I moved from 805 to 804

[Jnorth1178]

I finally did it == moved from 805s to 804s. I wish I could hsve had more time to a/b the two, though I am well pleased with the 804s. It takes some getting used to however. The highs seem a tad strident and the mid range seems a bit harsh sounding. Ia that the British influence? I am driving them with a Prima Luna preamp and amp. I thought the tubes would tend to soften the sound somewhat. Are there tubes that would change the sound? I am new at this. Would appreciate any thoughts you might have. JNorth1178

[PewterTA]

The 805s and 804s should sound very similar with the 804s having a little more low end to them. It could be something to do with your amp/pre, but I would think with using the tubes you wouldn't be having that problem.

There are some really nice tubes out there that might help do the trick. I've heard some really good things from the recent batches of Eltro. Harmonic Tubes...might want to check into them.

One thing to question though, is the 804s brand new?! If so, you might need to give them some time to open up and "come into their own." Whether you believe it or not, there is "soemthing" to breaking speakers in.

[Jnorth1178]

jHi Pewter TA

tHANKS FOR YOUR COMMENTS. yES THE 804S ARE RIGHT OUT OF THE BOX, SO MAYBE i NEED TO BE A BIT MORE PATIENT AND GIVE THEM A CHANCE TO GET SETTLED IN. yOU MENTIONED THE ELTRO HARMONIC TUBES. wHAT DO I LOOK FOR? IS THAT A TYPE TUBE OR IS IT A BRAND NAME? YOU CAN SEE HOW MUCH OF A NEOPHITE i AM? jnORTH1178

[Hdale85]

It's a Brand and a Type. Look on ebay or umm...there are some other tube sites google for them probably. You may wan't to post somewhere about what tubes are compatible with your setup. Also I wouldn't change any tubes or anything until you have at least 40-80 hours on the speakers.

[GregLett]

JNorth1178,

After you have put at least 100 hours on them, give Kevin at Upscale Audio a call. Tubes do change the sound of the pre. if you are still running the stock tubes you might want to change them. I changed mine and it did improve the sound. I just ordered a new set of tubes (arrived today) I will let things simmer for a few days to see how I like them.

I have a spare set of Tubes (HP) if you are ever interested in trying them, shoot me a PM.

[Jnorth1178]

Tubes

Soon after I got my PM's I did contact Kevin and at his suggestion switched from my original tubes. I now have some CV4003, Mallard 12ax7's, 5ar4/s,mallards 12xu7's, and cv4003. I am not very tube literate. At this point I need to rely on some of you fellows who understand the nuances ofthe different tubes. I would guess I have about 50 hours now on my speakers. I have been surprised that they are as sharp as they are, even strident in the upper registers. Thanks for any suggestions. JNorth1178

[RobP]

J,

I am not much help on the tubes, but I can comment on your B&W's, I went from a N805 to a N803 and found pretty much what you are talking about, but with some patience, time, equipment changes, and room treatment, all of that went away. The most important piece of the puzzle for me was the room treatments.

[Jnorth1178]

Thanks for your comments. Wondering what equipment change you made? I just recently got in to tubes via the Prima Luna's.
So I am not anxious to buy any new amps or preamps. My primary souce is a Cambridge CD , Azur 840c.My room may be the culprit. The system is in my home study, a room 12x12 but with book shelves on three walls. Lets hope that time will mellow out the speakers or time will let me adjust my hearing. Thanks. JNorth1178 (Springfield, Mo.)

[GregLett]

I've lived with both the Cambridge 740c and 840c. The 840 is very unforgiving of poor recordings, and it does not match that well with the Prologue3 IMO. The 740 was actually a little better. I had the same complaints you have about the sound. When I tried it with the Cary SLP98 I liked the sound much more.

I'm actually not running the 840 anymore, I'm using the Benchmark DAC1 and a CAL Audio CL-20.

[GregLett]

One more thing. If you do not have power conditioning on the PrimaLuna you might want to look into that. I have complained since I moved to my new room about the sound of my system being grainy. I noticed improvements with power cords and tubes but, I think I might have finally done it. I added an APC unit and the sound is clean. I will see how it is in a few more days.

[Briz vegas]

I have been surprised that they are as sharp as they are, even strident in the upper registers. Thanks for any suggestions. JNorth1178

I run my 804s with Naim CD5x/flatcap and a Conrad Johnson CA200 with 185w (8ohm) 300w (4ohm). What you describe is nothing like what I hear.
It certainly sounds like there is a big problem somewhere.

Unlike PewterTA I think the tubes are the likely culprit, not the pre-amp :T but the power amp :nonod: .

Other culprits could be
1. reflections in the room from hard surfaces
2. the source (CD player)
3. interconnects, speaker wire and even power cables
4. broken speakers (unlikely but hey not impossible)

What was your experience with the 805S?

The 804 and 805 are identical in tweeter and associated crossover so that aspect of the sound should be no different. If it is different then I suspect that your amp in under considerable stress. 804s midrange is more revealing than 805 (which is no slouch either) - that does not mean harsh unless it is a very poor recording. With the right electronics that FST means a window into the recording that should make you grin from ear to ear (I've been doing alot of that recently).

Tubes should be fine with the relatively easy load from the 805s. The 804S is a different beast which drops down to 3ohms. I don't know anyone that would contempate a modest tube power amp with these speakers (including 2 B&W dealers and 2 or three non-B&W dealers, various audiophiles and my 2 cats for example). Now that is not to say that you cannot get a tube amp to do the business, there are some big tube power amps out there, but a 8w SET or other modest output design - hmmm.

I would suggest talking to Karma on this forum but judging by his comments he focuses on ultra high end stuff and he is running the 805s with tubes, not the 804s.

If you can go and listen to some 804s running on Classe or similar - then you will get an idea of what they are capable of.

Good luck with your quest.

[Jnorth1178]

Thanks foryour response, Briz. I fear I have jumped in too far and too deep and got myself in a peck of trouble. I thought the Prima L. 6 would have enough power to drive the 804s. If I kept my preamp and went back to a ss for my amp,would that be a wise match? If that would give me the power I need could you suggest an amp that you like? With the investment I have thus far, I could not go over a $1000. Alll I want is afull warm and resonent sound. Maybe the problem is me, an 89 year old duffer trying to be a kid again! Any helpyou can give will be greatly appreciated. I see you are in Australia. My daughter is in NZ this week. Small world. JNorth1178

[Briz vegas]

Small world indeed.

I reckon you never grow out of hifi. Its great to hear that you are still into getting the perfect sound.

First thing I noticed is that those amps have 2,4 and 8 ohm taps. Which ones are you using. The 804s may well be suited to the 4ohm tap rather than the 8ohm. If you have not tried this I would give each of those taps a go with both sets of tubes (originals and the replacement set). The other thing that my tube rolling friends are into is tube dampers - I don't know much about them but I'm told that they can make a nice improvement.

An after market power cord can also help, but audition before buying as results vary alot (for example Gregletts problem above was his power supply. Greg - great to hear you found the solution :T )

If all of that does not work out and the speakers are still sounding all wrong after about 100 hours then I would be looking to audition alternative SS amps.

Those Prima Luna prologue 6 monoblock amps are $2600 (US) a pair. You say you paid around a grand for them - or is that the maximum additional investment. We have some hifi shops in Australia that will give very good trade-in prices on gear - surely you could do the same in the US.

I read about the prologue 6 here http://www.smarthouse.com.au/Reviews...Hi_Fi/Q5N8G4Q5

Smarthouse is not the most authoritative rag (I think they use other peoples reviews) but the article has a couple of interesting points. Firstly the power amps are 70watts so they have a little bit of grunt (ie they are not 8 or 16 watts like some - which is fine with the right speakers). Secondly the amp sounds different with different speakers. In the section about sound quality he says the Mordaunt Short performance 6 sounded light in the midband and upper bass. Looking at the Stereophile review the Performance 6 is a easier load than an 804s. Other speakers had a very different character. This review suggests to me that the sound you get is very dependant on system synergy - it will like some speakers and not others.

Regarding alternative SS amps - if you like the tube sound I would suggest the Quad 909

http://www.stereotimes.com/amp081602.shtml

It has a great midband which is what many folks like about tube amps. I would say definitely worth an audition. Current US pricing is $1350 - with a 10% discount that could almost be affordable.

Most important thing is to enjoy the process of getting it right - it makes the good sound at the end of the process even more enjoyable.

[Briz vegas]

PS - just read that review again- I am thinking more and more that the prologue 6 is the issue - I quote

"Power output is impressive, though the amplifier can become shrill in the midrange and treble when played at too high a volume (not a traditional valve characteristic)".

Actually this review is interesting. They seem to be saying yeah its ok, they give it a 4 star rating, but when you read all the detail its not flattering at all.

[Jnorth1178]

I will try changing the ohms and see what that will do. Re: the $1000.00 I was saying that was about all I could spare having put $3600 in the 804s. I called a high end stereo shop in Kansas City this morning. I bought my PR there. His assessment of my problem is that B&Ws are not well matched to Tubes. He suggested that I should ditch one or the other. But if I decided to give up the PLs, I would not be able to get in to a SS that would do the job for much less than $3000. It's a quagmuire. Especially when you are not a millionaire. Then too, at aforesaid 89 I need to mske my decisions rather quickly if I want any time to listen to the "Perfect" sound. I've even stopped buying green bananas. Seriosly, I appreciate the time you have given to my problem. I will surely look in to the Quads if I decide to give up my PL 6. I did go down to my local dealer today, and shared with him my lack of enthusiasm for the 804s. He has agreed to come out and listen to them with the PLs next week.

[Briz vegas]

I think that is what politicians call a road map to success.

I assume it is the 804 dealer who is coming out. Hifi dealers are an interesting bunch (as are their customers) - if you get a good one that will work with you and your budget then you are set.

Yes you can easily spend $3000US on amplification (my control amp is worth double that) but you can also get some really nice compromises. After all the "value" for the dollar aspect starts to drop off quickly after a certain point.

Could not find you a local dealer for Quad - but that was just one suggestion.

http://www.iagamerica.com/quad/dealers.htm

There are always a number of options out there near your price range that will put that smile back on your face, even if it requires second hand gear (some folks swear by it - my Naim power supply is second hand and I am very pleased with it)

Let us know how you go.

[Jnorth1178]

Took off a few days for the holidays. While in Chicago I called the B &W US Center. I stated my problem to a voice mail, and surprise, a couple of hours later, I got a call from their tech person. We chatted for several minutes. I asked him if B&Ws and tubes were compatible? Of course, he said they were. Then, he suggested that the problem could be the lack of power in my amp. He asked where on the volume dial did I have to go in order to get a comfortable listening level. I told him that it was between 9 and 10 o clock. He said that knocked his 'lack of power' theory out. He then suggested that when my local dealer comes out to do a critique, have him bring a ss along and do an a/b comparison between the ss and my prima lunas. That i will do tomorrow. Happy New Year all. JbNorth1178

[Briz vegas]

I still have my money on the power amp being part of the problem. I guess the ball is in your dealers court at this point in time.

Personally I think more dealers should offer a home evaluation service. IE they come to you as the first step in an upgrade - evaluate what you have and what you like/don't like then go from there. Of course this assumes that they know their stuff when it comes to setting up a system. I believe that you need to do some sort of training to sell B&W maybe they could have accredited installation ProfessionALs - call them i-Pals or something like that.

How many folks out there would pay for this service I wonder - ie some sort of call out evaluation fee, maybe a report at the end of it, something like that.

Dear Mr North

Your system evaluation is as follows

Room - blah blah
Setup - blah blah
Audio Source one - etc etc

With recommendations at the end. That would put the emphasis on the service and the sound that you want to hear rather than the components.

Ideal for some but not for others I guess.

[GregLett]

Good luck finding a dealer that's willing. I would put my money power conditioning and 840 match up. I found that only the best recordings
was good with the 840 and the PrimaLuna does not like dirty power.
A quality power cord also helped.

[Jnorth1178]

Britz: I like your proposal. I guess we can fantacize, can't we? Y ou suggested the "Quads". Do you have any other suggestion for a ss amp to drive the 804s? I am not very knowledgable on the higher end stuff. Would appreciate any help you can give me. My dealer hasn't come out yet, but I don't trust his judgment when it comes to the better equipment. He did show me a couple of McInstoshs,but they are way out of my price range. I don't know the make of the one the kansas City dealer was recommending for $3000. He said you couldn't get anything that really was "Hi Fi" for much less than that. Maybe I am in the wrong hobby. JNOrth

[Jnorth1178]

Dear Greglett: Thanks for your response. You gave me something more to think about. Could you say a bit more about the power conditionaire. How will it improve the souns quality of my 804s? And, what exactly is meant by 'dirty power'? You can see I need all the help I can get And too, how can you tell a good cd from a poor one before putting it on the player? I am using a Cambridge Azui 840C cd player. It too is rather picky when it comes to poor cds. Just wondere if there is a brand to look for that is above the ordinary cds you find on the shelf? Thanks for you input? JNorth

[GregLett]

Dear Greglett: Thanks for your response. You gave me something more to think about. Could you say a bit more about the power conditionaire. How will it improve the souns quality of my 804s? And, what exactly is meant by 'dirty power'? You can see I need all the help I can get And too, how can you tell a good cd from a poor one before putting it on the player? I am using a Cambridge Azui 840C cd player. It too is rather picky when it comes to poor cds. Just wondere if there is a brand to look for that is above the ordinary cds you find on the shelf? Thanks for you input? JNorth

Jnorth1178,

The power in you home has noise injected into it by things like the refrigerator and hair dryers. The power conditioner isolates you equipment from that. Some audio equipment have better power supplies to deal with that but if you look at most reviews they always have some sort of power conditioner. The power in my house also fluctuates between 120V and 130V. I didn't reliaze that untill I put in the conditioner. The point is power is very important to
your sound.

The other thing that has an effect on equipment is the power cord. I never believed this until I heard it for myself. I had the same problem you described
the power cord cleaned up much of it, and the conditioner even more.

I owned a Jolida JD100 CD player before getting the 740. Looking back I wish I had kept the Jolida. The Cambridge gives you more detail, but the Jolida was more musical. What good is a system that does not allow you to enjoy most of the music you like. Right now I have a CAL audio player with a Benchmark DAC.

[GregLett]

Something to Try

Jnorth1178,

I have an idea. If you have a DVD or another CD player in the house, try using that as your source instead of the Cambridge. Just curious.

[Jnorth1178]

Dear Briz You had mentioned the Quad amp. I noticed the 909 is on Audiobon today. Is that one you would recommend.? Could it drive the 804s? Appreciate your adivice. JNorth

[Jnorth1178]

Dear Greglett: I started a 'reply' to you, hit the wrong key and don't know where it went. So will try again. My dealer is coming to the house to critique my setup. I will certainly ask him about both the power conditioner and the power cord. Thanks a bunch for the suggestions. JNorth

[Briz vegas]

Dear Briz You had mentioned the Quad amp. I noticed the 909 is on Audiobon today. Is that one you would recommend.? Could it drive the 804s? Appreciate your adivice. JNorth

Yes the 909 was the amp I was suggesting. If you type in Audiogon and Quad into Google you will find some discussion about the 909 that will give you a few other opinions. There are also a few reviews on the web if you do a search.

As for other amps at that price I am not the best person to ask. I was struggling to find an affordable amp locally for my 804s and the Quad was the only one on my shopping list in that price range. I then decided the the logical path for me was to spend more and trade up to another Conrad Johnson. If I was still looking at that price point I guess Rotel is the other brand I would look at although that is more by their reputation than anything else. Rotel 1080 go for about $1000 I believe

I would suggest that the Quad is the amp at that pricepoint if you are looking for nice vocals and the subtlies of acoustic instruments. Rotel would probably give you more of a punchy sound. From a power perspective the 909 would have no problem with the 804, the Rotel would have more power on tap but I suspect less class. Ask the question on the Rotel forum down the page and see what comes back - its a very popular forum.

Mc gear is like my Conrad Johnson - great if you can afford it but a big stretch otherwise.

[bigburner]

I finally did it == moved from 805s to 804s. I wish I could hsve had more time to a/b the two, though I am well pleased with the 804s. It takes some getting used to however. The highs seem a tad strident and the mid range seems a bit harsh sounding. Ia that the British influence? I am driving them with a Prima Luna preamp and amp. I thought the tubes would tend to soften the sound somewhat. Are there tubes that would change the sound? I am new at this. Would appreciate any thoughts you might have. JNorth1178

Hi JNorth1178,

You asked for any thoughts that we might have...

My suggestion is to avoid wasting time on finding the perfect solution because you'll miss so much good music while you are searching for the holy grail of perfect sound.

Are the highs strident and the mid range a bit harsh sounding all the time? Some recordings are just like that. Perhaps it's not that bad and you could enjoy what you've got?

Alternatively you could try the Rotel RC-1082 preamp that I've just bought. It's got two old fashioned knobs on it called Bass and Treble.

Just a thought.

All the best,
Nigel.

[Briz vegas]

You may be right about the change of focus Bigburner - a quick scan of Jnorths recent upgrades indicates alot of changes within the same broad price bracket (1070 - 1090, Prima Luna). Great if you just like buying and selling stuff - a road to frustration if you are expecting audio nirvana.

Good gear recognises the sonic pitfalls of the price bracket and works around them so you get great music without the nasties from price driven limitations. Quad 11L speakers are a good example of this - focus on the midrange, tone down the bass and treble that modest amps struggle with and the result is great music. The number of times I have heard great music in my local hifi store and it was from these affordable little guys. Going to more and more revealing speakers sometimes just reveals the limitations of the rest of your gear.

This does seem to be his first "upgrade" that has resulted in problems. I guess the choice is to either backtrack to the 805s or look at some amp options. Ideally I would say find a used Classe integrated or Mcintosh amp for the 804s. The Quad 909 at the price does the 11L trick of focusing on what is most important for good music - but it ain't no Classe.

PS My upgrade path consists of cables from here on in - I've heard my audio nirvana and it was with my electronics and speakers. I aim to be like bigburner and focus on the music (if he can have a new pre-amp and be music focused then I can gradually trade up my cables and do the same :-)

[Jnorth1178]

To bring you all up to date on my saga. My friendly dealer came to my house this molrning and spent four hours working on my system. He recognized immediately what I had been complaining about. He replaced all of my intereconnect cables and put in a line conditioner also. It was amazing the improvement in the tonal quality -- what had been a high pitched screech became a violin and viola, two distinct sounds. He hasn't given me the billlyet. I imagine it will set me back a couple of tanks of gas, but I felt I was so close to the sound I wanted, why not go for it. Thanks to all of you for your kind suggestions and good advice. JNorth

[GregLett]

Great :T

[Briz vegas]

Three cheers for the dealer. Glad to hear you are happy.

So you get to keep your tubes- excellent. You can't really mention brands but what sort of construction is the interconnect - Copper, silver over copper, etc and which power conditioner is it? Not that I have gotten round to trying that one recommended to me recently......yet.

Tubes are great if you can get them to work with your speakers. I'm looking forward to hearing a friends Quad11L - Jas Bravo 2.4 - Audiolab hifi in its new home environment this weekend. My favourite system at present is a Linn LP12- Valhalla- Jas Audio Array (pre and power) - Altec "voice of the theatre" setup - not pretty but the sound is just so natural that you can forget about the stereo and just get into the music - this thing never seems to put a foot wrong when it comes to enjoying a performance.

[Karma]

I would suggest talking to Karma on this forum but judging by his comments he focuses on ultra high end stuff and he is running the 805s with tubes, not the 804s.

HI All,
I just picked up on this thread and noticed my name mentioned. I'm going to have to learn to write more clearly because there is a misunderstanding here.

While I do have Audio Research tube equipment powering the music system in my main listening room, my bedroom HT/805S system is powered by Krell. I am definitely a tube person but given the way I use my bedroom system (background FM, CD music sometimes, and mostly movies) it was just not practical to use tube equipment because of the maintenance issue and the fact that it is a 5.1 system (I would need 5 tube channels plus a tube processor). I actually have zero experience with B&W speakers and tubes. I have not been curious enough to hook up my 805S's up to my tube system.

To do the test properly it would be a lot of work. I have everything in the room tuned to my electrostatic speakers, very different animals, so it would not be fair to the 805S's. But I have no doubt at all they would sound wonderful if the room were properly set up for them. But not as good as the normal Martin Logan CLS IIA resident speakers (plus dual subs) which are pretty hard to beat.

The two systems are so completely different that comparisons are difficult. I do like the Krell and B&W combo a lot. The basic character of the sound is similar in that both systems follow my goals of honest sound that does not grate on my ears. The primary difference lies the area or resolution and soundstaging - the ability of the system to place me in the recording venue. But the bedroom system is a worthy system. I try hard to not compare them mentally. The main system is so much more expensive and sophisticated that all I would end up with is dissatisfaction with the bedroom system. I don't see much point in that.

Sparky

[c019740]

I have N804's and have had them for quite a while. I went to tubes about 5 years ago and feel that it made a world of difference in a positive way. I've got Cary amps and preamp and feel a much warmer sound while bringing out the highs and the bass. So go out, take your time and find a nice system at A-gon. You'll be happy you did.

[dknightd]

What I don't understand is why would new interconnects and power conditioner make such a difference with the 804, but not having before with the 805 was OK?

Did you dealer move your speakers? That may have made as much of a difference.

Glad you are happier now. That is the goal

[Jnorth1178]

I was having the same problem with the 805s, and thought by moving to the 804s I would get more base and midrange. Which I did but, of course, the same problem with the highs continued. I wish I knew more about the electronics involved. All I can go by are my 'ears', and when my dealer, friend, got thru it all did sound much better. He also brought out a $3000 McIntosh just to try an a/b test with my Prima Lunas. The Mac was just out of the box, but we both agreed that the PL held their own with the Mac. If the Mac had delivered totally differrent and improved sonics I would have made the switch. I guess I am at the place now, as one of you knowledgable fellows said, "I should sit back and enjoy the music.". JNorth P.S. In re. to Briz Vegas questions. I will check with our dealer and get back to you with the specifics of cable and Line Conditioner.

[Briz vegas]

:t :T :T :T

[Jnorth1178]

Hi: Britz asked the other day What cords and line conditioner I had gotten. Thew line conditioner us a Panamax MAX5520 and the cords are: Three Audio QuestNRG2 and one Audio Quest King Cobra 2m. Being ignorant in these things, does this give you any idea of what I have. I do know that it has improved the sound tremendously. While at the same time reducing my bank balance noticeably! JNorth

[GregLett]

Hi: Britz asked the other day What cords and line conditioner I had gotten. Thew line conditioner us a Panamax MAX5520 and the cords are: Three Audio QuestNRG2 and one Audio Quest King Cobra 2m. Being ignorant in these things, does this give you any idea of what I have. I do know that it has improved the sound tremendously. While at the same time reducing my bank balance noticeably! JNorth

Welcome to high end audio