Mahler's Symphonies 1 <--> 4, and 6 <--> 9 inclusive .

[2bluechris]

A new Thread to discuss Mahler's Symphonies :- 1 ; 2 ; 3 ; 4 and 6 ; 7 ; 8 ; 9 , and any related topics to these .

Please post about #5 and #10 in the Mahler/Barshai thread, primarily to continue that discussion there, and to keep some sort of order to be able to find recommendations, etc ...

Chris.

[2bluechris]

Symphony #9, and #6 in brief, Barbirolli's recordings

Keith, I haven't heard any of Bernstein's recordings of #9 so far as I remember, {but its possible I may have heard his final one on Deutsche Grammophon, memory may return one day, perhaps if I hear it again}.

I have only one recording of the 9th, and that is Barbirolli's famous one for HMV, now on an EMI CD.

I bought at the same time Barbirolli's recordings of the 6th and the 9th.
An indulgent Glutton ? , no, it was simply that both were available at the time and it seemed they may not be for much longer then, though both have been re-issued again now.
I had just read about Barbirolli's recordings of both, and about the works themselves in brief, and was interested to hear them.
I played #6 first.
It sort of made sense to me, but not entirely. I haven't played it for a long time, but I will again, though given my impression I'm not convinced Barbirolli has got all of what is written in that music.

Then I played his 9th, on another day. This one made sense as a whole, though I certainly do not claim I grasped the entire work over a single listening, however it did have a sense about it which I had not heard in his of #6.
I distinctly remember these first impressions, as these was the first time I had listened to anything by Mahler, and I was focussed on hearing what was in both works.

Why I write as above, is that you wrote you are not happy with the Bernstein/BPO recording of the 9th - sometimes one can get a valid impression that there is something not quite right about an interpretation, {presuming the music itself has comprehensive worth}.
This does not always work of course, as sometimes one is not in a state of mind to be receptive to the music itself, or to a particular performance of it, and that has happened to me also.
Also, a few times I've been impressed by some music on first hearing, but on a later hearing of it have not been, however this is when I hear somthing by co-incidence, as distict from settling quietly to concentrate on listening, {as I did with Barbirolli's Mahler recordings}.

Anyway, do post about your impressions of Haitink's and Ancerl's versions after you have had time to digest them.
I have read about Haitink's Concertgebouw recording in several places and am thinking I will buy a copy at some time as I think he has the understanding and ability to conduct that work well.
I like several recordings I have by him and though I know he is not good on everything {no-one is}, I have a liking for the way he does some things - I think he understands music well.

I am presuming you have ordered his Concertgebouw recording, and not his, later, BPO recording .?.

Ancerl I have heard only a few recordings by. He is obviously a good conductor, however I have not heard sufficient of his recordings to be able to predict anything specific.

Chris.

[Danbry39]

Earlier today, my wife walked in with a package. I immediately said, that's the Ancerl Mahler 9. I've pretty much been listening to other recordings I have of his when I could this week in anticipation.

If you recall, Mahler's ninth was the one that has proven most difficult for me. Not any longer. Of the three I owned, I best liked Chailly because of his bookend movements. His third didn't really do it for me.

When I received the Ancerl, I got off the computer right away and put it on my "good" system. Truth be told, I was blown away, especially by how he handled the complexities of the interplay between the different musical currents and the dynamics of the whole piece. The playing by the Czech Philharmonic is top drawer as well. I highly recommend this disc. There are "like new" copies at Amazon for $6-7 plus shipping. It is one I'll listen to over and over in the future. Now, there are those partial to Haitink and those to Ancerl, as well as a host of others, but I'll be pleasantly surprised if I like it measurably more than the Ancerl. Just the thought makes my mouth water, although I do expect them to have quite different presentations.

[Danbry39]

Oh, sorry, yes the Haitink is the Concertgebouw that's paired with Das Lied von der Erde.

[Danbry39]

This does not always work of course, as sometimes one is not in a state of mind to be receptive to the music itself, or to a particular performance of it, and that has happened to me also.

Agreed.

[Burke Strickland]

I'm sure glad Joel decided not to close down the classical CD shop that bears his name here in Houston in the face of internet sales and downloads -- stopped in after work one evening recently when the traffic map showed that the freeways were a "parking lot" and asked if I could hear a "sample" of a recent release of Mahler's Third performed by Haitink with the Chicago Symphony Orchestra and he played the entire symphony while I was shopping there. Listening to it persuaded me to buy it (of course it sounds far better at home) -- along with seven other disks (some Bach, Schubert, Beethoven and Mozart in addition to the Mahler) I found during that extended shopping spree.

Actually, I ended up buying TWO versions of Mahler's Third Symphony that evening. The first was the aforementioned Haitink -- absolutely captivating performance and stellar sound on the CSO label. If you like his Ninth with the Concertgebow, you will want to check out this Third.

The other is an early 1960s performance by the Boston Symphony Orchestra led by Eric Leinsdorf. The sound quality is really surprising -- remastered sound is like a new recording -- and the performance is amazing. Before last month, I thought Bernstein had the Third pretty well sewn up, but both Haitink and Leinsdorf gave it ravishingly beautiful and excitingly dynamic readings captured nearly perfectly on CD and well worth listening to, even if they don't displace your choice for "best ever".

The Leinsdorf performance also has Mahler's First Symphony on the second disc (the Third lasts over an hour and forty minutes so there is no way it would fit on one CD) and it is electrifying -- perhaps the most satisfying of any of the many performances of the Mahler First that I've heard (and bought) over the years. I've been partial to the Kubelik performance with the Bavarian Radio Symphony Orchestra, found special pleasure with Zubin Mehta's reading with the NY Philharmonic, was mesmerized by Georg Solti's relatively languid pacing of the First with the Chicago Symphony and bowled over by the Kegel performance with the Dresden Philharmonic.

But just as Leinsdorf's and Boston's triumphant rendition of the 9th (of Beethoven) slightly edges out many other wonderful performances available on disk, so does his magical interpretation of the Mahler First. Even if it does not become your "favorite", it is worth a listen. What the heck -- it's a great bonus to get with a "must have" Third.

Burke

[wkhanna]

Well, guys, you must forgive my obsessive compulsive, ferret-like listening habits. I get side-tracked easily, and have been on a full-blown Thelonious Monk journey lately.

What I can comment on is that I am a little disappointed in the engineering of the SACD on Chanilly #3. It is synthesized and puts you in the middle of the orchestra and not in the hall. No problem though, I just play the redbook layer on my Cambridge 640 CDp, and the SQ is V good!

I like the intensity and minor key of the first movement. I am still trying to find how the march is supposed to integrate into the entire work, however. At times within the entire piece, I get a sense of a movie score and others a Broadway score. Overall, I prefer it to #1, but I have not had enough time with #1. Just two spins, and both with many distractions. I was however impressed that it was his first, and I am sure when I can finally spend some uninterrupted time with it, it will reveal itself to me.

[Danbry39]

Wkhanna,

Sorry to hear about the SACD strategy on the No. 3. I am glad that the redbook sonics are good, though.


Burke, that's one I'll have to consider down the line. I keep on saying I'm done collecting Mahler, but you know the story...

Chris, received the Haitink 9 today. Haven't listened to Das Lied von der Erde yet, but the 9 is very well constructed and beautifully played, although much more subdued than the fiery Ancerl. Parts like the Andante comodo are just so beautifully played. However, the sonic quality is obviously not going to be as good as a more modern recording. As an example, the strings sound thin at points. On the other hand, the sound stage and air between the musical sections is very good.

It seems that Mahler here starts off with an optimism and almost hopeful yearning and that when the disruptive orchestral force enters the picture, it seems to be as an intruder from the outside (here as elsewhere in the form of a funeral march). Eventually, this becomes internalized and, in the end, there is resignation that the inevitable can't be escaped, but with almost a nobility and calm serenity in that acceptance. That's why the final movement is so important in the piece and Haitink's final movement is just superb. I think I enjoy Haitink and Chailly best as far as the end is concerned, with Haitnik #1. As Mahler never composed chamber music, I like to listen to parts of the final movement as a piece of chamber music. It's easy to recognize that he could have done some amazing work in this regard as well.

Now, as to my ranking of my number 9's, at least at this early stage. Ancerl takes top prize, with Chailly second in large part due to the great sonics and a great Adagio. Haitink would be next (if not for the sound quality, right there or maybe ahead of Chailly with another beautiful Adagio), then Lopez-Cobos, and lastly Bernstein and the Berlin.

At least I have four No. 9's that I personally find very good to excellent and that makes my very happy.

Edit: As I'm listening to the Haitink a second time -and liking it more- it now seems that the conflict might be internal all along.

[Danbry39]

Listened to the Ancerl and Haitink again last night. I'll just say that the Haitnik is moving up on my list, especially as it's coupled with an excellent Das Lied von der Erde. It really is seductive and will be my choice if I listen to No. 9 again today.

I'm thinking I might want to check out his third that Burke mentioned. Any other Haitinks to consider?

[Danbry39]

Forget about another Haitink.

Problem is that I've read about a particular box set by posters I really value for a while and it began to make me kind of obsessed with getting it...and with a conductor I'd never heard of before, Bertini. There's just no other way to get the discs individually, so I bought it.

Now, here's my rational.

1. I had a five dollar coupon that had to be spent by the end of the month at Amazon as part of my purchase of the last installment of Harry Potter.
2. I spend more hogging down with my family on one dinner.
3. Same with the cost of going to the movies.

And...................this will give me pleasure a lot longer.

Besides, I moped this afternoon and my wife insisted. In turn, I told her I'd be soooooo nice to her and told her she'd get something very nice for her birthday next month.

I know this sounds stupid, but I really, really like Mahler and have for years.

[pbarach]

&quot;blown away&quot; by Ancerl

When I received the Ancerl, I got off the computer right away and put it on my "good" system. Truth be told, I was blown away,

I have also long enjoyed the Ancerl recording of M9. As a sidelight, the first U.S. issue of this performance was on a budget-label Crossroads LP. The cover was a hilarious cartoon of an orchestra showing all of the players exhausted and piled up in a big steaming heap--presumably, how they feel after playing the M9.

Crossroads (owned by Columbia Records, I think??) issued a number of LP's in the early '70's with hilarious covers that had no real relationship to the music. Only Westminster surpassed them for bizarre LP covers, e.g.:

http://www.parterre.com/uploaded_images/westminster_ring-762752.jpg

This website shows many more of their odd covers:
http://www.westminstergold.com/

[2bluechris]

Bertini or Gielen ?

I haven't heard anything conducted by Gary Bertini to date, so I plugged his name and Mahler into Google and amongst the selling sites I found two familiar and two other reviews' sites.
There I read some gushing, some reasoning, some qualifying, etc ... , but it seems he has done some good things, and perhaps more.

I liked the way one reviewer described the way he conducts the 6th movement of the 3rd symphony, and that caught my attention because it is the minor disappointment I have with Haitink's Concertgebouw version. It is not that Haitink is bad there, and he is probably quite good, but he is better in all the preceeding movements - various of good ; very good ; and exceptional - thus I would have liked a final m'ment to remain at that high, or go beyond {which is what the music seems to want to do}. No, he does not go down, and if one had not heard where that music can go then Haitink's would suffice.
I'll post more about this movement later.

From the reading around the web-sites, I would have thought that Michael Gielen's set was the one to obtain if one wanted a box-set.
It won't be perfect in every part of every symphony, as Bertini's won't be either, but it seems the enthusiasts have found plenty to like about Gielen's conducting, etc ...

If one buys a box-set and finds some things in it are just so special that it is worth it, then these outweigh the lesser attributes {and those can be substituted with other conductors' recordings}.

Anyway, as you have taken the plunge Keith, I think we will be reading from you about the results !
I hope your wife doesn't mind Mahler's music, or even more I hope she likes it, and as you have certainly been playing a lot of it ... more-so than usual owing to our queries in this Forum ? , or is such regular Mahler the usual inyour home ?

Have any readers heard any of Gielen's recordings ?

Chris

[Danbry39]

pbarach,

You don't know how happy I became when I heard that you enjoy the Ancerl. And, my gosh, I'm glad I didn't have coffee in my mouth which I would have spewed all over my computer screen when I clicked on your links for album covers. They were amazing!!!

Chris,

I have Gielen's Mahler six and seven. Both, imo, excellent. As a matter of fact, it was the Mahler's 7 that was the hardest nut for me to crack and took several years. On recommendation by someone I admired at the good music forums, I bought Gielen, but still was disinterested until I read Duggan's explanation of the piece. Then, all clicked and I've loved it since.

And, yes, without doubt, I would have considered the Gielen cycle if I didn't already have a couple of them. I might pick and choose down the line. Still, what I've been reading about Bertini makes me feel he might be the exact Mahler for me at this stage. As I get older, my paradigm with relation to Mahler seems to be shifting toward composers who make a strong emphasis on not drowning out the beauty that coexists with the angst. I think Bertini sounds like he balances the dichotomies of Mahler. Well, I'll keep my fingers crossed at least.

Do wish I had read up on him earlier though as some have posted that the complete set was in the low $40's earlier this year. Well, maybe Berkshire will have it at down the line on closeout for the ones lucky and patient enough.

[wkhanna]

Last evening, I finally had both the time and mind set for my first V focused listening of #1.

Before I proceed, I feel compelled to reassert what you must already know, that I am 'casual' listener when it comes to classical. Jazz makes up about 70% of my collection, 10% rock/New Age and the rest is classical. Oh yes, I have my Beethoven 1-9, actually three 9's, and his piano concerto's. And there is my Mozart collection, including Don Giovanni, to go with my Aida and my Caruso and Pavarotti favorites and a few other operas. Then there are the other rookie requisites like the 'Four Seasons' and so on. Some Bach chamber music, (not a big fan of his symphonies), Wagner, Pachelbel and some works by Itzhak Pearlman, Yo-Yo, etc., etc. Pretty much standard fare in a 50 -70 CD collection of clasical music.

Over the past two years I have returned to serous music listening after a ten year hiatus, and upgraded my system and doubled my CD collection. However, I have not given enough attention to the classical end of the spectrum, and hence my decision to peruse Mahler, and find out for myself what all the fuss was about.

With this preface in mind, please keep the opinions of my first impressions in perspective, and know that my primary intent is to learn from those of you so gracious of your time, patience and learned wisdom (gratuitous praise intended).

I found traces of a more modern (is neo-classical the correct term for Mahler?) style than the 'traditional' music I currently have. Mahler seems to be breaking rules. That is OK with me. What really stands out to me though, is the seemingly random nature of this work. Being his first, it invites the notion that he had yet to reign the power of a full orchestra. The image that came to mind was that of an impetuous young boy who came across a flame thrower, and randomly began firing in any direction that compelled him, pausing in between shots to admire the power he had yet to learn to wield in a more determinate and productive way.

I found the 1st movement pleasing, and the 2nd kept me waiting for a theme to develop. Again, I am new to Mahler and obviously he is new to me. I was totally lost by the 3rd, though I found a freshness in way he used horns and the subtle backgrounds which he created. As for the 4th, .........well, a 15 minute finally was more than I could grasp.

I went back over the liner notes and other writings on the work, but still failed to find the link.
But despair not gentleman, as I have a more persistent nature than most, and will continue to unknot the tangle that Mahler has now presented me.

[2bluechris]

Thelonious Monk, and Mahler, and much else also !

Well, guys, you must forgive my obsessive compulsive, ferret-like listening habits. I get side-tracked easily, and have been on a full-blown Thelonious Monk journey lately.

What I can comment on is that I am a little disappointed in the engineering of the SACD on Chanilly #3. It is synthesized and puts you in the middle of the orchestra and not in the hall. No problem though, I just play the redbook layer on my Cambridge 640 CDp, and the SQ is V good!

I like the intensity and minor key of the first movement. I am still trying to find how the march is supposed to integrate into the entire work, however. At times within the entire piece, I get a sense of a movie score and others a Broadway score. Overall, I prefer it to #1, but I have not had enough time with #1. Just two spins, and both with many distractions. I was however impressed that it was his first, and I am sure when I can finally spend some uninterrupted time with it, it will reveal itself to me.

Hey wkhanna, there is nothing to be forgiven - I like Thelonious Monk's music and playing a lot myself. He was a true innovator, one of the few who developed another direction Jazz could go in {which it needed, as does most developed music styles at times to prevent stagnation}.
I play various of his albums at times, and various of many, many musicians of many styles, or variations of styles.
For me its not "side-tracked", its playing what meets my mood on the occasion, and sometimes something very specific is needed to retain sanity ...
I may post about other musics in some other threads in this Forum when time is available, and in one soon I hope !

Don't worry if you prefer Mahler's 3rd to his 1st, as there's no Rules other than attempts by a few stranger than I people to place all Mahler's music above all other music, or almost ...
Indeed one can reasonably expect his 3rd to better his 1st, as he was developing as a composer then, and not yet at his peak.
On his 3rd I can agree with you about it resembling a Movie Score {though not a Broadway Score unless for a very serious and long work there, are there any ?}.
As you have read from the information Keith posted, and seen in the CD's booklet, it has not merely six movements, but six very distinct movements.
Is seems to me, after several listens through the work, that the music with-in each movement is "integrated", thus if after several listens you do not find such occurring then there may be a weakness in part of that version.

I have Haitink's famous Concertgebouw recording from the 1966. Some of it I liked immediately, and some took a few listens to grasp, and the 1st movement took more listens to hear all of what the music is doing, or what Haitink is doing with it. At first I thought it too long for its content, but after several listens more became apparent to me. I haven't finished considering this movement yet, nor the 6th movement which I'll post more about later - {see the latter part of my post below}.

Chris

[2bluechris]

Classical CD shops, and different recordings, and Mahler's 1st and 3rd

I'm sure glad Joel decided not to close down the classical CD shop that bears his name here in Houston in the face of internet sales and downloads -- stopped in after work one evening recently when the traffic map showed that the freeways were a "parking lot" and asked if I could hear a "sample" of a recent release of Mahler's Third performed by Haitink with the Chicago Symphony Orchestra and he played the entire symphony while I was shopping there. Listening to it persuaded me to buy it (of course it sounds far better at home) -- along with seven other disks (some Bach, Schubert, Beethoven and Mozart in addition to the Mahler) I found during that extended shopping spree.

Actually, I ended up buying TWO versions of Mahler's Third Symphony that evening. The first was the aforementioned Haitink -- absolutely captivating performance and stellar sound on the CSO label. If you like his Ninth with the Concertgebow, you will want to check out this Third.

The other is an early 1960s performance by the Boston Symphony Orchestra led by Eric Leinsdorf. The sound quality is really surprising -- remastered sound is like a new recording -- and the performance is amazing. Before last month, I thought Bernstein had the Third pretty well sewn up, but both Haitink and Leinsdorf gave it ravishingly beautiful and excitingly dynamic readings captured nearly perfectly on CD and well worth listening to, even if they don't displace your choice for "best ever".

The Leinsdorf performance also has Mahler's First Symphony on the second disc (the Third lasts over an hour and forty minutes so there is no way it would fit on one CD) and it is electrifying -- perhaps the most satisfying of any of the many performances of the Mahler First that I've heard (and bought) over the years. I've been partial to the Kubelik performance with the Bavarian Radio Symphony Orchestra, found special pleasure with Zubin Mehta's reading with the NY Philharmonic, was mesmerized by Georg Solti's relatively languid pacing of the First with the Chicago Symphony and bowled over by the Kegel performance with the Dresden Philharmonic.

But just as Leinsdorf's and Boston's triumphant rendition of the 9th (of Beethoven) slightly edges out many other wonderful performances available on disk, so does his magical interpretation of the Mahler First. Even if it does not become your "favorite", it is worth a listen. What the heck -- it's a great bonus to get with a "must have" Third.

Burke

Hi Burke,
I too am glad Joel has not closed down his classical CD shop, and I have never been there. We need specialist CD shops so that we can hear decent length samples of unfamiliar recordings ! The 30 second and 1 minute samples on Amazon are not adequate for assessing most Classical music, nor some types of Jazz and some other styles.
I will always buy at preference in a shop which allows listening to any other shop or mail-order {though I realize that mail-order is the only option for a variety of music for people living in remote areas, etc ...}, because being able to listen is necessary to choose either or both the music itself or a particular recording of it.
Long may there remain such shops, and I urge all readers to patronise such shops when-ever you are able to.

I haven't heard any of Leinsdorf's Mahler recordings, nor any recordings by Leinsdorf - what are his specialties, the best few you have heard him conduct ?
{other than the Beethoven 9th you mentioned}.

I have read about some of his Mahler recordings, and on that Boston recording of #1, one critic says Leinsdorf's Royal Philharmonic Orchestra recording of #1 for Decca/London is even better !
{at least one critic, I'll have to check as I may have forgotten another}.

For the 3rd symphony, Bernstein is not generally regarded as one of the best {other than by the die-hard Bernstein fans} in either of his recordings of it, but Haitink's 1966 Concertgebouw recording is, thus I am curious about this Chicago Symph. Orch. version you have bought, and I did not know there was such till I read your post !

I have Haitink's 1966 Concertgebouw on Philips, and I like most of it a lot, though am a bit puzzled by the 6th movement.
I have not seen a Score, nor do I know how Mahler intended this movement to be played {other than what I could guess at from what he said it was about}.
I think it is likely that Haitink conducts this movement much as the score indicates, because that is usually what Haitink seems to do {along with some emphasis towards what he thinks the music is about, but not to such degree as to distort the Composer's intent}.
Bernstein's early {Columbia/now Sony} recording is similar to Haitink's in performance of this movement {similar, not identical}, thus why I think both are playing basically the Score, however, to me this way of performing it seems too earthbound !

Silly me, perhaps I have gone and spoiled what Mahler intended by listening to a version which may not simply play his Score :-
I listened to Bernstein's later recording on Deutsche Grammophon. Most of it I think is not as good as Haitink's, but the 6th movement ... this is sublime ... it starts with a Presence of something, and this rises, and rises, and where we are going then I don't want to come back from ...
OK, so that is what Bernstein did in his later years - took music somewhere he thought it should go, but is this where Mahler was intending ?

I suppose I'll have to listen to some other conductors on this 6th movement.

It may be silly to buy Bernstein's D.G. recording only for that movement, and Haitink is so good in most of the the other movements, eg:- in the 4th movement with Maureen Forrester I can accept some-one else will have conducted and sung it as well but no-one is likely to actually better it - it is so close to Perfect .

Well Burke, what do you think about the 6th movement after hearing the two versions you bought, and in comparison to any other versions you have heard ?

Yes, comment on the other movements also if you wish, as this is part of what we are doing in this thread and is interesting.

I suppose Keith will say I need to hear Chailly's recording !
Any comments on the 6th movement Keith, and wkhanna ??

Chris

[Danbry39]

I suppose Keith will say I need to hear Chailly's recording !
Any comments on the 6th movement Keith, and wkhanna ??

Chris

I've long learned that there is no one Mahler that fits all. :B

[wkhanna]

Last evening was the first time I was able to listen to the 3rd form beginning to end undisturbed.

Whatever mental image the 1st movement evokes, majestic must be used to describe it. I truly do get a sense of the grand mountainous, land scape. And by the limited use of strings, the lack of a human presence can be felt, but emotion is still within the score, and the dynamics kept me focused and attentive. I especially liked the theme of the horns, and how it maintained energy and suspense.

The 2nd was more traditional, transitional, and seemed to set the stage well for the 3rd well. Ah, yes the 3rd! At this early stage in my study of the entire work, it is my favorite, unwise at it is to remove one part from the whole. I especially like how he hinted at the horns from the 1st movement. Very moving and stirring. By the 4th, I began to wonder how he could take work beyond were it was. But by end of 6th, he had succeeded in taking me beyond the contemplation of god, and to the pure experience of existence it self. V powerful stuff indeed.

I look forward to my next session with this symph, and must agree with comments on how if your system can play Mahler with detail and realism, it can handle anything.

[pbarach]

What I can comment on is that I am a little disappointed in the engineering of the SACD on Chanilly #3. It is synthesized and puts you in the middle of the orchestra and not in the hall.

I don't hear that on my system. Are you sure that your surround channels aren't set at levels that are too high? I set mine with a sound pressure meter and test tones so that all of the speakers in my system are playing at the same level. Also, my surround speakers are monopoles and placed at 30-degree angles behind the sweet spot, which is where they should be placed for music. When I listen to that recording, I don't actually hear what's coming from the surrounds, but I do get an increased sense of hall ambience. And the Concertgebouw is a lively hall (I've been there).

[wkhanna]

That is a good suggestion, I will re-calibrate my system today with my SPL meter.
My room requires that my rear surrounds can not be placed in the ‘best’ position. They are a bit too close to my listening position, and are in the corners of the room.

The 3rd would really be great on SACD, with its dynamics and power. I am anxious to give it another spin soon, so I will work on ‘tuning’ my system using this CD.

[Danbry39]

wkhanna,

Your reflections were awesome!!!

[pbarach]

That is a good suggestion, I will re-calibrate my system today with my SPL meter.
My room requires that my rear surrounds can not be placed in the ‘best’ position. They are a bit too close to my listening position, and are in the corners of the room.

The 3rd would really be great on SACD, with its dynamics and power. I am anxious to give it another spin soon, so I will work on ‘tuning’ my system using this CD.

I'm assuming that your player transmits the SACD signals to your receiver over 5.1 analog connections, which is why the speaker settings for SACD are done by the player. There are a few setups that transmit SACD digitally to the receiver (such as DenonLink 3), in which case the receiver's speaker settings are the ones that matter.

M3/Chailly is a good demonstration of SACD, although I prefer Zander's M3 on Telarc (and it comes with a separate disc explaining Zander's view of the symphony and how it holds together).

Although they aren't on SACD, there are a couple of excellent Mahler DVD'son EuroArts, both conducted by Abbado and with stunning DTS sound--M2 and M9. I recommend these highly. However, the first copy of M9 I bought had the video slightly out of sync with the sound. The company replaced it with a PAL copy that's synchronized, and they said they are reissuing the NTSC disc in a corrected version.

[2bluechris]

Symphony #3 , 6th Movement ...

Very moving and stirring. By the 4th, I began to wonder how he could take work beyond were it was. But by end of 6th, he had succeeded in taking me beyond the contemplation of god, and to the pure experience of existence it self. V powerful stuff indeed.

.

Hi wkhanna,

I am very pleased you have found something of substance in this symphony, and from your descriptions it seems you have a good recorded peformance of it, {not that I doubted from Keith's enthusiasm for it, and now he's provoking me with a :B ! , that's OK Keith, I have to accept reality ...}.

Hi pbarach,

as you have both Chailly's and Zander's of this symph. , how do their performances compare for the 6th movement ?
and what do you think of this movement, and where it should take the symphony as a whole ?

Chris

[pbarach]

Hi pbarach,

as you have both Chailly's and Zander's of this symph. , how do their performances compare for the 6th movement ?
and what do you think of this movement, and where it should take the symphony as a whole ?

Chris

Actually, I gave my copy of Zander to a friend. My favorite performance of this piece is not on SACD; it's a live recording of Hatink/Concertgebouw that appeared in a box set of live performances of Mahler that were given on a number of Christmas days. This set was not issued in the US, but it can be purchased from the orchestra's own website (and it is also available on DVD's from the same source). The performances are much more involving than Haitink's series on Phillips, and they have better sound, too.

The last movement is difficult to conduct because it has to have its climax at the end. Many conductors play this movement as a series of climaxes, and that makes it boring. As to where it should take the symphony, I would not presume to say. That would be something your heart might tell you if the music speaks to you. I don't mean to sound goopy, but I don't think words do much to convey the intention of a piece of music.

[Danbry39]

Just dropping a little note to say that I've received the Bertini. Way too early to give any definitive reading on it, other to say that, as noted by Chris, a box set is going to be somewhat a mixed bag. When I first listened to the sixth, I had to turn it off in disappointment, but that was, in part, due to the fact that just before listening I had played my favorite version, which is one which is always driving forward, whereas Bertini appears to linger on segments longer. I'll return to it in the future though to better assess its merits. Other moments, such as the scherzo in the fifth simply amaze though.

In the meantime, I've decided to up my Mahler literacy. I'm first, through reading/listening attacking the Second and Third. This process will probably take quite a while as concentrating on Mahler will, in the end, lead to burn out. Even though he's my favorite symphonist, I need to mix it up with other music quite a bit.

Then, I'll choose another composer to do the same with. I'm thinking Sibelius at the moment. Was considering Shostakovich, but decided that he might be too big of a mountain to climb. First, there are his symphonic works, then his quartets, then all his other works. If I did, it would be his string quartets, as I favor them.

Perhaps, after Sibelius, I might go on to composers like Janacek or Martinu, I simply don't know yet.

All in all, I simply want to stop slopping over music which I tend to do.

[2bluechris]

Symphony #3, Sixth Movement .

My favorite performance of this piece is not on SACD; it's a live recording of Hatink/Concertgebouw that appeared in a box set of live performances of Mahler that were given on a number of Christmas days.
The performances are much more involving than Haitink's series on Phillips, and they have better sound, too.

The last movement is difficult to conduct because it has to have its climax at the end. Many conductors play this movement as a series of climaxes, and that makes it boring.

As to where it should take the symphony, I would not presume to say. That would be something your heart might tell you if the music speaks to you. I don't mean to sound goopy, but I don't think words do much to convey the intention of a piece of music.

Hi pbarach,
thankyou for your comments, and you have given me an apt answer, and I myself usually cannot find words to describe the full effect of many pieces of music ...

What you say about performances of the sixth movement is basically my only disappointment with Haitink's 1966 recording.
He starts the movement very nicely, but too soon spoils it with an unneccessarily loud interjection, then again later for longer.
The worst is his second last "climax", though the way he begins soon after that, very softly and quite atmospherically is very good, and he proceeds OK to the end but the final climax is not quite the build up I thought it should be, and its effect is not truely Great because he has already conducted the second last climax at that same intensity and volume level.
So far as I can remember this is not what Bernstein did in his second recording {Deutsche Grammophon}.
Pity is that all of the preceeding five movements of Haitink's 1966 are very good, and some truely excellent, {eg:- the fourth m'ment}.

I have not been able to find a shop with a copy of Chailly's recording to hear how he conducts the sixth m'ment, and I don't wish to buy any version that doesn't perform that m'ment in the way you said it should be, of which I'm not surprised, as I thought from the music itself that is how it should be performed .

Haitink was a young man 40 years ago, thus probably his thinking then, and now he may have thought further and understands better ...
From what you've said I am presuming that Haitink conducts that movement closer to optimum at the later live Concert, ?

I see there is also Haitink -{I think ?}- conducting #7 and #9 in the live Concertgebouw concerts' set, {?}.
He apparently did those very well years ago, thus if he has at least matched those, or exceeded them, I'd consider buying the set, and I may like his of some of the others.
Pity he didn't do #6 in Concert, but it is less a Christmas Matinee suited work than any of the others !

Chris.

[2bluechris]

Bertini on #3 ? , and other Composers ...

In the meantime, I've decided to up my Mahler literacy. I'm first, through reading/listening attacking the Second and Third. This process will probably take quite a while as concentrating on Mahler will, in the end, lead to burn out. Even though he's my favorite symphonist, I need to mix it up with other music quite a bit.

Then, I'll choose another composer to do the same with. I'm thinking Sibelius at the moment. Was considering Shostakovich, but decided that he might be too big of a mountain to climb. First, there are his symphonic works, then his quartets, then all his other works. If I did, it would be his string quartets, as I favor them.

.

Hi Keith, I should "up my Mahler literacy" also - as you will have read above I am grateful to pbarach for informing me of how the final m'ment of #3 should be conducted, though such did seem to me how it should be simply from the music itself - some music seems to tell the listener how it should be performed, though not all music does this, and some music can be performed quite well in several ways, as I think you will know.
So, how does Bertini conduct the sixth m'ment ?

I "mix it up" quite a lot - different Composers, and quite different music styles - that keeps my mind refreshed, etc ...

Shostakovich is a big mountain to climb, and I am not even half-way up, but there is no hurry ...
If you would like to start a Thread on his String Quartets sometime I will be happy to contribute, as I have two complete sets, and have heard some others' performances of a few of them.

Sibelius also !
I have heard five of his Symphonies -{perhaps six of}- and like three of them quite a lot. No single Conductor sets yet, but I am thinking about one in particular, thus will be happy to contribute to a Thread at some time, though it will be a month or two before I get a set on CD -{I have five symph's on LPs - one unplayed as it needs cleaning - and Cartridge's Stylus is a bit too worn to play my best LPs, thus will have to await time to replace properly, and other Turntable matters}.

Chris.

[pbarach]

Hi pbarach,
I see there is also Haitink -{I think ?}- conducting #7 and #9 in the live Concertgebouw concerts' set, {?}.
He apparently did those very well years ago, thus if he has at least matched those, or exceeded them, I'd consider buying the set, and I may like his of some of the others.
Pity he didn't do #6 in Concert, but it is less a Christmas Matinee suited work than any of the others !
Chris.

In my opinion, these live recordings of 7 and 9 are better than the earlier, studio recordings. Especially, the 9th, which was his farewell concert as director in the Concertgebouw Orchestra. I have had his studio recording since it came out, and I also heard Haitink conduct M9 in Cleveland in the 1970's or 1980's, but the live recording in the Concertgebouw is the best recording he has given of this piece, in my opinion. All of the performances in that Christmas box are conducted by Haitink.

Concerning M6, there is a live Haitink/Amsterdam performance dating from 11/68 that can be found in a 14-disc set of radio recordings sold on the orchestra's website. I haven't listened to it in some time...

[Danbry39]

Chris, I’m not sure Bertini’s the right conductor for what you want in Mahler’s Third. Of the three I have, he does give dramatic rises prior to the final climax, as does Chailly and Lopez-Cobos. Maybe, it’s a matter of semantics or degree. If only I had the Haitnik you refer to, I could see what you’re addressing and compare the two.

Nonetheless, I do feel that there needs to be emotional musical peaks in the final movement. After the spiritual heavenliness of the movement’s opening, doubt and anxiety seem to creep in, almost in challenge to the bliss. The tension created here would have to be resolved prior to the denouement, which paves the road for the climatic exultation at symphony’s end. Now, one can evolve from the material world created earlier to that of the true spirit.

Sure wish Dave from Washington State were here. He's very into music and could add to this discussion with his insight.

I do imagine that different conductors would assign different weight to the resolution of these moments and that individual listeners will have their preferences, but, for me, the interruptions to the musical splendor that dominates the movement only accentuates the beauty that is there.

Again, this is only my way of looking at it and certainly the both of you probably understand what’s going on musically better than I.

Oh, by the way, when you get to Sibelius, I’d wholeheartedly recommend you find a very good copy of Tapiola.

The one good thing about things like Sibelius and Shostakovich’s string quartets is that excellent renditions can be had for much less than getting Mahler. I think my two string quartet cycles cost $10-15 each.

Best regards to all.

[pbarach]

Nonetheless, I do feel that there needs to be emotional musical peaks in the final movement. After the spiritual heavenliness of the movement’s opening, doubt and anxiety seem to creep in, almost in challenge to the bliss. The tension created here would have to be resolved prior to the denouement, which paves the road for the climatic exultation at symphony’s end. Now, one can evolve from the material world created earlier to that of the true spirit.

Nicely put, but I think the point I was trying to make about performing this movement is that the strongest climax should take place at the end. If all of the other climaxes in this movement are equal in volume and intensity to the last one, then the conductor has failed to pay attention to the overall structure of the movement. It's like picking all of the raisins out of the raisin bread; what's left after that is rather doughy!

[Danbry39]

Thanks and totally agreed. The final climax should stand by itself above the others.

[wkhanna]

Nicely put, but I think the point I was trying to make about performing this movement is that the strongest climax should take place at the end. If all of the other climaxes in this movement are equal in volume and intensity to the last one, then the conductor has failed to pay attention to the overall structure of the movement. It's like picking all of the raisins out of the raisin bread; what's left after that is rather doughy!

This is exactly what puzzled me about S#1. The last movement was one 15 minute plateau of a climax that left me a bit bewildered and in the end, desensitized, on the Kubelik performance I have.

[2bluechris]

3rd Symphony, 6th movement

Thankyou pbarach and Keith for your time in explaining aspects of this 6th movement to me, I am very grateful.

Thanks and totally agreed. The final climax should stand by itself above the others.

This could work OK to good effect, thus if this is what Haitink achieved in the live recording of the Christmas matinee concert with the Concertgebouw then it could be the one for me, I hope ...

After all the time elapse and confused with other auditionings, I have forgotten exactly what Bernstein achieved there in his Deutsche Grammophon live recording, other than that it was different to his earlier Columbia{now Sony issued} recording, and preferable to Haitink's 1966, albeit in that movement only.

So here we are, challenging the thinking of reknowned Conductors, but hey, why not ... we're the enthusiasts who are paying to buy these things !
Well, satisfaction is in the mind of the listener ... heh heh .

Chris

[2bluechris]

Symphony #1

This is exactly what puzzled me about S#1. The last movement was one 15 minute plateau of a climax that left me a bit bewildered and in the end, desensitized, on the Kubelik performance I have.

Hi wkhanna,

I'll have to hear that performance again to address your point, though I am not doubting the effect you received, and such does happen in various performances of various works, usually it seems intent by Conductors and/or Soloists to push a particular thinking they had about the music there, or trying to make it do something that was seemingly not in the Composer's thinking.
But remember, this does get done in Jazz with improvisations based on well known pieces of music, as you will have heard, but of course one can hear there also the success or failure of the improvisation, or at least whether it is relevant inany way to one's own life experience.

Reading your earlier Post about the Classical works and Composers you have recorded music of, I ask , do you have anything for the period in between Beethoven and Mahler ?
In particular, do you have any of Brahms' four Symphonies ?
Getting to know those, and in sequence, can assist one's mind to accomodate the Mahler experience.
No, Brahms is neither Beethoven nor Mahler, but he is relevant interim, and very good music when at his best, if given suitable performances of course.
I'll recommend some recordings if you would like ?

Chris

[wkhanna]

Hi wkhanna,

I'll have to hear that performance again to address your point, though I am not doubting the effect you received, and such does happen in various performances of various works, usually it seems intent by Conductors and/or Soloists to push a particular thinking they had about the music there, or trying to make it do something that was seemingly not in the Composer's thinking.

I remember reading that Mahler was known for his obsessive notation on just how each instrument and note was to be played, down to what weight of mallet the percussionist should use. If this is the case with S#1, then I would suppose that most performances and conductors would honor the composer's intent, and what I hear in the last movement of S#1 is what Mahler intended. However, I only have one CD of this work, and must rely on the wealth of knowledge which you gracious gentleman can impart to this novice. My assumption from reading, liner notes and reviews, is that 'young' Mahler intended the work as I interpreted it and was simply 'sowing his oats' as young composer might be expected to, the irresistible urge to wield the power of a full orchestra for the first time having been undeniably overwhelming, and given his frame of mind and hormonal state at the time that composition was penned.

But remember, this does get done in Jazz with improvisations based on well known pieces of music, as you will have heard, but of course one can hear there also the success or failure of the improvisation, or at least whether it is relevant inany way to one's own life experience.

How true. And while I do like nearly all types of music, and respect every type of music, I do not necessarily claim to like all of any one type of music. In a less wordy tone, there is such a thing as 'not so good' Jazz, in my humble opinion.

Reading your earlier Post about the Classical works and Composers you have recorded music of, I ask , do you have anything for the period in between Beethoven and Mahler ?
In particular, do you have any of Brahms' four Symphonies ?
Getting to know those, and in sequence, can assist one's mind to accomodate the Mahler experience.
No, Brahms is neither Beethoven nor Mahler, but he is relevant interim, and very good music when at his best, if given suitable performances of course.
I'll recommend some recordings if you would like ?
Chris

The closest thing I have to Mahler would be maybe some of the Gershwin symphonies. No Brahms, and V little Bach (no symph - just some chamber music works) Actually, I should probably get some Bach symphs, I heard his S#1 was reminiscent of Beethoven, and might be a good place to start.

Bill

[2bluechris]

Which Bach ?

Before I proceed, I feel compelled to reassert what you must already know, that I am 'casual' listener when it comes to classical. Jazz makes up about 70% of my collection, 10% rock/New Age and the rest is classical. Oh yes, I have my Beethoven 1-9, actually three 9's, and his piano concerto's. And there is my Mozart collection, including Don Giovanni, to go with my Aida and my Caruso and Pavarotti favorites and a few other operas. Then there are the other rookie requisites like the 'Four Seasons' and so on. Some Bach chamber music, (not a big fan of his symphonies), Wagner, Pachelbel and some works by Itzhak Pearlman, Yo-Yo, etc., etc. Pretty much standard fare in a 50 -70 CD collection of clasical music.

.

"Some Bach chamber music, (not a big fan of his symphonies), ..."

Which Bach, or Bachs, have you been listening to ?

There is the famous Johann Sebastian Bach, who is the father of several sons who also composed.
J.S. Bach is the one usually referred to as Bach, and his sons are usually referred to by their initials before the Bach eg:-
J.C. Bach ; C.P.E. Bach ; W.F. Bach , and I think there was another whose initials I have forgotten.

I am resisting the temptation to include P.D.Q. Bach in this list because Moderator Danbry39 may get angry with me for misleading you, and might delete my Post or ban me from future posting.
{Keith, if you don't know who P.D.Q. Bach is, then maybe I should be the Moderator, or pbarach should be !}

Famous father Bach composed music in many Formats, but no Symphonies, thus the Bach symphonies which you are not a big fan of could be those of one of his sons - ? - and if so, then I agree with you !
I doubt that any of his sons composed anything as good as the best of their father's works, and whilst some of their compositions are reasonably pleasant listening to some listeners, I think none of them could be considered great works ... other readers, please list some if you disagree ...

Given some of the Composers you list of works for human voices, I recommend you try to get to listen to {father} Bach's Mass in b minor - this is a Great work.
Hear John Eliot Gardiner's recording on Philips, for close to the authentic Bach period sound, and enjoyable to listen to - it is not merely Scholastic .
Or, if you prefer the bigger German sound of Wagner, then hear Jochum's recording of the b minor Mass, originally for HMV and now on 2CD set released by EMI - budget priced !

This, along with a few of the Composers from the Rennaissance period of History, and Handel's "Messiah" will set you up for following how the later Choral with some solo Vocal parts works were developed.

Chris.

[2bluechris]

Finale of Mahler's 1st symph.

This is exactly what puzzled me about S#1. The last movement was one 15 minute plateau of a climax that left me a bit bewildered and in the end, desensitized, on the Kubelik performance I have.

Well, this symphony was given the name "The Titan", {by ?} , thus what you are hearing may be intended as the depiction of such creature.

Given what you say in your next Post about what you had read about how Mahler notated his works, then perhaps this is always what we will get to some degree, but the degree will vary because rather than follow exactly what-ever may have been Mahler's instructions, Conductors will interpret those in a manner they prefer, or at least in a manner they understand.

If you want to investigate what could be close to the written score performed, then try to get to hear recordings by the earliest recorded Mahler specialists :- Mengelberg ; Mitropoulos ; Walter ,
but don't buy these, try to find in Libraries, especially at Tertiary Institutions, and simply listen to the Finale.
The sound quality will be poor, particually for the Mengerberg I think,{I haven't heard it}.
Alternately, listen to the Finale in Horenstein's recording - he will be fairly literal there I think.

Chris.

[2bluechris]

Brahms !

and V little Bach (no symph - just some chamber music works) Actually, I should probably get some Bach symphs, I heard his S#1 was reminiscent of Beethoven, and might be a good place to start.

Bill

You will have read my Post above about Bach and Symphonies.

What you have - "heard his S#1 was reminiscent of Beethoven" - was almost certainly intended to have been about Brahms' 1st symphony, {despite who made the mistake and who told you}, and yes, it is "a good place to start" - wait till you hear it !
Would you like some recommendations ?

Chris

[wkhanna]

What you have - "heard his S#1 was reminiscent of Beethoven" - was almost certainly intended to have been about Brahms' 1st symphony, {despite who made the mistake and who told you}, and yes, it is "a good place to start" - wait till you hear it !

Oops, My bad, it was me who was told Brahms, but whose brain heard Bach!

Would you like some recommendations ?

Most certainly!
However I would like to start with S#1, and then, maybe start a new thread for the the topic of Brahms.
Yikes! I still have Mahler 5,7 & 9 to get, too. So much Good music, so little time!

[wkhanna]

I am resisting the temptation to include P.D.Q. Bach in this list......

How ironic, as I just this past weekend passed his marker in the cemetery.
It read:
Here lies a man with sundry flaws
And numerous Sins upon his head;
We buried him today because
As far as we can tell, he's dead.

[Danbry39]

"Some Bach chamber music, (not a big fan of his symphonies), ..."



I am resisting the temptation to include P.D.Q. Bach in this list because Moderator Danbry39 may get angry with me for misleading you, and might delete my Post or ban me from future posting.
{Keith, if you don't know who P.D.Q. Bach is, then maybe I should be the Moderator, or pbarach should be !}

Oh, yeah, FEAR ME!!! Moreso, FEAR my cooking as I fear my own memories of my cooking. Keith, the Fearsome, is how I will be known across the land from this time onwards. :lol:

Well, I used to be a moderator, but no longer. Never thought of banning anyone. Don't think I even had that power. Compared to other boards, this one is pretty friendly anyway.

Also, of course I know who P.D.Q. Bach is/was. I'm pretty old, well, uh, I mean mature you know.

[2bluechris]

I wonder ... , and Brahms symphonies.

How ironic, as I just this past weekend passed his marker in the cemetery.
It read:
Here lies a man with sundry flaws
And numerous Sins upon his head;
We buried him today because
As far as we can tell, he's dead.

I think I may be about to walk into a set-up here, but whatever, I may learn something !

PDQ Bach seems to be very much alive and well, as his web-site is still up and there is no mention there-on of his passing, but there is mention of his upcoming Concerts, so unless every-one in family and management is in shock and mourning after a sudden death ...

I think you have known about him, and I was being cautious in case you didn't know of him.

On Brahms, you will have seen I have started a new thread, part inspired by a set of recordings I bought recently, and I have added some alternate recommendations for you to consider.
If you have the opportunity, hear what-ever before you buy.

Chris

[2bluechris]

I agree ! , and whose at that price ?

Oh, by the way, when you get to Sibelius, I’d wholeheartedly recommend you find a very good copy of Tapiola.

The one good thing about things like Sibelius and Shostakovich’s string quartets is that excellent renditions can be had for much less than getting Mahler. I think my two string quartet cycles cost $10-15 each.

.

And I wholeheartedly agree with you, and thank you for recommending.
I do have, and like a lot, a recording of "Tapiola".
Its in a set of Sibelius' titled orchestral works played by Boston SO, conducted by Colin Davis.
I've forgotten some of the works included, but "Tapiola" is by far my favorite - a style of music, and performance of, that I like a lot - the sounds and atmosphere created.

$10 - $15 Shostakovich string quartet cycles !
Whose did you buy, the Rubio Quartet ? ,
or was one of the reference cycles on Special price ?
{Beethoven Quartet; Borodin Quartet; Fitzwilliam Q'tet; Shostakovich Q'tet}.

Chris.

[Danbry39]

$10 - $15 Shostakovich string quartet cycles !
Whose did you buy, the Rubio Quartet ? ,
or was one of the reference cycles on Special price ?
{Beethoven Quartet; Borodin Quartet; Fitzwilliam Q'tet; Shostakovich Q'tet}.

Chris.

Have several of the Borodin, but the complete sets I own are the Fitzwilliam and Shostakovich. The Fitzwiliam set was $11 from Ebay. I can't recall the cost of the Shostakovich Quartet set, but recall it was something under $20 from Berkshire.

[2bluechris]

off Topic of Thread, but follows Keith's Post

I was thinking you meant prices for New sets were $10 <--> $15 , not 2nd hand/used sets or unwanteds as from ebay.
Ebay and 2nd hand copies are not always available, nor always in good condition, thus I think quoting prices should be for new stock from {reputable} retailers when recommending to interested Thread readers.

I am pleased you got the Fitzwilliams' set cheap though, and hopefully in good condition.

If the Shostakovich Quartet's complete set can be bought new for under $20 , that is very good value, and I'll start looking as I've only heard a few from theirs to date.

If you like these quartets a lot and intend to buy other sets, then if you see the Danel Quartet's set for a good price it is not too much risk.
I have it.
It is on the European "Fuga Libra" label.
They recorded the cycle over a period of several years, thus plenty of preparation and rehearsal, and to good effect as they seem fine and well considered performances to me.
I haven't had it long enough to have done detailed comparisons with the Fitzwilliams and others, but they are certainly better performances than the less Shostakovich experienced groups I've heard some of the quartets recordings from, and they render the 7th quartet as interesting music, which the Fitzwilliams don't, in my opinion, though the F'williams top the Danels in #5 and #6 {both are great music I think}.
I also prefer the Danels vastly to the Emerson Quartet with the 8th quartet.
{I don't like the way the Emersons play these works in general}

Anyway, by the time you are ready to start a Shost. quartets' thread I may have done some detailed comparisons, but usually I don't study these works, but simply play one CD from one set when I think I need to hear such music, and then I play a second CD from if time.

So no more about them here - I'm in no hurry, as too much other current to listen to, but I simply wanted to mention the Danels to you, and any other interested readers.

uhmm , your Cooking , I can't smell it from here, thus no Fear of that here, though I think you may have given up cooking ...

Chris