buck......its big bang for the buck.

[Nick M]

Ok guys, I ran it through just about everything I have in 16Hz mode. I want to thank and apologize to my neighbors (landlord) upstairs, people blown into the road walking on the sidewalk out front, and small animals in the woods outback that were driven underground.

I should start by saying it didn't bottom out even once today. I did notice a drop in the infrasonics during a few scenes moving from the 12Hz tune to the 16Hz tune, but I can't sit there and listen to "Clack-a-Rap Rap" as the driver destroys itself. The super-lows are still nice and strong though, better than anything I've ever heard.

Here it goes...

LOTR: FOTR
The 16-46 PC+ picked up the nice infrasonic tail to the "Ring Drop" scene at the beginning of the film. This movie is loaded to the hilt with Bass. I swear, I was waiting for a 6 second 20Hz blast when the hobbits flip the piece of canadian bacon in the frypan. The 1646+ was nice and calm though. After calibration the sub blended in smoothly and wasn't boomy whatsoever. It lended deep, nearly bottomless impacts to anything that asked for it. The breath-sucking bass that backs up the inferno of the balroq was spectacularly clean yet powerful.

LOTR: ROTK
Oliphant footstomps land with a "THUD" not a "THOOMP". Very, very nice. The Oliphant collision scene captured the deep infrasonic space-warping impact. All the butts, hits, and falls in the battle epics were as clean as I expect for this kind of money. I'd say 95% as clean as anything I've ever heard. Frodo and Sam in Mt. Doom was excellent. Not just the Heartbeat that sent waves of audible & inaudible bass through the floor rattling the light fixtures, but also the bass rendered from the environment. When the camera pans around as Sam first enters there are room shaking effects that really hit you with the volatile nature of the "set".

Master & Commander
Chapter 4. Yup, cannons cracked, wood busted, people screamed. The cannon blasts were tight with that nice and low wall-flexing hit that comes just after the high-frequency crack and low-frequency thump. Impacts and cannonfire were nice and discreet, a huge improvement over the PB10-ISD. No complaints for chapter 4.

Star Wars: Episode I
"Start your engines!", I got ready with my box of cheez-itz and hard cider. I noticed a wee-bit of rumble in about 10sec of the entire chapter, isolated to just 2 or 3 intense scenes. Some of this may just be the material though, as I have some beef with a few of the sound effects and how they are mixed in this scene. Canyon exits are nice and clean, and rock the room. Completely satisfactory performance.

The Incredibles
Incredible bass that is. It's everywhere, even more than LOTR with it's 15Hz earthquakes as Liv Tyler tosses her hair. As noted above, this movie caused the 1646+ to bottom out in 12Hz mode with a peak output of 103dB in my 1500ft^3 room. Once in 16Hz mode, it had no problems, but I did feel like I was missing a little something after the swap, especially during the Rocket liftoff while Dash is in the blast tunnel. Still, in 16Hz mode the 1646+ was no slouch, going deep and clean with a nice SPL. My favorite part is actually the bonus short on disc 2, "Jack Jack Attack". When Jack Jack bursts into flames after being shown the campfire flashcard the impact given off by the 1646+ is fantastic. The controlled thunder is maintained throughout the whole scene, as he is chased all over the room.

Black Hawk Down
The "Other Chapter 4". I could tell I was pushing the sub a bit here. When the soldiers run from the hangar to get on the choppers I could feel the infrasonics of the rotor blades tearing a hole in the atmosphere. Combined with the bass heavy soundtrack and explosions the sub felt like it was approaching it's limit and getting ready to shoot through my ceiling like some hilarious Monty Python skit. It never once bottomed out, but I was on the floor a couple times listening intently in panic.

Next I tried some DVD-A and SACD titles...

Diana Krall: Love Scenes DVD-A
Bass chords are beautiful! The sub drew little, if any attention to itself. The quick, loud notes at the beginning of "My Love Is" were just that, quick and loud. Everything was natural and completely transparent. The sub blended so nicely that imaging was spot on, and not ruined by a rumbling box that detracted from this quality. The PB10-ISD struggled to do this, while the 1646+ did it effortlessly. I listened to the whole disc... twice... ... ...in a row.

LAGQ: Latin/Guitar Heroes SACD's
Not much bass, but the sub has to pick up just a little bit from whats crossed over to it at 80Hz. The 16-46 PC+ did a fine job that was once again clean and transparent. Nothing else to say here.

Telarc's Tchaikovsky: 1812 Overture SACD
Holy loud cannon-blasts Batman! I got down next to the sub just to make sure it wasn't bottoming out, and it wasn't. The first one that went off scared the crap out of me. Cheezitz flew everywhere, and my rug escaped a near disaster as I expertly righted my tipped cider bottle. Unbelieveable! Big drum blasts had a tiny bit more "whoomp" to them than they should, but even when focusing on this one small aspect it was minor. What a great 16min performance.

Dupre.Franck.Widor SACD
Yup, this sub does pipe organs. Very pleased. It fleshes out the higher bass nicely, and belts out those curdling lows excellently. Not much more to say on this one either. Listened to the whole disc by mistake.

Eagles: Hotel California DVD-A
Kick-drums sound better than they did on the PB10-ISD, but they still don't sound ideal. Could just be the mix, but there is a bit too much whoomp in it. Given the clarity of other bass hits, I'm wondering if it's just me. It may also be that I grew up listening to this just on 3" stereo speakers, and now that I have a big gnarly 12" driver belting out those notes my ears/memory are disagreeing. I dunno.

With the 16-46 PC+ I've definetly found the extension I was looking for, but after tasting it in 12Hz mode I've managed to plant seeds of desire in the back of my mind. Overall it has phenomenal performance that has easily met my expectations. With the sole-exception of an uber-expensive Thiel sub I heard at one of my local hifi shops, this is the best sub I've ever heard that meets my demands of extension, clarity, and output. I plan to keep this one!!! Woo-hoo!!!

I do have some beefs though. This thing was bottoming in 12Hz mode with a peak output of 103dB in my 1500ft^3 room. In otherwords this optional extension really isn't optional (in my case atleast). Kick/kettle drum blasts don't seem to be 100% in their clarity, but they're close enough for me, especially at this pricepoint.

During a few passages peaking in the 100dB range I could tell the sub was raising an eyebrow at me (work with the metaphor please). Seeing as I don't have the $4k for that Thiel sub I loved, I'm seriously considering the possibility of placing another 16-46 PC+ on the other side of my front soundstage. I know colocating is the best option, but I feel that spreading two out to either side of my front soundstage will help to make the bass even further diffused and even less localized during intense bass scenes. From my understanding, with proper setup (and phase) this will also increase headroom for the super-peaks in films such as The Incredibles and Black Hawk Down. While I was looking at getting my display next, I may try another 16-46 PC+ next month to see if that fills in the last 8 or 9% of my desire. Boy am I glad that I'm single... :B

Two thumbs up for the SVS 16-46 PC+! :T :T

[RACER4551]

Nick concrats on your svs purchase.I have been following your great story since its beginning and is informative and entertaining.If i could make suggestion,have you ever tried setting your sub input volume at -5 on the pre .I have tried this and would recommend this method because it really works ,cleans up the bass signal alot and sounds so much cleaner with less distortion.The only down side is you have to drive the sub amp a little harder,if thats a bad thing.By the way i have the pb2+ and love the heck out of it. :T Enjoy

[Kens1]

Sounds like a great sub you have there - congratulations. I was reading about the sub bottoming out in 12 Hz mode and it made me think of when I went to listen to some Klipsch speakers the other day - the RF7's ( nice speakers) anyways the dealer also had a new klipsch sub hooked up as well that he could toggle off and on. It was the smallest one they make with a driver on the front and back. It sounded great until he cranked the volume and it starting "clacking" like crazy. The driver would come out about two inches followed by the clack sound. I had never heard that before - pretty unsettling. The dealer could see me noticing this terrible sound (how could you not) and offered "this thing can really shake the walls!"
Before this demo he stated he could sell me the floor models for 30% off - no thanks! I wonder how long he's been abusing that thing. That clacking sound is the worst!

[Nick M]

Ordered my second SVS 16-46 PC+ subwoofer today. Got a personal confirmation from Ron Stimpson too! Excellent service!

Can't wait to get it!
Pictures, measurements, and review to come once the brown box drops off the brown box. :P

[Nick M]

Scheduled delivery date of Wednesday the 25th!

I took Wednesday off from work, so I'm all set to rock from Wednesday until Saturday Afternoon when I go back to work at 3pm!

;b> opcorn:

[Cracking Oboe]

Way to go Nicholas!

Pushing the one you have just a bit too hard are you?

I’m still not clear about one thing… I thought you were originally looking at the Ultra. I’m still not clear what made you decide to go the Plus route instead. (Too bad… I was really looking forward to your review on the Ultra!).

Cracking?

[Nick M]

The 16-46 sized tubes are tuned lower than the 20-39 sized PC-Ultra. Before purchasing, I chatted with Ed Mullen and Ron Stimpson about which could play at higher SPLs in the infrasonic region. Both agreed that a 16-46 PC+ with all its ports open (16Hz native tune) would easily belt out infrasonics better than a PC-Ultra with a plugged port (16Hz mode). The problem with going with the huge 16-46 PC+ is that you lose peak capability at the higher frequencies. Where one PC-Ultra could probably get by in my room, one 16-46 PC+ is being pushed just a little too hard in some epic scenes. In the end this route will cost me more, but feeling those frequencies in the deep teens is worth it...:demon:

I told them I was 'gonna flip if they come out with 16-46 sized PC-Ultras next month... :letitout: :B

I can't wait, the sub should arrive sometime tomorrow... 8O

[Nick M]

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More to come...

[Nick M]

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I need to go get a couple more concrete pavers. The sub is on the left side of the front soundstage now, but my camera needs a wideangle lens to capture the full front wall so I colocated them for a quick picture. Kick-@$$!

[Nick M]

Wow, setting phase was easy enough!

Started with Sub #1 on with a "0" phase setting, and recorded 70dB. Turned on Sub #2 with a "0" phase setting and recorded 76dB. Can't get much easier than that!

Running gains on both subs at 3/8 notch levels, or ~38%. The Pre/Pro's sub level is at -5dB.

I'm going to tweak 'em with the BFD tonight (all of the above was with the BFD in bypass).

I'll do some preliminary listening in a couple hours.

[Nick M]

Ok, calibrated sub 1 to 70dB, shut it off, turned on #2 and calibrated that to 70dB (didn't have to change anything actually). Turned #1 back on and got ~6dB increase. I guess it's just $#!t luck...

Spent the last two hours just listening without BFD. I definetly need to set it up again, but I wanted to get a taste of what I bought.

I can already tell two issues have been solved...

1. No more problems with peak impacts! Holy smokes! Aside from some room resonances, there doesn't seem to be any struggle whatsoever during the big bass classics.
2. The bass is everywhere, I can no longer tell what side of the room the bass is coming from, because its coming from both sides now (duh)...


More to come once I knock down a few FR humps with the BFD.

[ekkoville]

Hey Nick, what's the latest with the projector?

[Nick M]

Ok, here is a current floorplan of the room. I had to swap the subs to the outside of the FL & FR because I may go with a 92" screen over a 72" if visible pixelation isn't too too bad. My 5.0m sub cable was just long enough...

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Here is the best front soundstage shot I can manage. I'm standing just outside the doorway depicted above on the floorplan. Everyone tells me I should go atleast 92" for a screen given my ample wall realestate. Problem is 72" is the max suggested for my viewing distance of 8' (eyeball to wall). I'll be able to determine what I can go with once I pick up a PJ, sometime in mid-July I'm guessing. This is a mock 72"er.

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Anyhoo, I ran sine waves tonight and plotted them. This is without the BFD. I almost crapped myself as I ran the tones until I hit 55-60Hz. Pretty flat from 12Hz to 50Hz. I'm going to play with Phase tomorrow turning both knobs at the same rate to see if I can get a better blend with the mains. If not, I'm going to work with this. My plan will be to gently slope the curve down to ~78dB @ 55Hz and cut the 65-75Hz range down to ~76dB. I illustrated this too. Not perfect, but we'll see.

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Getting too late to crank the subs (after 10pm here) so they'll have to wait until tomorrow...

[Nick M]

Adjusted the phase of both subs to 180 (also tried 90 which was worse), recalibrated each sub alone to 70dB, and verified a +5-6dB increase with both running. This smoothed out the blending with my mains creating less significant valleys at 60 & 80Hz.

My subs and mains are calibrated to 85dB@00dB on my Master Volume.
This caused the BFD to light up red bars on Master and Commander, so both sub gains were set to 50% and sub level in my pre/pro is set at -12dB. Just green bars now.

Not quite happy with my curve quite yet, but here is my first quick attempt.
I need to slope that 40-60Hz region down more, and possibly take a little off the 20Hz peak. I was also naughty and used a couple positive "bump" filters at 60 and 80Hz. I figured with the amount of headroom I have and the fact that these are higher frequencies it shouldn't hurt anything. Post testing didn't indicate any struggle at these frequencies with ~100dB of output via Sine waves so it should be ok. This curve was also generated with only 3 filters!

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More to come along with a final review once I get the FR curve to my liking.

[Nick M]

Ok guys, I finally finished tweaking everything and running the setup through all my test material.

Here are some images of my front "soundstage" and surround right area.
Its tough to get shots without warping the view.

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Here is my final frequency response. With just one cylinder I used all twelve BFD filters. With the duals this FR was achieved with just four! I'm very happy with it. A nice hump from 12Hz - 25Hz, dead-nuts flat from 25Hz - 60Hz, and then a fairly smooth 7dB drop from 60Hz to 100Hz. Everything from 12Hz to 45Hz is untouched natural response. Take a look...

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How it sounds...
KICK-@$$!
Hands down this is the most amazing bass I've ever heard. Solid authoritative extension to 12Hz, massive peak SPLs, no sound of struggle during intensive passages, completely non-directional, and response that is atleast 90% as clean as anything I've heard. In my ~1500ft^3 room with the BFD these units get the job done.

Listening to the opening sequence of "Open Range" in DTS at 5dB below reference, the Thunder & Lightning sounds 100% authentic. With the surrounds creating a completely immersive rainfall this sequence is one of my refound favorites.

One vs Two.
Adding the second sub to the opposite side of the front soundstage eliminated any ability of mine to tell what side of the room the bass was eminating from. Peak slams (such as thunder raps) seem much more authoritative, and there seems to be less "struggle" during intense passages. Adding the second sub really opened everything up and was definetly worth the extra cash.

My audio setup is finally finished... saving up and moving on to the display side of things...

[Bill Meekins]

Nick, I've been following this thread since it started. I just wanted to say that I enjoyed every step of the way. Congrats on your system. I plan on using it as an example to the misses when I get my system started in our first home.

I'm looking forward to your projector search as well, which I have also been avidly following along. I've got a nice wall in the family room and a fiance who doesn't mind a big screen. :T

[Nick M]

Cool Bill!

It will be at least a couple months before I have ~$2k to dump on a projector. Hopefully with vacations coming up at work I'll get some overtime and speed the savings along...

Then I'll be fabricating a mount, ordering long cables, and requesting screen samples. I'll also be able to tell exactly how big I can go without serious image degradation. Last but not least will be black velvet curtains and comfy hometheater seating.

Anyhoo, I'll probably be posting more questions and my findings in the projection section of the forum. Eventually I'll have everything tied together on my website too...

[bgillyjcu]

I wish I could see the pictures from this thread.