Imaging: Digital vs Analog

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  • John Holmes
    Moderator Emeritus
    • Aug 2000
    • 2703

    Imaging: Digital vs Analog

    I have noticed that when I play a cd via digital input(but in the Direct Mode) most lead vocals are dead center 99% of the time. However, when I play my turntable, the lead vocals seem to be off center quite often. Is there a valid reason for this? Has anyone else had a similar digital vs analog situation happen to them?




    "I came here, to chew bubble gum and kickass. And I'm all out of bubble gum!!!" My DVD's
    "I have come here, to chew bubblegum and kickass. And I'm all out of bubblegum!!!"
  • George Bellefontaine
    Moderator Emeritus
    • Jan 2001
    • 7637

    #2
    John-
    Can't say I've noticed this. I do have the odd cd where vocals either come more from the right or left, and have had the same on lps. Then there are many where vocals come from dead center. Perhaps it's the way it's mixed.
    George




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    • Andrew Pratt
      Moderator Emeritus
      • Aug 2000
      • 16507

      #3
      George when you're using the digital connections you are using the CD player as a transport and uing the DACs in the receiver. Wehn you use analog cables the CD player decodes the signal so you're using its DACs. It seems at least in your case that the DAC's in the receiver are of higher quality then the ones in the CD player thus the better imaging.

      Opps sorry didn't see that its a turn table...hmm I wonder if its the pre amp on the Phono input thats the problem. Maybe an external phono pre amp would help your imaging problem




      Comment

      • Wireless
        Senior Member
        • Feb 2001
        • 140

        #4
        John,

        I couldn't tell what kind of turntable and cartridge you have, but I have experienced the same thing when my cartridges azimuth is off, or when antiskating force is not correct.

        With misadjusted azimuth more pressure is applied to one side of the groove than the other, causing a higher voltage to be sent to the preamp for one of the channels, almost like adjusting your balance control, but with other consequences like poorer channel seperation, affecting imaging and soundstaging as well. It also causes uneven groove wear on your records and needle.

        It's been a long time since I fixed mine, but I remember I used a test record, a mutimeter, and some kind of y adapter that reversed phase in one of the channels (unless you have a mono setting on your preamp).

        My arm doesn't have antiskating, but I believe that should be set to the same as VTF.




        John
        My HT Picts
        John
        My HT Picts

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        • John Holmes
          Moderator Emeritus
          • Aug 2000
          • 2703

          #5
          Thanks all for the help.

          George,
          I tend to agree with the variance of mixes. This does make it harder to be accurate.

          Andrew,
          You brought up something that I did not consider...the preamp. But, after thinking about it, it shouldn't change because of software. Either the preamp works or it doesn't. And since it works on some, I ruled out the preamp.

          Wireless,
          I have a sony turntable (direct-drive). The cartridge has no name just the model# P40E. I bought this used a little over ten years ago, so all the settings are the same as I received it. The one is at 0.5 the other is at 1.8, I have know idea which is which (anti-skating vs weight).
          Any help would be appreciated!




          "I came here, to chew bubble gum and kickass. And I'm all out of bubble gum!!!" My DVD's
          "I have come here, to chew bubblegum and kickass. And I'm all out of bubblegum!!!"

          Comment

          • John Holmes
            Moderator Emeritus
            • Aug 2000
            • 2703

            #6
            Oh...What's a VTF?




            "I came here, to chew bubble gum and kickass. And I'm all out of bubble gum!!!" My DVD's
            "I have come here, to chew bubblegum and kickass. And I'm all out of bubblegum!!!"

            Comment

            • John Kotches
              Moderator Emeritus
              • Jan 2001
              • 140

              #7
              VTF = Vertical Tracking Force.

              Regards,




              ---
              Editor, PC/Home Theater
              Secrets of Home Theater and High Fidelity
              My Home Theater
              NEC LT-150 specific page.
              ---
              Editor, PC/Home Theater
              Secrets of Home Theater and High Fidelity
              My Home Theater
              NEC LT-150 specific page.

              Comment

              • John Holmes
                Moderator Emeritus
                • Aug 2000
                • 2703

                #8
                Thanks John. I well try to set it correctly.




                "I came here, to chew bubble gum and kickass. And I'm all out of bubble gum!!!" My DVD's
                "I have come here, to chew bubblegum and kickass. And I'm all out of bubblegum!!!"

                Comment

                • John Holmes
                  Moderator Emeritus
                  • Aug 2000
                  • 2703

                  #9
                  Well I got it fixed. Strange as it may seem, all it took was to move my right speaker back an inch and a half...go figure. I found this out from reading on 2ch speaker placement. Please don't ask me to explain why it worked but, now both digital and analog image correctly.

                  Thanks for all the support.




                  "I came here, to chew bubble gum and kickass. And I'm all out of bubble gum!!!" My DVD's
                  "I have come here, to chew bubblegum and kickass. And I'm all out of bubblegum!!!"

                  Comment

                  • Wireless
                    Senior Member
                    • Feb 2001
                    • 140

                    #10
                    That's great John. The VTF is the knob on the back of the arm. You might try setting the anti skating to 1.8 and see how it sounds and then to .18, see if it makes a difference.




                    John
                    My HT Picts
                    John
                    My HT Picts

                    Comment

                    • John Holmes
                      Moderator Emeritus
                      • Aug 2000
                      • 2703

                      #11
                      Okay Wireless I'll try that later today and let you know!




                      "I came here, to chew bubble gum and kickass. And I'm all out of bubble gum!!!" My DVD's
                      "I have come here, to chew bubblegum and kickass. And I'm all out of bubblegum!!!"

                      Comment

                      • Wireless
                        Senior Member
                        • Feb 2001
                        • 140

                        #12
                        I claim no liability for antiskating being set too high, causing all of your records to be played backwards, and devilish messages to be uncovered in old Lawrence Welk recordings




                        John
                        My HT Picts
                        John
                        My HT Picts

                        Comment

                        • John Holmes
                          Moderator Emeritus
                          • Aug 2000
                          • 2703

                          #13
                          Well, I heard no such devil recordings, however, after setting the anti-skate and the VTF from 0.5 to 1.8 I did hear alot of other things.

                          Tighter, more accurate mids, as well as increased dynamics. The soundstage is much more life like now. It doesn't have that "tinny" sound on highs
                          either. Just what I remember it sounding like years ago when I was a child, great natural music.

                          What is scary is, I have had this turntable for over ten years and this is the first time that it has been set-up correctly. I had always assumed (until recent) that it was my phono pre-amp in the intergrated amp and several receivers that I have owned. I just thought that I didn't spend enough money on those pieces of equipment to yeild good results in sound. Boy was I wrong!

                          Since meeting everyone through the forum(s), I have learned the importance of the little things. I recall reading in SGHT about this individual that spent $300,000.00 and still had bad sound. I never believed this to be possible...until now.:B

                          I know this has become long and I apologize, I just had to express my sincere gratitude to Wireless, John K, George, Andrew and all the members that take the time to help educate their fellow members on doing it right!

                          Thanks everyone!

                          P.S. I'm doing vinyl now baby!!!




                          "I came here, to chew bubble gum and kickass. And I'm all out of bubble gum!!!" My DVD's
                          "I have come here, to chew bubblegum and kickass. And I'm all out of bubblegum!!!"

                          Comment

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