"Best" Sub for two channel audio

[georgev]

What sub(say under $5000.00) would you reccommend for pure two cahnnel audio in the following system. i.e most musical? etc.
The system is Mark levinson front end and amplification(ML 336) driving the B&W 802's.
What I feel is lacking is a fullness at low volumes. I don't want movie type bass, but want to experience a musical fullness.
Hope I am making sense.

[Nick M]

I love the Velodyne Digital Drives.

Equalization is important for my listening space, and the DD cabinets are dead quiet along with the tight servo controlled cone.

I'm currently running Paradigm Signature S4's fed with a Rotel stack.
Looking to pick up a pair of DD-12's myself.

Good Luck!

[dtb300]

My take on this for Music Subs. These will not hit the top of the charts for sound output but will play and match well to a very wide range of speaker systems from cones to ribbons to planars:


Almost any Servo-Based Sub and add the Velodyne SMS-1 to it. Below are the ones I would consider:

JL Fathom F113 Sub
Paradigm Servo-15 v2
Martin Logan Decent

DD line of subs from Velodyne - due to the built in Sub EQ system

New Subs from Mark Seaton - Submersive and MFW-15 - I have not heard them but they are getting some very good write ups on them.

The ACI Maestro also has received many great reviews on it, but again I have never heard it to make a statement about it.

Room treatments are also highly recommended to enhance the ability to play good bass in your room and setup. Treatments are some of the best advancements I have added to my system in a cost versus performance ratio.

[twitch54]

I'll add my vote for the "DD" series of subs from Velodyne, I'm presently using the DD-15 in my 2.1 set-up and I'm very happy with it along with the ease of the built in SMS.

BTW, Dan is right........ be sure to pay attention to room acoustics as well !!

[Hdale85]

How much are the DD12's?

[warnerwh]

Using the PE RS series HiFi 15 inchers would be my first choice unless I didn't have any spare time. Of course you have to build the boxes yourself but you can have them be nice as you can afford and have excellent very very high quality bass.

For equalization I'd use the Behringer DEQ 2496. Apparently the Velodyne SMS has a software problem and distortion using it was awful. This is posted at Home Theater Shack or AVS I think with measurements and graphs. Not only is the Behringer less money but it's more versatile too. Check out the Missions Impossible forum here.

[dtb300]

For equalization I'd use the Behringer DEQ 2496. Apparently the Velodyne SMS has a software problem and distortion using it was awful. This is posted at Home Theater Shack or AVS I think with measurements and graphs. Not only is the Behringer less money but it's more versatile too. Check out the Missions Impossible forum here.

Velodyne is aware of this issue and working on a new software release which is due out shortly - as mentioned over at AVS. Everything you need for EQing comes with it.

The Behringer is also a good device to use but not quite as easy to use for the non-technical or non-tinkering user. The connections are XLR only which people should be aware of, but adapters can be used. You also need to purchase a microphone for it. You do get 10 bands of parametric with the Behringer versus 8 on the Velodyne.

Either choice is an excellent addition for a sub.

[georgev]

With the Velodyne DD subs, would one still need sth. like the SMS 1?
Sounds like there are a lot of takers for the Velos.

[Nick M]

"SMS function" is built in, and it comes with everything you need. Just feed it a signal, and plug the video out from the sub into a monitor. Use the included mic and have at it.

Just make sure you buy more sub than you need for the head room and added clarity that lends. Although the DD's are servo controlled so you'll just hit a wall with output (which just sounds anemic rather than distorted).

Amazingly transparent if set up right.

Amazingly expensive too - which is why I have yet to pick up a pair.
I'm shopping for used because new is simply too much for my rationale.

The 10", 12", 15", and 18" DD's have MSRPs of $2495, $2995, $3995, and $4995 respectively. You can often find them 25-30% less at places on the web that sell kinda "backdoor" without the official warranty. They also pop up on Audiogon for around half of MSRP now and then.

Good luck!

[LikeCoiledSteel]

Check out the Rels, they have been known to be one of the musical subs.

[fvoelling]

If you want the best and have the suitable space, do a search on IB (Infinite Baffle) subs, or visit the IB forum:

http://ibsubwoofers.proboards51.com/index.cgi?board=talk

[imbeaujp]

Hello,

Have you consider a DIY project for your subs ? You could built 2 good subs to use in stereo. I am currently in a subwoofer project to add deep sub to my NS-1000. I want HI-FI subs that could also give a good theater feeling. I selected a closed box with passive radiator (to have small boxes and good output).

Here is the components:

2 Pearless XXLS dirvers 4 Ohms
2 Pearless Passive radiators
1 Behriger DSP1124 parametric EQ (Feedback Destroyer Pro)
1 ROTEL RB-1080 Amplifier (200 Watts, 8 Ohms, 1000 damping factor)

Note : I already got the ROTEL so that is why I use it, but you could use any good amp or plate amp.

[georgev]

I'm not very good at DIY, so will have to buy a sub.
We don't get the JL Fathom here. so that's out.
I have also heard about the REL's being musical but they don't have the built in eq.
Perhaps the Velodynes.
How do I connect it? My pre amp(Mark Levinson 380S) does not have a sub out.

[twitch54]

Perhaps the Velodynes.
How do I connect it? My pre amp(Mark Levinson 380S) does not have a sub out.

How many pairs of 'main outs' does your pre have ? MY ARC LS-26 has two, therefore one pair to the amp and the other to the DD-15, works perfect.

[8thDwarf]

I would like to listen to a Epik Conquest

Web postings about it have me very interested. If what's posted is true it's agile, big, built decent, heavy and achieves high output down to 12hz in a large room. An 18 inch 250 pound powered sub shipped in a wooden crate.

[warnerwh]

For 5 grand you have enough money to pay a cabinet maker for your boxes. Screwing the drivers down I'm sure anyone can do.

One benefit is that you can get a finish that matches the rest of your room. Maybe a very luxurious veneer. You can also include the Behringer and microphone. Using REW, a free program, you can dial in those subs to perfection. The SMS has been measured by a guy at Home Theater Shack. Once you read that thread regarding distortion and performance compared to the Behringer you'd feel stupid to buy the SMS-1 right now.

Ask on the diy forum. Someone will be able to design your system for you if you like. This is just me but for less money the Behringer is far better than the SMS. As a matter of fact you really can get by with the DSP1124P just fine and REW is programmed to use it. They're about 100 bucks new on Ebay.

Drivers need to be the Reference Series HiFi 15". Don't take my word for it, you have world class speaker designers in the DIY forum. Only you have enough money to pay someone to do most of the diy.

My music system sub is merely to augment my speakers in the first octave. I asked all over what would be the best sealed sub driver for the highest quality bass reproduction. The answer is above. They only cost 160 plus shipping and Parts Express should have free shipping coming soon. I had been ready to pay twice that.

You want quality. This is as good and more than likely better quality than you're going to get using the commercial subs you're looking at. Don't believe me, ask in the diy forum. My apologies if I'm driving this too far but you sound like me. Bass is extremely important and is the foundation for music.

Best wishes either way you go.

[Charles]

Another Velodyne DD fan here. Amazing after getting everything set up.

[artv4]

i have to agree with Nicholas Mosher, the velodyne dd series is the best to go with your setup!!!

also, if possible get two....... why not

[warnerwh]

Here's a link regarding the SMS vs Behringer: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=927792

Be sure to look at the measurements closely. 8O

Apparently Velodyne says the new software whttp://www.htguide.com/forum/editpost.php4?do=editpost&p=367236#
will be out shortly which is what they said a month and a half ago. The Behringer takes a little brains to use but is very easy once you learn it a bit.

I'd hate to pay thousands for a sub and find out I could have had a nicer finish and easily the accuracy or better for less cash. You should at least ask on the diy forum.

Let me assure you for we can outperform anything Velodyne makes, period. Having your choice of professionally installed veneer can take it to another level. Don't let your wife look at them til you narrow it down because on some veneers one sheet can be several hundred dollars.

These are my opinions but if you ask the world class speaker designers in the diy forum you'll see that they agree. This is only if you truly want the best.

[spyboy]

I would get either two Velo DD-15's, or one Velo DD-18.

[dtb300]

There are many great subs out in the world which surpass the Velodyne subs. While the Velo's are nice, there are better.

Forget all the slamming, with good and bad about bass EQ systems, as treating your room is a far better solution to start with. EQing can be done later on a trial basis to see what you think.

You need to get out and listen to subs, even if it requires hours of driving to do so. The subs mentioned are of significant cost, which means you need to make sure of what you are getting. It has to match your liking and your needs.

DIYing is a great solution for making a great product, but you have to be "into" the DIY thing - some are, and some are not.

[george_k]

I've been eyeing products from MJ Acoustics (2x Reference 200's) as replacements for my single Paradigm Servo-15.

Servo-15 is a great sub, I just wish it had speaker-level inputs.

[zmanbands]

Official Velodyne Support Thread

georgev, here is the site. http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...04306&page=131 There is an extremely knowledgeable Velodyne employee on this site. His name is Curt C. There are 131 pages. this link puts you at the end or current time. Ask Curt. Tell your system ang room volume and configuration. He will give great answers. It's easy to get the wrong velodyne sub or too small a one or not the correct effeciency match for your speakers. I know I got the first sub wrong and Curt straightened me out. http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...04306&page=131

[georgev]

Thanks, will do.
I have finally also made contact with the guys from JL Audio, and have also shortlisted the Fathom series.
Problem is I am many thousands of kms away, so cannot audition the JL subs.

[georgev]

How many pairs of 'main outs' does your pre have ? MY ARC LS-26 has two, therefore one pair to the amp and the other to the DD-15, works perfect.

My pre amp has two pairs; one balanced and one single ended. So how will that work.
Does that mean that my speakers will still run full range? Also will the fact that I am not sending only low frequency signals to the sub be a problem?

Is there room/necessity for an external active crossover? e.g. the Behringer DCX 2496?

[twitch54]

My pre amp has two pairs; one balanced and one single ended. So how will that work.
Does that mean that my speakers will still run full range? Also will the fact that I am not sending only low frequency signals to the sub be a problem?

Is there room/necessity for an external active crossover? e.g. the Behringer DCX 2496?

It works just the way I said, yes your main L/R speakers operate full range (at least that's how I'm doing it). The sub receives the same full range signal and it's internal cross-over / slope adj allow the proper integration with ones main L/R speakers. This is the way I prefer it and believe works best as a 2.1 set-up. Again , keep in mind, I'm using a Servo based sub with built - in bass mgmt system (DD-15).

Now with you having a pair of balanced and a pair of single ended outputs on your pre, hopefully you have the flexibility between your amp and sub in so far as input connections go.