Krell TAS or the Classe 5200???

[chinets]

Hi All,
A friend of mine is contimplating to buy a Krell Tas 5x200W amp, or the Classe 5200 also 5x200W.

Which is in your opinion a better amp, knowing that both are the same price( NEW of Course ), He is 50% music and 50% HT, so they both have to sound good ,or let us put it this way ,awsome in Music and HT?? For 5 channel music, Multichannel SACD and DVD-A and ByPass Stereo in Music, and full Multichannel In Video HT!!!!

He is driving B&W 803s for front with 804s for rear and HTM 1 for Center and 2 ASW 855 subs.

Could you help this dear friend of mine, He is desperate and knows I am a member of this forum so here goes??? ;x(

Thanks guys!!

God Bless!!!

[Karma]

HI,
Chinets, you have been around this forum long enough so I know you know there is only one answer. He must listen to both on the speakers he will use and make up his own mind. That probably means a home audition. That may be a problem but there are dealers that offer mail order home demos. He just needs to find them.

Sparky

[dtb300]

Which is in your opinion a better amp, knowing that both are the same price

Very simple answer...

1. Depends on the other equipment involved - system synergy
2. Depends on the room equipment is located in - Room Acoustics Effect
3. Depends on which one the owner likes the sound of better - this is the real answer - and that will be the best amp

Dan

[chinets]

He can't listen to any of the two amps as he has to order it from the Uk and he lives in the UAE with ONLY my ears and you guys to give him the TRUST to go ahead with one of these amps.
I personally proposed The TAS Krell but that is ONLY my opinion. That is why I need your opinion and He will never be able to do a side by side test!!!
He has The Marantz DV 9600 Universal player, and I believe the Rotel 1098 pre/pro, The 1072 by Rotel CD player.
His room is * meters by 5 meters and has great accoustics with lots of furniture.. That is all I know so far!!
He wants EXTRA dynamics and lots of clear smooth detail and likes HT and Jazz music with some up rock and pop when he has friends over.
Cheers!!

[ShadowZA]

Chinets ... I hope that this can be construed as being helpful ...
I'm a Krell amp fan. That's it.

[chinets]

Shadow ZA,
Nice to hear from you again my friend. Hope you and the family are all well.
Yes, I know you are a Krell fan, like I am ,but I have Mono blocks ,so I really have No idea about the TAS at all.
My friends room is 8 meters by 5 meters. It showed up as an * before. Guess I pressed the wrong key.
Anyway, If anyone could help this good friend of mine , I will very much appreciate your kind help.
I know that classe is warmer and has less bass, However, I know Krell that has super power and lots of Bass and Dynamics. My firend has 2 subs so I guess one could cancel the Krell bass effect..I think??!! I have heard the TAS before, but not the Classe 5200 ,so I can't decide on his behalf ,so that is why I am asking all you guys out there for some help for this friend of mine ,that can't test either amp at any dealer.
Krell IMHO has more juice and dynamics, but the Classe they say is warmer ,but with good dynamics too!! They both cost the same ,that is why he needs a push and some help guys!!
Cheers and thanks!!

[hifiguymi]

I'll throw in my two cents and say the Classe. I've listened to both amps on 804's, 803's and 802's (both the Nautilus and current series) and the Classe is much smoother to my ears. The Krell KAV series has a lower treble / upper midrange grain that wears me down after a half and hour or so. The Classe is free of that and has better pace. Krell amps sound like they have more bass, but it seems to slow the music down.

As always it's a matter of opinion, but that is mine.

Eric

[Karma]

HI Eric,
I have the Krell KAV 3250 powering my 805S based HT system. I hear no grain at all. My reference is my main music system which is ARC tube based and grain free but with excellent high frequencies. I am very sensitive to grain which is why I have been using tube electronics for over 20 years. Yet, the KAV 3250 has none as far as I can tell.

Why are we hearing different things?

Sparky

[hifiguymi]

HI Eric,
I have the Krell KAV 3250 powering my 805S based HT system. I hear no grain at all. My reference is my main music system which is ARC tube based and grain free but with excellent high frequencies. I am very sensitive to grain which is why I have been using tube electronics for over 20 years. Yet, the KAV 3250 has none as far as I can tell.

Why are we hearing different things?

Sparky

It very well is your preamp. I don't know that preamp so I'm not sure of it's characteristics. I've heard the Krell with an HTS, RSP-1068, and an SSP-600 and it was there with all three preamps.

Cables will have a big effect as well. I know the first rule here is not to talk about cables ("The first rule of Fight Club is - you do not talk about Fight Club.") but they do have an effect on the sound of a system.

Eric

[Karma]

HI eric,
So are you saying that the KAV 3250 is not responsible for the grain you heard? That it may have been the preamps you heard it paired with? It certainly could be. Most SS stuff in my experience is grainy. That's why I felt I must try to unravel your rather no compromise statement about the Krell's. Or perhaps the grain lies further up the front end chain?

BTW, I'm using the Krell KAV 280P pre with the 3250. The sound I hear is simply honest and uncolored; smooth but with all the dynamics , detail, and bite one could ask for when it is demanded by the program. My CD program source is a California Audio Labs Sigma II tube DAC. My cables, both speaker and interconnects, are self-designed and home made and, please believe me, excellent. Identical versions are used in my main system which will uncover any hint of grain or loss of resolution. My room is treated but not over damped.

Sparky

[Sithlord]

I own the Krell TAS powering 5 M&K S-5000THX speakers and simply love the effortless power being delivered. The sound on my system is very crisp and clear and I formally owned a Rotel 1095 amp and the Krell was a big step up imo.

[RebelMan]

I have the Krell KAV 3250 powering my 805S based HT system. I hear no grain at all.

Why are we hearing different things?

Did you remember to remove your ear plugs? LOL :rofl:

Sorry Sparky, I couldn't resist. The temptation was too great. Of course I am just messin wit ya. :T

[chinets]

So guys,


Would you recommend the Krell TAS ,or that Classe 5200 for ALL your ears out there,or have heard both of these cool Amps????

Curious minds here really want to know?? Which is Better?? Can we have a vote??

Thanks guys,

Cheers!!

[hifiguymi]

HI eric,
So are you saying that the KAV 3250 is not responsible for the grain you heard? That it may have been the preamps you heard it paired with? It certainly could be. Most SS stuff in my experience is grainy. That's why I felt I must try to unravel your rather no compromise statement about the Krell's. Or perhaps the grain lies further up the front end chain?

BTW, I'm using the Krell KAV 280P pre with the 3250. The sound I hear is simply honest and uncolored; smooth but with all the dynamics , detail, and bite one could ask for when it is demanded by the program. My CD program source is a California Audio Labs Sigma II tube DAC. My cables, both speaker and interconnects, are self-designed and home made and, please believe me, excellent. Identical versions are used in my main system which will uncover any hint of grain or loss of resolution. My room is treated but not over damped.

Sparky

I do think the TAS is part of it. To my ears all of the Krell KAV line has that same upper midrange grain. I hear it in the KAV400xi, the TAS, the HTS, and the KAV2250 (and the KAV3250). Everybody has different likes and dislikes and we all hear a little different. I'm not the only person I know that has the same opinion on the KAV line from Krell. I'm not bashing it, I'm just saying that is what I hear when I listen to it.

Eric

[Karma]

Did you remember to remove your ear plugs? LOL :rofl:

Sorry Sparky, I couldn't resist. The temptation was too great. Of course I am just messin wit ya. :T

HI Reb,
Good to hear from you again. Ear Plugs??? Oh yeah. Actually my ear wax has welded them into my ears. It's going to require major surgery for removal. I expect my high frequencies to improve a bit. Otherwise they will migrate into my brain. Then.........madness.....

Sometimes I forget they are there. 8)

Sparky

[Karma]

I do think the TAS is part of it. To my ears all of the Krell KAV line has that same upper midrange grain. I hear it in the KAV400xi, the TAS, the HTS, and the KAV2250 (and the KAV3250). Everybody has different likes and dislikes and we all hear a little different. I'm not the only person I know that has the same opinion on the KAV line from Krell. I'm not bashing it, I'm just saying that is what I hear when I listen to it.

Eric

Hi Eric,
It is an ongoing interest of mine how different people, all good listeners, can come to such divergent views. I've found that it is often caused by different understanding of the terminology. For example, the term grain has no standardized definition. When you say grain you may mean something different than when I say grain.

My Audio Research amps are a case in point. I have had friends who accuse my ARC equipment of being grainy. Upon careful examination, we found that grain was not the issue at all. Rather, the disagreement centered around resolution. My ARC amps are the most highly resolving amps I have ever heard. Nothing gets covered up. This adds up to a highly detailed sound. Some folks mistake this extreme resolution as grain when, in fact, it is simply in the program material.

A good recording presents the detail in a highly realistic way and the term grain never pops up. Other recordings (most, I'm afraid, especially digital recordings) have a degree of harshness that could be interpreted as grain. The fault is not with the amp in this case.

So, this leads one to making a choice between an amp that softens the resolution and makes more recordings sound decent, if not great, or one that is ruthless in its presentation but with a great recording can be breathtaking. I prefer the ruthless approach but I also see the justifiction for the former.

Consequently, I see Krell as being ruthless just as are my ARC components. Of that they are guilty but not of self-induced grain.

Sparky

[chinets]

Love your comments Mr. Sparky. Written with ALL your heart. I salute you Amigo for being so deatiled, maticulate and precise!! AND a Very WELL written review on the dreaded term" GRAIN"!!

Have a wonderful day!!

[ShadowZA]

Sparky, I concur with what you mention. There is one part of the system that in probably the most vital - and that is the source material imho.

Maybe it's a bit of a catch 22. What if you like a particular artist or genre and all that exists are poor recordings? I believe that there is no one single answer to this. Neither is there a right or wrong. We need to simply gain information and then try to maximize our decision-making outcomes when deciding on hardware out there.

My own path travelled tends toward finding well recorded pieces and then research/find/buy/have hardware which is capable of delivering these pieces to my ears in full and glorious detail. Spine tingling.

I love the path travelled as I do enjoying the pieces.

I've strayed off topic, but Chinets ... an idea is to send your friend a link to this page (or copy & paste to an e-mail) so that he can gain an understanding of the difficulty involved in helping him to decide. Of course it should also widen his knowledge and he may be encouraged to become a member too. Btw, the family & I are well recovered after a nasty bout of 'flu. The medicine = listening to many hours of pure music. Have had a lot of rain this winter. Best regards to you & your family too.


My vote still remains Krell.

[hifiguymi]

Sparky,

I've listened to various sources with the KAV line. I've listened to the DAC's in the HTS, Denon DVD Players like the DVD-3910 playing SACD's and DVD-A's as well as CD's, Classe CDP-202 and CDP-102's playing DVD-A's and CD's, Rotel RDV-1092 playing DVD-A's and CD's. I have also listened to various recordings as well. Things from gritty blues by Muddy Waters to very good recordings of jazz trios, hard rock like Mettalica and Alice In Chains to Appalachian from Edgar Meyer, Yo-Yo Ma, and Mark O'Connor. The KAV products all have a fatiguing grit and grain in the upper midrange / lower treble. I'll agree that the better the source and recording the less it was there, but is was always there.

Again I want to emphasize that I'm not trying to beat it up. I just don't like it for myself. Since it is different for everybody it will be tough to get a consensus on which amp chinets' friend might like.

Eric

[Karma]

HI Eric,
WOW! That's quite a line up of demo equipment. Why all the interest in Krell when you OBVIOUSLY prefer other eqiupment?

BTW, none of that front end stuff qualifies as first rate. I know about the Denon 3910 because I have one in my HT system. The music leg of that same system uses the Denon 3910's coax PCM output to drive the Cal Audio Sigma tube converter whose signal is delivered directly into the Krell KAV 280P preamp then to the 3250 amp. Much better with the tube converter.

We must agree to disagree.

Sparky

[hifiguymi]

Sparky,

I'm a retailer. I used to sell Krell as my premier line and now I sell Classe. I also sell Rotel, Denon, B&W, and Paradigm (and others) that is how I've listened to so many combonations.

The Classe CDP-202, and even the CDP-102, I would condiser a first rate source. The CDP-202 is pretty spectacular!!

And yes, we must agree to disagree. That is why there are so many choices out there.

Eric

[Karma]

Sparky,

I'm a retailer. I used to sell Krell as my premier line and now I sell Classe.....
And yes, we must agree to disagree. That is why there are so many choices out there.

Eric

HI Eric,
Ah, the picture becomes clearer. In my opinion you should recuse yourself from this thread. We, as ordinary consumers, cannot separate your opinion from business motives. I'm not accusing you of dishonesty. I'm only saying that your motives cannot be clearly determined.

I, for one, will not give your views serious consideration under these circumstances. Is this fair? Maybe, maybe not. I don't care. All I know is I invested my money strictly based upon my audio sensibilities. You? I don't know. Clearly, a conflict of interests could be at work here.

Sparky

[hifiguymi]

Sparky,

Performance was the reason for the change in my store to Classe. Nothing else. I've been in the business for 15 years and have been a high performance enthusiast much longer than that. I have sold a lot of different brands during that 15 years and currently own Meridian even though I haven't sold it for six or seven years. For me, it's all about performance not what brands I sell.

I have no stake what so ever in what amp chinets' friend purchases. I offer my input here as an enthusiast, not as a retailer. I'm sorry you don't see it that way.

Eric

[RebelMan]

Chinets, Shadow makes a good point about the difficulties involved in offering suggestions between competing brands at this level. As this thread clearly shows there is a division between peoples preference for Krell and Classe' but I am sure I can speak for all of us that both are well admired. While I haven't been exposed to Krell to the same extent that either Sparky or Eric have, I have gained enough experience with it over the years to formulate an opinion that closely mimics Eric's.

It was only by first hand exposure that I was able to make a decision and be content. Asking us to tell you what your friend should do is not going to be very helpful in this case and it is unlikely that a consensus would either. Given that your friend is 50/50 A/V doesn't help the situation as I would likely lean towards a Krell system for movie watching and a Classe' system for music listening.

Regardless of which amplifier your friend chooses, the front-end is going to command the sound quality that you hear. If he plans to use the Rotel RSP-1098 then the Classe' will most like be a better fit overall. The RSP-1098 is a bit shrill and clinical to start with which the Krell would accentuate.

[Karma]

HI Reb,
Yes, I agree that Krell and Rotel is a poor match. I am not a fan of using amplifiers as mitigators. Better to find a source that really allows the amp to shine rather than compensate.

Sparky

Edited to Add:

Reb, I am not and have not compared Krell and Classe in this thread. I think they are both great products with slightly different strengths and, thus appeals. I have been trying to sort out Eric's comments about grain which I don't hear. I have not resorted to quoting reviews and depended only on my own listening impressions. Had I referred to the reviews, I could have strengthened my case because the Krell KAV series has had nothing but rave reviews. Never a mention of grain. Krell amps may be ruthless but they are honest. That is what I ask for in an amp.

[Charles]

I spent several hours last year demoing the KAV-3250/400xi vs the Classe 5200 on B&W 803S speakers. This was one tough demo since I would have been thrilled with either and they were the same price. I heard slightly more detail with the Krell which I really keyed on and it just sounded a bit more live to me. The Classe with it's warmth made it a little easier to listen to, but I feel the warmth sacrificed some detail. Since I'm 50/50 music to home theater, the added base of the Krell I felt would add more feel to movies and music with the 803's 2 woofers.

I don't use a sub for music so this made me lean even more towards Krell. If I had diamonds with their larger or higher number of woofers my decision may have leaned the other way especially if they brought out more of the detail I was missing. Both are #1 amps and I'm sure he would be happy with either one. Certain freq ranges are harsh for some and pleasant to others thus more manufacturers.

[RebelMan]

I think they are both great products with slightly different strengths and, thus appeals. I have been trying to sort out Eric's comments about grain which I don't hear.
...

Krell amps may be ruthless but they are honest. That is what I ask for in an amp.

You'll have no argument from me, Krell is unforgivingly revealing which I think is too often misconstrued for detail. Grain is simply a roughness around instrumental timbres. Frequently, as you also noted, SS equipment exaggerates detail giving transients a graining or etched character. This unpleasant hardness or emphasis on transient signals manifests itself in listener fatigue which some people are more sensitive to than others.

Like Eric, I can only consume small doses of Krell's resolve before I have to evacuate the room or turn the volume down. Classe', on the other hand, has had the opposite effect on me. Like the Energizer Bunny I can keep going and going and going...

Sparky, consider yourself fortunate that you don't hear the aggressiveness come through in your music. No one is disputing that you have a fine system.

[Karma]

HI Reb,
I don't want to let your misunderstanding of what I mean go uncommented. Resolution in it's best form is not unreal. Rather, it is honest reporting. That is the character of Krell's sound. It is not exagerated unlike much other SS equipment which I really don't like at all. That much recorded material can not stand up to the scrutiny of such honesty is not the fault of the amps. This is the main reason I listen to analog sources in my main system 90% of the time. The other reason is I over 4000 very fine analog recordings and only about 600 CD's.

I don't want to start another unending analog vs. digital debate. I enjoy the sound of my CD's. I just wanted to point out that I do not ask an amplifier to compensate for short comings in the source material.

Please do try to not put words into my mouth.

Thanks, Sparky

[Andrew M Ward]

HI Reb,
I don't want to let your misunderstanding of what I mean go uncommented. Resolution in it's best form is not unreal. Rather, it is honest reporting. That is the character of Krell's sound. It is not exagerated unlike much other SS equipment which I really don't like at all. That much recorded material can not stand up to the scrutiny of such honesty is not the fault of the amps. This is the main reason I listen to analog sources in my main system 90% of the time. The other reason is I over 4000 very fine analog recordings and only about 600 CD's.

I don't want to start another unending analog vs. digital debate. I enjoy the sound of my CD's. I just wanted to point out that I do not ask an amplifier to compensate for short comings in the source material.

Please do try to not put words into my mouth.

Thanks, Sparky

You're very convinced that Krell amplifiers are "the real deal" have you ever done a complete sweep on a Krell amp and examined it's accuracy...?

just asking, not carpet bombing

[Karma]

HI Andrew,
I'm not sure I understand your question. What do you mean by a "complete sweep"? Are you referring to a spectrum analysis or frequency response or power spectrum or harmonic distortion anlysis or cleaning the chassis with a whisk broom?

If you could clarify your question I miight be able to answer. But if your question involves only test results from test equipment then the answer is yes but not routinely on my own equipment. I used to run a hi fi repair shop where I had (and still have) some of the finest test equipment you could buy. All Tektronix. I could and did conduct all the above tests but only in the context of repair.

When it comes to sonic evaluation my best test equipment are my ears which is how I made my final evaluations of thousands of amplifiers. I really don't pay much attention to published specs. It's not that I don't think specs are important, it's just that at todays state of the art, correlating sound quality (what we hear) to specs is very tricky and usually not fruitful. So, with my personal equipment I don't bother unless a real repair is needed. Then, of course, I want to make sure the equipment at least meets its published specifications. That's how the manufacturer does it and that is the standard that must be confirmed.

Sparky

[Andrew M Ward]

HI Andrew,
I'm not sure I understand your question. What do you mean by a "complete sweep"? Are you referring to a spectrum analysis or frequency response or power spectrum or harmonic distortion anlysis or cleaning the chassis with a whisk broom?

If you could clarify your question I miight be able to answer. But if your question involves only test results from test equipment then the answer is yes but not routinely on my own equipment. I used to run a hi fi repair shop where I had (and still have) some of the finest test equipment you could buy. All Tektronix. I could and did conduct all the above tests but only in the context of repair.

When it comes to sonic evaluation my best test equipment are my ears which is how I made my final evaluations of thousands of amplifiers. I really don't pay much attention to published specs. It's not that I don't think specs are important, it's just that at todays state of the art, correlating sound quality (what we hear) to specs is very tricky and usually not fruitful. So, with my personal equipment I don't bother unless a real repair is needed. Then, of course, I want to make sure the equipment at least meets its published specifications. That's how the manufacturer does it and that is the standard that must be confirmed.

Sparky

Mostly Frequency response... across the entire spectrum - it's an eye opener... 8O

[RebelMan]

I don't want to let your misunderstanding of what I mean go uncommented.

I understood your point. My comments were directed towards your bewilderment of grain in Eric's feedback. I agree it all starts with the source. I also agree that our equipment should represent the truth when telling the story. I just don't need it read back in bold lettering.

The analog versus digital debate would be short lived. Like you I have an affinity for both. Like the world we live in I have moved on. Your recent acquisition of an iPod demonstrates your willingness to yield to the current state of the times too, warts and all. Welcome aboard Sparky! :T

[Karma]

Mostly Frequency response... across the entire spectrum - it's an eye opener... 8O

HI Andrew,
Please, don't tease us. What have you found and what is your source? I really don't know what you are talking about.

Reb,
I was very surprised how good the iPod Nano sounded with lossless formats. I guess I was expecting boom box sound but the quality is quite good and much better than my mass market expectations. I think Apple really did their homework. That's a relief. These little gadgets may actually bring new young people into the hi fi community rather than driving them away.

Sparky