The State of Modern Record and Gear Technology-A Personal View

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  • Karma
    Senior Member
    • Nov 2005
    • 801

    The State of Modern Record and Gear Technology-A Personal View

    Note: I first posted this little personal view as a part of a different thread. I decided that it might offer an opportunity for some good discussion. So, I decided to make a thread out of it for a larger audience.

    The Post:
    Yes, it does seem that the prices of analog reproduction have gone through the roof. Let's take a closer look. Lets see if that perception is true. I guess the question is whether any part of this inflation has resulted in better equipment, software and, thus, sound? I think the answer is yes by a substantial margin. While the prices can be high I believe we are living in the Golden Age of Vinyl. Right now!

    Really, let us remember with wide open eyes. Remember back in the good old days when record stores were stuffed with dreck much like the CD stores of today? Remember the beloved Duals and other such changers and poorly engineered tone arms and cartridges that ate records for diner and sounded even worse? I think the equipment at every level has improved over the similarly priced older counterparts when normal economic inflation is taken into consideration. Good to great analog equipment, the equipment that did sound good, has always been expensive and folks have always complained about it. Bringing advanced technology into the analog world has, I believe, made the stuff significantly better and only provisionally more expensive.

    No doubt, at the highest of the high end the price of admission is astronomical. Such as it has always been. Modern analog sound is terrific, better than ever, IMO. It is worth the price? For me, yes but I can't and won't go for the highest of the high. That's a rich man's game. What's left, the stuff I can afford with a little sacrifice, is wonderful.

    Remember the average pressings from Columbia and others that could have passed for noise generators? Remember the warps and wows? Remember the paper liners that cut the vinyl like steel wool (only a slight exaggeration)? And the off center holes? And the bad engineering? Things were not even close to perfect back then.

    Now, we pay more (provisionally) and have fewer choices (tears) but the choices are better (joy), IMO. Many of the new pressings of analog re-releases are far better than the originals. Of course, we must also consider the music, much of which has not seen the light of day on CD's. They are not cheap but usually not terribly more than their CD counterparts. I mourn the lack of broad choices but there is still enough to keep us busy and astonished. Those of us who did not ditch our prized record collections under the weight of the digital onslaught are in heaven.

    Shall we speak of the bargains that are available in the used record stores? In this case our choices are as broad as ever but older which is not necessarily bad. Plus, we can examine the records and reject those that obviously bad or return them if they prove to be terrible after we get them home. If you can't, find a better used dealer. Shall we consider the common availability of good and inexpensive record washing machines that can bring these used gems back to their original state? Analog things are not bleak. It is quite possible to build a wonderful record collection right now for very attractive prices. And the situation continues to get better.

    Last, analog continues to be a fun and rewarding activity. And, as always, the music and sound reigns supreme. Are there any other valid reasons to do be involved in hi fi?

    You may call me a Pollyanna. I'll confess to that if I must.

    But, am I wrong?

    Sparky
  • Alaric
    Ultra Senior Member
    • Jan 2006
    • 4143

    #2
    Great post , Sparky! I can't confirm how bad the Dual TTs were , but I was pretty pleased with my Yamaha PX-2 Linear Tracking TT. I had a Klipsch(!) ruby cantilever cartridge and a now forgotten brand diamond stylus. I also remember off-center album holes. I believe Nakamichi had a Dragon TT with an alignment arm for those issues. It was the Yamaha that introduced me to MoFi , and I've still not heard a digital production of any Led Zeppelin music that comes close to my MoFi half-speed master of LedZep II. I prefer that record on a crappy TT over my CDs. Also have some well pressed Beatles,Heart,and the Animals.
    On the SQ of vinyl-my favorite example is the Mobile Fidelity half-speed master of Jethro Tull's Aqualung. That "electric cricket" chirping that shows up in Locomotive Breath sat about 3 feet from the speakers.With my previous stereo I could move up next to the speaker and it would disappear! Back off a couple feet and it was again audible. I just can't get that type of soundstage with CDs. I will admit , my current setup isn't on par with my first ,as far as the technology of the day, but my CD player is "decent" and the rest isn't low-end. (ain't high-end either!) My Madman Across The Water album still sounds better than the same SACD on the same stereo with a cheap TT.(REAL cheap)
    Well , I don't want to make anyone :Z so I'll get to my question. Do you think there is a TT out there for under $1000 (w/cartridge) that is worthwhile? I've been thinking Music Hall or Rega.If I go for a Music Hall I would probably start saving for a tonearm upgrade so tonearm imperfection isn't a deal-breaker.
    Lee

    Marantz PM7200-RIP
    Marantz PM-KI Pearl
    Schiit Modi 3
    Marantz CD5005
    Paradigm Studio 60 v.3

    Comment

    • draganm
      Senior Member
      • Jul 2005
      • 299

      #3
      Originally posted by Karma
      Really, let us remember with wide open eyes. Remember back in the good old days when record stores were stuffed with dreck much like the CD stores of today? Remember the beloved Duals and other such changers and poorly engineered tone arms and cartridges that ate records for diner and sounded even worse? I think the equipment at every level has improved over the similarly priced older counterparts when normal economic inflation is taken into consideration. While the prices can be high I believe we are living in the Golden Age of Vinyl. Right now!
      Absofukinlutley! there has never been a better time to get into vinyl. :B Putting aside all the problems with pivoted arms aside :W, there are some awesome choices out there for real-world money. As you pinted out, if you adjust for inflation the cost of a Nice TT with good cart and phono pre is on par with what you would have paid for a Pioneer reciever and cheapo plastic TT 20 years ago. 8O

      Originally posted by Karma
      No doubt, at the highest of the high end the price of admission is astronomical. Such as it has always been. Modern analog sound is terrific, better than ever, IMO. It is worth the price? For me, yes but I can't and won't go for the highest of the high. That's a rich man's game. What's left, the stuff I can afford with a little sacrifice, is wonderful.Remember the average pressings from Columbia and others that could have passed for noise generators? Remember the warps and wows?
      You may call me a Pollyanna. I'll confess to that if I must.
      But, am I wrong?
      Sparky
      I totally agree, I have bought a few brand new records recently and it feels like your getting ripped when you shell out $30. for a record. However I have NEVER felt that way after peeling the plastic off and listening to my new black gold. The new vinyl being pressed now is just unbelieveable. I just bought Mark Knopfler and Emmylou Harris on their duet album called All the Road Running on Warner Bros.label. WOW, it's one of the most beautiful albums I have ever heard and worth every penny. The quality of the vinly alone was amazing, even the lead-in groove was dead quiet. Basically, all the new stuff mastered by Steve Hofman and Stan Ricker is just a must have. All the stuff mentioned so far is available brand new= Hendrix, Zeppelin, dire Straits, Yes, Jethro tull, etc. In very few exceptions will I pay a mint for used vinyl on e-bay. the new stuff is so much better.

      Originally posted by Alaric
      Do you think there is a TT out there for under $1000 (w/cartridge) that is worthwhile? I've been thinking Music Hall or Rega.If I go for a Music Hall I would probably start saving for a tonearm upgrade so tonearm imperfection isn't a deal-breaker.
      that's easy, for $1K I would go for a Music Hall MMF7 and pair it with a Bellari tube phono-pre. The arm isn't bad by any means, on par with a stock RB250. It comes with an ecxellent cart. and the plinth and motor will be much better than a P3. the Bellari is also a steal at $200., rated class A be stereophile and sharing the list with phono-pre's costing $2K and up.
      the nest step up from here is the VPI Scout at $1500. for just table and arm.

      Comment

      • George Bellefontaine
        Moderator Emeritus
        • Jan 2001
        • 7637

        #4
        I haven't tried any of the new vinyl pressings, but that Knopfler/Harris album sounds like a winner.
        My Homepage!

        Comment

        • twitch54
          Senior Member
          • Apr 2006
          • 340

          #5
          Hey Sparky, good evening, yes your post has me reflect back on my 45 plus years in analog heaven, and I too believe the "Golden Years" are at present ! For me it's because my kids are grown , educated and gone and I finally have a few extra $$ so as to induldge in my habit !!

          I have actually begun to 'cull' my record collection, donating to the Goodwill, I'm now done to under a thousand LP's, but they are my cherished and sonic worthy ones !

          Again as others have said for those wishing to enter or 're-enter' the scene there is some very sonically satisfiying stuff available today at affordable prices.

          BTW, I noticed another Aesthetix Rhea phono-pre on the Gon today, the owner said he had returned to the factory for "noise" problems ??
          Dave

          Comment

          • spyboy
            Senior Member
            • Jun 2005
            • 118

            #6
            All the Road Running is great, especially on DVD.

            Comment

            • Alaric
              Ultra Senior Member
              • Jan 2006
              • 4143

              #7
              Thanks guys. If the IRS doesn't disagree with my version of last year's income , I'll be pulling the trigger soon. The mmf-7 and Bellaria combo seems to be (best Cartman voice) thweeeet . Unfortunately , the cost of vinyl cleaning gear + that combo + cables = more than I have to spend. If I go for the mmf-5 I can acquire the cleaning gear and CAT Cables for my tuner. Downside is the captive cables on the TT don't allow for easy CAT conversion. Decisions , decisions....
              Lee

              Marantz PM7200-RIP
              Marantz PM-KI Pearl
              Schiit Modi 3
              Marantz CD5005
              Paradigm Studio 60 v.3

              Comment

              • Bob
                Senior Member
                • Jul 2000
                • 802

                #8
                New vinyl can be pricey. Although, some labels go for $10.99 (see Acoustic Sounds). One way to justify the cost is that, when properly stored and maintained, records will last your lifetime. So far, in film and in music, nobody has solved how to store data for long periods. I know in film, the studios only trust digital data to be stored for 10 years before it is corrupted. I'm guessing it is no different for music.

                Comment

                • draganm
                  Senior Member
                  • Jul 2005
                  • 299

                  #9
                  Originally posted by Alaric
                  Thanks guys. If the IRS doesn't disagree with my version of last year's income , I'll be pulling the trigger soon. The mmf-7 and Bellaria combo seems to be (best Cartman voice) thweeeet . Unfortunately , the cost of vinyl cleaning gear + that combo + cables = more than I have to spend. If I go for the mmf-5 I can acquire the cleaning gear and CAT Cables for my tuner. Downside is the captive cables on the TT don't allow for easy CAT conversion. Decisions , decisions....
                  FWIW,My advice is delay some of the other stuff and get the MM-7 now. I have not tried CAT cables but they look like good stuf and their basic analog IC is only $70. for a .5 meter. also, all you need is a $100. disc doctor kit for now, everytrhing else can wait.
                  Here are 2 major differences between the MMF-5 and MMF-7

                  1) the MMF5 you will be stuck with the factory IC and it looks exactly like the IC's from Radio shack = not good. cheesy vinly jacket and gold plated Brass conectors is not what you want coming from the toneram. the MMF-7 has RCA jacks in the back to allow you to use any IC you want
                  2) the MMF-7 has a much better toneram, capable of handling a moving coil cartridge which it comes with stock. The MMF-5 ARM is OK, equal to a stock RB250 but only good for a normal MM cart.
                  I think those 2 are the major diff's but there are many other like plastic feet VS. spiked feet, isolated rim drive platter vs. small plastic sub-platter, acrylic plinth vs. glass, piano black vs. wrinkle finish MDF, etc. If you have to, postpone the Bellari and use the built-in phono input in your receiver for now. there's a nice MMF-7 on audiogon for $900. from Walter Liederman who is a super guy. It should come with the factory warranty and my first choice for less than $1k.

                  Last edited by draganm; 01 April 2007, 23:15 Sunday.

                  Comment

                  • Alaric
                    Ultra Senior Member
                    • Jan 2006
                    • 4143

                    #10
                    Hey , dragnm

                    Yup , I saw that. I would need a good phono amp with a MC cartridge , though. My amp only has a MM input. Also , I need 1 meter cables and I'm real fond of the Silvercats. With the mmf-7 I would need a phono amp . If all goes well , (future ex-wife notwithstanding) I would love the mmf-7 and Bellari. I may be able to pull it off still , but , I need to have a plan B ready 'cuz I can't stand staring at a Sony POS I can't use. :M I have a pre 'Apple' Beatles White Album (among others) that I would like to hear while I can still remember how to queue up an LP! I appreciate Doug has some amazingly low priced cables , but I am a Silvercat fan.
                    Having made my excuses , what do you think of the mmf-5SE? ( not up for consideration if the 7 is still available when the $ show up.) Non-captive RCAs and a better MM cartridge than the mmf-5.
                    Lee

                    Marantz PM7200-RIP
                    Marantz PM-KI Pearl
                    Schiit Modi 3
                    Marantz CD5005
                    Paradigm Studio 60 v.3

                    Comment

                    • twitch54
                      Senior Member
                      • Apr 2006
                      • 340

                      #11
                      heed draganm's advice !! buying a mmf-5 just to extra $$ for a decent vacum cleaning set-up makes no sense. The Alsop cleaning system could even get you buy in the meantime.
                      Dave

                      Comment

                      • Alaric
                        Ultra Senior Member
                        • Jan 2006
                        • 4143

                        #12
                        I haven't budgeted more than $100 for vinyl cleaning gear , but I'm still up to 2 sets of ICs needed (3 with the Bellari) . I agree completely with dragnm's advice , I'm just trying to figure out how to make it economic reality. If I get the mmf-7 and can't afford the phono amp I'll be right where I am now-minus $1000. :cry:
                        Lee

                        Marantz PM7200-RIP
                        Marantz PM-KI Pearl
                        Schiit Modi 3
                        Marantz CD5005
                        Paradigm Studio 60 v.3

                        Comment

                        • draganm
                          Senior Member
                          • Jul 2005
                          • 299

                          #13
                          Originally posted by Alaric
                          Yup , I saw that. I would need a good phono amp with a MC cartridge , though. My amp only has a MM input
                          nope, the Goldring eroica MC cart comes in 2 different models. The standard Eroica H is high output MC, meaning it is designed to work with normal MM phono pre-amps. the MM-7 designers were aiming at a specific market and chose this cart specifically for people who wanted the most bang for the buck but didn't have $2K to spend. Now the other version is called the Eroica LX and it does require a phono pre with lots of gain, this is the cart on my LP12 and I have to use the MC setting on my musical fidelity pre, sounds absolutely wonderful BTW.
                          When I recomended the MM-7 and Bellari I had my thinking cap on .....no really. The Bellari is MM only but the Eroica H is one of few exceptions to the rule. You can read about both Erocia's here

                          You'll notice that the Erocia H has an output of 2.5 mv versus the MMF-5's 1042 cart which outputs 6.5 mv. Most MM's are around 5mv so 2.5mv is on the low side but it's typcial for the few high out MC cart's out there. the Benz Micro Ace Blue for $550. in another example. It just means you'll have to have the volume knob a little higher, not a big deal. You can always post about this combo in some place like the Audio Asylum and get some more feedback if you like. Basically, an MC cart is going to offer a level of detail and harmonics only only found in very high end MM carts IMO.
                          AFA the MMF-5 SE, well it looks really cool, nice finish and it's got the MMF-7's project 9 toneram on it but it's the same price as the MMF-7 from Walter so why bother?

                          Comment

                          • Alaric
                            Ultra Senior Member
                            • Jan 2006
                            • 4143

                            #14
                            "Aaahhh....I see" said the blind man I was considering the mmf-5SE in case my finances don't coincide with Walter still having the mmf-7 when (if?) my cash arrives. My budget isn't blessed with much wiggle room. :cry:
                            If I may , I'd like to ask a question: If the gain is low enough on the Eroica H to require a substantial increase in volume knob compensation , what will that do to the noise floor of my good , but budget , amp (PM7200)? If I have to turn it up loud enough to hear a bunch of noise it would tend to negate the additional investment. Not trying to be difficult , I just have to be very careful about where I put that kind of money . I'm trying to get the most for my limited cash and don't want to screw up due to ignorance.
                            I appreciate all the help you guys have given me already.Thanks. :T
                            Lee

                            Marantz PM7200-RIP
                            Marantz PM-KI Pearl
                            Schiit Modi 3
                            Marantz CD5005
                            Paradigm Studio 60 v.3

                            Comment

                            • twitch54
                              Senior Member
                              • Apr 2006
                              • 340

                              #15
                              Originally posted by Alaric
                              If the gain is low enough on the Eroica H to require a substantial increase in volume knob compensation , what will that do to the noise floor of my good , but budget , amp (PM7200)? T
                              Alaric, The output of the Eroica "H" is 2.5 mv, so I would suspect that it will match up fine with the MM gain stage of your phono pre in your reciever/amp.

                              I will plead ignorant, what is your preamp/ amp/ reciever ???
                              Dave

                              Comment

                              • Alaric
                                Ultra Senior Member
                                • Jan 2006
                                • 4143

                                #16
                                I'm using a Marantz PM7200 integrated with a built-in MM phono stage. I keep the "Class A" button in all the time (first 25 watts) but it is 95 WPC in A/B mode. My speakers are Paradigm Studio 60s .
                                I'm now considering getting the Bellari regardless of what TT I end up with after some research. In my little townhouse (1600 sq. ft.) my modest system positively slams my eardrums if I crank it up. Yesterday my new neighbor asked if I could turn down the subwoofer a little-don't have one in my 2 ch. ! Of course , I was listening to Kid Rock's 'Jackson,Mississippi' at a pretty fair level.
                                Anywho , I have always been fond of tubes , it's one of the qualities that led me to buy my amp-very "analogue" sound. I also have a few very good albums I'd like to hear again. It's been 20+ years since some of them felt a stylus . A good example is Led Zep's Song Remains The Same. I have two copies-one for regular 'abuse' and one that was only played on my previous stereo ( Yamaha PX-2 linear tracking TT and a stack of Tandberg. TT had a Klipsch (!) cartridge. Along with some Elvis and Animals and Jethro Tull and other LZ and Sabbath and Nugent and etc...
                                Lee

                                Marantz PM7200-RIP
                                Marantz PM-KI Pearl
                                Schiit Modi 3
                                Marantz CD5005
                                Paradigm Studio 60 v.3

                                Comment

                                • Alaric
                                  Ultra Senior Member
                                  • Jan 2006
                                  • 4143

                                  #17
                                  Had a short chat with "Todd The Vinyl Junkie" http://www.ttvj.com/index.php?main_page=index
                                  and was recommended to check out the Technics 1200 TT with a Shure 97xE cartridge. Given the inventory of TTVJ I appreciate the possibility that he may just be working within my budget. Seemed sincere though , and they seem to have a pretty decent selection of high-end gear. But a direct-drive TT? Also found a Bellari VP129 for $199.(Needle Doctor) Hmmmmmm...
                                  Lee

                                  Marantz PM7200-RIP
                                  Marantz PM-KI Pearl
                                  Schiit Modi 3
                                  Marantz CD5005
                                  Paradigm Studio 60 v.3

                                  Comment

                                  • Alaric
                                    Ultra Senior Member
                                    • Jan 2006
                                    • 4143

                                    #18
                                    Bought the Bellari VP129 for $199.Hopefully the TT hunt will go smoothly.
                                    Lee

                                    Marantz PM7200-RIP
                                    Marantz PM-KI Pearl
                                    Schiit Modi 3
                                    Marantz CD5005
                                    Paradigm Studio 60 v.3

                                    Comment

                                    • Karma
                                      Senior Member
                                      • Nov 2005
                                      • 801

                                      #19
                                      Originally posted by Alaric
                                      I have two copies-one for regular 'abuse' and one that was only played on my previous stereo ( Yamaha PX-2 linear tracking TT and a stack of Tandberg....
                                      HI Alaric,
                                      I fondly remember my Yamaha PX-2. At the time I thought it was a great turntable. I still do but I graduated to an Eminent Technology ET-2 air bearing arm. I still have the ET-2 mounted on a Sota Nova as my second turntable.

                                      I think the PX-2 is one of the really good used turntable buys out there. Why not get another one?

                                      Sparky

                                      Comment

                                      • draganm
                                        Senior Member
                                        • Jul 2005
                                        • 299

                                        #20
                                        Originally posted by Alaric
                                        Had a short chat with "Todd The Vinyl Junkie" http://www.ttvj.com/index.php?main_page=index
                                        and was recommended to check out the Technics 1200 TT with a Shure 97xE cartridge. ..
                                        you're not seriously contemplating a plastic turntable with 1.3lbs. of torque and an electronic brake are you? We're trying to play records here not weed-eat the yard :lol:


                                        Originally posted by Alaric
                                        It's been 20+ years since some of them felt a stylus . A good example is Led Zep's Song Remains The Same. I have two copies-one for regular 'abuse' and one that was only played on my previous stereo ( Yamaha PX-2 linear tracking TT and a stack of Tandberg. TT had a Klipsch (!) cartridge. Along with some Elvis and Animals and Jethro Tull and other LZ and Sabbath and Nugent and etc...
                                        sounds like you listen to the same music I do. AFA the Led Zeppelin stuff, I picked up a few re-issues from Classic Records. These are 180 gram vinyl that jimmy Page was actually involved in during re-mastering. They are all better than the original Atlantics but some are really incredible. Physical Graffiti and LZ-II are phenomenal, well worth $65. for the pair.

                                        Comment

                                        • Alaric
                                          Ultra Senior Member
                                          • Jan 2006
                                          • 4143

                                          #21
                                          you're not seriously contemplating a plastic turntable with 1.3lbs. of torque and an electronic brake are you? We're trying to play records here not weed-eat the yard
                                          Kind of what I thought. :roll: I was informed today that future ex-wife #2's car has failed to proceed. This may impact my budget. I was offered a Pro-ject RM5 for a decent price , but the Sumiko Blackbird cartridge suggested is a little pricey. Since I'm committed to the Bellari , what is the minimum MC output I should be looking at? Also , are the Shure cartridges worthwhile? This is driving me nuts and I don't even have the cash yet. :M If I hit the lottery I'm buying dragnm and twitch whatever TT they want-Transrotor , anyone?
                                          Karma , the only decent PX-2 I've found recently was $1200! Kinda steep for a TT that retailed new for $900. That was a pretty good table , though. At the rate I'm going I'll wind up looking for a Nakamichi ZX9 soon :rofl:
                                          Lee

                                          Marantz PM7200-RIP
                                          Marantz PM-KI Pearl
                                          Schiit Modi 3
                                          Marantz CD5005
                                          Paradigm Studio 60 v.3

                                          Comment

                                          • Alaric
                                            Ultra Senior Member
                                            • Jan 2006
                                            • 4143

                                            #22
                                            Just had a thought-maybe I can sell my speakers and amp and just use the Bellari headphone jack and the excellent headphone amp in my SA8260. Then I can get a good TT and a nice Sennheiser HD650. Hey , Doug-you make headphone cables?
                                            Lee

                                            Marantz PM7200-RIP
                                            Marantz PM-KI Pearl
                                            Schiit Modi 3
                                            Marantz CD5005
                                            Paradigm Studio 60 v.3

                                            Comment

                                            • fauzigarib
                                              Senior Member
                                              • Aug 2006
                                              • 216

                                              #23
                                              Lee,

                                              Sorry to hear that you're having so much trouble getting your head around all this stuff!

                                              I just recently got myself into analog / vinyl, and I finally see what all the fuss is about!

                                              I was about to start a different thread once I finally put down all my observations on paper, but I wanted to tell you that i just recently bought the 97xE from Shure... and it is a FANTASTIC piece of equipment. Check out a'gon's review on it. Or you can wait for mine!

                                              The only trouble that i had with this one (and remember, i'm still kinda new to this stuff) was that it was a little tough aligning the cartridge in the headshell. Other than that, I could not be happier with the result. So I think Todd the Vinyl Junky's suggestion might be a good one to get you started and smiling for a long time to come.


                                              Good luck, man...

                                              Sparky - Great thread! Since I'm really new to analog, I honestly can't say that I remember all the things that you were referring to. However, I will tell you this: All this time that I was enamored by my setup (the KHorns, if you remember, paired with the Mac integrated), I didn't know what I had been missing! For the past many many days I've been jotting down notes while spending hours at a stretch listening to my limited collection of vinyl and trying to put my thoughts into words, so I'll post more on that later.

                                              However, in a nutshell, even with my crappy TT with a decent cartridge that has yet to be setup properly... This is what this hobby is about!

                                              Later,

                                              Fauzi

                                              Comment

                                              • Alaric
                                                Ultra Senior Member
                                                • Jan 2006
                                                • 4143

                                                #24
                                                Thanks , Fauzi!

                                                You have KHorns and Mac gear? If ever there was a time machine for the heyday of vinyl-you've got it! 8) Thanks for the heads-up on the Shure cartridge. :T
                                                Lee

                                                Marantz PM7200-RIP
                                                Marantz PM-KI Pearl
                                                Schiit Modi 3
                                                Marantz CD5005
                                                Paradigm Studio 60 v.3

                                                Comment

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