What is up with this?

[Crimson]

Stuff like this really rattles me. Over on HTF, a debate is going on as to whether SACD is 'better' than redbook CD. Here's the clincher: The naysayers hypothesize that it CANNOT be so, based on thier 'readings', yet have NEVER even heard the SACD format!
They demand double blind tests, level-matching etc., but in my experience the differences between the 2 formats are NOT subtle on a halfway decent system. Thier take is that its just snake oil.
Whats up with this?




Q.

[John Holmes]

I think that this is the one thing that troubles me in our hobby and forums. It seems that some feel it is important to tell others that, one cannot possibly be enjoying this or that because of this or that.

I feel that if the individual(s) are happy with the performance and or equipment regardless of name brand, level, or technology then, I am happy for them. It is the involvement that matters imo.




"I came here, to chew bubble gum and kickass. And I'm all out of bubble gum!!!" My DVD's

[George Bellefontaine]

Well said, John.




My Homepage!

[ThomasW]

Well some people don't want to hear a difference

Others can't hear a difference because their associated equipment isn't good enough.

Finally others won't hear a difference because they haven't auditioned SACD. And they have read some people's inaccurate explainations of DSD and this is all they need/wanted to hear in order to dismiss the format

As an early adaptor (early Sept of last year) one of the main things that drew me to buying a SCD-777ES was it's superior Redbook playback. I didn't care if the SACD format failed or succeeded because the Redbook performance of the players was so good. Don't misunderstand though, I truly appreciate the great sound of full blown DSD recordings as well




theAudioWorx
Klone-Audio

[JonMarsh]

Hi all.

There are listeners and magazines which say that all CD players above about $250 in cost sound alike. Often, these same mags say all half way decently decided power amps sound alike. (I'm not talking about the old "Stereo Review", I'm talking contemporary publications like "Sensible Sound" and others.

Boy, would my life be cheaper and simpler if it were the case.

Now, there's no question in my mind that CD can sound better and better, depending on the hardware. And I've heard an $8K CD player that is a better CD player than any SACD player I've heard so far, though not by a big margin. SACD, though, still can have a clear advantage. It's not a panacea, though. (even though some around the forum think my middle name is "SACD", perhaps justifiably so.)

Let's stir up the waters a little more.

Even a "mid-fi" (by my standards) Sony CD player (XA7ES) is good enough to demo marked differences between power amps- particularly, upper mid and high frequency naturalness and clarity.

Yet also, on an amp thiat is judged the lesser using this as a source, the amp is still good enough to clearly judge SACD as more open, natural, and detailed than CD. This is not a hypothetical situation, this is fact in some listening "face-offs" conducted in the last several months, and was unaminously agreed by all parties present at those sessions. The names are withheld just to avoid another forum flamewar.

I've got some superbly mastered XRCD2 disks, with gorgeous (for CD) sound, better perhaps, than some SACD(due to source quality). But overall, I find SACD disks do have an clear edge in sonic coninuity, extraction of low level detail and spatial cues, and overall naturalness. A lot of the refinement of SACD underwent developemnt by using A/B comparisons on live feeds, as well as with master tape. Decisions were made on coding/decoding process not just on how it measured, but how transparent it was in an A/B test compared with the original- as well as with other formats such as 24/96 PCM.

If one thinks SACD is snake oil, and not an improvement on CD, then by all means you shouldn't buy it. For many people, CD is not enough better than MP3, based on their listening requirements and values, to justify the larger memory and storage space. For them, convenience rules. As long as it makes them happy, why not?

Making blanket declarations of what is worthwhile or not worthwile for others, is pointless, and given how little time we have to devote to the things in life that are important, rather sad. But that knife cuts both ways. Let's face it, if someone *hasn't* bought an SACD player, and listended to software extensively, they're in *no* position to comment knowledgably about it one way or the other. They're just regurgitating internet factoids and playing at format politics. Who cares? For me, this hobby is about the music. For others, it seems to be something else.

Best regards,

Jon




Earth First!
_______________________________
We'll screw up the other planets later....

[John Kotches]

I've been one of the participants in this "discussion" over at HTF....

I think these guys are stuck in the "big hair" days of the 1980s.. You know, "Perfect Sound Forever".

I agree with Jons sentiment that we still haven't tapped the full potential of Redbook CD, maybe we never will.

It is however (in my mind) a band-aid approach that would be better served by one of the High-Res solutions.

I've got both DVD-A and SACD in my system at the moment, and there have been some drastic improvements since they both were resident in my system and I think I shortchanged DVD-A earlier

Regards,




---
Editor, PC/Home Theater
Secrets of Home Theater and High Fidelity
My Home Theater
NEC LT-150 specific page.

[Crimson]

Jon,
When conducting your comparison demo of amps, and then CD to SACD, did you have every participant in the room sitting in each others laps, blindfolded with a scarf of far-eastern origin, ambient temperature regulated at 72 F, ambient noise levels below 5 db, blood-pressure levels manipulated to a healthy 115/70, made sure every participant evacuated thier bowels prior to the test, and...... demanded everyones hair color be the same tinge of blue? If not, your decision is flawed.

John,
Did you do the above before 'hearing' the difference between DVDA and SACD?




Q.

[John Kotches]

Of course I didn't. Why I just have my ears, which are uncalibrated.

I actually do believe ABX is of some value, but don't think it's the ultimate arbiter for audio testing.

Regards,




---
Editor, PC/Home Theater
Secrets of Home Theater and High Fidelity
My Home Theater
NEC LT-150 specific page.

[Chip]

I've been reading that thread over at HTF for the last couple days too.. Honestly, i don't understand any of the technical jargin being blown around in the thread, lol and that's ok by me... interesting how strongly people feel about these things though. I bought the Sony SCD-C555ES last week for redbook playback, not SACD. If i pick up some SACD's,fine, it's capable, if not, it's the best CD player i've ever had.
Hey, i'm just a union concrete finisher who rely's on "mt" system and "my" ears.

- Chip




Chip Engle


"Concrete ain't a spectator sport"


<a href="http://www.htguide.com/bilder/index.cfm?fuseaction=arkivbilder&userid=0&selected userid=336" target="_blank">My HT

[Lex]

I sure am glad your union Chip! We might have had to reposess that 555, hehe.

Say, what kind of cables you using on that thing? Sounds like a great player, enjoy!

As to the debate at HTF, and "tunnel vision". I just had a similar reaction to the optical vs. coax debate, with 1 guy really getting offensive acting over it claiming they are the same. He has since apologized, well, sort of anyway, he said if he offended anyone, he was sorry, but it wasn't just anyone, it was me, and he did know that.
But it's ok, I been there enough before to not overreact.

Lex

[Markj]

I don’t visit HTF any more, too crowded. Debts over formats don’t interest me and I would rather go listen for myself than read arguments back and forth.

OVER REACTING IS WHAT I DO BEST!!!!!!

[JonMarsh]

Hey Crimson,

We didn't do any of that; my systolic is something like 90, plus, besides, our results are clearly only accurate for the altitude we were testing at, about 5280 feet, give or take a few

These differences really aren't all that subtle, so someone that listens to music critically a lot. Heck, even ThomasW, our resident bass meister, sat up and took notice on the midrange/high end differences between the two amps in just a few minutes :E (well, maybe it was an unfair test because we were using one of his favorite Ravi Shankar CD cuts guaranteed to generate system melt downs with components of less than sterling pedigree :B ).

But, I get your point.

My personal observation or opinion is that at least 75% of the excitement about SACD players is that for the money, they're much better than average CD players than similar units available at the same price. If someone told me that a new anti-terrorist law was passed outlawing SACD and the music police would come this week to confiscate all my SACD disks, I'd still keep my SCD777ES for the great job it does on CD for it's price.

On the otherhand, there are certainly those buying SACDs because of the sonics of the new disks, even in some cases getting sucked into music they might not otherwise purchase. It's like the watching Jay Leno on HDTV syndrome; you may not be a Jay Leno fan, but man, the picture is something else! Eventually the novelty wears off, but in the meantime, I've gotten into somethings I might ordinarily never have bought, and I'm actually enjoying them- even my daughter was surprised to see me bring home Jennifer Lopez "On the six", and that I actually listen to it frequently. Or James Taylor "Hourglass". The classics and jazz stuff, those are a no brainer, particularly some of the stunning new recordings that are all DSD. But even Sony's re-issues are a delight on my system.

Now, I'm just trying to figure out how to justify buying my next SACD player- it's easier than trying to convince myself to pop for an Ayre D1 or one of the other truly high end CD rigs, just because it's chump change in comparison.

'Course, if I ever played and won the lottery, I *would* own a D1, but that doesn't seem likely this morning.

Best regards,

Jon




Earth First!
_______________________________
We'll screw up the other planets later....

[Wireless]

I think people sometimes just don't want there to be a difference. I would rather cd sound as good as SACD or DVD-A, that way I don't have to buy a new player or spend thousands to replace my software collection. If I can find evidence to support my reluctance, the decision to sit back can be justified in my own mind.




John
My HT Picts

[Chip]

"I sure am glad your union Chip! We might have had to reposess that 555, hehe."

Lol Lex!


"Say, what kind of cables you using on that thing? Sounds like a great player, enjoy!"

I'm using my old Monster coax.... the one that my "BlackCat" varient replaced from my dvd player. This is the first CD player i've owned that has coax out. Guess i'm going to have to make a purchase..

- Chip




Chip Engle


"Concrete ain't a spectator sport"


<a href="http://www.htguide.com/bilder/index.cfm?fuseaction=arkivbilder&userid=0&selected userid=336" target="_blank">My HT