a revolution at 33 & 1/3

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  • wkhanna
    Grumpy Old Super Moderator Emeritus
    • Jan 2006
    • 5673

    a revolution at 33 & 1/3

    This is a quote from a recent article in the The Guardian by John Harris


    The antidote to rampant capitalism? 33⅓ revolutions per minute

    Sales of tablets (the digital kind) are 1,000% up, but a quiet rebellion is growing as people rediscover the joy of vinyl records
    Sales of vinyl records last year were 44% up on the figures for 2010.

    If you're fortunate enough to be somewhere smattered with Christmas presents, and also in the company of a certain kind of music freak, look around and marvel. As well as the stuff of digital consumerism (more of which in a moment), their haul of gifts may include a few objects that were meant to have been thrown into the dustbin of history a couple of decades ago. You'll know them if you see them: big, coin-like things encased in glossy cardboard holders, which reproduce sound thanks to a technology that was invented towards the end of the 19th century.

    For thousands of people, vinyl records have returned as the acme of listening pleasure. The relevant numbers are counted in the tens of thousands rather than the music industry's customary millions, but one thing seems clear: though the business writ large is in a dire state, increasing quantities of records are being bought – both secondhand and in souped-up, remastered editions. Witness the season's must-have item for Beatles fans, who either saved up all year or are toasting the end of the 50p rate of tax: their beautifully presented vinyl catalogue in a deluxe giant box, which goes for around £300.

    We await conclusive British figures for 2012, but last year there was a quantum leap in sales of new vinyl albums, which were 44% up on the figures for 2010. Anecdotal evidence suggests the consumers responsible are not just hard-bitten types – men, usually – of a certain age, but much younger people. And the phenomenon extends across the industrialised world: the same pattern is evident in the UK, the US, Australia, Germany – and even cash-strapped Spain.

    This piece was written at a desk around 2ft away from a turntable I now use every day. When the grimmer aspects of daily life – deadlines, flooding, Danny Alexander – start to get a bit much, I reach for a record, and take 40 minutes or so to give it my undivided attention. So as to be kept in its original condition, it must be carefully played as its creators intended, and also divided by the lovely pause for reflection in between sides one and two. The sound quality is way better than anything digital; there is an obvious Proustian thrill to the deep click from the stylus that begins the listening experience.

    Now, compare all this to the easy delights of music either streamed or downloaded. No one was ever going to miss the charmless compact disc, and when the iPod era ended with the arrival of the streaming service Spotify, the infinite jukebox of millions of dreams was made real.

    Here, though, is the problem: as I distractedly jump from song to song, am I actually listening, or merely hearing? And if most of us now listen to music in a state of twitchy impatience, what happens when that feeds back into the art itself? We already know the answer: modern pop has little time for delayed gratification, so intros must be quickened, choruses brought forward, and the most banal buttons pushed.

    All this stokes a quiet anti-digital rebellion, and reflects an impulse that is growing, not just in the culture, but in everyday life.

    When the vinyl renaissance first became clear, there were allusions to the Slow Food movement, and Carl Honoré's 2004 book In Praise of Slow. By way of a warning about what happens when such advice is ignored, then – eventually – came Nicholas Carr's The Shallows, the text that bemoaned the online world's "cacophony of stimuli", and "cursory reading, hurried and distracted thinking, and superficial learning".

    Not surprisingly, then, there is rising interest in the notion of living offline, or at least reducing one's immersion in all that noise and chatter. An American tech-journalist called Paul Miller, for example, is halfway through a year cut adrift, one early report of which found him in the midst of an evening when "he had an unusually long conversation with his roommate and" – get this – "listened to some records". The account went on: "They stayed up talking until 3am, he said, and 'I was completely in the moment and having a good time'."

    Now, compare that mode of existence to habits that this Christmas will have taken to new heights. Never mind austerity: some retailers claim that sales of tablets – digital ones, that is, rather than uppers, downers and antidepressants, though I wouldn't be surprised if there was a correlation – are up 1,000% on last year. All, then, is frantic: both the pace at which yesterday's must-have device must be replaced by today's supposedly vast improvement, and the insane tempo at which everything is intended to be used. Not for nothing, perhaps, did one marketing agency recently try to rebrand Christmas Day 2012 as "tablet Tuesday", a sacred occasion when we "redeem digital vouchers to fill up new devices with games, music and video". Hosanna in excelsis, and all that.


    It doesn't matter if the profiteers responsible wear saggy casual rather than tophats: this, surely, is capitalism taken to such an extreme that the only thing to do is reach for Guy Debord's prophetic text The Society of the Spectacle and boggle at how, 45 years later, every word has come true: "Consumers are filled with religious fervour for the sovereign freedom of commodities whose use has become an end in itself … The proliferation of faddish gadgets reflects the fact that as the mass of commodities becomes increasingly absurd, absurdity itself becomes a commodity … All this is useful for only one purpose: producing habitual submission."

    I know, I know: a mere vinyl habit probably isn't any kind of cure for the modern malaise. Indeed, if you're paying what some people earn in a week for a set of Beatles albums, you may have more to do with the problem than the solution. Then again, as a quiet act of refusal, there still seems something unshakeably symbolic about sticking with a supposedly outmoded technology, spending time focusing on one thing rather than hundreds. And, better still, making one's choices in isolation from the ever-watchful eye of digital marketing machines, so that algorithms cannot calculate what to sell you next – if you want to follow Adele with Captain Beefheart and his Magic Band, that's up to you.

    In that spirit, I'll start Boxing Day hopeful that I might carve out a couple of hours to listen to a few of my vinyl Christmas presents.

    Elsewhere, enjoyment might be measured in kilobytes per second; here, a kind of stubborn solace comes via black plastic, rotating at a subversively glacial 33⅓ rpm.
    Last edited by wkhanna; 07 January 2013, 22:11 Monday. Reason: added author's name
    _


    Bill

    Practicing Curmudgeon & Audio Snob
    ....just an "ON" switch, Please!

    FinleyAudio
  • madmac
    Moderator Emeritus
    • Aug 2010
    • 3122

    #2
    There was something special about spinning a record, the sleeve pictures and the whole process. In those days, Albums were meant to be a story or journey if you wish, meant to be played with the songs 'in order'. A good example of this would be Billy Joel's "52nd Street".

    All that is true until the early 80's when after listening to thousands of hours of music on vinyl, I bought my first CD player and was completely blown away at how good it sounded. I have not looked back since. I do not want to start another debate about vinyl vs digital however. I am certain that a higher end turntables hooked up to a high end sound system can produce excellent results. However, I think digital brought more decent sound to the average poor listener who would never pay $10K+ for a sound system. And also remember this.....Vinyl today is being sold at a very inflated price so there's marketing going on there too......not just with digital!. Albums today are not made with a story or journey in mind and typically contain way more content than the 40 min record could deliver. On one hand, that's sad because I love to listen to the older albums that deliver that journey!. However, the way albums are made today, I honestly think you need the ability to 'cherry pick' your way around the tracks to play songs in the order you wish to hear them (possibly to create your own journey?). Unlike stated above, I sit down and listen to music just like the way people sit down and watch TV. Most people do not do that and are preoccupied as the music plays. I think that's sad. I suppose that doesn't matter with most pop music going out nowadays because in most cases, it's pretty much garbage anyway!. On a final note, I would not take anti-depressants unless you were absolutely suicidal!!. I was on them awhile back and they destroyed me!!. My advice is to stay away from them!.
    Dan Madden :T

    Comment

    • wkhanna
      Grumpy Old Super Moderator Emeritus
      • Jan 2006
      • 5673

      #3
      Originally posted by madmac
      I do not want to start another debate about vinyl vs digital however.........
      ?????????????????????????????????????????????????? ??????????????????????

      Originally posted by madmac
      I am certain that a higher end turntables hooked up to a high end sound system can produce excellent results. However, I think digital brought more decent sound to the average poor listener who would never pay $10K+ for a sound system.
      We have had this dicussion ad nauseum. And I still contend a $2k vinyl rig will equal if not outperform any digital rig you care to assemble with the same $2k.

      Originally posted by madmac
      And also remember this.....Vinyl today is being sold at a very inflated price so there's marketing going on there too......not just with digital!
      Adjusted for inflation, the cost of the average LP today is essentially the same as what you paid for it in the 1970's

      Originally posted by madmac
      Albums today are not made with a story or journey in mind and typically contain way more content than the 40 min record could deliver. On one hand, that's sad because I love to listen to the older albums that deliver that journey!. However, the way albums are made today, I honestly think you need the ability to 'cherry pick' your way around the tracks to play songs in the order you wish to hear them (possibly to create your own journey?)
      So you are saying today's music does not deserve to be put on vinyl?
      Now that IS sad :W
      _


      Bill

      Practicing Curmudgeon & Audio Snob
      ....just an "ON" switch, Please!

      FinleyAudio

      Comment

      • JonMarsh
        Mad Max Moderator
        • Aug 2000
        • 15259

        #4
        Though I'm a digital ding dong, I used to be a heavy duty vinyl guy, too, and I mostly agree with Bill's assertions. The majority of digital $2K playback is, as the Brits might say, shyte in comparison to a good 2K turntable. HOWEVER, that comparison overlooks the point that you need a really nice phono preamp also to get that performance. I spent a lot of time in the 70's designing, building, and testing phono preamps before coming up with a configuration I really felt good about sonically- the result looked like a Mark Levinson preamp, but sounded much better, due to a two stage architecture with both active and passive EQ elements (depending on which was most appropriate where- that was part of the secret sauce).

        So, to be fair, it's really more like comparing a 2K phono plus a 2K preamp against either a 2K or 4K digital solution- here the options open up a little, but off the shelf players still don't cut it well, IMO. No sense comparing a $2K DAC like the NAD M51 which needs a 2K transport or music server for the end to end result (though the M51 does replace the preamp and volume control, too, so you see how the difficulties of comparison multiply. Add in something like a Metric Halo LIO-8, and the apples to pomegranates comparison becomes even more unreasonable!


        The market growth of vinyl has been very interesting to watch, and sometimes is annoying to me, as I'm thinking, "Hey, release that on SACD, too, while you're at it! (not because I love SACD players (can't think of a really top flight one below the dCS stacks), but because ripping SACD is the backbone of files for my music server setup.

        The REAL issue here, IMO, is some focus on quality music sold at fair prices from quality musicians, rather than the current mass market music business (spent a little time lately listening to a local "mainstream" station, and gawd, that's dreadful!).

        Lest we be too luddite about our media and how we acquire it, a big reason for the growth of vinyl is online etailers like Muisc Direct, Elusive Disk, and Acoustic Sounds. Because, you mostly can't buy diddly locally!

        A lot of brick and mortar chains complain about pricing from online retailers, but it's having selection that seals the deal for me- I buy online so much because I HAVE NO REASONABLE LOCAL OPTION! And that's living in the SF Bay area. BTW, I don't consider driving 50 miles in the Bay area traffic a reasonable option for local purchase- 25-30 miles, yes. :W

        YMMV, blah blah, just buy some good music and enjoy it!
        the AudioWorx
        Natalie P
        M8ta
        Modula Neo DCC
        Modula MT XE
        Modula Xtreme
        Isiris
        Wavecor Ardent

        SMJ
        Minerva Monitor
        Calliope
        Ardent D

        In Development...
        Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
        Obi-Wan
        Saint-Saëns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
        Modula PWB
        Calliope CC Supreme
        Natalie P Ultra
        Natalie P Supreme
        Janus BP1 Sub


        Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
        Just ask Mr. Ohm....

        Comment

        • madmac
          Moderator Emeritus
          • Aug 2010
          • 3122

          #5
          Originally posted by wkhanna
          ?????????????????????????????????????????????????? ??????????????????????

          What?? I said I did not want to start a vinyl / Digital debate?. We've done that already!.



          We have had this dicussion ad nauseum. And I still contend a $2k vinyl rig will equal if not outperform any digital rig you care to assemble with the same $2k.


          Nope!


          Adjusted for inflation, the cost of the average LP today is essentially the same as what you paid for it in the 1970's

          LP's here in Canada are selling for $29 bucks??? The CD counterpart is $10-14????


          So you are saying today's music does not deserve to be put on vinyl?
          Now that IS sad :W
          Not saying that but what I am saying is that you CANNOT put todays stuff on vinyl because it's too long......unless you want to put it on 2 LP's which will set you out about $60 bucks!!.

          Music is very subjective and personal sonically. I've have sat on a beach with a transistor radio and have liked what I was hearing. Back in the days when I had a $2K system and bought my first CD player, I had Supertramp's "Breakfast in America" on vinyl and had listened to it 100+ times in that format. When I hooked up my new CD player and played the same album on CD, the difference was night and day to my ears. I couldn't believe what I was hearing!. That was my experience and I'm sticking to it!! :W
          Dan Madden :T

          Comment

          • Hdale85
            Moderator Emeritus
            • Jan 2006
            • 16075

            #6
            Music has gotten shorter over time........the average song used to be like 5-6 min and some being even much longer, now days its like 3 mins.

            Comment

            • mjb
              Super Senior Member
              • Mar 2005
              • 1483

              #7
              Perhaps its pure nostalgia, but Abbey Road on vinyl is outstanding. Its a story album, has a mixture of track lengths, is 42 years old (I have an original), and still sounds absolutely superb. The magic can not be replaced by double clicking a filename - but thats what kids grow up with today. They will perhaps experience the same type of nostalgia for their digital music in another 40 years.
              - Mike

              Main System:
              B&W 802D, HTM2D, SCMS
              Classé SSP-800, CA-2200, CA-5100

              Comment

              • wkhanna
                Grumpy Old Super Moderator Emeritus
                • Jan 2006
                • 5673

                #8
                I’ll tell you what guys........

                I will get on my knees, swear allegiance to all things of the digital domain as I wonder the earth & proselytize the Nyquist–Shannon sampling theorem for the rest of my natural life.

                Please, oh Please.......
                Just get me the schematic of Jon’s phono-pre circuit!!!!
                _


                Bill

                Practicing Curmudgeon & Audio Snob
                ....just an "ON" switch, Please!

                FinleyAudio

                Comment

                • JonMarsh
                  Mad Max Moderator
                  • Aug 2000
                  • 15259

                  #9
                  The Ayre phono preamp is quite good in current technology, using a different amplifying techniques but a similar architecture.




                  Go listen to one of these if you have the chance sometime. Or check out the "Critical Ear" review by Shane.

                  The key is doing the HF roll off in passive, without the lead zero gain stop of traditional RIAA feedback networks, and having a really, REALLY low noise front end (BTW, you can't buy the JFETs I used anymore, either...), and a very, very optimized discrete opamp architecture. These days, there actually are IC's in the similar performance ball park, so it would be fun to come up with a good DIY implementation with the same architecture, and low noise shunt regulators for power... something to think about when I retire? :W Of course, for some IC's will never do compared to a first class discrete implementation, especially one with zero feedback- but you might be surprised at what you can hear or can't hear the difference in, with the right architecture.
                  the AudioWorx
                  Natalie P
                  M8ta
                  Modula Neo DCC
                  Modula MT XE
                  Modula Xtreme
                  Isiris
                  Wavecor Ardent

                  SMJ
                  Minerva Monitor
                  Calliope
                  Ardent D

                  In Development...
                  Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
                  Obi-Wan
                  Saint-Saëns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
                  Modula PWB
                  Calliope CC Supreme
                  Natalie P Ultra
                  Natalie P Supreme
                  Janus BP1 Sub


                  Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                  Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                  Comment

                  • wkhanna
                    Grumpy Old Super Moderator Emeritus
                    • Jan 2006
                    • 5673

                    #10
                    Wow Jon! ;x(

                    I just hope you can retire sooner rather than later, as much for our sake as yours :W

                    A while back I remember reading a review by Michael Fremer of a mega$ phono pre that contained every RIAA curve ever used along with the ability to digitally create & store your own curves. A simple evolution of what you basically started.
                    _


                    Bill

                    Practicing Curmudgeon & Audio Snob
                    ....just an "ON" switch, Please!

                    FinleyAudio

                    Comment

                    • mb225
                      Senior Member
                      • Jan 2009
                      • 131

                      #11
                      Originally posted by madmac
                      Not saying that but what I am saying is that you CANNOT put todays stuff on vinyl because it's too long......unless you want to put it on 2 LP's which will set you out about $60 bucks!!.
                      This is just not true...

                      I recently got Dave Matthews Big Whiskey and the GrooGrux King on vinyl. It was released in 2009 (newer music) had to be put on 2 LPs and I paid $13 (with free shipping) brand new from Amazon.


                      I find that most 2-LP albums are less than $20. :T

                      Another one I got recently:
                      Florence + the Machine, Ceremonials (released 2011, 2 LPs). $16

                      Comment

                      • mb225
                        Senior Member
                        • Jan 2009
                        • 131

                        #12
                        Originally posted by mb225
                        I recently got Dave Matthews Big Whiskey and the GrooGrux King on vinyl. It was released in 2009 (newer music) had to be put on 2 LPs and I paid $13 (with free shipping) brand new from Amazon.
                        Also, the vinyl (for DMB Big Whiskey) sounds much better than the CD. I think it has something to do with the loudness wars. They usually have a different master for vinyl and CD. They push the volumes up way too high on the CD so it plays more on the radio/iPod/etc. My guess is, the people that master the vinyl aren't getting forced to "up" the volume by the recording label since vinyl is not used as a media for broadcast/sales.

                        I don't own Ceremonials on CD so I cannot compare.

                        Comment

                        • madmac
                          Moderator Emeritus
                          • Aug 2010
                          • 3122

                          #13
                          Originally posted by mb225
                          Also, the vinyl (for DMB Big Whiskey) sounds much better than the CD. I think it has something to do with the loudness wars. They usually have a different master for vinyl and CD. They push the volumes up way too high on the CD so it plays more on the radio/iPod/etc. My guess is, the people that master the vinyl aren't getting forced to "up" the volume by the recording label since vinyl is not used as a media for broadcast/sales.

                          I don't own Ceremonials on CD so I cannot compare.

                          You know, it's funny that you say that about the CD volume thing because, I recently bought a headphone amp and I find the sonic performance via the headphones is better if I turn down the CD player volume and put the headphone amp up to 50%. I get better 'punch' and transparency from the headphones that way. :W
                          Dan Madden :T

                          Comment

                          • Hdale85
                            Moderator Emeritus
                            • Jan 2006
                            • 16075

                            #14
                            The problem with many CD mastering is the volume, not because it makes it louder, more because it completely ruins the dynamic range available.

                            Comment

                            • madmac
                              Moderator Emeritus
                              • Aug 2010
                              • 3122

                              #15
                              Originally posted by Hdale85
                              The problem with many CD mastering is the volume, not because it makes it louder, more because it completely ruins the dynamic range available.
                              Huh?? I don't get it!. CD's have more dynamic range than vinyl as measured.
                              Dan Madden :T

                              Comment

                              • Hdale85
                                Moderator Emeritus
                                • Jan 2006
                                • 16075

                                #16
                                Not when they crank up the volume during mastering. Look at older CD's like DSOTM or what not and the volume is really low, but the dynamic range is incredible those deep notes are so clean and precise, the highs are great as well and everywhere between it has a very vast dynamic range. But you look at newer albums and they crank up the volume during mastering and the dynamic range just isn't even close.

                                Comment

                                • mb225
                                  Senior Member
                                  • Jan 2009
                                  • 131

                                  #17
                                  Originally posted by madmac
                                  You know, it's funny that you say that about the CD volume thing because, I recently bought a headphone amp and I find the sonic performance via the headphones is better if I turn down the CD player volume and put the headphone amp up to 50%. I get better 'punch' and transparency from the headphones that way. :W
                                  Here is the dynamic range for the album I used as an example. Take a look at the difference between Vinyl and CD:

                                  Attached Files

                                  Comment

                                  • madmac
                                    Moderator Emeritus
                                    • Aug 2010
                                    • 3122

                                    #18
                                    Originally posted by mb225
                                    Here is the dynamic range for the album I used as an example. Take a look at the difference between Vinyl and CD:


                                    The software says at the top that it's 'Unofficial' so......therefore....it is !! :W :W
                                    Dan Madden :T

                                    Comment

                                    • mb225
                                      Senior Member
                                      • Jan 2009
                                      • 131

                                      #19
                                      Originally posted by madmac
                                      The software says at the top that it's 'Unofficial' so......therefore....it is !! :W :W
                                      HA!!! That is true, it does say 'unofficial'. But until someone proves it wrong, it's good enough for me.

                                      Comment

                                      • rdram
                                        Member
                                        • Mar 2005
                                        • 98

                                        #20
                                        Bill,

                                        Reading your post has prompted me to do something I've been thinking about for quite some time.

                                        To digress... I haven't spun vinyl since the late 80's or early 90's. Guess it would have depended on when I had enough CD's in my collection that I could finally put an end to the drudgery of LP's. At the time CD's were a blessing. You didn't have to give them a bath, they didn't need dusting, special jackets, alignment tools, tracking force guages, anti-static pistols, stylus cleaners, squishy platter mats, weighted pucks, isolation platforms...and god help you if your turntable was to close to a speaker.

                                        But, I have to admit that for some time now, I have been thinking about taking the plunge once again. I still have hundreds of LP's in various closets, the basement, garage...probably most in less than pristine condition. Still have quite a few MFSL 1/2 speed masters that haven't been heard in decades. So I did it. Ordered what would be considered an entry level TT and phono preamp. They arrived today and I have to admit, I'm pretty excited and can't wait to get home and set it up.

                                        So thanks... I think. Only time will tell if this is a blessing or a curse, and I'll have to start giving all my old LP's a bath in a Spin-Clean, buy special platter mats, isolation platforms, anti-static guns, cartridge upgrades, upgrade the pre amp, tone arm, new TT.... arrggghhhh.

                                        Rich

                                        Comment

                                        • wkhanna
                                          Grumpy Old Super Moderator Emeritus
                                          • Jan 2006
                                          • 5673

                                          #21
                                          Hey Rich!

                                          Welcome to the madness!
                                          Actually, welcome to reality. Welcome back to the soothing, therapeutic world of analog.

                                          I would highly encourage you to purchase some type of cleaning equipment, especially for those 1/2 speed masters. Do no play them until they have been properly cleaned. One spin on those with built-up grunge from years of storage may cause some irreversible damage you may regret. I think the Spin Clean you mentioned would be a wise investment. Heck, when I got started I used those square cotton make-up removal pads from the drug store with a cleaning solution I made with a few drops of Dawn & distilled water. Don’t worry about $500 vacuum cleaning machines until you are addicted far beyond redemption. Trust me, it will not take long.

                                          I hope your rig was properly adjusted when you got it, or at least you found set-up to be a task not too difficult. Please do not hesitate to post questions or concerns. If I can not answer any question with 100% confidence, I always go to those experts I know for the correct information.

                                          Please keep us posted on your experience.
                                          _


                                          Bill

                                          Practicing Curmudgeon & Audio Snob
                                          ....just an "ON" switch, Please!

                                          FinleyAudio

                                          Comment

                                          • PewterTA
                                            Moderator
                                            • Nov 2004
                                            • 2901

                                            #22
                                            Well... not to jump on the band wagon...but heck... what's the fun if you don't...

                                            Since the dynamic range database isn't accurate at all (right!?)... I figured I'd check my own copies of the DMB - BWATGK

                                            For me the Vinyl is a lot better than the CD. You really notice how much they crank up the volume on the CD and you don't have the "punch" in the music. Over all too, I think the Vinyl sounds more realistic with the instruments and vocals.

                                            Dynamic range of the CD.


                                            Dynamic Range of the Vinyl.
                                            Digital Audio makes me Happy.
                                            -Dan

                                            Comment

                                            • Hdale85
                                              Moderator Emeritus
                                              • Jan 2006
                                              • 16075

                                              #23
                                              CD's can be quite good, it's just this whole loudness fad is crushing the performance.

                                              Dan, what software are you running there?

                                              Comment

                                              • wkhanna
                                                Grumpy Old Super Moderator Emeritus
                                                • Jan 2006
                                                • 5673

                                                #24
                                                We use Foobar to manage & play our computer audio source. The screenshot is Foobar which has an app built into to it that will analyze the file & compute the dynamic range.
                                                _


                                                Bill

                                                Practicing Curmudgeon & Audio Snob
                                                ....just an "ON" switch, Please!

                                                FinleyAudio

                                                Comment

                                                • rdram
                                                  Member
                                                  • Mar 2005
                                                  • 98

                                                  #25
                                                  See...it's stared already. Monday will order a Spin Clean! But something's going on the platter tomorrow. I'll have to make do with my old Discwasher pad...only thing I have left.

                                                  Comment

                                                  • wkhanna
                                                    Grumpy Old Super Moderator Emeritus
                                                    • Jan 2006
                                                    • 5673

                                                    #26
                                                    :roflmao:

                                                    But how can you wait till tomorrow?
                                                    _


                                                    Bill

                                                    Practicing Curmudgeon & Audio Snob
                                                    ....just an "ON" switch, Please!

                                                    FinleyAudio

                                                    Comment

                                                    • rdram
                                                      Member
                                                      • Mar 2005
                                                      • 98

                                                      #27
                                                      OK...then it's off to CVS for some make up removal pads. Distilled water and Dawn I have. What did you dry them with? What ratio of Dawn to De-I water?

                                                      Comment

                                                      • Hdale85
                                                        Moderator Emeritus
                                                        • Jan 2006
                                                        • 16075

                                                        #28
                                                        Hmmm that doesn't look like my Foobar lol.

                                                        Comment

                                                        • wkhanna
                                                          Grumpy Old Super Moderator Emeritus
                                                          • Jan 2006
                                                          • 5673

                                                          #29
                                                          Originally posted by rdram
                                                          OK...then it's off to CVS for some make up removal pads. Distilled water and Dawn I have. What did you dry them with? What ratio of Dawn to De-I water?
                                                          Hey Rich.

                                                          Make sure to get the cotton pads, no synthetic substitute allowed!

                                                          For a homemade detergent on the fly, a tea spoon of dawn to a quart of distilled or DI water (I use Aquafina too) should work fine as a surfactant to lift off dirt & organic materials. Some will use a second solution of 90% or better isopropyl alcohol in similar proportion to remove films that surfactants do not effectively clean. The debate continues ad naseum as to whether alcohol is detrimental over time to vinyl. I really don't have any resolve on the matter either way.

                                                          A rinse with distilled or other 'clean' water can then be dried off with micro fiber towels found fairly cheap at your local auto parts store. The guys who spend many thousands of $ on super custom paint jobs for their classics & hot rods know these towels will not harm the precious finish on their coaches. Nor will they do malice to your prized vinyl.

                                                          A link for some additional info on cleaning.....

                                                          And one for general black pie info....
                                                          _


                                                          Bill

                                                          Practicing Curmudgeon & Audio Snob
                                                          ....just an "ON" switch, Please!

                                                          FinleyAudio

                                                          Comment

                                                          • wkhanna
                                                            Grumpy Old Super Moderator Emeritus
                                                            • Jan 2006
                                                            • 5673

                                                            #30
                                                            Originally posted by Hdale85
                                                            Hmmm that doesn't look like my Foobar lol.
                                                            Dan has customized the skin to our personal preference.
                                                            Try that with iTunes or JRiver :B
                                                            _


                                                            Bill

                                                            Practicing Curmudgeon & Audio Snob
                                                            ....just an "ON" switch, Please!

                                                            FinleyAudio

                                                            Comment

                                                            • PewterTA
                                                              Moderator
                                                              • Nov 2004
                                                              • 2901

                                                              #31
                                                              Also works with an android tablet to control it.
                                                              Nothing like having 120K songs at your finger tips.



                                                              Here's how the skin actually looks....
                                                              Digital Audio makes me Happy.
                                                              -Dan

                                                              Comment

                                                              • wkhanna
                                                                Grumpy Old Super Moderator Emeritus
                                                                • Jan 2006
                                                                • 5673

                                                                #32
                                                                Originally posted by wkhanna

                                                                ....... a tea spoon of dawn to a quart of distilled or DI water (I use Aquafina too) should work fine as a surfactant to lift off dirt & organic materials. Some will use a second solution of 90% or better isopropyl alcohol in similar proportion to remove films that surfactants do not effectively clean.....
                                                                I just want to clarify some things:

                                                                A teaspoon of Dawn may be a bit much. But it certainly will not hurt your vinyl. The proportions you use are a personal choice. Just experiment & find what works for you.

                                                                Some put alcohol directly in with the soap, some use it as a separate cleaning step. As for mixing up the alcohol, I have seen recipes ranging from 50/50 water/alcohol to 95/5 water/alcohol. Just remmember to use alcohol of 90% or better purity. Its purity is listed on the bottle.

                                                                Regardless of your method, I recommend a good rinse after each cleaning.

                                                                I put my cleaning fluids in polyethylene spray bottles for easy use & storage.
                                                                Last edited by wkhanna; 12 January 2013, 16:12 Saturday.
                                                                _


                                                                Bill

                                                                Practicing Curmudgeon & Audio Snob
                                                                ....just an "ON" switch, Please!

                                                                FinleyAudio

                                                                Comment

                                                                • rdram
                                                                  Member
                                                                  • Mar 2005
                                                                  • 98

                                                                  #33
                                                                  Originally posted by wkhanna
                                                                  I just want to clarify some things:

                                                                  A teaspoon of Dawn may be a bit much. But it certainly will not hurt your vinyl. The proportions you use are a personal choice. Just experiment & find what works for your.

                                                                  Some put alcohol directly in with the soap, some use it as a separate cleaning step. As for mixing up the alcohol, I have seen recipes ranging from 50/50 water/alcohol to 95/5 water/alcohol. Just remmember to use alcohol of 90% or better purity. Its purity is listed on the bottle.

                                                                  Regardless of your method, I recommend a good rinse after each cleaning.

                                                                  I put my cleaning fluids in polyethylene spray bottles for easy use & storage.

                                                                  Thanks Bill. Off to the drug store right now. Then to find some microfiber towels. I haven't spun my first record yet and it's already a pita. :W

                                                                  Comment

                                                                  • wkhanna
                                                                    Grumpy Old Super Moderator Emeritus
                                                                    • Jan 2006
                                                                    • 5673

                                                                    #34
                                                                    Your patience is most admirable. I would have had LP's strewn about the room by now!

                                                                    A decent swipe with a carbon brush will be all you need for subsequent spins once they they have good bath.
                                                                    Last edited by wkhanna; 12 January 2013, 16:15 Saturday.
                                                                    _


                                                                    Bill

                                                                    Practicing Curmudgeon & Audio Snob
                                                                    ....just an "ON" switch, Please!

                                                                    FinleyAudio

                                                                    Comment

                                                                    • madmac
                                                                      Moderator Emeritus
                                                                      • Aug 2010
                                                                      • 3122

                                                                      #35
                                                                      I've heard that you can spin vinyl wet!!.......Eliminates the pops and cracks......Is that true??
                                                                      Dan Madden :T

                                                                      Comment

                                                                      • wkhanna
                                                                        Grumpy Old Super Moderator Emeritus
                                                                        • Jan 2006
                                                                        • 5673

                                                                        #36
                                                                        Originally posted by madmac
                                                                        I've heard that you can spin vinyl wet!!.......Eliminates the pops and cracks......
                                                                        I heard if you put peanut butter (creamy not crunchy) on a SeeDee it sounds smooth & natural instead of shrill & harsh.
                                                                        Last edited by wkhanna; 13 January 2013, 16:46 Sunday. Reason: added quote
                                                                        _


                                                                        Bill

                                                                        Practicing Curmudgeon & Audio Snob
                                                                        ....just an "ON" switch, Please!

                                                                        FinleyAudio

                                                                        Comment

                                                                        • PewterTA
                                                                          Moderator
                                                                          • Nov 2004
                                                                          • 2901

                                                                          #37
                                                                          I thought the best mod was getting rid of the wife... is this true?
                                                                          Digital Audio makes me Happy.
                                                                          -Dan

                                                                          Comment

                                                                          • Chris D
                                                                            Moderator Emeritus
                                                                            • Dec 2000
                                                                            • 16877

                                                                            #38
                                                                            Yeah, I think I read somewhere that if you get rid of the wife, put on vinyl pants, wet them down with oil, and spin over a hooker eating peanut butter, you get some VERY interesting sounds.

                                                                            Ummm.... wait, that's not it...
                                                                            CHRIS

                                                                            Well, we're safe for now. Thank goodness we're in a bowling alley.
                                                                            - Pleasantville

                                                                            Comment

                                                                            • rdram
                                                                              Member
                                                                              • Mar 2005
                                                                              • 98

                                                                              #39
                                                                              Originally posted by wkhanna
                                                                              Your patience is most admirable. I would have had LP's strewn about the room by now!

                                                                              A decent swipe with a carbon brush will be all you need for subsequent spins once they they have good bath.
                                                                              Ordered a carbon fiber brush today... and anti-static sleeves, and a stylus cleaner... and two LP's of course! Thanks for the tips, the bathing process went well.

                                                                              Finally, after a hectic weekend, I got to finally listen to three LP's yesterday afternoon. I started with a MFSL 1/2 speed of Steely Dan's Aja. Only trace amounts of rice crispies, and I was very impressed with how good my entry level TT sounded, as did the vinyl. The drum/sax solo midway thru the title song just jumped into the room. Next up an old copy of Joni Mitchells Hejira, which for it's age (1976?) was surprising free of any surface noise. (Must have been the bath). Vocals were smooth as silk, and Jaco Pastorius's bass riffs were clean and well defined. One thing I noticed... no sibilance at all in the vocals. Could be just a function of the recording, or is sibilance a digital artifact? Haven't listened to analog in so long can't comment.

                                                                              Anyway, on to the pièce de résistance... I have old MFSL 1/2 speed of Al Dimeola's Elegant Gypsy which I must have taken extremely good care of because the sound was flawless... and spectacular. I have an SACD version of this also, so when there's time it will be interesting to compare the two versions.

                                                                              Vinyl may have it's drawbacks, but analog does indeed have a different and more life like quality. Will need many more hours listening to quantify.

                                                                              Oh, and by the way, use jelly on your blues CD's.

                                                                              Rich
                                                                              Last edited by wkhanna; 15 January 2013, 11:18 Tuesday. Reason: Edited for continuity only - No text added, changed or deleted

                                                                              Comment

                                                                              • wkhanna
                                                                                Grumpy Old Super Moderator Emeritus
                                                                                • Jan 2006
                                                                                • 5673

                                                                                #40
                                                                                It sounds as though your TT is set-up well. I am not surprised you noticed reduction in sibilance, a most normal occurrence in the land of analog. I was especially keen on your description, “more life like quality”. One area where I have noticed dramatic differences is in vocal reproduction. It is an area where a properly adjusted & tuned analog rig will really stand out compared to SeeDee.

                                                                                I really think I may be quite nearly as excited as you.
                                                                                So glad your experience has been positive thus far.

                                                                                Oh, & a great selection of music, BTW!
                                                                                _


                                                                                Bill

                                                                                Practicing Curmudgeon & Audio Snob
                                                                                ....just an "ON" switch, Please!

                                                                                FinleyAudio

                                                                                Comment

                                                                                • mb225
                                                                                  Senior Member
                                                                                  • Jan 2009
                                                                                  • 131

                                                                                  #41
                                                                                  Originally posted by PewterTA
                                                                                  Well... not to jump on the band wagon...but heck... what's the fun if you don't...

                                                                                  Since the dynamic range database isn't accurate at all (right!?)... I figured I'd check my own copies of the DMB - BWATGK

                                                                                  For me the Vinyl is a lot better than the CD. You really notice how much they crank up the volume on the CD and you don't have the "punch" in the music. Over all too, I think the Vinyl sounds more realistic with the instruments and vocals.

                                                                                  Dynamic range of the CD.


                                                                                  Dynamic Range of the Vinyl.
                                                                                  So it seems like you are saying that the dynamic range database is accurate for this album. Thanks for verifying this!! 8)

                                                                                  Comment

                                                                                  • mb225
                                                                                    Senior Member
                                                                                    • Jan 2009
                                                                                    • 131

                                                                                    #42
                                                                                    Originally posted by Hdale85
                                                                                    CD's can be quite good, it's just this whole loudness fad is crushing the performance.
                                                                                    I completely agree! :T I think a well mastered CD would probably sound better than the same mastered vinyl.

                                                                                    It's upsetting that we cannot purchase the musician's master, not the version that gets updated by the sales/marketing department. After all, I can buy a director's cut of my favorite movie. Why don't they have an equivalent for music?

                                                                                    Comment

                                                                                    • wkhanna
                                                                                      Grumpy Old Super Moderator Emeritus
                                                                                      • Jan 2006
                                                                                      • 5673

                                                                                      #43
                                                                                      Originally posted by mb225
                                                                                      I think a well mastered CD would probably sound better than the same mastered vinyl.
                                                                                      Totally system dependant, IMHO. :W
                                                                                      _


                                                                                      Bill

                                                                                      Practicing Curmudgeon & Audio Snob
                                                                                      ....just an "ON" switch, Please!

                                                                                      FinleyAudio

                                                                                      Comment

                                                                                      • PewterTA
                                                                                        Moderator
                                                                                        • Nov 2004
                                                                                        • 2901

                                                                                        #44
                                                                                        Ideally... the same mastered CD and vinyl should sound exactly the same when played through the same system. Where it'll differ is through the DAC in the CDP... Well there's other factors...but yes they should sound exactly the same.

                                                                                        Though I'd go closer to say that a hi-res 24/96 might do it a little better.
                                                                                        Digital Audio makes me Happy.
                                                                                        -Dan

                                                                                        Comment

                                                                                        • Hdale85
                                                                                          Moderator Emeritus
                                                                                          • Jan 2006
                                                                                          • 16075

                                                                                          #45
                                                                                          Technically speaking a vinyl has more information on it, simply because it's an analog medium. But if both were mastered well and through great equipment likely wouldn't be easy to tell although I'd venture to say you'd probably get a bit warmer sound on vinyl but that's not necessarily true either depending on equipment.

                                                                                          Comment

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