Mahler's Symphonies #5 and #10, and Rudolph Barshai.

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  • 2bluechris
    Member
    • Oct 2005
    • 77

    Mahler's Symphonies #5 and #10, and Rudolph Barshai.

    Brilliant Classics - 92205 - a 2CD set of Mahler's Symphonies #5 and #10 performed by the Junge Deutsche Philharmonie conducted by Rudolph Barshai.

    The recording of #5 is a re-issue of its first release on the Laurel label in 1999. This recording was apparently much discussed on the internet following a very favourable review in Musicweb International.
    Other than the Adagio movement -{4th movement}- I had not previously liked the majority of the music of the 5th symph. , however, this recording has certainly changed my mind !
    I don't have the vocabulary to adequately describe its effect, though Barshai and the Junge Deutsche Phil. -who asked him to conduct them for this recording - have achieved something exceptional in its performance, and particually in the 2nd and 3rd movements which captured and held my attention, which neither of the two well reviewed other reordings I'd listened through achieved.
    Lovers of Mahler's 5th, and interested listeners struggling with this work, do hear this recording !

    The version of the 10th is a "reconstruction and instrumentation after Mahler's sketches by Rudolph Barshai".

    Some readers will know that Mahler had completed only the Adagio 1st movement for his Symphony #10.
    He left 4 stave sketches for the remainder of the work - those being the basic melodies with harmonies in 4 part vertical form, if I've understood correctly. Next one would arrange these parts for the various instruments of the orchestra.
    This had been previously done by at least four scholars, and of those Deryck Cooke's is the best known and apparently the best regarded, though a few conductors would only perform the Mahler completed 1st movement.
    Simon Rattle recorded Mahler/Cooke with the Bournemouth Symph. Orch. for EMI years ago, and this version was received very well.
    Rattle had made a few changes to Cooke's after some consultation with Berthold Goldschmidt, a composer who had advised Cooke also.

    Rudolph Barshai was a Viola player of considerable experience in string quartets in Russia during the Soviet era, and later arranged five of Shostakovich's string quartets for Chamber Orchestra performance.
    He has conducted recordings of these and many other works, including the Premiere of Shostakovich's 14th Symphony in the USSR.
    Barshai's orchestration of Mahler's sketches is somewhat richer than Cooke's, though it is not overdone, as was apparently the case with Clinton Carpenter's version - much critisized for that.

    I have listened to Rattle/Bournemouth through twice, but really only liked the final movement. The three other Cooke/Rattle orchestrated movements are quite well written, but a little too sparse. Some of Mahler's own completed works have sparse sections, thus I'm not suggesting orchestration for #10 should be dense or lush, as apparently how Carpenter orchestrated, however ...
    Barshai seems to have achieved the optimum balance between the extremes one can apparently find in Mahler's works -{I do not know all Mahler's works}. He has certainly achieved somthing which has made an impact on me !
    Regardless of the validity or otherwise of how he orchestrated, this performance by Barshai and Junge Deutsche is impressive and captivating, and makes sense as a whole.
    There is continuity from the Mahler completed 1st movement through the other four movements to the end.
    I particully like the music of the 1st ; 3rd ; 5th movements, though all five movements are performed well, and none of it irritates or annoys me. -{but hey, I'm not a Mahler expert!}.
    I have not heard Rattle's re-recording with the Berlin Phil., nor Chailly's of the Cooke orchestration, nor Slatkin's of one of the other orchestrations, thus am not dismissing what-ever merits these may have, however, Barshai's is so convincing as a piece of music that it is certainly worth hearing at least twice by a sceptic !

    For readers not familiar with Mahler symphonies, #10 is in a different style of music to #5 in Mahler's own completed parts and in his indications in his sketches.
    Some Scholars consider the first four of Mahler's symphonies as a group, and then from #5 onwards as a development of a different style, and these sound to me as ongoing development - changes; not repeating himself too much; though there are similarities between parts of #8 and #2 in how the full choir is used.
    Last edited by 2bluechris; 04 August 2007, 13:13 Saturday. Reason: Up-date to the Title of the post.
  • Kal Rubinson
    Super Senior Member
    • Mar 2006
    • 2109

    #2
    I still prefer Ormandy's recording of the Cooke version to others of that version.

    Kal
    Kal Rubinson
    _______________________________
    "Music in the Round"
    Senior Contributing Editor, Stereophile
    http://forum.stereophile.com/category/music-round

    Comment

    • pbarach
      Member
      • Feb 2007
      • 67

      #3
      Originally posted by Kal Rubinson
      I still prefer Ormandy's recording of the Cooke version to others of that version.

      Kal
      Ormandy did the first of the 3 Cooke orchestrations of M10. I like the Rattle/Berlin recording of the third Cooke version; nothing against Ormandy's, it's just a matter of preference. One thing I especially like about it is the beautifully played flute solo in the last movement.

      Comment

      • Danbry39
        Moderator Emeritus
        • Sep 2002
        • 1584

        #4
        Chris, don't know if you're aware of the survey of Mahler releases on Music Web. I think you'd be quite interested in the comments on Barshai's No. 5. You'll have to scroll down, but it is EXTREMELY positive. I do know that the guy who did the survey used to post on Good Music Guide, but I'm not sure if he still does.

        Anyway, here's the LINK.

        I only have Saraste and Bernstein for the fifth, so as this one seems mighty tempting, I'm going to put it on my wish list.
        Keith

        Comment

        • wkhanna
          Grumpy Old Super Moderator Emeritus
          • Jan 2006
          • 5673

          #5
          I am going to order symphonies #1 & #3 this week, but being such popular works, the number of recorded performances is prolific to say the least. I normally would favor German or Russian orchestras for first time purchases of works that I will probably have multiples of, along with Cleveland or Seattle WA recordings.

          But if someone would be so kind as to recommend a specific recording for a first time purchase, I would very grateful.
          _


          Bill

          Practicing Curmudgeon & Audio Snob
          ....just an "ON" switch, Please!

          FinleyAudio

          Comment

          • Danbry39
            Moderator Emeritus
            • Sep 2002
            • 1584

            #6
            Originally posted by wkhanna
            I am going to order symphonies #1 & #3 this week, but being such popular works, the number of recorded performances is prolific to say the least. I normally would favor German or Russian orchestras for first time purchases of works that I will probably have multiples of, along with Cleveland or Seattle WA recordings.

            But if someone would be so kind as to recommend a specific recording for a first time purchase, I would very grateful.

            Keeping in mind that part of the joy of Mahler is how varied the approaches are to each of his symphonies and that listeners are all over the board in their reactions to individual recordings, I feel pretty safe in recommending:

            No. 1: Kubelik leading the Bavarian Radio Orchestra. His recordings of the Mahler No. 1 are pretty much lauded. He has both in-studio and live recordings. I have the studio one, but often have heard people say they prefer the live version.

            No. 3: Chailly . This is also available in SACD, if that's a consideration. Either way, the sound quality is superb, as is the performance, imho.

            Both of the conductor's names will link you to reviews at Classics Today, not that their reviews are always the gospel.
            Keith

            Comment

            • wkhanna
              Grumpy Old Super Moderator Emeritus
              • Jan 2006
              • 5673

              #7
              Thank you, Keith! ;x(
              I just placed my order thru ArkivMusic. ~ $35 for both.....
              Symph#1 is a two disc set and 1/2 of what Deepdiscount wanted!
              Symph #3 is an SACD!

              I remeber reading something about Arkiv in a recent issue of Stereophile, and saw a link to their site when I was checking your links.

              I should be an 'expert' on Mahler by next week! :rofl:
              Last edited by wkhanna; 18 July 2007, 17:09 Wednesday. Reason: I really should use Keith's given name
              _


              Bill

              Practicing Curmudgeon & Audio Snob
              ....just an "ON" switch, Please!

              FinleyAudio

              Comment

              • Danbry39
                Moderator Emeritus
                • Sep 2002
                • 1584

                #8
                Oh, you know it's my pleasure.

                To enhance your enjoyment, I'm going to cut and paste a brief piece of background information on each symphony so that you can more fully see Mahler's intent. I noticed that you have his No. 7 on your list. This background will be especially vital during that symphony, or at least it was to me. I couldn't grasp or enjoy it at all until then. I'll also have a strong recommendation when the time arrives. Both are from the same author:

                First symphony no. 3. I'm listening to the Chailly now and I can't imagine you not being bowled over by its grandeur.

                An excerpt from Tony Duggan

                Symphony No.3



                The Third Symphony is Mahler’s hymn to the natural world and his longest work. It was largely composed in the summer of 1895 after an exhausting and troubling period that pitched him into feverish creative activity. Bruno Walter visited him at that time and as Mahler met him off the ferry Walter looked up at the spectacular alpine vistas around him only to be told: "No use looking up there, that’s all been composed by me." Mahler was inspired by the grandeur around him at the very deepest level of feeling and also by visions of Pan and Dionysus. In fact by a sense of every natural creative force in the universe infusing him into "one great hymn to the glory of every aspect of creation", or, as Deryck Cooke put it: "a concept of existence in its totality."

                To deliver a convincing performance of the Third I believe the conductor must do two things before anything else. Firstly, in spite of the fact that the work falls into Mahler's "anthologising" strand, along with Das Klagende Lied, the Second and Eighth Symphonies, the overriding structural imperative linking the six movements must be a pattern of ascending steps based loosely on the evolutionary ladder within broadly-based Pantheistic cosmology. In these terms the six movements are:

                1] Inorganic nature summoned into life by Pan, characterised as summer after winter
                2] Plant and vegetable life
                3] Animal life
                4] Human life represented as spiritual darkness
                5] Heavenly life represented as childish innocence which, when combined with 5, brings
                6] God expressed as, and through, Love.

                Mahler’s original titles for these movements were:
                1] "Summer Marches in"
                2] "What the Meadow Flowers tell me
                3] "What the Creatures of the Forest Tell Me"
                4] "What Night Tells Me"
                5] "What the Morning Bells Tell Me"
                6] "What God Tells Me"
                Keith

                Comment

                • Danbry39
                  Moderator Emeritus
                  • Sep 2002
                  • 1584

                  #9
                  Here's an excerpt from Duggan's introduction to Mahler's first as well as a LINK to his symphony by symphony account for Mahler:

                  Mahler's first four symphonies are often classed as his "Wunderhorn" group owing to thematic and emotional links with settings of songs from the anthology of German folk poems "Des Knaben Wunderhorn" ("Youth's Magic Horn"). Strictly speaking, the First Symphony doesn't fulfil this criterion for inclusion as a "Wunderhorn" symphony as its thematic and emotional links are with Mahler's first song cycle, "Lieder Eines Fahrenden Gesellen" ("Songs of a Wayfarer"), of which both words and music were written by him under the influence of first love and rejection. But it's a useful classification because the Wayfarer songs and the First Symphony do inhabit the same thought and sound world of symphonies 2,3, and 4.

                  The First sets out a richly representative store of Mahler's characteristic styles especially as seen through the prism of this first period in his creative life and tells us a great deal about the man at that time. It also turns a key that admits us through the door to what is to come making the First the ideal work with which to begin exploration of Mahler's life and work. At the start there is a seven octave A in the strings depicting the mood of early morning in high Summer; in the second movement a clumsy peasant dance establishes a love of dance which will later grow to an obsession; in the third a weird canon on the tune "Frere Jacques" interspersed with cafe band music in Mahler's sleaziest vein illustrates his habit of juxtaposing the gross with the sublime; in the last movement there is music intent on outdoing itself in world-storming excess - noisy triumph exploding with youthful bravado out of self-absorbed emotional reflection.
                  Keith

                  Comment

                  • Danbry39
                    Moderator Emeritus
                    • Sep 2002
                    • 1584

                    #10
                    Here's something interesting:

                    Stumbled onto this listing of 100 recordings for one to begin a classical music collection and Barshai's No. 5 was recognized.

                    So, good call, Chris.

                    LINK
                    Keith

                    Comment

                    • wkhanna
                      Grumpy Old Super Moderator Emeritus
                      • Jan 2006
                      • 5673

                      #11
                      Thanks for the link to MusicWeb, Keith.
                      I have probably spent 3 hrs reading and learning. Very helpful!
                      Arkiv's site is very informative, too. I like that they rate the performance and disc SQ on all their CD's.

                      That top 100 list is a great reference.

                      Bill
                      _


                      Bill

                      Practicing Curmudgeon & Audio Snob
                      ....just an "ON" switch, Please!

                      FinleyAudio

                      Comment

                      • 2bluechris
                        Member
                        • Oct 2005
                        • 77

                        #12
                        2 useful Reference books

                        Originally posted by Danbry39
                        Keeping in mind that part of the joy of Mahler is how varied the approaches are to each of his symphonies and that listeners are all over the board in their reactions to individual recordings,


                        Both of the conductor's names will link you to reviews at Classics Today, not that their reviews are always the gospel.

                        wkhanna,
                        I very much agree with Keith on both his points - in above edit of his post -.
                        There is quite wide differences of opinions and debates between listeners, including Reviewers, about relative merits of various Conductors' recordings of Mahler's symphonies - more than for those of most other Composers.
                        You will find several degrees of agreement and of disagreement by other equally knowledgeable reviewers to Tony Duggan and David Hurwitz{Classics Today}.

                        As you are in the USA, I very much recommend you buy a copy of :-
                        Third Ear
                        Classical Music: The Listener's Companion
                        Edited by Alexander J. Moran
                        Published by Backbeat Books

                        Third Ear have a series of books, each on a different style of music.
                        Their Classical Music edition is fairly recent, and includes critical discussion of most of the available, and some currently unavailable, CDs of most of the Works of an enormous number of Composers.
                        The section on Mahler is quite comprehensive.

                        I have looked at many buyers' guide type books to Classical Music, and that one is the best I have seen.

                        Next best is the British published :-
                        Penguin Guide To Compact Discs and DVDs - is the Title of the 2005/6 edition.
                        The new 2008 edition is titled:-
                        The Penguin Guide To Recorded Classical Music
                        Edited by March, Greenfield and Layton, who have edited all editions for many years.
                        I have not seen the 2008 ed. yet, and it may not be out yet, but only advertising of it.
                        The 2007 ed. is only a Yearbook, and about half the size - not as comprehensive, so don't buy it, but have a look in any large Libraries near you as there may be copies of current and/or past editions.

                        Both Third Ear and Penguin Guide are very thick paperback books.
                        I see Amazon USA has a special price for buying both together of the Third Ear and the 2005/6 edition of Penguin Guide, and that ed. will have only the most recent few new CD releases not in it.
                        To find that particular page on Amazon's web-site do a Search for :-
                        Classical Music: Third Ear , or, Classical Music:Third Ear -that is unspaced after the :
                        I don't know how that Smile got in there - I can't get rid of it , thus you will have to guess what I have tried to type !
                        {Amazon sometimes have book titles' phrases swapped around,wrt to what is printed on the book}.

                        You can buy on opinion of 2 reviewers agreeing, but sometimes you will be disappointed - I am.
                        Now I research as many reviews as possible if I am not able to hear some of the CD before I buy.
                        Some reviewers I am wary of as they seem inexperienced, and some do not know sufficient of the alternate recordings to be able to justify their claims, and a few do not seem to know the particular music well enough.
                        After years of this I also recognise a few whose tastes are quite different to mine.

                        The way the performances are discussed in Third Ear are more informative than any others of aspects that are not merely Opinion, and those in Penguin Guide achieve some degree of similar.

                        Approach that Top 100 list with caution, and research the particular recordings before you buy.
                        There are some very good versions listed, but also some quite ordinary versions, and versions that are in-part less than the best.
                        A first time-buyer of a work does not have to buy an ordinary version, or less, to get to know the work.
                        It is safe enough to buy a good version as there is usually at least one such for every major work, and merely leave the great-but-difficult-to-understand-all-of versions for follow-up purchase.

                        Having said all that !
                        I agree with Keith for Mahler's 1st - Kubelik/Bavarian Radio Symph. , though I only know the Deutsche Grammophon recording and not the live recording.
                        For 3rd Symph. I would have recommended Abbado's Vienna Philharmonic recording - his first one for Deutsche Grammophon, or Haitink's famous 1966 Concergebouw version on Philips.
                        I would have endeavoured to hear Chailly before purchase, however as Keith is so enthusiastic about his, than it certainly will not be a bad version !

                        Chris.

                        Comment

                        • Danbry39
                          Moderator Emeritus
                          • Sep 2002
                          • 1584

                          #13
                          Well, now you guys have done it!!!

                          For the last few days, I've been listening to tons of Mahler.

                          I ordered the Barshai No. 5, so I should know how well it and I interact in a week of so.

                          I've been listening to my Mahler No. 5's today (at least the ones I'm aware of having) and know why I didn't get taken by this symphony for so long. My first, and only for a long while, version was the Saraste, one that has its fair share of fans, but it sounds kind of cold to me. Now, I have the Chailly and Bernstein with the Weiner. I am very hit and miss with Bernstein and Mahler. For instance, I have never enjoyed his No. 9 with the Berlin, feeling it was over emotive and he needed to take a step back. Yet, others just love this interpretation. This is why listening is so personal. My detachment from the piece in no way discredits the love of others for the particular interpretation. Its just my subjective taste at the point I'm at in my life.

                          Anyway, back to No. 5. Again, I like the Chailly best, especially his treatment of the Adagietto, where he just achieves a sublime, breathtakingly beautiful sound. This would be followed by the Bernstein, then, by a relatively large margin, the Saraste.

                          What I'm most interested in, as far as the Barshai, is his quickened tempo on the fourth movement. There has been some debate in this regard, with people arguing that a slower fourth more suits the ears of modern listeners, while others respond that they feel a quickened tempo is truer to Mahler's intent.

                          I've tried to imaging the more rapidly paced playing of the movement in my mind and I'm very much anticipating giving it a listen. In any regard, the $5 for a "like new" copy from Amazon is a bargain, especially considering the inclusion of his tenth.

                          Chris, thanks for the tip. I'm humbled by your knowledge of music. I may know more than the average bear regarding classical, but I can tell you're several steps ahead of my game in this regard. Please keep on sharing and I'll keep on digesting.
                          Keith

                          Comment

                          • wkhanna
                            Grumpy Old Super Moderator Emeritus
                            • Jan 2006
                            • 5673

                            #14
                            I have only had a chance to listen to my Symph#1 once, in more of an ambient fashion (my 6 yo grandson is spending two weeks with us!). I can say the SQ of this CD is V good, and the study guide you guys have provided me has greatly enhanced my appreciation of the work. But I will need some ‘quality time’ with my system to make any further critiques. What I can say is, this is a journey I am looking forward to.
                            _


                            Bill

                            Practicing Curmudgeon & Audio Snob
                            ....just an "ON" switch, Please!

                            FinleyAudio

                            Comment

                            • 2bluechris
                              Member
                              • Oct 2005
                              • 77

                              #15
                              Thankyou !

                              Thankyou to Kal Rubinson, as I did not know Eugene Ormandy had recorded #10.
                              Given Ormandy's dedication to music, and his reputed excellent conducting of his orchestra {I have only one Ormandy/Philadelphia recording, thus can't claim to know their general standard, other than what I had read}, I can believe it is a worthwhile version, thus hope to hear it.

                              Thankyou to pbarach for your recommendation of Rattle/Berlin. As its a symphony Rattle has lived with for many years I can believe he has developed his understanding of it and given a performance that exceeds his previous recording.
                              One point though, when Rattle was first to conduct the BPO he wanted to perform the Mahler 10, but the orchestra apparently refused, thus it was only when he became their chief conductor - years later - that he was able to get them to play it.
                              I wonder on this point, how he convinced them, and how did he get them to play it so well as you seem to be impressed by ?

                              Any comment on this pbarach ?

                              Chris.

                              Comment

                              • 2bluechris
                                Member
                                • Oct 2005
                                • 77

                                #16
                                Tony Duggan's reviews

                                Keith, I had stumbled upon Tony Duggan's review of the Mahler/Barshai #10 when I was searching the net to try to find out something about this Barshai orcestration.
                                Basically I am interested in Barshai as I have his first recordings of the initial four of Shostakovich string quartets he arranged for Chamber Orcestra, and I like those a lot -{he later wrote an arrangement for the 1st quartet, which I have not heard. He recorded it with a Japanese orchestra, and the CD may only have Japanese release, though I haven't searched recently to see who may be selling it}.
                                I also have Barshai's conducting of Shostakovich's 13th Symph. on a single CD on the Regis label. It is the same performance as that in the Brilliant Classics box set - Regis released some from that set under license.
                                It is an excellent performance.
                                Thus all the above had me thinking to hear what Barshai could do with Mahler's work that simply needed orchestrating.

                                Getting a for me listenable version of #5 with it is added bonus !

                                I had not looked further, and seen the link to Duggan's Mahler symph's survey, thus thankyou very much for drawing my attention to it !
                                I have only read some parts of it so far. It seems well done, and he is obviously an enthusiast.
                                Given some of his preferences, this adds to what I wrote in my post above to wkhanna about the diversity of opinions about performances of Mahler's symphonies, though as he discusses the interpretive points and styles of each of the conductors to a reasonable degree it is a useful survey to have.

                                I am less enthusiastic about the 100 recordings list, and these type of lists usually annoy me - for the reason I wrote in the post to wkhanna.
                                Even if such list was specified as recommendations for budget and mid-priced CDs, I'd have simply ommitted a few of the well known works, as why spend mid-price on something in the case where it is significantly less than the best when for not too much more money one can buy a better performance.
                                There are several works I like a lot which I have heard versions so mediocre that if such were all I had heard I would never have wanted to own a recording of the work.
                                Your experience with Mahler's 5th and Saraste seems to be one such !

                                I'll post a few more comments about Mahler recordings, including on your point about tempo of the adagietto movement as soon as I have time.

                                Chris.

                                Comment

                                • pbarach
                                  Member
                                  • Feb 2007
                                  • 67

                                  #17
                                  Originally posted by 2bluechris
                                  One point though, when Rattle was first to conduct the BPO he wanted to perform the Mahler 10, but the orchestra apparently refused, thus it was only when he became their chief conductor - years later - that he was able to get them to play it.
                                  I wonder on this point, how he convinced them, and how did he get them to play it so well as you seem to be impressed by ?
                                  Chris.
                                  I can't comment on that, I have no information about it. However, I did hear Rattle conduct the Mahler 10 in Cleveland years ago, and I have an off-the-air cassette recording of the performance. It was much better than his first recording of the M10--Cleveland plays better than his English orchestra. However, apparently he and the orchestra didn't get along and he hasn't been back since.

                                  Comment

                                  • 2bluechris
                                    Member
                                    • Oct 2005
                                    • 77

                                    #18
                                    Thankyou for your comments pbarach !
                                    Its a pity that after a good performance the Cleveland Orch. and Rattle couldn't find some common ground to build on later, though perhaps the only common ground was their agreement to what-ever compromise enabled them to give the good performance, in which case at least they are professional.
                                    Anyway, your report about the concert confirms what I had speculated about Rattle likely having developed an understanding of the 10th Symphony.
                                    I am thus now further interested to hear his Berlin recording, and will endeavour to do so !

                                    Indeed the Cleveland Orch. are very good players - I have heard their recordings of Dvorak's symphonies 7 ; 8 ; 9 with Dohnanyi conducting.
                                    Very good playing and ensemble cohesion, thiough not totally idiomatic Dvorak, however that is a matter for Dohnanyi, and a topic for another thread ...

                                    Chris

                                    Comment

                                    • pbarach
                                      Member
                                      • Feb 2007
                                      • 67

                                      #19
                                      Originally posted by 2bluechris
                                      Indeed the Cleveland Orch. are very good players - I have heard their recordings of Dvorak's symphonies 7 ; 8 ; 9 with Dohnanyi conducting.
                                      Very good playing and ensemble cohesion, thiough not totally idiomatic Dvorak, however that is a matter for Dohnanyi, and a topic for another thread ...

                                      Chris
                                      Try their M4 or (from live recordings) M9 or Das Lied von der Erde with Szell; or to hear idiomatic Dvorak, their recordings of symphonies 8 and 9 with Szell. Dohnanyi recorded Mahler 1-4-5-9 (maybe 6, too?) with Cleveland, all of it well played; but I found it all dull.

                                      Comment

                                      • 2bluechris
                                        Member
                                        • Oct 2005
                                        • 77

                                        #20
                                        Originally posted by Danbry39
                                        , and selected EDIT of by Chris :-

                                        Anyway, back to No. 5. Again, I like the Chailly best, especially his treatment of the Adagietto, where he just achieves a sublime, breathtakingly beautiful sound. This would be followed by the Bernstein, then, by a relatively large margin, the Saraste.

                                        What I'm most interested in, as far as the Barshai, is his quickened tempo on the fourth movement. There has been some debate in this regard, with people arguing that a slower fourth more suits the ears of modern listeners, while others respond that they feel a quickened tempo is truer to Mahler's intent.


                                        Chris, thanks for the tip. I'm humbled by your knowledge of music. I may know more than the average bear regarding classical, but I can tell you're several steps ahead of my game in this regard. Please keep on sharing and I'll keep on digesting.
                                        This matter of tempo and style of performance for the Adagietto seems to have arisen following the use of that movement in the film "Death In Venice", where it is apparently played slowly, and I presume in a style in sympathy with the title of the film, or the application of the music to what-ever in the film.
                                        I don't know the story the film is based on, nor have I heard the soundtrack recording ...
                                        Orchestra and Conductor ?


                                        Apparently as result of film goers having heard it performed in such manner and liked it, they subsequently expected to hear it performed in the same manner within performances of the Symphony, thus perhaps the Mahler Tradition has Evolved ! , or at least has been Adapted to our times ...

                                        Any comments on this by anyone else reading the thread ?


                                        Barshai apparently conducts it in the manner he believes is Mahler's intent.
                                        Other than when he conducts works that he has written arrangements for, he is said to be a literal performer of composers' intents.
                                        As such, perhaps his conducting of the end of Shostakovich's 4th Symph. faster than I like {and than how some others conduct it} is what is indicated in the score , though there may be an alternate edition of that score, which I won't know till I can find a copy of Rozhdestvensky's Ministry Of Culture , etc ... Orch. recording, as it has been said Rozhd. had access to an original, Shostakovich himself authorised, copy of the score.
                                        I'll post on that in my Shost. #4 thread when I find out more.

                                        Back to Barshai with the Mahler 5 adagietto - I quite like it as played in this recording - it has continuity with, and makes sense in its place amidst, the other movements, thus I'm happy with it as such.
                                        I have heard a slower, and "beautiful" version of that movement, but the other movements were for me unlistenable ! I forget whose recording that was, but it may have been the famous Barbirolli one, or the 2nd Bernstein {Deutsche Gr'phon}.
                                        Anyway, you will have a copy soon Keith, thus after you have had time to digest it I am interested to hear your comments about.
                                        I will endeavour to hear Chailly's recording so as to have another perspective on it.

                                        uhmm ... my knowledge of music, well, to borrow your quote Keith, "I may know more than the average bear regarding classical, but" it has been a lot of research and listening, and originally the learning and subsequent knowledge, along with the fine mind for discrimination, etc ... of my mother, given to me over half a lifetime, that what-ever I have is developed from.
                                        And she in part from her mother, and various people she met during her early years.
                                        There is the continuing propagation from all the originals, through the later assimilaters, etc ... as you will know, thus I will be staying humble ! {I hope}.

                                        Chris.

                                        Comment

                                        • 2bluechris
                                          Member
                                          • Oct 2005
                                          • 77

                                          #21
                                          Hah, pbarach, you have jolted my memory !
                                          Indeed I do have at least one, on an LP, of the Cleveland Orch. conducted by Szell - Dvorak #7 - and I have Szell conducting probably the Cleveland with someone I have forgotten {of course}, playing Brahms 1st Piano Concerto, which I do remember had convincing Orchestral performance, as I played it for a past neighbour after I had aligned the cartridge in his turntable not so long ago.
                                          Though I had forgotten today, I have in my mind somewhere to watch for other recordings by Szell/Cleveland, thus thankyou for your recommendations !
                                          I suppose Dohnanyi's specialties are other composers works, and perhaps with other orchestras ... ?

                                          Chris

                                          Comment

                                          • pbarach
                                            Member
                                            • Feb 2007
                                            • 67

                                            #22
                                            Originally posted by 2bluechris
                                            Hah, pbarach, you have jolted my memory !
                                            Indeed I do have at least one, on an LP, of the Cleveland Orch. conducted by Szell - Dvorak #7 - and I have Szell conducting probably the Cleveland with someone I have forgotten {of course}, playing Brahms 1st Piano Concerto, which I do remember had convincing Orchestral performance, as I played it for a past neighbour after I had aligned the cartridge in his turntable not so long ago.
                                            Though I had forgotten today, I have in my mind somewhere to watch for other recordings by Szell/Cleveland, thus thankyou for your recommendations !
                                            I suppose Dohnanyi's specialties are other composers works, and perhaps with other orchestras ... ?

                                            Chris
                                            Szell/Cleveland recorded the Brahms #1 and #2 concertos with Fleisher and also Rudolf Serkin--both are excellent performances. I prefer Fleisher, but that's just my personal preference. Other great Szell recordings with Cleveland include the Schumann, Brahms, and Beethoven symphonies, Beethoven concerti with Fleisher, a couple of good discs of Wagner, Prokofiev Symphony 5 and Lt. Kije Suite, Kodaly Hary Janos Suite, many fine Mozart piano concerto recordings with Casadesus (with the orchestra falsely called "Columbia Symphony"), Mozart Sinfonia Concertante and numerous symphonies, about 8-10 Haydn symphony recordings, R. Strauss tone poems... I could go on. If you like Szell's style, you will like most anything he recorded.
                                            Dohnanyi has many fine recordings, with Cleveland, Vienna Philharmonic, a number of other orchestras. I just don't think his recorded Mahler is his best work.

                                            Comment

                                            • Danbry39
                                              Moderator Emeritus
                                              • Sep 2002
                                              • 1584

                                              #23
                                              Hey, I got to see the Cleveland a couple of years ago as well when they visited the Mondavi Center.

                                              I have to be brief here as we have a foreign exchange student from Japan visiting, but I did get to listen to the Barshai three times, but, unfortunately only once while I could focus through the whole thing. Actually, I was pretty bowled over as evidenced by the fact that I played the opening movement three times in a row upon receipt of the package.

                                              No one need fear that the playing might be sub par of non-involving due to the fact that it's a youth orchestra. I kept saying to myself that this is certainly heartfelt and not a clinical presentation whatsoever.

                                              As far as the fourth movement's more rapid pacing, it is very different from my other recordings, but, in context with the other movements, Barshai executes his plan wonderfully. I haven't compared it directly with Chailly yet, but both have their place and both bring about a different emotive state. Some might prefer one over the other, but I like having a couple of different readings.

                                              I feel pretty set on the fifth now. I'm not one that needs to have every recording made, although I'm pretty tempted at times. The one that is still problematic for me is the ninth. I know I have at least three interpretations and, as I said before, the Bernstein/Berlin just isn't my cup of tea...like he's taking a firehose and washing me down with emotion. Obviously, just my ears and taste, but I just ordered a Haitink that's been very well received over time and will see if that's the one that floats my boat. Was tempted by the Ancerl gold edition as he's one of my favorite conductors.

                                              Later...
                                              Keith

                                              Comment

                                              • Danbry39
                                                Moderator Emeritus
                                                • Sep 2002
                                                • 1584

                                                #24
                                                Oh well, ordered the Ancerl as well. Imagine he'll be very different from the Haitink and possibly closer to the Bernstein. Still, he can be otherworldly great!!!
                                                Keith

                                                Comment

                                                • Danbry39
                                                  Moderator Emeritus
                                                  • Sep 2002
                                                  • 1584

                                                  #25
                                                  Bill,

                                                  How's your listening coming? Are you liking Mahler?
                                                  Keith

                                                  Comment

                                                  • 2bluechris
                                                    Member
                                                    • Oct 2005
                                                    • 77

                                                    #26
                                                    Originally posted by Danbry39
                                                    I have to be brief here as we have a foreign exchange student from Japan visiting, but I did get to listen to the Barshai three times, but, unfortunately only once while I could focus through the whole thing. Actually, I was pretty bowled over as evidenced by the fact that I played the opening movement three times in a row upon receipt of the package.

                                                    ..

                                                    !!! , well with an initial impression like that ...

                                                    Do post some more later when you have had time to digest this version, or done some comparative listening to Chailly's.

                                                    Also for #10, which I think is quite outstanding, though as it is a differnt type of music it will probably be better to consider it after a different listening session than one with #5.
                                                    Thus, after you have had some time to digest it I am most interested to read your thoughts about it, and no, I don't expect you to neccessarily agree with me about it.

                                                    Chris.

                                                    Comment

                                                    • 2bluechris
                                                      Member
                                                      • Oct 2005
                                                      • 77

                                                      #27
                                                      Look for the new thread for Mahler's other symphonies.

                                                      I started this thread to draw interested persons' attention to the Barshai/Junge Deutsche recordings of Mahler's 5th and Barshai's arrangement of Mahler's sketches for his 10th, and for any discussion about those, including with reference to other recordings, or simply mention of other liked recordings of these two works.

                                                      It seems there is interest from forum members to discuss others of Mahler's symphonies, thus I will start a Thread for that purpose.

                                                      I would like to keep this current thread simply for discussion of #5 and #10, basically to be able to keep these things in some sort of order, and to be able to find recommendations for recordings more easily, etc ...

                                                      Thus, wkhanna, when you get back to us, please post about your impressions of symphonies 1 and 3 in the new thread, which you will recognise by its Title.
                                                      I am certainly interested to read what you think about those versions, and your impressions of the works in general, as seems Keith is also.

                                                      Similarly, Keith we can discuss #9 there.

                                                      More comments about #5 and #10 are most welcome still in this-here thread,
                                                      thankyou,

                                                      Chris.

                                                      Comment

                                                      • Danbry39
                                                        Moderator Emeritus
                                                        • Sep 2002
                                                        • 1584

                                                        #28
                                                        Originally posted by 2bluechris

                                                        Thus, after you have had some time to digest it I am most interested to read your thoughts about it, and no, I don't expect you to neccessarily agree with me about it.

                                                        Chris.
                                                        Truth be told, Chris, I've tried and have been unable to come to any sort of definitive conclusion.

                                                        This morning, first thing I did was turn on the system and try to devise a good plan of attack. Should I listen and compare movement by movement, thus losing some of the overall scheme of each conductor/orchestra, or listen to each as a whole. Well, I ended up doing a little of both...even jotting down observations (lots) as I did so.

                                                        In the end, at this stage at least, I can't pick one. Both, to me, are wonderful. And, the strengths of one don't indicate a weakness in the other. As an example, I could mention wonderful sound quality of the Chailly, but the sonics on the Barshai are strong as well.

                                                        I do have to applaud the outstanding playing by the Concertgebouw. They have to be one of the great Mahler Orchestras and the brass and woodwinds here are extraordinarily good, especially so in the Scherzo. To balance this, the Junge Deutsche Philharmonie plays with so much heart.

                                                        I do appreciate that both performances have passion, are engaging, and are well executed plans, without being overwrought emotionally.

                                                        I still prefer the Chilly adagietto, although many disagree with me here. I just find it sublime, whereas others might opine that it is excessively relaxed. I also have concluded that its not the tempo, but the execution that truly counts. On the other hand, I think Barshai does a finer job of holding in the reins and allowing the first two movements to build to peak emotional moments.

                                                        So, in the end, and I don't want to wimp out here, I can't reach a decision. Honestly, when I was playing the Barshai, I'd think, "Okay, this is the one" at certain segments and the same thing would happen with Chailly. Both have their proponents (deservedly) in my eyes.
                                                        Keith

                                                        Comment

                                                        • 2bluechris
                                                          Member
                                                          • Oct 2005
                                                          • 77

                                                          #29
                                                          5 and 5 and 10, but no Mathematics.

                                                          Keith, there's no "wimp out", because its not a competition where a decision has to be made for one or the other. Indeed you have made a decision - that you like both - I am in a similar position with some alternate recordings of some works, though not with any Mahler to date, but maybe if I hear these Chailly's that you like ...
                                                          I am almost in that position with #7, but we'll discuss that in the other Thread when wkhanna asks for recommendations {its in his list of four to hear}.
                                                          Where some listeners will want a decision is regarding which is closest to the Score - what Mahler wrote, or intended {if the Score is some-what ambiguous or nor sufficiently specific, and some scores are!}.
                                                          Such can be researched, but for most Forum members, I think a satisfying to listen to version is likely the priority ... ahem , you have two it seems ...

                                                          Any comments from other readers of this, about faithful to the Score and discernable intent of the Composer for this work ?

                                                          Hey, what about the Barshai arrangement of #10 ?
                                                          But when you have time to have assimilated it - you have been listening to a lot of Mahler's others recently, thus perhaps better to leave the 10th till all those 9ths have found suitable places in your mind !

                                                          Chris
                                                          Last edited by 2bluechris; 09 August 2007, 11:59 Thursday.

                                                          Comment

                                                          • Danbry39
                                                            Moderator Emeritus
                                                            • Sep 2002
                                                            • 1584

                                                            #30
                                                            Yeah, it'll probably take a bit of time before I get to the 10. I did listen to it casually on the way to Yosemite the other day, but with all the distractions going on in the car, it was, in reality, background music.
                                                            Keith

                                                            Comment

                                                            • 2bluechris
                                                              Member
                                                              • Oct 2005
                                                              • 77

                                                              #31
                                                              on Keith's comparative Review of the 5th's

                                                              I was in a hurry yesterday and forgot to add part of what I had intended, and that is :-

                                                              I do like, and appreciate your comparative review of the two recordings Keith, and particually how you have highlighted the various strengths of each recording.
                                                              This review is worthy of publication in a decent quality magazine, and it is well ahead of the overly brief and somewhat useless reviews published in the almost condescending to the general listener type of magazine.

                                                              I particually like, and very much agree with your point :-

                                                              "... its not the tempo, but the execution that truly counts."

                                                              Chris
                                                              Last edited by 2bluechris; 09 August 2007, 11:06 Thursday.

                                                              Comment

                                                              • Danbry39
                                                                Moderator Emeritus
                                                                • Sep 2002
                                                                • 1584

                                                                #32
                                                                Aw, shucks, Chris. That was nice of you to say. Much appreciated.
                                                                Keith

                                                                Comment

                                                                • 2bluechris
                                                                  Member
                                                                  • Oct 2005
                                                                  • 77

                                                                  #33
                                                                  the imagination wanders ...

                                                                  Originally posted by Danbry39
                                                                  Yeah, it'll probably take a bit of time before I get to the 10. I did listen to it casually on the way to Yosemite the other day, but with all the distractions going on in the car, it was, in reality, background music.
                                                                  I have not been to Yosemite, and I presume you are refering to the famous National Park {?} , but I have seen various photos of parts of it, and now it has come into my mind that the Barshai arrangement of Mahler's 10th could be the soundtrack music for a night spent camping in that park {or staying in a Cabin there, or what-ever one does when stays overnight there, ... if ?}.

                                                                  I read there is a Mount Mahler, yes named after the composer, in one of the other National Parks, thus this may be where you and your good wife could go next ... uhm , perhaps as a pilgrimage ... you could take your Gary Bertini box-set, but not to sacrifice as a burnt offering {unless it is found to be less than expected}, though you could conflagerate the less satisfactory Mahler CDs you have, and perhaps Mahler may approve ... in spirit !

                                                                  Chris

                                                                  Comment

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