Can of Worms

**SiliGoose** · 25 October 2002, 23:30 Friday

Noooooooo Comment! :twisted:

-Sili

**Lex** · 26 October 2002, 01:57 Saturday

I would encourage this discussion at http://www.thecableforum.com, our other forum.

Feel free to join up over there. We need the members.

My general opinion is, yes, cables can be a suttle change. But an important change. However, I am not a proponent of the 2000.00 pair of cables. I do think there are reasonable price points for 99% of the performance of anything that high a price, in the 100-500 price range. I mean I sell solid silver for just over 100.00 for a 1 meter pair. To be honest? It doesn't get to much better than that except adding more of a good thing.

Lex

**JonMarsh** · 26 October 2002, 10:58 Saturday

A lot depends on your total system configuration, it's overall coloration and resolution, etc.

Many cables do have a definite "sound", or signature, and for some what works is to combine cables with components, using the cables somewhat as subtle "tone controls". If you've got a straightline system which doesn't have tone controls, maybe that a valid approach.

I'd say you have to be on the lookout for understanding the difference between a cable that sounds "different", versus one that perhaps is truely less colored and offers more top to bottom resolution.

A modest system with the right components can benefit from better cables, but certainly it would be smart to invest the money first where it has some of the most obvious returns, such as in the speaker system, the room setup, and the source component.

That said, in a truly high resolution system (with regards to speakers an electronics; think high end tube or zero feedback solid state; think Ayre, Wadia, or Theta Digial sources, etc) the right cables are critical to realizing the full system performance- and this is where interconnects that go for several hundred dollars and speaker cables approaching or exceeding $1K a pair may be worthwhile.

Some say that hearing these difference isn't likely, but I've turned on friends from my company in Singapore and Munich who were turned off by the normal comparisons in midrange HiFi gear, but as they put it, auditioning a system in this class was a revelation- and their wives thought so, too.

Best regards,

Jon

Earth First!
_______________________________
We'll screw up the other planets later....

**Andrew Pratt** · 26 October 2002, 13:02 Saturday

I used to be in the cables don't matter camp until one day I had the chance to properly A-B some IXOS cables vs some nice Audioquest ones and the two of us that were listening were able to pick which was which everytime (someone else was switching them for us) Since then I've been able to try a number of other cables and have found some were worth the increased cost some were not. I don't want this to turn into a comercial but I do have to mention up Doug's catcables...they are affordable cables for the quality you get...even if you don't hear a difference the build quality is worth the cost alone

**SiliGoose** · 27 October 2002, 12:21 Sunday

even if you don't hear a difference the build quality is worth the cost alone

That's the oddest statement I've seen in a long while.
If you can't hear any difference by using a more expensive cable why the hell would you even begin to care about build quality? It's not like Radio Shack cables suddenly begin to erode.

I'd say spend money on your room before you buy into the cable debate. The biggest audible change you can make to your system is by learning to tune your room. If you can hear a difference between cables, that's great...more power to you. In my experience very few audiophilles are capable of self-honesty in this issue.

-Sili

**Burke Strickland** · 27 October 2002, 15:03 Sunday

Originally posted by SiliGoose

why the hell would you even begin to care about build quality? It's not like Radio Shack cables suddenly begin to erode.

But they can fall apart or break. I have had the connectors pull off the ends of cheap cables and other situations where the wires apparantly broke internally from just a moderate bend around a corner. So build quality CAN make a difference -- the difference between a usable interconnect and a useless piece of ...wire. :>) And note that there are different levels of build quality and price even among Radio Shack cables.

The sturdiness and reliability of cables rendered by build quality have nothing whatsoever to do with "hearing a difference" between cables. (Unless you count the difference between hearing cuss words when cheap cables break and NOT hearing them when good ones don't.) :>) Build quality speaks directly to the virtue of economy that you prize, due to longer term servicability of well-built cables.

And since you've brought it up, could you be more specific about what constitutes economical but effective room "tuning" and why it is important? (URLs to reference resources would be helpful.) Thanks.

Burke

**Andrew Pratt** · 28 October 2002, 00:44 Monday

If you can't hear any difference by using a more expensive cable why the hell would you even begin to care about build quality? It's not like Radio Shack cables suddenly begin to erode.

As burke mentions I've had RS cables bite so hard on RCA inputs that they nearly pulled them apart when I swapped out gear. I've also have an IC fail at the solder joint b/c it wasn't built well. With higher quality cables this isn't usually a concern.

I do agree though that cables are a minor tweak compared to the room and gear/speaker choices but they way I look at it if I buy a quality IC now I'll have it for years rather then a cheaper one that I'll want to replace later. For me its cheaper to spend the little extra now then to buy a cheaper RS type cable now only to replace it later...

**Lex** · 28 October 2002, 00:50 Monday

they can fall apart or break. I have had the connectors pull off the ends of cheap cables and other situations where the wires apparantly broke internally from just a moderate bend around a corner. So build quality CAN make a difference

Even if I wasn't in the cable business, to that I would say, yup. I once had some Rat Shack cables pull the female RCA apart on a Rat Shack switch box. No, it wasn't my component, but that death grip they exert is capable of pulling them apart. I once tried to loosen some of their "better RCAs", and the darn thing split apart. The gold series I have loosened them a bit before succesfully, but the point is, you shouldn't have to.

Point comes to light with video as well. Some coax can have steel coated copper conductors. Is that what you want carrying your video signal? normally, steel is used for strength by people like cable companies, but how do we know what Rat Shack and other inexpensive cable makers use?

Aside from that Sili, I would say buying an Anthem processor, then using the cheapest cables you could find would be like buying a Z06 Corvette and putting recaps on it. :LOL:

For my critical connections, I want to feel good about what I am plugging in. That's why I plopped down cash for nice Audioquest cables even before I sold cables. So, I don't just buy into this now that I sell them. I appreciate quality in everything I purchase, whether cars, cameras, speakers, components, or cables....

Lex

**SiliGoose** · 28 October 2002, 01:14 Monday

But they can fall apart or break. I have had the connectors pull off the ends of cheap cables and other situations where the wires apparantly broke internally from just a moderate bend around a corner.

Sure, build quality means just what it says. But if you can't hear any difference in quality (as the original quote postulated) who cares if a $10 cable falls apart? Are you really going to spend $60 on a cable that won't break when a minimal gamble on a $10 cable saves serious money?

Funny story: I once had a "high quality" (and quite expensive) cable rip the RCA jack off my HK AVR-7000. I guess that indicates the cable was of higher quality than the hardware? Perhaps it was the point of diminishing returns.

And since you've brought it up, could you be more specific about what constitutes economical but effective room "tuning" and why it is important? (URLs to reference resources would be helpful.) Thanks.

There are several sources. Here is one good one. http://www.audioperfectionist.com/ Subscribe to his newsletter...it's audio honesty. He's also fun to read.

Aside from that Sili, I would say buying an Anthem processor, then using the cheapest cables you could find would be like buying a Z06 Corvette and putting recaps on it.

Your point would be valid only if I could hear a difference between "good" and "cheap" cables. I cannot. We've been down that road.

I don't use crappy cables. I have a collection of fairly decent "high quality" cables. Not because I think they have any performance benefit but because they look cool. However, if my system was built-in to a wall where the cables were not visible I would have no problem at all in buying el cheapo stuff.

-Sili

**Lex** · 28 October 2002, 20:52 Monday

Well, there can be and is a difference between many. If you can't hear it Sili, well, I guess you can save some money. Many people have heard a difference.

As long as your mindset is as strong as it is, it's likely true, you never will hear a difference, because you've preconditioned yourself that way. You almost always have to want something good before it can happen in your mind.

Lex

**SiliGoose** · 29 October 2002, 11:48 Tuesday

As long as your mindset is as strong as it is, it's likely true, you never will hear a difference, because you've preconditioned yourself that way.

Wow. What a one-sided statement that is.
What about the possibility that you've preconditioned yourself to hearing a difference? Why does it have to be me who is intentionally twisting reality to suit my mindset?
This works both ways, my friend. It's called opinion.
Besides, my mind is not as closed as you obviously think. I would love nothing more than to spend $100 on "quality" cables to improve the sound of my system. That would be awesome!

You almost always have to want something good before it can happen in your mind.

You shot yourself in the foot with that statement.
You're telling me you want to hear a difference between cables so, damnit, you're gonna hear a difference! That's not how I work. I'm done with the whole ego thing...I hear what's really there and that's it.
There is an often used psychological argument that audiophiles hear improved sound based upon ego & money spent. My Anthem sounds a lot better than my previous HK receiver but it doesn't sound anywhere near $2000 better. Somehow knowing that it cost that much more makes me think it's that much better. That's exactly what the mid-fi to high-fi business is based on.

-Sili

**Lex** · 29 October 2002, 16:44 Tuesday

Sili, I am not going to argue with you. Thanks Redstep, lol.

Actually with an open mind, you may or may not hear differences in cables. People don't always. But with a closed mind, that cables are cables. CABLES WILL ALWAYS BE CABLES to that person.

You know my opinions on cables, and you also know your's strongly disagrees. Let's just leave it at that.

The human psyche cannot be separated from the ears and eyes. We are all influenced by it. If it makes my stereo sound better, then hey, it doesn't really matter if it's live or memorex as long as it sounds better to me.

I dare you to try some solid silver cables and tell me you don't hear a difference.

Lex

**SiliGoose** · 30 October 2002, 02:10 Wednesday

Sili, I am not going to argue with you.

It's unfortunate you see this as an arguement.

Actually with an open mind, you may or may not hear differences in cables. People don't always. But with a closed mind, that cables are cables. CABLES WILL ALWAYS BE CABLES to that person.

You persist with the thinking that I'm the one with the closed mind. You seem unable to accept the posibility that person might be you. I take exception to that stance. What makes your opinion greater than mine? You're displaying a lack of respect for opinions you don't want to hear.

I have only stated that I have yet to hear a difference between cables. It's my experience but it's far from conclusive. That admission alone should end any speculation that I'm unable or unwilling to accept that some cable in some system in all the universe will have a positive effect on the sound of that system. I almost wonder if you think I believe I'm spitting out facts? As if I'm that arrogant.

It's not like I came in with scientific reasons why cables shouldn't improve sound. Had I done that your position would have been valid...as it stands, it's as illogical as your debate technique.

P.S. If you read this and think I'm upset in any way, you're wrong. I'm just following through.

-Sili

**RedStep** · 15 November 2002, 00:20 Friday

8O OOOPS....I ment to say, did you like blonds or brunettes

Besides, my eyes say they sound a little better.....

RedStep
We are truly a product of the decisions we make

**David Meek** · 15 November 2002, 02:59 Friday

Throwing in my 2 cents here:

On speaker cables, ya' darn tootin' there are differences! And in some cases, NOT subtle ones.

On interconnects, I didn't, or maybe wasn't able to hear differences between the OEM junk included in various components' boxes and lower-end Monsters. But I CAN hear a difference between those low-end cables and the AudioQuest Topaz I upgraded to about two years ago, and it's not a small one! I can also hear a difference, albiet a more subtle one, between the AQ Topaz and the SilverCats I purchased for DVD-Audio. This wasn't one of those "I've gotta upgrade" spastic moments that people have, it was a "I'll try them and see if there is a difference" experiment that did pay dividends. One note: the SilverCats had a 30-day no-questions refund period which was a big aide in trying to be as un-biased in my auditioning as possible.

As I see it, we all have varying thresholds for hearing acuity, tonal separation, sensitivity, whatever you want to call it, and that - in part - sets a baseline for what one can and can't percieve aurally. Differing components interact with interconnects in differing ways to produce variances that some are able to hear and some aren't based on their personal threshold. I'm not blessed, or cursed, with bat-like hearing, but I can denote differences at some level. Others, I think, can pick up very subtle differences and others hear little, if any, change.

Yes, I've left out room interactions, phases of the moon, etc. I just want to get it out on the table that we are all different and that - I hope - should leave enough wiggle room to satisify both sides in these discussions.

Thoughts anyone?

David - HTGuide flunky
Our "Theater"
Our DVDs on DVD Tracker

**Bob** · 15 November 2002, 08:51 Friday

Sili,
Glad to see that you've spent the time to read the audio perfectionist. A lot of people at this forum could save plenty of money, and have a much more satisfying system, if they took the time to do the same.
One surprise though. I have been to Richard's house several times and, much to my surprise, he beleives not only in the sonic signature of cables but also keeps his speaker cables on blocks of wood so they don't touch the carpet. I made fun of him until he removed them. However, cables are definitly way less important than speakers, room, source electronics ( in that order). And, more money doesn't mean improved sound, and if speakers and room acoustics aren't the best you can make them you may never hear the difference. Also, I would say most people are like me, we need to live with our system for quite a while before being able to hear the subtle differences.