External DACs (and room acoustics)

[madmac]

@mb225 : You could also not use all the pannels. Try 2 and see how that goes. More pannels means more sound absorption....including bass. Have thought about putting a few pannels on the ceiling?.

[Pio]

@mb225 : You could also not use all the pannels. Try 2 and see how that goes. More pannels means more sound absorption....including bass. Have thought about putting a few pannels on the ceiling?.

Right! And you're going to have to mess around with placement. I can get my 802Ds much closer to the rear wall than I could before treatment. You also have to give yourself time to adjust (trust me - this is not hocus pocus) - its like getting into a car that has the bass and treble cranked all the way up - when you put the tone controls back to "0" it take you some time to realize it sounds better than before.

Bass kick is in the upper bass region - like 120hz - and the snap is actually lower midrange. Again, play around with positioning, it took me months before I was totally happy with my system and I had to remove some bass trapping to accomplish it.

Try removing the 2" panels first and working with the 1" panels - to clear up the mids.

Try moving the 2" panels to run at an angle in your front corners. Please let us know how it works out.

[mb225]

So I had a chance to move the panels around and got some different and interesting results.

The panels make a huge difference. They really cleanup the mids and they take that “edge” off the highs. It really warms up the system a lot! In fact, I would say the bright sound it gone?! This is by far the best value upgrade I’ve made.

Now for the negative: The bass was perfect before the panels but the mids and highs were harsh. Now the mids and highs are great, but the bass isn’t as nice as before the panels. I still need to try moving the speakers around, but I don’t have many options for speaker placement. The panels are staying. What they do for the mids/highs outweighs their negative impact on the bass.

[madmac]

Describe the negative impact on the Bass?. More or less bass?. Boomy?. Not as tight?.

[mb225]

The bass is lacking.

Example, before treatment you could feel the bass with a kick-drum, now it’s just not there. You can hear it, but not feel it. Also, some more current songs would shake the room. Now, it’s missing.

It’s not boomy. It’s just lacking. I tried turning the bass up with the EQ but that didn’t sound right. It made everything sound muffled and the balance was lost.

[stuofsci02]

It may just be that with a proper acoustically setup room of your size the 803s just don't have the low end you are looking for. I had the same problem with my 804s. Upstairs in a smaller room they were everything I could ask for. Once I moved them downstairs to my 18' x 23' room bass was lacking for sure..

Mixing in my two 12" subs solved that problem (and I used to be a no subs for music guy).. But in a big room you can blend them very nicely.

[mb225]

It may just be that with a proper acoustically setup room of your size the 803s just don't have the low end you are looking for. I had the same problem with my 804s. Upstairs in a smaller room they were everything I could ask for. Once I moved them downstairs to my 18' x 23' room bass was lacking for sure..

Mixing in my two 12" subs solved that problem (and I used to be a no subs for music guy).. But in a big room you can blend them very nicely.

I was thinking the same thing. Maybe it's time to add a sub.

I've read rave reviews about the JL Fathom and was thinking of starting to save up for one.

Stuofsci02: Do you like your Emotiva subs?

[stuofsci02]

I was thinking the same thing. Maybe it's time to add a sub.

I've read rave reviews about the JL Fathom and was thinking of starting to save up for one.

Stuofsci02: Do you like your Emotiva subs?

I really like the Emo subs. First thing is they are really priced well, so using two of them is still easy on the wallet. Second, they are small - 15' cubed so placement is very easy. They also sound very good with the 804s and blend easily. In fact with the two of them I cannot tell I even have them on, except for the full bass.

The one thing they lack is a good finish. Mine are black ash and they look like cheap black speaker boxes. The good news is Emo has changed them to a satin black finish with rounded edges which apparently looks much better.

As good as the JL is, I always prefer to have subs in pairs to balance room modes. The JL's are so expensive I could not afford to do this.

BTW. There is a full review of the Ultra 12 at Audioholics.

http://www.audioholics.com/reviews/speakers/subwoofers/ultra-12

[mb225]

I wanted to give everyone an update. I tried moving around the panels but that didn’t really help much with the bass. Based on another tread posted on the forum about speaker placement, I decided to try moving the speakers around now that the panels are in place. I already played this game before the panels but everything changed when I added the acoustic treatment. The speakers are close to the corners and where close to a 1:1.2 (side wall:back wall) ratio; which I learned is kind of bad to be close to 1:1. I moved the speakers closer to the side walls and the bass came back. Things got very boomy if the speakers get too close to the wall behind the speakers. But when moving them close to the side walls it brings out the bass without getting too boomy. It’s still missing a little bit of punch, but overall, it’s so much better. I might play with plugging the ports this weekend.

[mb225]

I really can't believe how much speaker placement effects the sound! I moved the speakers 1 inch forward and 4 inches closer to the side walls and it's a significant difference! Very weird. :??

[madmac]

I really can't believe how much speaker placement effects the sound! I moved the speakers 1 inch forward and 4 inches closer to the side walls and it's a significant difference! Very weird. :??

Absolutely !!
A simple 1 inch movement forward, back, or to the sides makes a HUGE difference in how a speaker will sound and perform. As well, a one inch toe in or toe out will also affect the sound. It's best to slowly make these changes and listen awhile before making another movement change.

I would say speaker placement adjustments are the single biggest and cheapest way to improve your sound system. One standard and golden rule however is......keep them away from walls and corners as much as possible (Especially for the stereo mains). Normally. the further you bring a speaker forward into the room from the corners and sides, the better it will perform. :T

[Pio]

I really can't believe how much speaker placement effects the sound! I moved the speakers 1 inch forward and 4 inches closer to the side walls and it's a significant difference! Very weird. :??

+1 :T

[Prof]

This has been a great thread to read.

I just acquired my system (see post in B&W pictures) and was very worried about what my room acoustics would be like with lots of windows. The room is very large though and shaped like an amphitheater. I'd appreciate anyone's comments as to what room treatments may help, although I'm happy with the tone, just the imaging could be a little better.

Mb I listen to digital music on my Olive 4Hd. A lot of it 24 bit music. I took the olive into the dealer to trial my music on their krill amps and focal utopia speakers. It sounded flat. Then they plugged my olive into the Ps audio DAC and I couldn't believe the difference! I'm not talking 10% difference either - more like 50%. I was amazed and I bought It on the spot. You might like the filters on it to for different types of music - downside is the expense but it sounds as though you are committed to improving to your sound. I am over the moon with my DAC.

On another note (pardon the pun). But I bought my B&W BECAUSE of the warmth. Same reason I bought denon headphones over sennheiser. I hate bright edgy music. I was interested when you said B&W have that reputation...maybe the diamond tweeter does make the difference. My favorite music is female vocal - and I never tire or fatigue when listening to my system.

Bill

[dtb300]

I'd appreciate anyone's comments as to what room treatments may help, although I'm happy with the tone, just the imaging could be a little better.

Contact Bryan or Glenn at GIK Acoustics, or Ethan at Real Traps.

Check out the Room Acoustics Forum over at Audio Circle as they both visit there all the time. I even think GIK has their own Circle (forum).

These guys do this EVERYDAY for a living and will be more than glad to steer you in the right direction.

[mb225]

This has been a great thread to read.

I just acquired my system (see post in B&W pictures) and was very worried about what my room acoustics would be like with lots of windows. The room is very large though and shaped like an amphitheater. I'd appreciate anyone's comments as to what room treatments may help, although I'm happy with the tone, just the imaging could be a little better.

Hi Bill. Congratulations on the new system! Very nice! Very nice indeed! Also, welcome to the forum.

I was very resistant to change the acoustics of my room since room treatments tend to take the room down a bit (visually), but I have to say I'm very glad I did. By far the treatment has been the best improvement I've made. From my research I've found that acoustics can be very tricky and the "room" seems to be more critical than one would tend to believe. I worked with an engineer at Acoustical Solutions and he had me send him pictures of my room as well as measurements and my description of the problem. He told me that a lot of people think they need dampening but in fact most 2-channel setups would benefit from diffusion. My room could benefit from either, so I went with dampening b/c it looks a little better and was cheaper. :T

The treatments fixed so much! The system was no longer harsh and vocals sounded smoother and more accurate at the same time. I'm very happy, now I just need a little more bass. 8) Maybe I need a better amp? Maybe I just need a sub to help fill things in? I don't really know yet; this will have to be my next voyage.

digital music on my Olive 4Hd. A lot of it 24 bit music. I took the olive into the dealer to trial my music on their krill amps and focal utopia speakers. It sounded flat. Then they plugged my olive into the Ps audio DAC and I couldn't believe the difference! I'm not talking 10% difference either - more like 50%. I was amazed and I bought It on the spot. You might like the filters on it to for different types of music - downside is the expense but it sounds as though you are committed to improving to your sound. I am over the moon with my DAC.

Which PS Audio DAC are you using?

On another note (pardon the pun). But I bought my B&W BECAUSE of the warmth. Same reason I bought denon headphones over sennheiser. I hate bright edgy music. I was interested when you said B&W have that reputation...maybe the diamond tweeter does make the difference. My favorite music is female vocal - and I never tire or fatigue when listening to my system.

The "bright" thing was something I read (on this forum). A lot of people say B&W are "bright" and that's the "B&W signature sound". :blink: But I'm starting to believe you just need the right room.

[Prof]

Which PS Audio DAC are you using?

I'm using the PS PerfectWave DAC - review here - http://www.psaudio.com/ps/products/d...-dac?cat=audio and here http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/p...rfectwave.html

I'm very very impressed with the vastly improved sound over the internal DAC in the Olive which I now bypass using the digital output (coaxial). Not sure I can use the proprietry I-squared interface with the olive yet thorugh HDMI - looking into that.

(I have no conflicts of interest to declare)...

Prof