"Running in" an amp?

[hired goon]

G'day,

A couple of times on this forum I've read that a new RSP-1066 or RSP-1068 preprocessor takes a few weeks to "run in".

Now I can understand speakers needing a few weeks to run in, as stiffness of diaphragms, etc, eventually find their natural state.

But what explains "run in" for solid state equipment? Can anyone explain if this really happens, and how?

-- Geoff

[shannow]

there is no such thing as running in an amplifier this is an afterselling tale and i've got this verified by a friend who has a doctorat in acoustics electronics and by other way I'm in a university in mecanics and I have enought knowledge to say that it is the same thing for a speaker running in ... (verified as well by other friends who usualy are not agreeing with me ... It doesn't existe sorry to disapoint your legends . If you want I can explain why the speaker can't run in

[Paul H]

If you want I can explain why the speaker can't run in

Please do.

Paul

[aarsoe]

Well - big surprise I dont agree on the run in..

Components and print cicuits are normally covered with a fluid during the assembly process (at least if they are machine assembly) This is the reason that new equipment will smell of that particular smell that all equipment have.
When you start using the equipment this will be heated and slowly "burn" off.
And yes, it does change something in the overall sound. Again, a hand assembly may not have the same issue - but I dont think many of us can afford hand assembly any longer.

[Cracking Oboe]

Run in/burn in

Science does not explain everything. The common attitude in science is, if we cannot measure it, it does not exist. (Do any of us know a person with an electrical engineering degree that will even consider that a high end cable can make a difference in sound? I don't!) I did not 'believe" in run in. Now I am a firm believer. My RCD 1070 sounded harsh (no... it just sounded bad) when I first got it, even on A/B player comparisons. The sound really improved with time. I was left wondering if I had just grown accustomed to the sound. (did my ears burn in or did the CD player). After a two week vacation I did not have to 'burn in' my ears again, so I have to assume it was the CD player. I've read reviews of the RCD 1070 since then, and every reviewer commented on how bad the player sounded until it 'burned in' so I guess it is not just me. I was suprised that my RSP 1068 was similar, and required a short 'burn in' time as well. My NAD never changed its sound with time, why Rotel? Oh well, the proof is in the pudding. I like the theory that it is coatings on the circut boards, it makes sense to me. Any other explanations out there?

Cracking

[aarsoe]

Just to add - I am sure someone will say that components settles down - but to be honest, that is a bit far fetched with the tolerances we use today. After all even the marketing people (thats me!! :T ) dont use the argument of low tolerance resistors any longer..

[shannow]

Please do.

Paul

indeed I will
Now by definition running in is a extremely violent wear of the material known as burn in and since there is a burn in it will then stay pretty stable (gently wearing it self away....) until the burn out . In other work if you say there is a running in for speakers your are telling me that the speakers are actualy wearing themself .... my ditton15 have 35 years old and they haven't gone out and will when the material will go with age and certainly not by it's use ...
Now another point which is a bit deeper ... any material has 2 limits .... one known as elastic limit and the other as rupture limite . When a material is streched under the elastic limite it will never change it's caracteristics by definition ( if you stretch it and then if you let go of the strenght it will come back at the original state and position ...) if you go over this elastic limit you're changing the material caracteristics and it is not reversible and by definition you're basicaly smashing the material ... espacialy with reapeted movements with a speaker it will probably by a matter of seconds before it litteraly detroy the material by cuting itself such as a spoon when you keep bending it ... this is known as the fatigue of the material and is reach after this elactic limit ... so in other words if you go other elastic limits by definition again it means you're smashing the thing .... if you're under you wont change any thing at all . hence you cannot change the caracteristics of the speakers . If you do change the properties of this material you're ruining it .

Please do.

Paul

your version please

[shannow]

Another small thing the friend of mine has produced two lovely amplifiers which are working extremely well and worth about 3000-4000$ easely (using bulb technology as well ...) so I guess he knows a little more than some sellers ....

[shannow]

Science does not explain everything. The common attitude in science is, if we cannot measure it, it does not exist. (Do any of us know a person with an electrical engineering degree that will even consider that a high end cable can make a difference in sound? I don't!) I did not 'believe" in run in. Now I am a firm believer. My RCD 1070 sounded harsh (no... it just sounded bad) when I first got it, even on A/B player comparisons. The sound really improved with time. I was left wondering if I had just grown accustomed to the sound. (did my ears burn in or did the CD player). After a two week vacation I did not have to 'burn in' my ears again, so I have to assume it was the CD player. I've read reviews of the RCD 1070 since then, and every reviewer commented on how bad the player sounded until it 'burned in' so I guess it is not just me. I was suprised that my RSP 1068 was similar, and required a short 'burn in' time as well. My NAD never changed its sound with time, why Rotel? Oh well, the proof is in the pudding. I like the theory that it is coatings on the circut boards, it makes sense to me. Any other explanations out there?

Cracking

For this i have an small explanation you did hear a diference of course this is normal . what happens is that your ears basicaly adapted themself to the sound . The relation ship between the ear and the brain is not a machine it is by far more complexe than that ! The brain and the ears are a filter and it is so much adapting to yourself anc the surrounding sound that it is probable that if you took your friend's ears to ear with it your brain probably won't ear anything ... As i said remember a brain is not a machine it is so complexe that we can't understanding all but physics like that we can ! it is whitin our limits no probleme so don't mistenderstand your ear quality is good but is more complexe than what you're saying it doesn't measure the sound and simply says it's shit or it's better or the sound is getting better and changing at 0.001 db/m and distorts less by 0.0000023 % each seconds

[SpOoNmAn]

alls I know is my 1072 cd player was harsh and bright until a few days later. carry on

[shannow]

a small thing as well... the nad probably was near the usual sound that you ear and you're use to and the rotel wasn't .That is probably i think why there was a diference of adapting yourself on it

[Andrew Pratt]

I'd be interested in what Jon has to say on both the break in of electronics and speakers. I'm not so sure about electronics but I've heard it on speakers.

[Kevin P]

My hunch is that some components used in electronics can "break in" or "burn in" over time, in particular, electrolytic capacitors. Also tubes break in, if you use tube gear.

Speakers definitely have a break in period, because they're mechanical devices. The spiders and cone surrounds are stiffer when they're brand new and they loosen up over the first hundred or so hours of use. Crossovers use electrolytic caps as well.

[shannow]

Your speakers are therefore deteriorating (fast). And the if an amplifier needs running in I don't want it ....

[aarsoe]

Hmm - will add one more thing about burn in. Guess I should have stated it before, but it must have slipped my mind.
All current will create magnetic fields and thereby polarise parts of any electronic circuit. That being both passive and active components - ie. cables, resistors, transistors etc.
That could also explain some of the burn-in, which by the way should not be mistaken with warm up. Thats a different animal all together..

[shannow]

"The spiders and cone surrounds are stiffer when they're brand new and they loosen up over the first hundred or so hours of use"
you mean the manufacturers haven't built the thing properly and hasn't checked them ?they're selling something that will produce a diferent sound that what they were built for ? that's a bad sign for professional reviewers if you can change the sound of a speaker just by runin them .... they don't change by anymeans .How many times do you change the springs on a car ? how many time do you change springs of the valve sytems on a bus ? Do you have to run in a car electronic injection system to have it more performant ?

[shannow]

"resistors, transistors " you can't polarise these . And it only work with DC currant to polarise componants .

[aarsoe]

Maybe I should also mention that burn-in is taken very serious in my industry (IT) in fact so serious that no server is allowed to leave the factory before at least 24 to 48 hours of burn in. Reason being that circuit boards do change in that periode and errors can accour - the number of DOA and strange behaving machines this have reduced is significant..

[aarsoe]

Sure you can - anything metalic can be polarised...

[shannow]

"Sure you can - anything metalic can be polarised..." no

[shannow]

"Maybe I should also mention that burn-in is taken very serious in my industry (IT) in fact so serious that no server is allowed to leave the factory before at least 24 to 48 hours of burn in. Reason being that circuit boards do change in that periode and errors can accour - the number of DOA and strange behaving machines this have reduced is significant.."
Nothing to do with better performance it is a quality control that checks for early failures. Have you ever seen Ford coming out of a production line?

[aarsoe]

Well - guess it comes down to us both being stubborn. Anyway the entire trade press in the Hifi arena alwayes (at least 90% of the time) mentions burn in changes.
The electronics industry recognises changes in reliability and performance after burn in...
My conclusion would be ..... your mistaken in your oppinion, but your certainly entitled to have it.. ;-)

[shannow]

therefore my friend who only has a doctorat in electronics does not know anything about electronics and his amplifiers are as well rubish ... i'm not the only one to say it ...

[shannow]

could you please send me links to manufacturers site that says you got to run this particaly models of speakers to so many hour ?

[aarsoe]

From B&W speakers homepager in their Q&A section..

http://www.bwspeakers.com/index.cfm/fuseaction/local.faq/ObjectID/F5CA2E74-3D20-11D4-A67F00D0B7473B37

Burn-in period

The performance of a speaker will change subtly during the initial listening period. If the speaker has been stored in a cold environment, the damping compounds and suspension materials of the drive units will take some time to recover their correct mechanical properties. The drive unit suspensions will also loosen up during the first hours of use. But probably the Kevlar® cones that feature in most of our products take the longest time to settle in.

The time taken for the speaker to achieve its intended performance will vary depending on the type of drive units employed, previous storage conditions and how it is used. As a guide, allow up to a week for the temperature effects to stabilise and 15 hours of average use for the mechanical parts of non-Kevlar® drivers to attain their intended design characteristics. For systems having Kevlar® drivers, be prepared for changes to continue for around one month of steady use.

I am sure that you can find many others - this was very simple to find.. :T

[shannow]

this is for the heat they take both at the same time. burning in i don't see what the heat has got to do with it sure heat changes caracteristics in this is one site they're confusing them . now more interesting because this is will prove it well and definitly could you show me 2 graphs one with the speakers brand new and the other after burning ....

[shannow]

(lol hey i won't buy b&w if they're confusing heat conditions and burnin in :P )

[shannow]

"allow up to a week for the temperature effects to stabilise "
how thick are they to take a week????
I can't buy them T_T because at my place every 24h i have a complete cycle day/night so temperature changes that's not good ....

[aarsoe]

Oh man - you wont give in..

Anyway from JM lab user manual to the Utopia range models

http://www.focal.tm.fr/Pictures/utopiabe/Notice_UTBE_GB.pdf

Breaking-in period
The drivers used in the Utopia Be Line are made up of complex mechanical elements and require an adaptation period before they deliver
their full potential. They must get adapted to the temperature and humidity conditions of their environment. This breaking-in period
depends upon the encountered conditions and can last several weeks. In order to shorten this period, we advise you to let your subwoofer
operate for about twenty hours at medium level, playing standard music programs, but with a large amount of bass. Once the components
of the loudspeaker are completely stabilized, it is possible to enjoy the real performance of your speakers.


From Martin Logan Prodigy manual

http://www.martinlogan.com/mediaresources/OnlineDocumentation/Manual_Prodigy.pdf

Break-In
When you first begin to play your Prodigy speakers, they
may sound a bit bass shy. This is due to the high-quality,
long-life components used in our woofer. Our custom
made, butyl surround woofer requires 30 hours of breakin
at 90 dB (moderate listening levels) before any critical
listening. The break-in requirements of the crossover components
(and, to a lesser degree, the stator) are equivalent.

[aarsoe]

Here is one from Mark Levinson on their 33H mono amp - by some critics viewed as one of the best amps in the world.

http://www.marklevinson.com/downloads/manuals/no33_h.pdf

Warm up/break-in period Although your Mark Levinson Nº33H monaural power amplifiers deliver outstanding
performance straight out of their boxes, you should expect to hear them
continue to improve as they reaches their normal operating temperatures and
various components “break-in.” It has been our experience that the greatest
changes occur within the first 25-50 hours, but that the amplifiers will continue to
improve in sound quality for about 300 hours, after which time they remain quite
constant.
The only exception to this rule is if power is removed from the units, allowing
them to cool down. In this case you should expect a brief warm-up period before
the amplifiers’ sound quality is at their best. (Fortunately, you will never have
to repeat the full 300 hour break-in period.)

[ThomasW]

My Ayre K-5x, and V-5x say 100-500hrs .......... :wink:

Actually after 24hrs or so the caps have had time to 'form' and everything is usually good to go....... :T

Andrew P.

Jon's not a big believer in long burn in times for electronics. He laughed when I read him the burn-in blurb that was printed in the K-5x manual

[Andrew Pratt]

I was thinking more along the lines of his thoughts on speaker cones rather then electronics.

Also this topic has the potential to get nasty with the various polarized views expressed here so far...so please lets keep this professional and not resort to name calling etc. (not that I have to worry with the fine folk we have on this board..right :W )

[jrd]

Very interesting thread. I certainly don't have the expertise to say anyone's post is right or wrong, but I can't help but wonder if the "burn in" that's referred to isn't because a solid state component seems to fail in the first couple hours of use, if it's going to fail at all. The company that comes to mind that seems to do things differently from the mainstream is Bryston. The company's philosophy, seen here: http://www.bryston.ca/mission.html makes me want to go out and buy one tomorrow. Because they DO assemble everything by hand, kind of makes me think it's not a substance on the circuit board or other parts that has to burn off. They "burn in" every one of their products, they say, to make sure there are no component failures before the product ships, and the spec sheet with all aspects of the amplifier's performance is packaged along with it.

[Paul H]

I see that my simple 'please explain' suggestion up top generated lots of traffic on this thread - glad to see, as Andrew noted, that it's friendly enough.

I honestly don't know for certain what, if anything, happens during a break-in period. My personal impression with new speakers is that bass response does increase during the first few weeks of regular play. This is generally attibuted to loosening of the speaker cone surrounds. Many people have written in to forums to say that measured Thiele/Small parameters for their drivers changed before/after a break-in period. I believe this to be true but I haven't checked it personally.

Points noted above about elastic movement and permanent deformation of materials are correct, but oversimplified. The elastic properties of a material change as the material is stressed into permanent deformation - elastic/rupture properties are dynamic and interactive. A speaker cone can undergo minor initial deformation followed by slightly revised elastic properties - it is entirely possible for a material (ie speaker cones) to loosen up without tearing themselves to pieces.

Paul

[jimmyp58]

Thanks for mentioning Bryston jrd. I was going to join in with that but you beat me to it.

[aarsoe]

Andrew

I would never resort to name calling.... You &%&/((&%¤¤ :W :rofl:

[robertwb70]

I have an amplifier that hummed when I first got it(both through the chassis and the speakers)-loud enough to hear from the listening position between tracks(at normal levels)-now 6 months later you have to put you're ear right up to the speaker(same speakers) to hear the hum with the volume full up

so if it didn't "break in" what happened?

[shannow]

"Points noted above about elastic movement and permanent deformation of materials are correct, but oversimplified. The elastic properties of a material change as the material is stressed into permanent deformation - elastic/rupture properties are dynamic and interactive. A speaker cone can undergo minor initial deformation followed by slightly revised elastic properties - it is entirely possible for a material (ie speaker cones) to loosen up without tearing themselves to pieces.

Paul"
What i have surligned is very true and i agree.. i may not have the level yet :S but i would have said that this is an area were the structure of the material is being modified and this process can't be controled ... for me this area of the curve on the graphics is a part were the material is getting damaged and is irreversible since you're modifying it's structure and so the caracteristics of it . For me in this area between elastic limits and the rupture one is a dangerous place for the material . Fatigue is the same word as stresse for me (sorry english is my second language my maternal language is french so excuse me for all the errors :S ) in this area stresse factor ocures extremely fast and is very hazardous the material is under an unnormal situation ....(It is very ramdon it could snap the instant is reaches the first limite and the same at the extrem it could snap way above what it should have done ) I would like to understand it all I may be wrong on things I'm only 19years old and haven't finish my studies but I try to make sens of things with my little level even if it's not enough ... I find it an interresting conversation (for your high quality speakers remember the expression “you do not run in a rolls royce “ this I think is a quality control .they check with precision the graph so that they give you a speaker that hasn’t got any errors ) another thing I think I may got mixed up a litle with burning in
And runnin in …. I think that there is a burn in for electronics componants (detects all first failures… )but then the running in does not apply (electronic is certainly not my speciality ;p but it trust my friend for the amplifier running in ) .
I find it an interresting conversation
And hey tomorrow i'm gonna fetch my ra-01 with my celius 202 i'm very happy (well normaly ... I hope that nothing will go wrong )

[Kemp]

Here's my 2 cents.

I recently bought a CDP and hooked it up to the amp with the DVD already hooked up. I haven't listened to the CDP at the shop so couldn't form a decision beforehand. The idea was to test it at home and if I don't like it to take it back. I took an album of which I have two cd's and loaded it in the CDP and DVD and started the same song at the same time. I then switched between the two components and was very disappointed with the CDP. The DVD outplayed it in all aspects. I decided two run it for a while and try it again. So the following day after it has run for approximately 10 hours I did the same thing again... The CDP outperformed the DVD in all aspects to my liking. Therefor my ears couldn't get accustomed to the new sound as the two "tests" were done without listening in between. I can only attribute the change due to the socalled "run in". What else could it be?

[Cracking Oboe]

O.K.

I'm really going to mess things up. :evil:
I replaced my speaker wire with speaker 'cable' without my wife's knowledge. Shortly after the cable change (While I was auditioning the new cables with some dissapointment) my wife walked into the room, sat down for a listen and said, "What did you do to the stereo?". I replied that I had changed the speaker cables. She said "Well, I don't like it, change it back!" and she left the room. 8O
I read the information that came with the cables and it said that the cables needed to be played for a while to set up the dielectric fields (+/- charges) in the insulating material before they would perform optimally. So, I continued to use them. I felt the sound had significantly improved over time and that was confirmed a week later when my wife came in and said "that sounds way better, did you change the cables back or get new ones?" She was surprised when I told her that it was the same set up after being burnt-in.
I understand science and research, and not all research agrees with current scientific theories. Science would imply electron in - electron out.This "blind" test (research) would suggest we do not know all of the science behind sound reproduction. Couldn't this same dielectric effect be occuring in the electronics wiring?
A far as speaker run in - Elasticity has been disscussed, what about plasticity? Are we confusing the two?

Praise be... I'm a believer in electronic run in, despite what I have been taught. Yes, dogma appears to still be alive and well. I'll repeat myself, (as science can be very reductionist) - "if it cannot be measured it does not exist." :wink:



Cheers!

[shannow]

damn it . they didn't have the rotel ra-01 in the shop so i've ordered it . I 've put the speakers on the ra-412 and i have a problem when i witch off and on the amplifier the woofers go in and out once at least 5mm :S . i supose it's the condensators of the rotel witch are discharging themself .Is it damaging the speakers?

[hired goon]

I started this thread, and wondered if Rotel amps had a "break-in period", as claimed by some users.

I asked Rotel, and they told me that "there should not be any break-in period needed for our product".

So there ya go.

[David Meek]

Being away for a few days, I must thank all of you for a very refreshing civil discussion on these subjects. Many, many times these degenerate into "stupid audiophile" / "tone-deaf egghead" name-calling matches. It's nice to see that hasn't happened after 40+ posts. Carry on. . . .

Just to be officious: I won't tolerate that kind of stuff anyway. :smackbutt:

[shannow]

I started this thread, and wondered if Rotel amps had a "break-in period", as claimed by some users.

I asked Rotel, and they told me that "there should not be any break-in period needed for our product".

So there ya go.

:T !

Being away for a few days, I must thank all of you for a very refreshing civil discussion on these subjects. Many, many times these degenerate into "stupid audiophile" / "tone-deaf egghead" name-calling matches. It's nice to see that hasn't happened after 40+ posts. Carry on. . . .

Just to be officious: I won't tolerate that kind of stuff anyway.

Thanks too i'm not a violent huy :P lol anyway I've had my new triangles speakers for 5days now running them about 3-4 h per day and the sound hasn't changed to me yet .

[David Meek]

Jonathan, which Triangles do you have?

Never mind, just saw your earlier post. :